Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Peripatetic Phil on December 12, 2018, 08:52 PM
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I made my fourth curry in four days last night, and commented to my wife once we had eaten it that I thought I had finally "made it"
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I'd eat the sauce in preference to the kidneys no matter what Phil. ;D Even then I'd be hoping the kidney flavour hadn't passed into the sauce. I can't stand the things. I think we've been here before. ;) Still, I'm pleased for you.
On the other hand, you can never actually be "there", since no matter where you are it immediately becomes "here". ::)
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when your curry sauce is the best part of the dish, even better than the chicken, or the lamb, or whatever, then you are "there" !
I consider that a truism. The sauce is the curry and everything else is a guest at the party.
And I like kidneys but kidney curry certainly doesn't get me salivating. I ordered a steak at a gastro pub once and it arrived tasting of kidneys. I dare say they'd made a mixed grill in the same pan earlier and that's how the taste got transferred. It went straight back.
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On the other hand, you can never actually be "there", since no matter where you are it immediately becomes "here". ::)
Master Po would have been proud to have thought of that (if he had not already done so) !
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I realised my latest curry was 'there' once my wife put praise on it. She is highly critical of my cooking most of the time and merely gives a 'meh' to most of them.
But with my Rogan Josh she absolutely loves it and and is not afraid of telling me 8) in fact she has invited her best friend and husband around for a curry lunch in a few weeks to try my curry and naans. :-\
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Well done that man !
** Phil.
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When you invite your dinner guests to take some home and there is nothing left for yourself. ;D
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You know you're finally 'there' when you not only eat all the leftover sauce but eat the dish you served it in as well.
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When you can sell it, with repeat and regular customers. 8)
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Good point CT. That would certainly be the yardstick, only I have no intention of ever finding that out for myself.
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The sauce is the curry and everything else is a guest at the party.
that is so correct
and the secret is the curry base
which is like no base on this, or any other site
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and the secret is the curry base
which is like no base on this, or any other site
This is an extraordinary claim! Are you saying that you know a "secret"? Something that is not on this site or any other source of curry information.
I've begun the process of reading 800 posts, starting back in Christmas 2004, to see if I can find a hint as to when you found it and what the "secret" is. Nothing other than extra hours cooking and some aging so far.
Not March 2005!!! :) Still looking though.
On the plus side, I think the gravies we have are very close now.
It just needs a touch of..................?????????????????
Have you found something different since November 2005?
Thanks for all the info Mark
This really is the last piece of the puzzle
These methods really produce an excellent base with the sweet and savoury flavour we all know.
Everything is now on the site
I shall be keeping one base going forever now
Anything left over will be frozen and added to the new.
Apparently not. Jan 2006
I am beginning to think that it is impossible to recreate BIR curries unless you get an unrepeatable, lucky cooking moment.
That has happened to me several times, and I just don't know what went right
We jump to April 2017.
Because I'm still not totally satisfied with my results either
So if you now know the "secret", it is only a recent revelation. Please do share. :D
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Livo
Youd better read Haldi's posts too.
One and the same person I believe :)
Regards
Mick
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As much as I love Haldi's posts, this is just complete guff.
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Having read almost all of Pete's posts (and some related threads) yesterday, I am already aware that haldi is one and same. Chewytikka raised it. This does not diminish the inference made by Pete that he has knowledge of the secret of the base gravy. Unpublished on this or any site he says. I've called him on it.
Less than 12 months ago (April 2018) Haldi was still searching for the missing "5%". Nothing posted since (2 posts) says he found it.
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There is no secret. It's all here, it's all in KD's books, it's in the BE set of articles, it's in Abdul Mohed's book, it's in the Curry Guy's book etc. etc.
Over the past 18 months I have befriended a chef who has his own takeaway near St Andrews. When we started talking cookery he realised I knew a bit more than the average customer and he has made me other curries not on the menu, but more akin to what he, his family and the other chef's eat. In return, I went to the Halal store, bought some chicken and made some curries for him. He was very complimentary.
Late summer, early autumn, I took up 6 curries to my friend and his wife who run a coffee shop just outside Aberdeen. They were gobsmacked and have asked me to put on a curry night at the coffee shop. A date has still to be arranged and I am anxious about cooking for 40-50 people but we will work on the logistics at some point and I will get assistance from their chef and from themselves.
So, from a domestic point of view, I think other people's reactions are one of the things that tells me I am there. My partner says I don't really appreciate how good my curries are, and I think she may have a point as I am probably my own toughest critic.
From a commercial point of view, I have no experience whatsoever so I'm not even on the starting blocks never mind being 'there'. I think others like 976bar (Bob) and Chewy would have much more to say on that subject.
But for the moment I think I have got my curries to a consistency that I am happy with and I take great pleasure in cooking for eating's sake.
As for naan bread, well that is a different story altogether....
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I agree completely Stephen. I am also my own harshest critic. Others are impressed with my home cooked BIR style food (mostly without exception). I make no claim to being particularly good at it. Just competent at reproducing what I see here and elsewhere. I could easily be comfortable with a few repeatable dishes but I continue to want to learn more and try different things.
I'm not meaning to ridicule Pete / Haldi as I also agree with him in that being the actual cook on the day desensitizes you to the aromas and flavors. I'm also a strong believer in curry being better with maturity (time in the fridge), particularly traditionally cooked curry. I used to always cook Indian the day before for banquets and sometimes still do.
However, I stand by my assertion that his previous post is "extraordinary", I found it also provocative of further inquiry, and intriguing all at the same time.
I think it would be accepted that BIR food can be on a scale anywhere through awful, fair, good, great and up to awesome. What is the difference? I've long ago discarded the notion that there is " A secret" or "The 5%", but I don't discount the possibility that there are some things that when achieved, can make a huge difference. This is not just in BIR cookery but all cuisine. Pete even hits on that point in discussing the accidental success that occurs sometimes but is not repeatable because it isn't known what it was that actually worked on the day. I've experienced this phenomena myself on several occasions with BIR and other dishes.
If Pete / Haldi has recently discovered the key to this last reproducible achievement of improvement and BIR bliss, I'd hope he would be happy to share it with everybody, and in so doing, achieve what I'd have thought was the aim and objective of this forum.
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As for Pete/Haldi, his secret has always been Manky Oil.
Zaphod Beeblebrox, might say something different, ;D
But nobody should really care if their Bipolar Base Gravy turns out edible.
Probably by tomorrow they will have made the holy grail of all Base Gravies....or maybe not :-\
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Didn
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and the secret is the curry base
which is like no base on this, or any other site
This is an extraordinary claim! Are you saying that you know a "secret"? Something that is not on this site or any other source of curry information.
I'm sorry if that was misleading
No, I meant after countless recipes, I don't believe you can make a restaurant curry base at home.
I think the result is only obtainable by using seasoned bhajee oil and cooking on a very large scale
The aroma of a sample base, when heated, is the BIR aroma
You can't get that, with a home made base
don't get me wrong, you can make amazingly good curries at home
But they are not the same
I believe, you can't make a BIR curry unless the base is correct
That is my conclusion after about 30 years of trying
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I'm sorry if that was misleading
No, I meant after countless recipes, I don't believe you can make a restaurant curry base at home.
I think the result is only obtainable by using seasoned bhajee oil and cooking on a very large scale
OK, let me (if I may) attempt to clarify the last part. You will, I think, agree that most BIRs cook meals to order, and each pan contains one person's curry (in general). So the actual cooking of the final dish is not done on a large scale, it is done one dish at a time. If we eliminate that stage, the only thing that can be "cooked on a very large scale" is the base. Is this actually what you meant ? Sorry if I seem obtuse, but I really want to understand your point.
** Phil.
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Pete, I hear you and think you're referring to "the taste" - that special elusive smell and flavour we associate with good BIR food and which seems harder to find these days?
I don't agree this has to come from using bhaji oil in the base and I wouldn't be keen on buying my takeaways from a place which cooked like this. I believe the aroma is the result of well cooked (long / slow cooked) spices and onions and although it may arise in oil which has been used for lots of bhajis, there are other ways to skin the cat, so to speak.
I believe bunjarra is a much undervalued component, increasingly omitted by BIRs as it takes too much manual labour to produce it, but when added to the precooks of the veg and meat, it introduces "the taste" into the final dishes.
Let me say however, I do not have a good bunjarra recipe and don't think the Ashoka one which is on this forum is especially close to what I'm seeking. A very long cook which lets the deep savoury spice flavours leach into the oil and onions seems essential, with Asian bay being a key component.
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Can good 100% restaurant quality BIR dishes be perfectly replicated at home? This question would be best answered by a person who works in the job and cooks at home. A BIR chef who lives in a home with a kitchen. There must be at least one such individual in the UK. Is that person able to accomplish replicated BIR dishes at home? If that individual can do it, anyone can, if they know how. I'll wager it can be done.
