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British Indian Restaurant Recipes - Main Dishes => British Indian Restaurant Recipes - Main Dishes => Dopiaza => Topic started by: Cory Ander on January 09, 2010, 01:53 AM

Title: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Cory Ander on January 09, 2010, 01:53 AM
This was original posted here (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4149.0) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4149.0by) by Achmal and moved to the Main Dish Recipes section by CA

Mick's/Taz's Curry Base Gravy can be found here:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4163.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4163.0)

Mick's/Taz's Mix Powder can be found here:  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4164.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4164.0)

Now to tell you about a curry Taz cooked for us in the curry shed,
I asked him to do a Chicken Tikka Dopiaza (Madras hot)
Taz always cooks in small woks, just his preference,

As previously stated this method is very different to what I have seen in kitchens and what I have read on here,

1./ Firstly over a medium heat, add pre-fried onion chunks, just seconds in a deep fryer,
2./ Add base gravy about 200 ml
3./ While it boils add chopped raw onions and chopped raw garlic
4./ Then add about a tablespoon of mix powder
5./ Add half a  teaspoon of salt

Now here is the crux for me, you now reduce the sauce, keep reducing until there is hardly any sauce left, the water will have gone and the oil in the base has come through, (hence the high level of oil in the base),
Whats left is frying well but not burning, some residue of the sauce will be browning on the side of the wok, this must be scraped down back into the mix,
Do this scraping down for a minute or so, You need to take the reducing further than you would think,

6./ Turn the heat down, This method proving you don't need huge burners Add more base, about another 200 ml, add the precooked meat then add the chilli powder to your taste
7./ Add coriander
8./ Add methi

Now reduce again over the lower heat, stirring occasionally until you reach your desired consistency,
Many of you would have thought as Graham and I did at the time that this method would have left a uncooked flour/spices texture in the curry , it certainly did when we tried to cook the same way but we realised we weren't letting the curry cook long enough, once we let the curry cook for longer, adding a little more base as required we cracked it,
It left us both standing there tasting the curry having one of those EUREKA moments, (without bathtubs)(and clothed) before anyone says anything..


I did say this was very different and I believe its not so much the recipes as the method he uses so I can't see why this would not work with other curry recipes ..

I have since asked Taz whether or not there is a point to adding the chilli powder with the second lot of gravy, he said it doesn't matter if the chilli goes in with the first reduction, it just shows the flexibility, as long as the curry is cooked out long enough,

This may not be the answer that many are looking for but if done correctly it does produce a cracking curry,

For information, for the amount of onion used,, Taz took 1 average sized onion and quartered it, 3 of the quarters were used for the deep fried onion chunks, the other quarter was finely chopped to go in with the first lot of gravy,

For this particular curry Taz did not add tomato paste, if you are using other curry recipes that use tomato paste then add it with the first lot of gravy,
Cheers

Mick
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza
Post by: Cory Ander on January 09, 2010, 02:05 AM
Reply by Josh:

Thanks for posting AchMal.

After playing with this for a while, I did have a few questions you might have already experimented with...

- why the chilli powder (and possibly the methi) isn't added with the original spice mix in the reduction stage
- why the tomato puree isn't added as part of the reduction, or added before the second base stage starts
- how the method could be applied to sweeter curries, like CTM and korma

Cheers,
Josh

Reply by Mikka:

Methi?
Did he grind it up into a powder please? I usually do.

(Other readers might want to grind up some Fenugreek seeds to acquire the toffee taste? Boy is that pungent).

Great post, thanks for sharing and you are one lucky person.
Did it equate in taste to what you get from the TA please?

Reply by Achmal:

Mikka,

Taz is a chef in a Takeaway, he says on average each curry would take about 10 minutes( a little longer than the method we all know)

He doesn't grind the methi,

What he produced at my home was the same that I get from his takeaway, I will admit this is not the taste of curries 30 years ago but up against some of the curries locally it is a winner,

Cheers,

Mick

Reply by Achmal:

Hi Josh,
I was aware of some of your questions,

I have since asked Taz whether or not there is a point to adding the chilli powder with the second lot of gravy, he said it doesn't matter if the chilli goes in with the first reduction, it just shows the flexibility, as long as the curry is cooked out long enough,


For this particular curry Taz did not add tomato paste, if you are using other curry recipes that use tomato paste then add it with the first lot of gravy,

Taz's CTM and korma are similar to other recipes in that its cream, sugar, coconut and almond powder and gravy with the meat and the whole lot is reduced down to the consistency required, the method of the first reduction doesn't come into play,

I hope I've made that clear enough ... :)

Cheers,
Mick

Reply by Josh:

Thanks Mick.