The aroma I associate with Indian Takeaway or Restaurant probably comes from the volume and variety of dishes, spices and the tandoor. I now own one.. Fenugreek amongst others is prominent. Sverige espouses Tejpat. Nothing new here.
Base gravy is onion stew. Using the same ratio of ingredient and method in a big batch or small makes little to no difference. Individual serve dishes cooked on gas is achievable anywhere provided you have gas. Sorry to the electric only club. The use of aluminium curry pans is widely discussed. I now own one. Onion paste or not? If it's not used in business, why use it at home? Unless you like it or its actually required in a dish.
If it is as so often claimed that 100% is not achievable at home, the question has to be, why not? I'll admit that as Pete described, sometimes it just seems to work, while other times, it doesn't quite do it. That is my input. Not a mystery. I hope I'm wrong and someone just says, hey add this. Dagar Phool anybody? ;D
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the only thing that can be "cooked on a very large scale" is the base. Is this actually what you meant ? Sorry if I seem obtuse, but I really want to understand your point.
** Phil.
Hi Phil
Yes the base must be cooked on a large scale, or it doesn;'t taste right
I have been lucky enough to be allowed to cook my own curry in the kitchens of a few takeaways
The magic comes every time from the base as it's heated
it is an absolutely wonderful aroma
it's the base that has the flavour and aroma I can't make at home
you can add tomato puree to it
spices
garlic ginger
coriander
etc
and they are important and so is the cooking technique
but it's the base which is the irreplaceable ingredient if you want it to be exactly like a BIR
I can make great curries, that people tell me are better than curries they buy
But I have never been totally satisfied
Especially if you try a bit of curry cold
it is missing a flavour and depth
I think the cold curry test is very accurate for flavour analysis
I really do respect other peoples views on this issue
and perhaps I am wrong
But I truly believe the base is the most important ingredient to create a BIR flavour and aroma
if you are making a very strong flavoured curry, the difference is not so obvious
Curries with lots of sugar, garlic, pickle or cream are a better result
I would love to arrange a get together for us, to actually taste each others curries
I would be more than delighted to be shown I am wrong
Seriously I would
because this flavour search started as an interest, became a hobby, and grew to an absolute obsession
and you know, at the end of the day
That's not what I wanted
I only started posting as Haldi because the recipes I posted on this site, were shown me in confidence
I had no permission to share them
I got a bit paranoid that they might put 2 and 2 together, if they saw their recipe and my name, side by side
Silly eh?
Sorry if I've upset anyone
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I can't speak for others Pete, but you haven't upset me. This has triggered (re-triggered) a good discussion, It is a theme that goes all the way back to the very beginning and is "The Question" of BIR. Whenever you read over older threads this is commonly found.
But it intrigues me that you consider BIR base gravy impossible to replicate at home on a small scale. I have a huge crab boiler (25 l) and as far as I'm concerned if I filled it with the same ingredients in the same ratios as I would in my 10 litre pot, or my 4 litre pot, and cooked it the same way for the same time I would just end up with a huge amount of the same thing, or at least so close it doesn't matter. Obviously I would require a large burner for enough heat but I have that.
If the curry you have been able to prepare at the commercial kitchen, using the commercial base gravy, tastes better than your home cooked versions then it could be the base gravy, BUT, it must be a different base gravy. That doesn't mean you can't make the same one at home. You just haven't been shown what goes in it.
Or it could be the heat factor from the commercial hob. This has also been discussed, but it would affect the finished dish cooking rather than the base gravy.
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Yes the base must be cooked on a large scale, or it doesn;'t taste right
Thank you for that clarification.
I have been lucky enough to be allowed to cook my own curry in the kitchens of a few takeaways. The magic comes every time from the base as it's heated. It is an absolutely wonderful aroma
OK, more clarification sought
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If the curry you have been able to prepare at the commercial kitchen, using the commercial base gravy, tastes better than your home cooked versions then it could be the base gravy, BUT, it must be a different base gravy. That doesn't mean you can't make the same one at home. You just haven't been shown what goes in it.
I think you're missing the point of Pete's assertion. First, Pete has been into actual takeaways and seen exactly how they prepare their base. Second, the missing flavour is coming from the way the restaurant/takeaways use their oil. They deep fry bhajis by the score, poppadoms, chips, etc., etc and it's this super spiced, well tempered, old oil that ultimately gets (or maybe used to get) used in the base. Chinese takeaways do exactly the same. Now, unlike Pete, I believe you are right in saying it can be recreated at home but only if you are prepared to go full BIR and cook both the range and quantity of the aforementioned items that they would cook between oil changes. No small endeavour I think you would acknowledge?
This is, as I think you alluded to, going over old ground that goes back to the start of this forum and reappears as a topic not infrequently as new members come along. We had great discussions and people actually cooking lots of bhajis to try to get the same effect but it misses all the other things they deep fry in there and so was doomed to failure. I did it myself and it definitely helps but my effort was small scale and incomplete and so fails the full-on BIR test. This is the essence of Pete's argument I believe in asserting that it can't be made at home.
Around the late eighties/early nineties we started recycling oil in the UK and it got collected by the local council. Prior to that there would be a cost to the takeaway/restaurant to have this oil taken away. So before the old oil started being collected for free (I believe it could even be sold) it would be recycled in the curries and in the base to get rid of as much as possible through the good old customer's stomach. Hence, no doubt, the real reason we used to see curries served swimming in oil to a greater extent than we do today.
It's no small coincidence to me that I noticed the gradual loss of the "taste" - as I know it - in BIR curries around this same time. In retrospect it all makes sense to me.
BTW Pete if this isn't what you mean don't be backward in coming forward and telling me ... I can take it! :)
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I don't agree this has to come from using bhaji oil in the base and I wouldn't be keen on buying my takeaways from a place which cooked like this.
First I don't think you'd know and second because of that you almost certainly have had it at some time. Unless, that is, you're not in the UK and/or have only started eating BIR curries in the past twenty years or so. This has been and will continue to be one of the greatest problems of this forum.
I believe bunjarra is a much undervalued component, increasingly omitted by BIRs as it takes too much manual labour to produce it, but when added to the precooks of the veg and meat, it introduces "the taste" into the final dishes.
To be precise, it introduces your perception of "the taste" as we don't know what each other's perceptions are. Just based on what you've written though yours is very different to mine and probably Pete's. I have used bunjarras and simple caramelised onions and they definitely help but they are not the missing taste I am looking for. Certainly they may be one component of it though.
Let me say however, I do not have a good bunjarra recipe and don't think the Ashoka one which is on this forum is especially close to what I'm seeking. A very long cook which lets the deep savoury spice flavours leach into the oil and onions seems essential, with Asian bay being a key component.
You don't have a good bunjarra recipe but are still adamant that bunjarra is key to the taste. That seems very contradictory to me.
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Now, unlike Pete, I believe you are right in saying it can be recreated at home but only if you are prepared to go full BIR and cook both the range and quantity of the aforementioned items that they would cook between oil changes. No small endeavour I think you would acknowledge?
No small endeavour indeed, if you attempt it on a commercial scale. But why try ? Why not emulate it on a domestic scale, using scaled-down quantities of everything ? Will that not achieve exactly the same results ? If not, why not ?
** Phil.
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I have been lucky enough to be allowed to cook my own curry in the kitchens of a few takeaways. The magic comes every time from the base as it's heated. It is an absolutely wonderful aroma
OK, more clarification sought
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when it's heated on it's own. Many places start off a Korma with simply the base heated in the pan. You would definitely notice the amazing aroma then
OK, understood.
I'm not sure what the recipe is for karahi lamb,, but perhaps that is one of the stronger flavoured curries. A strong flavour hides any shortcomings of the base But I don't know what that tasted like. Wouldn't mind trying.
Well, it's hard to describe, but you could certainly tell that it was lamb and not (say) beef, so I imagine that that indicates that the karahi masala wasn't over-powering things.
we really need some get together, to at least reset the understanding of what we are achieving. If this was arranged with 5 people, then we should each bring 5 sample cartons of our cooking to exchange with each other. Go home, try our given samples and chat about it. I could even get some proper curry gravy from a takeaway, Should be able to do that
Sadly, living in Cornwall and no longer in Kent, I am unlikely to be able to take part. But if I were to want to take part, I would feel intimidated by being asked to bring five dishes. I could manage three with ease (one chicken curry, one lamb curry with very different spicing to the chicken, and one pulao rice. Four I could manage but would be less keen. Five would be just too much pressure for too little reward.
I have seen the base made up at three places. The only differences between that and what we do at home is :
1 Scale
2 Bhajee oil
3 the length of time the base is cooked
I really do not believe that scale is significant (but of course I may be wrong). And I have no problem cooking a base over several days, if that will help. But do I really need to cook bhajis in the oil, or could I just add the ingredients of a typical onion bhaji without bothering to actually make them, and then filter the gunge out at the end. I might give it a go, as I have no base at the moment.
I'm now 63, and believe it's unlikely I will get to the bottom of this "simple"problem
And I'm 72 in two month's time (insh'Allah and D.v. ) and I am far closer this year than I have been any year before. So don't give up, Pete !
** Phil.
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It seems that the spiced oil / reclaimed oil / bhaji oil has been done and done again, and it may add something and be, or has been, industry practice for whatever reason. Can it be undisputedly claimed it to be the mysterious missing taste? Probably not! This is because others dispute it, or have tried it and found it to be not really worth the effort. I've tried it and I agree it has to add something. One thing it will certainly add is a level of commonality to all dishes it's used in. If there is spiced oil to be reclaimed and used, I sometimes do it. However, my "best" curries have not come from it's inclusion. My best curries have usually come about accidentally, resultant of my habit of straying from the recipe instructions and / or ingredients slightly through laziness, clumsiness, forgetfulness, ingredient availability, experimentally and / or inebriation level. Unfortunately for me, it isn't from knowledge or skill and I rarely document everything I do and consequently my occasional accidental successes are unrepeatable.
While it may theoretically be possible to simulate used commercial oil at home (CT#1 recently called it manky oil *1), it is probably unrealistic. If this is a critical element, I would have to agree with Pete that commercial BIR base gravy is not achievable at home or at the very least, difficult. Alternatively, we would need to go and source some commercial BIR used oil and use it to make base gravy at home. The fabricated attempts at spiced oil must be very close.
I agree with Phil in as much as the scale of the base gravy itself is irrelevant, all else being constant. Prolonged cooking is possible and flavor development by aging in traditional curries and stews is widely known and accepted. However, I just used Latif's base gravy that's been in the fridge for nearly a week and really can't say it was any different.
For the most part, I'm OK with what I'm producing. It may not be top notch tucker but it'll do for now and it often does pass the cold test for me as well.
Either way, the information that is supposed to be "secret", actually isn't. It is on this site and others.
*1 Manky def: adjective 1) Inferior, worthless, 2) Dirty and unpleasant.
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we really need some get together, to at least reset the understanding of what we are achieving. If this was arranged with 5 people, then we should each bring 5 sample cartons of our cooking to exchange with each other. Go home, try our given samples and chat about it. I could even get some proper curry gravy from a takeaway, Should be able to do that
Sadly, living in Cornwall and no longer in Kent, I am unlikely to be able to take part. But if I were to want to take part, I would feel intimidated by being asked to bring five dishes. I could manage three with ease (one chicken curry, one lamb curry with very different spicing to the chicken, and one pulao rice. Four I could manage but would be less keen. Five would be just too much pressure for too little reward.
although I see that it's unlikely we can meet. that's not what I meant by 5 sample cartons.
I didn't mean 5 different curries..
I meant 5 the same.
you cook your best curry and fill up 5 cartons
you would give one to each of the 5 people that we were meeting
everyone would do the same
so everyone would go home with one sample of everyone's cooking
. And I have no problem cooking a base over several days, if that will help. But do I really need to cook bhajis in the oil, or could I just add the ingredients of a typical onion bhaji without bothering to actually make them, and then filter the gunge out at the end. I might give it a go, as I have no base at the moment.
seriously don't bother trying to make the oil
that's the whole point
you can't make it at home, you simply don't have the volume of bhajees etc to fry in it
you need hundreds
the oil is essentially a stock
While it may theoretically be possible to simulate used commercial oil at home (CT#1 recently called it manky oil *1), it is probably unrealistic. If this is a critical element, I would have to agree with Pete that commercial BIR base gravy is not achievable at home or at the very least, difficult. Alternatively, we would need to go and source some commercial BIR used oil and use it to make base gravy at home.
I did get some oil and made curries with the BIR aroma
The takeaway I got it from, had a fridge full of the oil
They kept it in opened, large tomato puree cans
But maybe there is another way to do this
I am still open minded
That's why I thought if we could try each others curries,, you could see if someone has really cracked the problem
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you cook your best curry and fill up 5 cartons. you would give one to each of the 5 people that we were meeting. everyone would do the same. so everyone would go home with one sample of everyone's cooking
Understood.
seriously don't bother trying to make the oil. that's the whole point. you can't make it at home, you simply don't have the volume of bhajees etc to fry in it. you need hundreds. the oil is essentially a stock
"Hundreds" if I am trying to make oil in restaurant quantities, but I am not
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Do you manage to get oil at tens of bhajis? How much exactly, do you know? That's an idea I've been toying around for a while now too. Not tried it yet though.
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I don't understand, Raphael. Are you thinking that we plan to press the bhajis to extract the oil ? If so, that is not the idea. Rather, the idea is to cook the bhajis in oil that will eventually be used to make a base.
** Phil.
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My opinion, for what it's worth.
I stopped searching for that 100% BIR flavour/aroma when I realised it doesn't exist :)
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My opinion, for what it's worth. I stopped searching for that 100% BIR flavour/aroma when I realised it doesn't exist :)
So if it doesn't exist, what is it that we experience when we dine in a better (but not modern/contemporary/w-h-y) British Indian Restaurant ?
** Phil.
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"Hundreds" if I am trying to make oil in restaurant quantities, but I am not
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I stopped searching for that 100% BIR flavour/aroma when I realised it doesn't exist :)
So I imagined that unique flavour and aroma from the pre-nineties curries that doesn't exist in modern curries then? I must be more in my dotage than I thought.
Seriously though, I really hope you said that with tongue firmly in cheek or it's just insulting.
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Ah well, I think I'll give up on this idea, then. I have, over the past few weeks, collected almost 250ml of "spiced oil", so I shall use that to make today's base, I will then cook a lamb karahari and a chicken curry using it, and report back.
** Phil.
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I stopped searching for that 100% BIR flavour/aroma when I realised it doesn't exist :)
So I imagined that unique flavour and aroma from the pre-nineties curries that doesn't exist in modern curries then? I must be more in my dotage than I thought.
Seriously though, I really hope you said that with tongue firmly in cheek or it's just insulting.
Not meant to be insulting SS.
I remember being a young kid and thinking summers were always long sunny affairs. I also remember having what I thought was the perfect curry at certain times.
100% BIR does not exist. Taste is subjective, so we will all have a different view on what constitutes a good curry.
If you are looking for that 90's curry you so enjoyed, you have to go back to the 90's. Your perception of those curries would be influenced by many things, including, but not limited to: your age, your mood, your health and so on.
BIR restaurants/takeaways can't always produce dishes that have that 100% flavour/aroma.
To answer Phil's original question How do you know when you are "there" ?, I think that if you can make a curry you'd have been happy to have been served in a restaurant, you are there.
Last week the Tesco delivery guy brought our groceries into the kitchen. He remarked in a Yorkshire accent , I think ' Can I smell curry'? Then went on to say that his dinner/tea was sorted tonight.
The point is that you may not think you have produced a BIR aroma, but you probably have to outsiders. But 100%.............doesn't exist.
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Ah well, I think I'll give up on this idea, then. I have, over the past few weeks, collected almost 250ml of "spiced oil", so I shall use that to make today's base, I will then cook a lamb karahari and a chicken curry using it, and report back.
** Phil.
The only thing I'd say about that Phil is that, at least when I've tried it, the long cook of the base completely neutralises any benefit of spiced oil. So don't expect miracles.To get the real benefit it must be used to make the curries themselves (in my opinion and experience).
By the way, the spiced oil, by which I mean oil recovered from curries - is that what you mean? - is in itself a half-way-house towards this BIR old-oil we've been discussing, Which is probably why I rate its use when making curries so much.
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Sigh. And yes, "oil recovered from curries" is what I mean by "spiced oil". But see below for a new idea ...
One of the things that strikes me about Pete's oil theory is that there are spices used in onion bhajis, pakoras, etc., that don't normally find their way into curries. So, if we could identify these spices, and use them as a whole garam masala, we might be able to produce a reasonable approximation to what I will loosely call "bhaji oil". Since I don't normally go in for making Indian snacks, I am going to have to rely on others to help me flesh out my list, but those that immediately come to mind are as follows :
- Ajwain
- Kaloonji
- Mustard seeds
What others can others think of ?