Very helpful.

-- Josh
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: 976bar on January 10, 2010, 12:40 PM
Hi Mick,

My only concern with the Dopiaza recipe and probably any other recipes cooked like this, is the addition of the pre-cooked meat, then cooking the curry out for such a long time after. You don't mention the time taken to cook the curry out but my guess is it's got to be 5 minutes plus to cook it out properly.

Doesn't this make the meat/chicken which is pre-cooked go tough?
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 10, 2010, 01:11 PM
Hi 976bar,

The pre-cooked chicken will probably be stone cold (well it should be!) so it is just warming up for 5-7 minutes in the final reduction.

I often add raw chicken at this stage when making the Taz recipes and simmer the finished curry until the chicken is cooked.

Paul.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: joshallen2k on January 10, 2010, 03:38 PM
Quote
I often add raw chicken at this stage when making the Taz recipes and simmer the finished curry until the chicken is cooked.

Hmmm. Good point. Obviously the TA's precook for efficiency reasons. When we do it at home, I've wondered if we are actually detracting from the taste/texture of the chicken when doing this. i.e. Do we really need to be copying this specific BIR practice?

CA's recent recipes got me into using fresh chicken.

But I'm not 100% sure if this would work well with the Taz method, as the second reduction is only 4-5 minutes long. I suppose you could reduce the heat even further and extend that out to ensure the chicken is cooked...
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 10, 2010, 03:57 PM
That's just what I do Josh. Often I'm faffing around doing other stuff so the finished curry has time to sit for a while before I serve it up.

I know we're trying to do BIR stuff but I'm not in as much of a hurry as a TA chef.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: 976bar on January 10, 2010, 04:19 PM
I have to say that I do like the look of that base, it looks more like the base that is used in my BIR, a sort of greenish colour rather than browny/orange.

I'm gonna give this base a go next week as I am nearly out of base :)
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Derek Dansak on January 12, 2010, 11:34 AM
This looks like a very interesting new line of enquiry ! however i am so dam close with the methods i already know, i feel it may be a step side ways to start with a whole new technique. i would love to hear how other members get on with this new technique. specifically how the taste differs to other techniques. good luck to anyone trying it out.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 12, 2010, 11:47 AM
Hi DD, I would recommend you try this base and method as it does give good results and is easy to prepare. I just made a korma with the base and it was spot on so it is very flexible. Can't say I like kormas but it tasted like I remember from tasting other people's kormas in restaurants, and the wife loved it.

I was skeptical at first as I though the base was too simple, there was too much cumin and too much turmeric but how wrong I was!


Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Derek Dansak on January 12, 2010, 01:24 PM
Hi PaulP, easy to prepare hey, thats always nice to hear! whats the basic madras or dopiaiza like? does it really taste like a real TA? If not , whats missing? Korma is not a good way to assess a base in my opinion. did you make a madras or dopiaza?  was it top notch?
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 12, 2010, 01:50 PM
Hi DD, I agree about the Korma not being a good test. Normally I make savoury madras type curries sometimes adding peppers and opions, sometimes not.

The Taz spice mix and base make a great combination. I can only recommend you try it - nothing to lose.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Cory Ander on January 12, 2010, 03:17 PM
Hi PaulP, easy to prepare hey, thats always nice to hear! whats the basic madras or dopiaiza like? does it really taste like a real TA? If not , whats missing? Korma is not a good way to assess a base in my opinion. did you make a madras or dopiaza?  was it top notch?

Hi DD,

I've used this technique to make a dopiaza (as specified) and a madras (me ad libbing).  I used the base and spice mix and technique as specified. 

I thought the base was OK but a little bland.

I thought the spice mix was much like Bruce Edward's and was OK (but nothing special)

I thought the curries were pretty good and I'm sure many people would be absolutely rapt with producing them.

However, does it get the more seasoned members closer to producing the taste of a typical BIR curry (particularly of yesteryear)?  Probably not (as Achmal readily professes).  But it produces simple, decent tasting BIR curries, nevertheless.

I think many members would be happy to consider this as their personal end point.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 12, 2010, 03:54 PM
Hi CA I agree the base is bland but would argue that maybe a base should be a little bland?