** Phil.
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This seems to have gone on two paths. Present and historical. Secret Santa at first made a comment about the curry sauce being "his indicator" of being "there". This is a reasonable post in line with the thread topic, and I'm assuming that he meant now, and not pre-90's. What was available 3 or 4 decades ago is past. Talk about what we can and / or can't and will and / or wont do today.
At the top of Page 2 (reply #10), Pete quoted SS and made the comment about the secret to the sauce being the base gravy, which is not on this or any site, ie, now. Hence my question to him about the "secret". Call it whatever you like, the Secret, the 5%, the last piece of the puzzle, that missing something, whatever. I thought Pete's post was suggesting he knew what it was and we all didn't so I pressed on it. That's how I read it but it may not have been what he meant.
If it has now simply come down to deep fryer oil, then I'd suggest that this information is on this site and others, contrary to Pete's original claim.
When my family ran a Fish n chip shop decades ago, once the fryer oil had reached replacement time, the oldest oil was gone. New fresh oil went into the chip pre-fryer and all the other oil was moved along. The chip oil went into the fish pre-fryer, the pre-fryer oil became the finish fry oil and the expired finish fry oil was gone. I understand that fishy infused oil becomes rank (manky) and is a different thing to used Indian spiced fry oil but I'm not sure I'd bother to use it. I guess if I could obtain some I'd give it a try. I know a guy who cheffed IR. I'll ask him what he knows about oil reuse.
If reclaimed oil is all Pete was referring to, it's been done. It is on this site an elsewhere. If not,???
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If reclaimed oil is all Pete was referring to, it's been done. It is on this site an elsewhere. If not,???
I believe it originated on this site and others have copied it since ... this was long before anyone had access to real BIR kitchens. That's recovered oil from curries anyway. And I believe it was me who first suggested this all those many years ago, but I wouldn't bet money on it.
Pete's talking about reuse of the deep frying oil. No offence Livo but Pete knows what he's talking about and you're coming over rather negatively on this. His conjecture is simple ... he believes the "secret" is in the reuse of fried BIR oil in the base. I concur. OK? Clear?
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Not meaning to be negative or offensive or anything SS. I simply wanted to know what was meant by his comment, which inferred he knew something and we didn't. I don't doubt anybody else in their experience or knowledge.
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So, if we could identify these spices, and use them as a whole garam masala, we might be able to produce a reasonable approximation to what I will loosely call "bhaji oil".
You could do that but it's already been done. By CA for one, His version of spiced oil is on the forum somewhere. I basically ignored it because it doesn't encompass all that's needed.
But your focus here is too narrow Phil. Just as an example, the frying of all those poppadoms will inevitably result in a frying of the loose "flour" on the surface of the poppadom. It's a tiny amount but over a few hundred poppadoms it mounts up. Likewise for samosas. So you have an effect like gumbo where this frying of the flour significantly alters its flavour and thus that of the oil.
Do they deep fry gulab jamun in the same oil? Don't know. But if they do then fats, sugars and salt will react in a complex way adding another note.
Equally the frying of water containing items like bhajis, pakoras and chips will temper the oil adding another layer. And the Maillard reaction of the frying chips will add yet another note.
I could probably go on but the main point is that just frying a collection of spices won't cut it. It really, really has to be the actual articles; bhajis etc. I want to be positive and offer hope but I just can't see a simple way around it.
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But your focus here is too narrow Phil. Just as an example, the frying of all those poppadoms will inevitably result in a frying of the loose "flour" on the surface of the poppadom. It's a tiny amount but over a few hundred poppadoms it mounts up. Likewise for samosas. So you have an effect like gumbo where this frying of the flour significantly alters its flavour and thus that of the oil.
I know, I know ... But since I think that I am finally "there", I thought I'd try to go a bit further !
** Phil.
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It was always possible that I misunderstood pete's original post and I've said that previously. As far as I'm now concerned, pete answered my initial question satisfactorily here.
I'm sorry if that was misleading
No, I meant after countless recipes, I don't believe you can make a restaurant curry base at home.
I think the result is only obtainable by using seasoned bhajee oil and cooking on a very large scale
The aroma of a sample base, when heated, is the BIR aroma
You can't get that, with a home made base
I now believe he originally used the word "secret" in a general and broad sense, which was not intended to be interpreted literally. He may have said the key to success is in the Base Gravy. I can understand how his claim of it "not being on this or any other site" is in direct reference to exact base gravy recipes on this or other sites. I'm fine with his explanation here. ;D Written words on forums, and SMS messages are worse, can easily be misinterpreted and misunderstood without the nuance of spoken language.
However, there is still need for clarification here. On the one hand, in order to produce "The Base Gravy" the fryer oil is essential. Fair enough. Yet I've now read that the long cook of the gravy neutralizes the oil and to achieve any benefit of "the flavor" it must be used in the cooking of the finished dish. I'm not intending to be negative, condescending, patronizing or pedantic but we seem to be at 6's and 7's on this one. In relation to Base Gravy, is the oil essential, or is it neutralized?
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In relation to Base Gravy, is the oil essential, or is it neutralized?
On the face of it it seems quite a conundrum doesn't it?
So, as I said, in my personal experience (i.e. having actually done this to test it), the use of recovered oil (curry oil) in the base is relatively pointless as its potency, essence, call it what you will, gets lost over the long cook. That's not to say its addition does nothing and doesn't improve a base but for me it doesn't maintain the promise that the intense spiced oil on its own might promise at the start.
But the "manky" oil is a different beast as I expounded above in answer to Phil. It isn't just spices cooked in oil. And my conjecture, based on Pete's experience and my own small experiments with just bhajis (an insufficient but nonetheless enlightening test), is that the manky oil, which is not just a product of oil and spices, will affect the base in a way that recovered oil will not, even over the long cook.
But it is conjecture because I have not made what I consider real manky oil nor have I been fortunate enough, unlike Pete, to get some real manky oil to test. However it's still my belief that this is the "taste" I am missing, i.e. the last 5%. Maybe if I can whip up the enthusiasm one day I might ponder how to really make this stuff on a small scale and finally put this to bed.
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In relation to Base Gravy, is the oil essential, or is it neutralized?
However it's still my belief that this is the "taste" I am missing, i.e. the last 5%. Maybe if I can whip up the enthusiasm one day I might ponder how to really make this stuff on a small scale and finally put this to bed.
Let us know if you come across any unicorns, leprechauns or mermaids on the way :)
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Let us know if you come across any unicorns, leprechauns or mermaids on the way :)
Cheeky! ;)
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It was always possible that I misunderstood pete's original post and I've said that previously. As far as I'm now concerned, pete answered my initial question satisfactorily here.
I'm sorry if that was misleading
No, I meant after countless recipes, I don't believe you can make a restaurant curry base at home.
I think the result is only obtainable by using seasoned bhajee oil and cooking on a very large scale
The aroma of a sample base, when heated, is the BIR aroma
You can't get that, with a home made base
I now believe he originally used the word "secret" in a general and broad sense, which was not intended to be interpreted literally. He may have said the key to success is in the Base Gravy. I can understand how his claim of it "not being on this or any other site" is in direct reference to exact base gravy recipes on this or other sites. I'm fine with his explanation here.
yes that is what I meant
I started getting into the takeaway kitchens about 13 years back
and I have seen and even helped to make the curry gravy in takeaways
the seasoned oil is normally added after boiling up the onions/tomatoes and peppers for an hour and a half
the oil is not manky or horrible, or in any way bad tasting
I have actually tasted a little bit it on it's own
it's slightly hot and there is a "fried" flavour about it
pretty dull really
nothing exceptional
it's always filtered anyway
so there are no burnt bits in it
But when the oil is added,,to the boiled onions, within 5 minutes, the BIR aroma just hits you, and doesn't disappear
It's just there really strong
Even after blending
After it's blended
the gravy was always boiled again until the oil rose to the top
Then you let the gravy cool down a bit
Maybe an hour
Scoop off all the oil you could, for starting off the curries
this oil always seems to be held in old tomato puree cans
there is normally one on the cooker full of this oil
what can I say?
When I add fresh oil to my boiled onions, at home, I don't get the aroma
ANYTHING used with proper BIR gravy, has the BIR taste and aroma
even if you made a curry with no extra spices or garlic ginger or any main ingredient, which they sometimes do
I've seen people have chips and curry sauce made like that, and it's still BIR tasting
I also think cooking the base very large helps too
These are just my thoughts, perhaps I'm wrong
But I hit a wall on my cooking over 10 years ago which I just can't get through
and these are my conclusions
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*1 Manky def: adjective 1) Inferior, worthless, 2) Dirty and unpleasant.
Pete, Hopefully, the use of the term "manky oil" in this discussion refers to definition 1) in terms of further economic value and usefulness to a business.
I agree with you SS in that this dichotomy of individual experiences does pose a dilemma.
I guess the only thing left is to try it for myself. I've tried cooking dishes using my own reclaimed oil. I once cooked a failed batch of bhajis and gave up as I didn't care for them and neither did anybody else. I haven't tried CA's Spiced Oil or Steven Heap's adaptation of Niter Kebbeh, (which appears to be a very close match to Ghanna's oil or Netter Kebbeha, http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=190.msg1078#msg1078 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=190.msg1078#msg1078) ) I've only ever used fresh oil to prepare a base gravy.
When I next fuel up the ute I'll ask my service station attendant friend his take on using manky oil in the AIR industry. I understand very well that there are 2 distinct camps on the forum as to the benefits or requirements of using old oil or new manually spiced oil.
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I believe bunjarra is a much undervalued component, increasingly omitted by BIRs as it takes too much manual labour to produce it, but when added to the precooks of the veg and meat, it introduces "the taste" into the final dishes.
Let me say however, I do not have a good bunjarra recipe and don't think the Ashoka one which is on this forum is especially close to what I'm seeking. A very long cook which lets the deep savoury spice flavours leach into the oil and onions seems essential, with Asian bay being a key component.
Sverige, I don't know if you've ever tried this, but I have and I've revisited again with a batch today. Masala Mark's Aussie IR Onion Gravy. It's actually more a paste really.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4923.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4923.0) This sounds to be almost exactly what you are describing. I've used both the method and also these pastes in other cooking along more BIR style as well. This onion gravy is pretty tasty and could do the trick for you. I make 1/2 quantity usually.
I've also made a 1/4 quantity of Masala Mark's Tomato Gravy. This too is really quite delicious.
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the oil is not manky or horrible, or in any way bad tasting
Yes I wish I hadn't called it manky now. I was using the term in its least accurate sense. :P
I should just have said old or used as that's what I meant.
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livo, it occurred to me that if you're a native Aussie and haven't been to the UK you wouldn't know what the "taste", from a BIR perspective, is anyway. Have you tasted BIR curries?
And of course that would mean that even if you succeeded in imitating the used oil on a small scale it still wouldn't be the "taste" for you who is used to AIR style curries.
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I don't think the addition of spiced oil to my KD base made any significant difference, and I certainly didn't notice a "wonderful BIR-ry smell" when bringing the base to a gentle simmer, so just a waste of 120ml of good spiced oil, IMHO. My next idea will be to bhunao some whole garam masala in the mixed chill-infused/garlic-infused oils before starting a curry; I will then filter the oil to remove the whole spices, after which I will cook the curry in the normal way.
** Phil.
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I don't think the addition of spiced oil to my KD base made any significant difference...
As predicted.
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SS, unknown I'm afraid and it opens a whole new discussion doesn't it.
Firstly. No, I have not ever eaten an actual "British" Indian curry. Following the exact instructions on this site, books, ebooks and YouTube, I have eaten BIR curry. Clearly, if people on this site still feel there's still something missing for them, then it is for me as well. If others say they are cooking perfect BIR, then I am as well. What I can say is that there is that same feeling that the commercial aroma and taste is missing here as well, so in that regard I feel the same.
It is worth noting the Amazon blurb for The Curry Secret, which refers to the Indian restaurant recipes being global. I don't believe there is a massive difference between here and there. I've never seen MasalaMark's 3 paste method used and most places have big pots of base gravy and pre-cooked meats and vegies etc. Quite possibly though, true BIR is different. Almost certainly, old school BIR was different to what you have today.
While I really don't see that there can be much difference between the curries here and there, the anecdotal evidence is there to suggest otherwise. Expatriate Brits certainly used to snub Aussie curries, but I'd think that may no longer be the case. The Australian industry was in its infancy 40 years ago but it isn't now.
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Sverige, I also found this Bunjarra recipe on a site from 2012 by a guy called Addy. He actually refers people to CRo in the post so probably a member. The title of the thread looks somewhat familiar doesn't it?
https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/whats-for-tea-tonight-8.256241/page-716 (https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/whats-for-tea-tonight-8.256241/page-716)
Edit. Don't bother, it's a direct snitch of panpots Ashoka recipe. I see you've already tried.
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Here we go again around the mulberry bush lol.
This debate has been going on as long as this forum has existed. Its got to be the 3rd or 4th time - at least for me to listen to all this.
Unfortunately, most people on this site do not understand SS's/ Petes quest.
Unless you were eating bir curries in the 80's, you've probably never tasted that illusive umami taste you could get back then. (the missing 5%).
Generally today, we can all give our local bir a run for their money with regard to what they now knock up, but compared to back in the golden years....... we dont even come close!!! Most of the top Bangladeshi Cooks were deported years ago
Regards
Mick
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This debate has been going on as long as this forum has existed. Its got to be the 3rd or 4th time - at least for me to listen to all this.
Unfortunately, most people on this site do not understand SS's/ Petes quest.
It's way more than three or four times. And, yes, me and Pete are very misunderstood. ;D
Most of the top Bangladeshi Cooks were deported years ago
Yes, indeed. I hadn't really factored that into the equation. Many of them will have gone home anyway after making their fortune in the UK to live it up as kings in Pakistan or Bangladesh. So lack of experienced chefs, along with not using old oil as much and the increasing use of Pataks pastes by the shady crowd who started up around the nineties solely to cash in on the trend in my opinion completely explains the rather lacklustre curries that I get served today and that anyone can make.
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I also found this Bunjarra recipe on a site from 2012 by a guy called Addy. He actually refers people to CRo in the post so probably a member.
Addy is a White English bloke who set up his own curry caf
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Wasn't that Adie ?
** Phil.
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Generally today, we can all give our local bir a run for their money with regard to what they now knock up, but compared to back in the golden years....... we dont even come close!!!
I've been eating BIR cuisine since 1963, and there are some dishes which I ate in my earlier years which I will remember forever
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While I really don't see that there can be much difference between the curries here and there, the anecdotal evidence is there to suggest otherwise.
This is from Aussie Mick on the mango chicken thread:
I don't know whether you realise, but the vast majority of UK "Indian" restaurants are actually Bangladeshi or Pakistani owned, whereas in OZ, most are owned by Indians, that is why the food is completely different.
So it would seem that AIR style curries will be to some extent different to that found in the UK.
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Wasn't that Adie ?
** Phil.
Hmmm ... yes, but I thought they were the same. Perhaps not.
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Well, "Addy" is from the Midlands; I thought Adie was from (or in) Lincolnshire or somewhere near there ...
Addy
cooking...
Male, 48, from Midlands
Living the dream,,,,, No, I actually am!
Member Since:
Jul 14, 2000
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The cultural diversity of Australia is rapidly expanding. I can't speak to the background of past or present AIR owners and chefs. Most restaurants state Mughlai and or Punjabi foods. I do not doubt that the dishes here are not identical to true old school BIR. I just don't think they are too different today based on what I'm cooking using the information on this forum and what I can buy. Very similar to my tastes.
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...and most BIRs these days wouldn't know a bhuna if one bit their ankles.
Amen to that. Although even then I know we differ on why. I believe for you, apart from the flavour, the essence is that of a thick sauce in traditional bhuna fashion. Whereas for me the bhuna was, in texture, pretty much like any other savoury curry I'd had; the real difference was the unique savoury flavour it had. Quite different to any other savoury curry and utterly moreish. By pure accident, in the early days of my BIR experimentation, I reproduced the flavour precisely. Did I record the technique and ingredients for posterity? No! I could cry, really I could. I've even half-heartedly considered visiting a hypnotist to see if they can dredge the memory from my subconscious.
And this American spell checker is so f'ing annoying. If I want to spell it savoury and flavour, I will by God! It makes me want to punch the screen! >:(
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The "American spelling checker" is almost certainly an artifact of your web browser rather than of the site; I can enter "savoury", "flavour", "colour" and so on without any problen, whereas if I enter "savory", "flavor" or "color", all three are red-underlined.
** Phil.
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The "American spelling checker" is almost certainly an artifact of your web browser...
Ohhhh! Is that something that can be changed? I'm using Waterfox which is an offshoot of Firefox.
Edit: it appears it can only be turned on or off. No option for BE spell checker. >:(
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You should install either the British English version of Waterfox or download the British English language pack and dictionary. I am assuming that the options for Waterfox are similar to those for Seamonkey, which I use and which is also a Firefox derivative. See also https://github.com/MrAlex94/Waterfox/issues/291 (https://github.com/MrAlex94/Waterfox/issues/291)
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Actually there is an option "Locale Select" which is set to English (British) so it would seem it's not the browser? [Sorry all for derailing the topic by the way]
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But what is the default dictionary, and did you follow the link I sent ?