Anyway, your recipes are next for me - I would have tried sooner but had to send off for the cardamom powder. That bottle looks like something from a chemistry set!

I agree that for old timers like me the Taz recipes as they stand won't take you back to the 70s or 80s but I'm not sure anybody here has achieved that yet. I do think they are a welcome inclusion to cr0 and shouldn't be lightly overlooked.

I'll knock up your base recipe this weekend hopefully. You do post some of the clearest recipes on this web site and that makes the process so much easier to follow.

Paul.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Cory Ander on January 12, 2010, 04:38 PM
Hi CA I agree the base is bland but would argue that maybe a base should be a little bland?

Yes, perhaps.  But I STILL think all of our bases are missing something....... :P

Quote
That bottle looks like something from a chemistry set!

Bottle?   What bottle?  :-\

Quote
I'm not sure anybody here has achieved that yet. I do think they are a welcome inclusion to cr0 and shouldn't be lightly overlooked

I agree whole heartedly PaulP!  :)
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 12, 2010, 04:46 PM
The bottle I was referring to is a small plastic bottle containing the cardamon powder.

It is this one:

http://www.spicesofindia.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2espicesofindia%2eco%2euk%2f&WD=powder%20cardamom&SHOP=%20&PN=Indian%2dFood%2dNiharti%2dCardamom%2dGround%2dElaichi%2dPowder%2ehtml%23aISG022#aISG022 (http://www.spicesofindia.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2espicesofindia%2eco%2euk%2f&WD=powder%20cardamom&SHOP=%20&PN=Indian%2dFood%2dNiharti%2dCardamom%2dGround%2dElaichi%2dPowder%2ehtml%23aISG022#aISG022)

I must admit I do associate the flavour of cardamom with the good old days of curry eating so I'm hopeful about trying your recipes.

Paul.



Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Derek Dansak on January 12, 2010, 05:29 PM
Hi PaulP, easy to prepare hey, thats always nice to hear! whats the basic madras or dopiaiza like? does it really taste like a real TA? If not , whats missing? Korma is not a good way to assess a base in my opinion. did you make a madras or dopiaza?  was it top notch?

  But it produces simple, decent tasting BIR curries, nevertheless.

I think many members would be happy to consider this as their personal end point.

Hi CA, I would not like to guess what most members want to achieve. it amazes me how few actually dare post comments. I would have thought many members dont want 100 ways to produce a "not quite right" version of a TA. which is basically what we have now. although there are some exceptions that break this rule, if you search hard enough and try enough recipies from this site. 
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: joshallen2k on January 12, 2010, 07:58 PM
Quote
This looks like a very interesting new line of enquiry ! however i am so dam close with the methods i already know

DD - I'm always weary of straying from what is working, but that always eventually gets cancelled out by "can I improve?". This is definitely worth a go.

Quote
Yes, perhaps.  But I STILL think all of our bases are missing something......

CA - have you tried this method with your base and/or spice mix? Curious to know how that turns out.

Quote
Hi DD, I agree about the Korma not being a good test. Normally I make savoury madras type curries sometimes adding peppers and opions, sometimes not.

Actually this brings up a good point on the Taz base when it comes to versatility. The spice level is fine, no problems there. Its the oil level I had a slight issue with. Since no oil is added at the start, the curries rely on the oil in the base. I tend to use very little oil (using the "regular" method) for CTM and Korma, mainly due to the amount of cream used, plus they are difficult curries to skim at the end, if they end up oil-heavy. I did find the Korma and CTM I made to be on the oily side. You can see it most clearly in the KP Masala pics. This is likely my own doing though, as I believe I added 550ml of oil to the base, instead of the 450 as specified.


Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Cory Ander on January 13, 2010, 02:59 AM
I would have thought many members dont want 100 ways to produce a "not quite right" version of a TA.

Hi DD,

What I'm trying to say is that I think many members will feel that Mick's/Taz's recipes and method produce (for them) a "quite right" version of a (their) BIR.  How many times have you anyway heard members say "I tried this last night...it was spot on...brilliant...as good as...better than....my local takeway...any BIR" etc, etc?  Often, I think?

I'm sure you're also right in that other members will, nevertheless, still feel them lacking.  We all have different expectations and end points after all.

Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Cory Ander on January 13, 2010, 03:06 AM
CA - have you tried this method with your base and/or spice mix? Curious to know how that turns out

No, but I will, to see if the method results in anything significantly different by comparison
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Unclebuck on January 13, 2010, 07:11 AM
I've used this technique to make a dopiaza (as specified) and a madras (me ad libbing).  I used the base and spice mix and technique as specified. 