Set locale to en-GB, but default dictionary is still en-US. Unable to load en-GB dictionary.
** Phil.
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But what is the default dictionary, and did you follow the link I sent ?
I did not ... temporarily went link-blind. But I can now see that that is the problem. Problem is when trying to install the language pack it says I can't because I'm version 57.0 and it needs 66.0 and I am on the latest update of Waterfox. At least I know what the problem now is though so thanks for that.
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OK, after an almost infinite amount of faffing around I can finally send this using Watefox without red underlines : colour vigour humour rigour etcour (OK, not the last !).
And with red underlines : color vigor humor rigor etcor.
Don't ask me how many of my steps were unnecessary, but the last one (and therefore the one that appears to have made the difference) was to install british_english_dictionary-1.19.1.1-typefix-sm+tb+fx.xpi
And then right-click in the "reply" dialogue (:)) box and select Languages > English (United Kingdom).
** Phil.
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And then right-click in the "reply" dialogue (:)) box and select Languages > English (United Kingdom).
I don't see any ""reply" dialogue box". Where is that? I've got the languages option now but it only has American English as an option. I've installed the only two language packs I can find.
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The "Reply" dialogue box is the one in which you typed your reply ! Did you install british_english_dictionary-1.19.1.1-typefix-sm+tb+fx.xpi ? I installed both it and Marco Pinto's British English dictionary, as well as Dao Gottwald's Dictionary Switcher, but it was only after installing the first of these (which was actually the last to be installed) that I could finally select British English by using right-click / select languages / English (United Kingdom). This message also sent from Waterfox just to confirm that it still works in glorious (techni) colour !
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Did you install british_english_dictionary-1.19.1.1-typefix-sm+tb+fx.xpi ?
I followed a link which I thought had done that but apparently not. Where can I find and this file and how do I install it?
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'Tis here (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/british-english-dictionary/), Santa. If you visit that page using Waterfox, you should see a button "+ Add to Firefox" (I don't. I see "<Dustbin-icon> Remove", because I have already installed it).
** Phil.
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'Tis here (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/british-english-dictionary/), Santa. If you visit that page using Waterfox, you should see a button "+ Add to Firefox"
Ok, so I know I was doing the right thing then. But I still have no option other than American English and a search for that file shows it is not present.
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Well, try adding Marco's dictionary and the Language Switcher; those three are all I have. Incidentally, do you still see "+ Add to Firefox" or do you now see "<Dustbin icon> Remove" ?
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Back on topic. I see that in Andy's very first post (Andy's post being the one that was missing), he wrote :
It is quite true to say that all can be reproduced at home if one has a tandoor of course or should I say most can be reproduced at home with very near tandoor produced items done in an oven/grill/pan.
There are of course methods adopted in the cooking to get that required consistant taste one expects and of course things like evaporated milk in Korma and tomato soup in chicken tikka massala and the very careful flavour enhancing in 90 per cent of all dishes.
.
I have stressed the part that most struck me ...
** Phil.
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And back off topic.
Well, try adding Marco's dictionary and the Language Switcher;
Marco's dictionary? Language switcher? You've lost me completely now. (You mean Marco pinto? I've installed that.)
Incidentally, do you still see "+ Add to Firefox" or do you now see "<Dustbin icon> Remove" ?
I see "Remove" so it is installed and also enabled.
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Language switcher? You've lost me completely now.
Dao Gottwald's Dictionary Switcher (https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-us/firefox/addon/dictionary-switcher/?src=collection&collection_id=6d5aea4a-f2c3-9762-2aa6-7c4f96a24f30)
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Right, so I've got British English Dictionary (Marco Pinto) installed and enabled and now Dictionary Switcher installed and enabled. No difference! Still only have English (United States) as a selectable language option. It also says in Dictionary Switcher that it displays the current language in the status bar. I don't have that either. :o
I've found a peculiarity. I'll try to post a pic so you can see it as it's easy to do that than explain. Give me a while.
(https://i.imgur.com/jelYZRI.jpg)
See there's a tick against something that is greyed out. I'm guessing that that should be my BrE dictionary? It's not selectable. Any ideas?
Edit: D'oh, ignore that, I'd added another BrE dictionary and that greyed out bar disappeared when i removed it so it was down to that. So i'm still stuck with only English (United States). :(
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Discussion moved to Talk about anything other than curry / Waterfox. (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=15106.new#new)
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Back on topic. I see that in Andy's very first post (Andy's post being the one that was missing), he wrote :
and the very careful flavour enhancing in 90 per cent of all dishes.
.
I have stressed the part that most struck me ...
** Phil.
Any particular thoughts on that Phil? It seems to have slipped through the net at the time.
(Did you mean to put this in the thread about the missing posts?)
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Any particular thoughts on that Phil? It seems to have slipped through the net at the time.
Not really; "very careful flavour enhancing" definitely suggests an additive, but MSG ? Doesn't feel right to me. What else might it be ?
(Did you mean to put this in the thread about the missing posts?)
Again, not really, but I wasn't really thinking too hard when I posted it, I just wanted to draw fellow curry buff's attention to what I though an interesting (and definitely early) post.
** Phil.
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OK, I am now working my way through Andy's posts (very interesting reading) and I see he writes "the special paste that is added to nearly all of the dishes produced in the restaurant/take-away". I shall keep reading
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If you read Andy's "vindaloo 10 year" recipe thread you will see mention of Msg as an optional enhancer, decision to include it determined by sense of smell (odd). It is not included in the listed ingredients but appears in the method. Also of note is the inclusion of Aromatic Salt, in itself containing trace amounts of up to 6 or more spices. I'd imagine his other recipes contain similar advice.
I was doing same thing Phil.
Chicken Madras has exact same recommendation. Step 6) in method.
He was a big fan of TRS tandoori Masala, asafoetida, the pre-cooked onion paste and Aromatic Salt. Plus Msg. HIS idea of the BIR flavour perhaps.
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"Let me first say that the pot of hot oil as well as being used for curries etc. is also used, with the addition of a wire basket for the frying of onion bhaji?s, samosas, king prawn butterfly, chicken rolls, keema rolls and occasionally chips. The oil therefore is always getting infused with the release of spices from the above produces. Therefore the oil takes on a slight aromatic and smoky smell. It is topped up with fresh oil when it becomes too low for the wire basket to be able to fry the above."
What was that I was saying earlier? ;D
As msg is a flavour enhancer, we can tell when cooking the depth of flavour based on the aroma coming off. Adding msg does change the aroma.
Nahhh, I'm not having that.
"We do not have a single bought curry paste on the premises."
Just like it used to be in the old days. This just confirms all I've been saying about why the "taste" and "smell" have disappeared (for those lucky enough to have been around when it existed).
P.S. Phil I don't know if you could get Tom to delete all the spell checker stuff that I unintentionally sidetracked the thread with? I didn't expect it to go on so long.
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P.S. Phil I don't know if you could get Tom to delete all the spell checker stuff that I unintentionally sidetracked the thread with? I didn't expect it to go on so long.
Already requested, Santa, as soon as I set up the Waterfox thread.
** Phil.
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Already requested, Santa, as soon as I set up the Waterfox thread.
** Phil.
Thanks Phil.
Now, that base: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?action=profile;u=1186;area=showposts;start=130
I swear, if you took every base that's been published on the forum and mixed them all up then you'd probably end up with Andy's base! Have you ever seen a base with so many ingredients? I'll be making it though when I've gathered the ingredients I'm lacking ... which is most!
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It is certainly a long winded recipe with lots of ingredients. I was just posting about his "scale" thoughts. It certainly may take my recent inquiry about using Fennel bulb. It has everything but in it. It is interesting to read CA's take on it very late in the thread, where he says that Stage 1 is a good base for mild curries but after Stage 2 spices are added it would be unsuitable for Korma, Passanda etc.
PS: The spell checker section had me stretched. ??? Glad you're trying to have it removed.
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Stage 1 is a good base for mild curries but after Stage 2 spices are added it would be unsuitable for Korma, Passanda etc.
It's an issue I have with many of the bases we see on this forum, some of which claim to be from genuine BIRs. A long time ago I proposed that the true test of a base was whether it could be used in a korma or not. That would be even more the case with mango chicken for example. It just seems obvious to me that you can't use a well-seasoned base for a korma because it wouldn't be palatable to the people who eat it. Most people who choose to eat Korma do so because it's sweet, lacking in spice and in particular lacking in chilli heat.
That's why I'm a proponent of bases like Kris Dhillon's because it's really neutral and can be used in anything. You can always add spicing at the curry stage but you can't take it out if it's already in the base.
Fortunately for me I can't abide most mild/creamy "curries" so I'd be quite happy with this base.
Also I'm wondering if this subject shouldn't be moved to an "Andy's curries" thread as it's not totally on topic here.
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By 1st February 2007 Andy had clearly become totally p1ss@d off with the negativity he was receiving, and posted no more. A great loss to the forum, IMHO, and one we have seen over and over again.
I don't think you were on the forum at that time Pete and it wasn't as clean cut as it may seem now. I think this is the Andy who went on to form the RCR forum. And notwithstanding the interesting recipes he submitted, my limited memory of that time was that his sole intention was to drum up support for that forum. I have a feeling that might be why the posts were "archived".
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Having recently tried the KD base, I would have to agree with you SS. Having also recently tried Latif's base as well, I would not say his could be used in a Korma, or at least not a mild Korma as I'd expect it to be served. I did however still enjoy Latif's base very much for more spicy curries. Horses for courses as they say.
Andy's curry base could well be a very versatile gravy. At the end of stage 1) it could be split and some spiced, some left neutral. Something to consider for the next banquet night. It could work well indeed.
As for Andy's departure from this forum, it was before my time but there seemed to be a couple of protagonists that appeared to be pretty relentless in attacking him (and CP). It is a shame if his intentions were good. The forum has missed out on quite a bit I'd say, but others may disagree. As I say, before my time so I can't really have a valid informed opinion. I wasn't there at the time. I did briefly join RCR before I found CRo and the first thing I had to do to be able see anything was make an international funds transfer. I was reading some stuff over there this morning as a result of a google search link, and it was all about not being able to see unless you subscribed. Nothing posted publicly but available if you paid up..
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"2 teaspoons of chilli in 10 fl oz of sauce is not twice as hot as 1 teaspoon of chilli in 10 fl oz of sauce. This applies to all ingredients and the tastes that they produce"
I agree 100% with the first half of this comment. I would assert the other half should read "This applies to some other ingredients...."
Chilli is definitely non linear in scaling upwards. As we are rarely likely to cook actual dish quantities less than a single serve, scaling chilli down will never be an issue. Scaling down a base gravy, even like Andy's or Latif's heavily spiced ones, does not involve a lot of chilli, if any at all, and so it becomes irrelevant really, in the context of base gravy.
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"2 teaspoons of chilli in 10 fl oz of sauce is not twice as hot as 1 teaspoon of chilli in 10 fl oz of sauce. This applies to all ingredients and the tastes that they produce
All I can say about that is that the chilli heat is directly attributable to the quantity of capsaicin released into the oil from the chilli. And, all things being equal, a doubling of chilli in the same quantity of oil, cooked the same way, will double the quantity of capsaicin in the oil.
So, unless the taste buds are non-linear in their response to capsaicin (a quick Google did not enlighten me), a doubling of chilli will double the chilli heat. But capsaicin desensitisation is a well known effect that will undoubtedly complicate the effect.
In general I would say that Phil's statement is demonstrably incorrect.
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In general I would say that Phil's statement is demonstrably incorrect.
Andy's statement. Everything in string quotes is quoted verbatim from Andy. But I agree with his analysis on empirical grounds.
** Phil.
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Mulling as to how one could test the theory I recalled the Scoville scale in which chilli heat is measured. And from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale) we get:
A weakness of the Scoville organoleptic test is its imprecision due to human subjectivity, depending on the taster's palate and number of mouth heat receptors, which vary widely among people.[1][4] Another weakness is sensory fatigue;[1] the palate is quickly desensitized to capsaicinoids after tasting a few samples within a short time period.[9] Results vary widely (up to
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As for Andy's departure from this forum, it was before my time but there seemed to be a couple of protagonists that appeared to be pretty relentless in attacking him
You say attacking, I would say rigorously questioning his motive and authenticity both of which were ultimately proven to be dubious. He succeeded in building a base clientelle for his fledgling forum RCR (his real motive) and the Indian restaurant he claimed to work for didn't exist (authenticity, or lack therof).
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You say attacking, I would say rigorously questioning his motive and authenticity both of which were ultimately proven to be dubious. He succeeded in building a base clientele for his fledgling forum RCR (his real motive) and the Indian restaurant he claimed to work for didn't exist (authenticity, or lack therof).
As I read only Andy's messages and not (most of) the replies thereto, I will have missed this. To save me (and perhaps others) searching, could you provide a link to the message in which his putative restaurant was shewn not to exist ?
** Phil.
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could you provide a link to the message in which his putative restaurant was shewn not to exist ?
** Phil.
I could not. I'm afraid it's from memory only though it was all on the open forum at the time. The restaurant he claimed to work at was shown to be a defunct restaurant he had pulled randomly (I assume) from the web. You'll note (or perhaps not if you haven't read it all) that he was constantly evasive when asked and then when one member wanted to visit, at his open invitation, that's when he left the forum.
It was important to his ruse that he establish some authenticity to attract members to his rival forum.
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All I got was that it was supposedly a restaurant and associated Takeaway in Leeds and one of the chefs was from Bradford.
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All I got was that it was supposedly a restaurant and associated Takeaway in Leeds and one of the chefs was from Bradford.
Yes that was the claim. But it was never proven.
There were pictures posted of the defunct takeaway (or maybe links to the pictures, I don't recall exactly). There seems to be some stuff still missing but it could be buried in another thread. You know how these threads wander from the initial premise.
And his use of the term cilantro for coriander just didn't lend credence to his Leeds/Bradford/Yorkshire supposed roots. Brits do not call coriander cilantro. The only time I've ever heard it referred that way is in the USA and maybe countries that are AmE speakers.
Ultimately, in spite of the fact that the recipes seemed authentic, and even then there was well founded suspicion of plagiarism. his back story didn't really hold up. I'd put more meat on the bones of what is just ancient history now anyway but my memory just isn't up to it. I've even tried this base recipe and I don't remember doing that but it couldn't have impressed all that much or I would have stuck with it.
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I have found the "other thread" but I shall refrain from posting a link until I have had a chance to check the facts ...
Which I have now done. It's a pretty messy episode, and I can see no value in posting a link to the thread, but I will send one privately on request.
** Phil.
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That's how I read it Phil. Clearly a divided period of the forum which resulted in the forum dividing.
SS, I read that whole thread yesterday morning and I recall the Cilantro Coriander exchange, among others. Whether his explanation was plausible for the location and consistent with produce suppliers terminology of the time is unknown to me. It's there for others to read if they choose.
Anyway, ancient history and as CT said elsewhere, of zero value really. I'm pleased however, that the actual recipes are out of archives so they are again publicly available for those interested in trying them. Maybe some thoughtful trimming and relocation of those threads is possible 1.
Out of curiosity, I intend on making a sample of his base, in linearly scaled proportional quantity (but Not half. Perhaps a quarter will work). ;) I don't require another 5 or 6 litres of base gravy at the moment. I will divide what I make at the end of Stage 1) to keep some as neutral before spicing the remainder. I'll have to go to the Asian Grocer to get some radish.
1. I'm not suggesting censorship and disposal of the entire threads. Just extraction of his listed recipes with directly related member comment and recommendations, adjustments etc. A big job I know.
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"2 teaspoons of chilli in 10 fl oz of sauce is not twice as hot as 1 teaspoon of chilli in 10 fl oz of sauce. This applies to all ingredients and the tastes that they produce
All I can say about that is that the chilli heat is directly attributable to the quantity of capsaicin released into the oil from the chilli. And, all things being equal, a doubling of chilli in the same quantity of oil, cooked the same way, will double the quantity of capsaicin in the oil.
So, unless the taste buds are non-linear in their response to capsaicin (a quick Google did not enlighten me), a doubling of chilli will double the chilli heat. But capsaicin desensitisation is a well known effect that will undoubtedly complicate the effect.
In general I would say that Phil's statement is demonstrably incorrect.
OK, so please consider the following :
All randomized subjects with at least one follow-up value on the capsaicin test were included in the Intent-to-Treat (ITT) population. A drop-out analysis between subjects excluded from the ITT population versus the ones included was intended on all available baseline data to evaluate whether there were any significant differences. All enrolled subjects who received at least one completed dose of the randomized capsaicin/placebo treatment were included in the safety population. For the primary and secondary analyses of the capsaicin values, logarithmic values of the capsaicin levels were analysed due to the exponential nature of capsaicin doses.
"[T]he exponential nature of capsaicin doses", would, if Ternesten-Hass
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+1
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Another complicating factor (and one of which I was blissfully unaware)
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OK, so please consider the following :
...For the primary and secondary analyses of the capsaicin values, logarithmic values of the capsaicin levels were analysed due to the exponential nature of capsaicin doses.
"[T]he exponential nature of capsaicin doses", would, if Ternesten-Hass
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As above, the non-linearity is a supposition on your part at this time and not yet proven. So any conclusions you draw from it are currently nullified.