I thought the base was OK but a little bland.

I thought the spice mix was much like Bruce Edward's and was OK (but nothing special)

Spot on CA, my thoughts exactly, very similar to BE Curry's Ive made in the past, if id bought the curry i made i wouldn't be going back again, not to say it was awful just bland.

I'm not knocking Mick in anyway his efforts are outstanding and has my full respect, but i didn't think there where leaps in progress for me.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Cory Ander on January 13, 2010, 08:41 AM
Please don't get me wrong, though, UB.  This relatively simple base, relatively simple spice mix and relatively simple method still produces very nice curries...which just goes to show how keeping it simple can still be very effective, I suppose.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: matt3333 on January 14, 2010, 09:47 AM
Please don't get me wrong, though, UB.  This relatively simple base, relatively simple spice mix and relatively simple method still produces very nice curries...which just goes to show how keeping it simple can still be very effective, I suppose.

Interesting interpretation of a method used by a restaurant chef-

Relatively simple spice mix-
The Taz spice mix appears to be very similar to nearly every spice mix i've looked at predominantly Tumeric,Corriander,Cumin and Curry powder, indeed the first 3 ingredients make up 70% of Taz mix compared to 62% in yours and the ingredients are exactly the same as a mix from Secret Santa described as being direct from a restaurant.

Relatively simple base-
The base contains Onions, garlic,ginger,pepper,tomato,oil and spices again similar to nearly every other base I've looked at. Other bases may contain a few variations carrot,potato, and fresh corriander.
But basically not alot of difference.

Relatively simple method-
This to me is where the main difference from other techniques lies, spices are not cooked in hot oil at the beginning as in most techniques but added initally to the base.
As the base evaporates using high heat it thickens and the extra oil which the base contains starts to cook the spices in what i found to be a far more controlled way. This is not relatively simple and requires experience in evaporating the base sufficiently and gauging when the spices have released their flavours.
Beyond this stage the method becomes similar to other techniques.

As with most things it comes down to personal taste but I have produced some excellent curries with this technique.
I would suggest that the cooking technique could be used with any base and spice mix so anyone wanting a change from their current method why not give it a go.
Ramblings over ;)
Matt

Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on January 14, 2010, 01:16 PM
Hi Matt,

Yes it works very well for me too. It's not easy deciding when you have reduced enough and I'm still experimenting at this. I think if you failed to reduce enough and failed to do the "scrape backs" it probably would taste bland.

Since joining this forum I must admit I've only tried 2 bases, the SnS 2008 one which I've done to death and lately the Taz one.

The opinions of the people who taste my food including me give the Taz curries the edge over the SnS 2008 curries I produced.

Next base for me is CA's one which I hope to do this weekend.

Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Derek Dansak on January 14, 2010, 02:03 PM
Hi Ca, yes i see your point. I expect i am aiming a lot higher than most. I grew up in a family of cooks so i guess its in the blood. Although other family members always say to me " why dont you try some other types of cooking". I just stare blankly back at them looking puzzled !!

Josh And Ub and others, its interesting to hear how you guys have a totally different method to me. I have stuck with making plain bases with little oil, prefering to add heaps of oil at the final stage of making a curry. Recently i took this to a new level with an even plainer base (very similar to the real bir base i tried) and trippled up the spicing in the final curry. increasing the evaporation stage by 5 mins. fantastic results. not at all bland like so many cro curries i have tried.  I believe a very plain base is great for evaporation, and also shows up your mistakes more. This allows subsequent tweaks to recipies to be easier to gauge.  However i am sure every person needs to find the right method for them, and develop it incrementally. I cannot possibly imagine what CA,s UBs or Joshes curries taste like. Wish i could ! I can only compare mine to real TA,s, which is tough.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Secret Santa on January 14, 2010, 11:18 PM
I have stuck with making plain bases with little oil, prefering to add heaps of oil at the final stage of making a curry. Recently i took this to a new level with an even plainer base (very similar to the real bir base i tried) and trippled up the spicing in the final curry.

The logical continuation of this is that you reduce the base to boiled onions only and, while the BIRs may not do this, I see no reason not to take that route.

Quote
I believe a very plain base is great for evaporation, and also shows up your mistakes more. This allows subsequent tweaks to recipies to be easier to gauge.