I may address your other points later, Santa, but this one I would like to address now. I am not seeking to draw conclusions from the supposed non-linearity; I am seeking scientific justifications which might explain it, since I am by no means the only person to believe that twice the base does not require twice the chilli.
** Phil.
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I am by no means the only person to believe that twice the base does not require twice the chilli.
Are we considering only base sauces? I wasn't aware of that.
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No, I'm using "base" only for simplicity; after all, it is by no means clear that if I normally cook one chicken breast and add three ladles of stock, then were I to cook two chicken breasts I would need to add six. Rather than getting side-tracked by (important) questions such as this, I wanted to stick to something simpler so we might all be able to reach agreement.
** Phil.
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By the way, I am not ignoring your "if I cook two identical curries ..." gedankenexperiment, it's just that my brain hurts every time I try to reconcile it with my own hypothesis ...
** Phil.
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By the way, I am not ignoring your "if I cook two identical curries ..." gedankenexperiment, it's just that my brain hurts every time I try to reconcile it with my own hypothesis ...
It's more than a thought experiment Phil, I have actually cooked a curry and then as nearly identical as I can manage a double quantity curry with doubled quantities for all ingredients and I can't detect any difference.
Full disclosure; that was a while ago and I intend to try again to see if anything has changed (for me).
Oh and on the assumption that there really is a need to reduce the chilli when multiplying volumes, there is an answer. It's simply that the methods by which the two curries were cooked differed, even if that isn't immediately apparent. Larger volumes, longer cooking times. More stewing than frying due to larger volume. Etc., etc. It's helpful to think in extremes to bring out the point. So in this case it'd be a single portion versus a staff curry for example.
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To a person desensitised, accustomed or addicted to chilli, the directly proportional increase by using linear scaling would most likely be tolerable or possibly even enjoyable and expected. On the other end of the scale the resultant dish would probably be completely unpalettable. SS, your explanation of cooking 2 small dishes and combining them is valid, as is your suggested explanation of the change in cooking conditions due to increased volume. It may well be the case that the direct doubling of chilli simply isn't necessary, as opposed to incorrect and damaging, although there is ample anecdotal and instructional discussion to suggest otherwise. In bulk cooking, it is common practise to follow the non-linear increase in spices. This does not include all spices but it isn't restricted to chilli. I've previously found information related to this and listing other spices that are often scaled non-proportionally. Cinnamon, nutmeg, cardamom and vanilla for example. Some would include Cumin as well.
Nearly 4 years ago I was asked to do a bulk cook of several dishes for 40 people and as they were mainly children with disabilities, it was requested that the curries be mild. I did a lot of research at the time, found the information relating to the rule of X1.5 per double volume, experimented with it and ended up following that approach. The resulting dishes were exactly what I was aiming to achieve and when I'm asked to do it again in 6 months, i will again be using non-linear scaling.
Base gravy is possibly not the best object for this discussion. Low level if any chilli and I'm still presently of the opinion that because of this, base gravy is able to be scaled proportionally.
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Base gravy is possibly not the best object for this discussion. Low level if any chilli and I'm still presently of the opinion that because of this, base gravy is able to be scaled proportionally.
Yes, that is why I used base in the earlier discussion. I was taking the volume of base as a good indicator of the intended size of the final dish, so by comparing the volume of chilli with the volume of base we are effectively looking at the relationship between chilli content and final dish size.
** Phil.
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Nearly 4 years ago I was asked to do a bulk cook of several dishes for 40 people and as they were mainly children with disabilities, it was requested that the curries be mild. I did a lot of research at the time, found the information relating to the rule of X1.5 per double volume, experimented with it and ended up following that approach. The resulting dishes were exactly what I was aiming to achieve and when I'm asked to do it again in 6 months, i will again be using non-linear scaling.
Can you expand a bit on that x1.5 per doubling? Is it that if you double, then rather than doubling the chilli you only increase by 1.5? And if doubling again, and again ... then what?
There's an implicit, logical dead-end to that rule. If we continue to increase the size of the cooking pot at some point there will be no need for any spices at all! It's the cooking equivalent of perpetual motion. It's just not logical.
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Not a dead-end, Santa
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All,
I have followed this since the first post and I think the question was asked and several answers were given, all of which seemed to conclude the discussion.
I am confused but also intrigued by the subsequent diversions that number many different topics other than the OP was about.
Increased Oil,
Scaling ingredients.
Increased cooking times.
Different cooking methods.
Increased sensitivity to 'heat'
Different expectations.
Other reasons.
I think it is time for this discussion to end and there is room for several other new threads to be started based on what has been contributed here maybe?
A few suggestions:
"Scaling of Spices"
"How cooking times effect Flavours/Spicing"
"Palate changes over time"
"What to drink/not to drink when eating a spicy dish"
etc.
Regards,
BAJ
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Scaling of Spices.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=15119.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=15119.0)
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I believe bunjarra is a much undervalued component, increasingly omitted by BIRs as it takes too much manual labour to produce it, but when added to the precooks of the veg and meat, it introduces "the taste" into the final dishes.
Let me say however, I do not have a good bunjarra recipe and don't think the Ashoka one which is on this forum is especially close to what I'm seeking. A very long cook which lets the deep savoury spice flavours leach into the oil and onions seems essential, with Asian bay being a key component.
Sverige, I don't know if you've ever tried this, but I have and I've revisited again with a batch today. Masala Mark's Aussie IR Onion Gravy. It's actually more a paste really.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4923.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4923.0) This sounds to be almost exactly what you are describing. I've used both the method and also these pastes in other cooking along more BIR style as well. This onion gravy is pretty tasty and could do the trick for you. I make 1/2 quantity usually.
I've also made a 1/4 quantity of Masala Mark's Tomato Gravy. This too is really quite delicious.
Thanks Livo. I haven
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a couple of days ago I arranged with a friend to come over for an experimental curry for lunch. I got caught up in stuff so I got back to my home after he did.
I walk in, say hi, head to the kitchen, and 30 minutes later we are both sitting down to a wonderful spicy BIR type curry which, if I hadn't made a mistake with the meat texture, I would have been happy to have had delivered from a local curry house .
I am not "there", but "there" is in sight for me and just needs more practice to be "here" instead ;D
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Pre-prepared base, or everything made from scratch in 30 minutes ?
** Phil.
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Pre-prepared base, or everything made from scratch in 30 minutes ?
** Phil.
I had base gravy from a jar (pressure caned home made), but the 30 minutes included taking the meat out of the fridge.
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[...] the 30 minutes included taking the meat out of the fridge.
But not bringing it up to room temperature (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=11088.msg133499#msg133499), clearly !
** Phil.
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Could be done.
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[...] the 30 minutes included taking the meat out of the fridge.
But not bringing it up to room temperature (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=11088.msg133499#msg133499), clearly !
** Phil.
nope! I was a terrible host :o ;D
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Could be done.
Ah, la chambr
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Lost me at "la" I'm afraid. My full year of French lessons, at age 13, taught me to say I was Jean Clune, even though I wasn't, count to 10 and sing, but not understand, Frere Jacques. I could never do the throat thing either and assigning gender to inanimate objects was simply bonkers. I do remember the teacher fondly though. She used to write on the chalkboard at a downhill angle from left to right. The whole class one time arranged to all lean over a little bit while her back was turned. We thought it was hilarious but she didn't share the feeling.
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for me, getting "there" means I can turn out a curry that tastes good, that my audience enjoys, along with pilau rice, in just as short a time as I could turn out spaghetti with some pasta sauce.
I am not quite "there" yet, but I can see "there" not far away, and that is thanks to y'all on this forum here. Thank you, everyone.
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on Saturday, 2 friends came over for dinner. She's from Norwich, he's local.
Menu: Lamb Madras, Lamb Korma, Goan pork Vindaloo (I posted the recipe), pilau rice, tarka dal. Dessert was gulab jamun. I put all of those on the table in about an hour.
My toe is over the line of "there" (I got the timing on the vindaloo wrong), and it's thanks to the recipes, hints, tricks, and so on posted here and shared so generously by all of you. Thanks for your help :)
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[...] My toe is over the line of "there" (I got the timing on the vindaloo wrong), and it's thanks to the recipes, hints, tricks, and so on posted here and shared so generously by all of you. Thanks for your help :)
On my part, at least, "you are very welcome". And many congratulations on the success of your multi-dish meal. I very rarely go that far, prefering in general to concentrate on getting one main dish as close to perfection as I can manage, and accompanying it by (at most) pulao rice and/or paratha. Mushroom bhaji or saag aloo only very occasionally as side dishes, and even then, only on special occasions.
** Phil.