Couldn't agree more! Which is why I tend to dislike bases with large amounts of tomato.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Derek Dansak on January 15, 2010, 10:28 AM
Hi Secret Santa, yes too much tomato is not good, i prefer to add that at the curry making stage, in the form of lots of tomato puree. Adding the tomato too early to base is also not good. i was genuinly shocked that the closest base i have made to the real bir base i once tasted was my most simple base. i left out the carrot, most of the typical spices. the texture of the final curry was spot on. It makes sense that bir would use very simple recipies for the base, as they make  so much of the dam stuff.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Derek Dansak on January 15, 2010, 11:03 AM
SS, i would disagree that an onion only base would work well (although it would work ) . i feel that salt garlic and and some tomato , and red pepper are essential to get the right undertone. The trouble with an onion only base would be adjusting the final recipe for all the missing garlic, tomato, . it could be done though. But then it would be traditional indian cookery!
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Paul1980 on February 09, 2010, 03:40 PM
Well said Matt333 and PaulP I couldn't agree more!!!
I was always under the impression BIR's and TA's would always keep their bases simple due to cost and time and add what spices needed when making individual curries.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Curry Barking Mad on February 10, 2010, 10:13 AM

Yes it works very well for me too. It's not easy deciding when you have reduced enough and I'm still experimenting at this. I think if you failed to reduce enough and failed to do the "scrape backs" it probably would taste bland.


This point is totally correct,
If this is not done correctly then the curry will not have the fully developed flavours,
If done correctly then the curry will most certainly not be bland, it may not be to everyones taste but it won't be bland,

Mick
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Paul1980 on April 20, 2010, 03:06 PM
Just thought I would post to say I have made 5 different types of curries with this base and method from A Korma to a Jalfrezi. Spot on every time.
Some more recipe's from Taz would be nice?
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Secret Santa on April 20, 2010, 05:28 PM
I've made a couple of curries with Taz's base and method too, and I have to say I noticed a definite lack of oomph that you get with the more standard frying spices method. For this reason it isn't a method I would personally continue with.

However I would definitely recommend this method to curry making novices as it is almost foolproof and avoids any possibility of burnt spices etc.

Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Paul1980 on April 21, 2010, 01:13 PM
If anyone is using this base at the moment try finely grating some onion into the first lot of base in stage 1 along with the garlic.
This seems to add something for me compared to previous efforts
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: PaulP on April 21, 2010, 07:35 PM
Taz base is still working well for me. I might at some stage drop the amount of oil in a base preparation and cook a curry in the "traditional" way to see if it tastes any better.

Paul.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: joshallen2k on April 22, 2010, 01:47 AM
I still use this method and really enjoy the results, especially for Vindaloo and Madras.

Mainly I've been trying different variations of spice mix, and add a few extra goodies (coriander, carrot) when making the base.

I do need to try Dipuraja's CTM, that's next up for me.
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Willyeckerslike on October 09, 2010, 05:40 PM
Well this has been on my "to do" list for quite a while.

I found this recipe very simple to do (I made it to spec) but I was not sure when to stop the reducing of the base.  I guess I got it right though ;D.  It turned out a really great  curry which suprised me in a way, as it was so easy to do ::)

Thanks Mick & Taz, I can't wait to try some others
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: vindapoo on May 31, 2013, 03:02 PM
apoligies for bumping an old thread but I am going to make this and wanted to check a couple things.

Everything I have read/seen says curry cooking process is oil > garlic ginger > methi > mix powder > the rest

This recipe kind of does it in reverse order, does it give a boiled rather than fryed taste ?
Title: Re: Mick's/Taz's Dopiaza (Madras Hot)
Post by: Salvador Dhali on May 31, 2013, 05:04 PM
apoligies for bumping an old thread but I am going to make this and wanted to check a couple things.

Everything I have read/seen says curry cooking process is oil > garlic ginger > methi > mix powder > the rest

This recipe kind of does it in reverse order, does it give a boiled rather than fryed taste ?

I find that you don't get a 'boiled' taste with the Taz base because there's so much oil in the base itself that gets released as you reduce it that it fries everything nicely.

The key to this base is that crucial first reduction. You're looking to reduce the first ladle of base right down to almost a paste before adding any more. (It's tempting to stop before the reduction has got to the right stage. I know the first time I tried it I pulled back a little too early, but you soon get the hang of it.)

Do let us know how you get on with it.