Curry Recipes Online

Curry Base Recipes => Curry Sauce, Curry Base , Curry Gravy Recipes, Secret Curry Base => Topic started by: Peripatetic Phil on December 13, 2018, 08:26 PM

Title: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 13, 2018, 08:26 PM
As longer-serving residents of this forum will know, I have long been a fan of Kris Dhillon, and regard her The Curry Secret as an excellent introduction to the art of BIR cuisine.  Her recipes and methodology are characterised by simplicity, and can produce excellent results without tweaking.  I have tried more complex bases, but none seem to offer any significant improvement over hers, so I thought that it might be helpful if I document how I now make her base.  The ingredients that she lists are as follows, with my comments in parentheses —
So, my ingredients and Kris's are very similar, and the main difference lies in the manner of preparation.  I refer the interested reader to Kris's book for a detailed description of her methodology, but in essence all the vegetables are boiled together and then liquidised.  Then Kris adds the liquidised tomatoes, oil, spices, etc., brings back to the boil, cooks again and so on.  My method is as follows :
Job done.  To my mind this produces a first-class base suitable for any curry; it is relatively light on tomato, definitely light on spicing, and has no one stand-out flavour that might not work with some dishes.  Do please give it a try and let me know what you think.

Afterthoughts — after liquidising, I bring it back to the boil (lid off), then allow it to simmer until the oil comes out.  I don't bother to refrigerate it — I just leave it in the pressure cooker and bring it back to the boil (lid off) once a day, thinning down with more boiling water if necessary, until it is all gone.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 13, 2018, 08:58 PM
Does kd use oil? How much do you use Phil?
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 13, 2018, 09:31 PM
Oops, sorry, omitted that originally.  Now added.  Eight tablespoons.  Many thanks for pointing it out, Livo.
** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 13, 2018, 11:38 PM
 ;) I wish I'd found her book nearly 30 years ago.  I'll give this a go when I do my next base.  This is one I haven't yet tried (from memory) along with the Glasgow base.  I may have tried it back before I found this forum when I was a paid up member of RCR in around 2011 or 12.  I seem to recall there was a whole section devoted to KD recipes, but I also recall at the time being quite overwhelmed by the complexity of the whole thing and what they called the Melting Base.   

I don't think I've made a single base more than a couple of times yet and some only once as I made full quantities and used frozen for ages.  I've actually thrown base out simply because I've wanted to try a new one and didn't have freezer space.  So far though, I'd say my favourite has been the chicken infused version of Chewy's 3 hour base gravy.  This just really struck me as a nice curry base.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Secret Santa on December 14, 2018, 01:23 PM
;) I wish I'd found her book nearly 30 years ago.  I'll give this a go when I do my next base.  This is one I haven't yet tried (from memory) along with the Glasgow base.

They're both great bases in my opinion and the Glasgow is currently my standard base. Definitely give both a try. Most current bases are too complicated in my opinion with all but the kitchen sink thrown in but these two are, in comparison, relatively simple and neutral bases.

Kris Dhillon's book was an absolute revelation at the time and really showed the BIR method and specifically the need for a well blended base sauce to get that BIR curry texture. Around the same time I had, I think, Pat Chapman's first book which while good didn't really provide the real technique for the base as his was more of a paste than a sauce (from memory, I might be wrong!).

It's incredible how much our collective knowledge has moved on since then. Alas I'm still looking for the last 5% though ... and firmly believe I'll never now achieve it.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 14, 2018, 02:22 PM
Alas I'm still looking for the last 5% though ... and firmly believe I'll never now achieve it.

Based purely on personal experience, I think that "the final 5%" will manifest itself in the realisation that you can consistently cook one dish as well as any restaurant or take-away with which you are familiar .  When you can say that, you have mastered the technique.  All that then remains is to apply that technique consistently but vary the recipe to try to replicate the other dishes that you seek to make.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Dajoca on December 17, 2018, 12:43 PM
Thanks for this explanation Phil.
I will try this method for my next base, as I have previously had no luck with the KD Curry secret base,
It always smelled awful and tasted like boiled sick, so was quickly thrown away.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 17, 2018, 03:43 PM
Hi would you confirm 120ml of oil is used, I make this eight times 15ml.
Thanks
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 17, 2018, 08:26 PM
Excess oil is removed from the base gravy right at the end of cooking. Phil has already stipulated that amount but you could use more, or less, as you choose, or just use the stated amount.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 17, 2018, 08:37 PM
Hello, why would you remove your tasty oil from your gravy please? I believed restaurant curry is requiring the additional oil to fry rather than boil a curry. Would you explain please and why advise changing recipe.
Thanks
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 17, 2018, 08:39 PM
Thanks for this explanation Phil.
I will try this method for my next base, as I have previously had no luck with the KD Curry secret base,
It always smelled awful and tasted like boiled sick, so was quickly thrown away.

You must be doing something wrong for any base gravy to give a result like that.  Base gravy will not in itself be a delicious sauce but it should certainly not have the awful characteristics you describe. Base gravy needs to be edible even if a little bland.  Recheck your spice quantities. Excessive use of Turmeric is what leaps to the front of my mind from your description.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 17, 2018, 08:45 PM
Hello, why would you remove your tasty oil from your gravy please? I believed restaurant curry is requiring the additional oil to fry rather than boil a curry. Would you explain please.
Excess oil is often skimmed from the base gravy and after finished dish preparation. Some oil is required to be left in the end curry but the amount is subject to personal preference.  This excess oil is often kept, as spiced oil, and used in the prep of actual curry dishes. The repeated process of adding and removing oil builds extra spice depth in the reclaimed oil and hence the dishes cooked. 

Do a search for spiced oil.  Oil content in base gravy is widely discussed on the forum. You will never be able to reclaim 100% of the oil in the base gravy and you wouldn't want to.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 19, 2018, 04:43 PM
I don't remove any oil from the base (apart from anything else, a good film of oil on the surface will help to prevent the base from festering when stored at room temperature), but I do remove some oil from the finished dish if it appears excessive..  There certainly needs to be some  oil on the finished dish. but not so much as to drown it ...

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 19, 2018, 05:15 PM
I don't remove any oil from the base (apart from anything else, a good film of oil on the surface will help to prevent the base from festering when stored at room temperature), but I do remove some oil from the finished dish if it appears excessive..  There certainly needs to be some  oil on the finished dish. but not so much as to drown it ...

** Phil.

Hello, why would you remove your tasty oil from your gravy please? I believed restaurant curry is requiring the additional oil to fry rather than boil a curry. Would you explain please and why advise changing recipe.
Thanks
Phil I was hopeful for this response,  I read it’s your preferred base gravy. Your advice makes complete sense to me and mirrors my findings. Removing oil from base to add back to base gravy can’t be correct or productive   ::)  on a brighter note my KD books arrived today.
Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 19, 2018, 05:38 PM
My pleasure, and sorry for the delay in replying — I had to drive some 700 miles (in total) to attend a funeral, so was away for a few days.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 20, 2018, 07:48 AM
My pleasure, and sorry for the delay in replying — I had to drive some 700 miles (in total) to attend a funeral, so was away for a few days.

** Phil.

Phil as this is your KD thread I will assume the topic of KD individual spicing for curry is relevant, can I ask your opinion on the subject of spicing please. Would your experience advise following KD’s use of individual  spices or a generic mix of powder?
Thanks
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 20, 2018, 08:52 AM
 ???
Can't wait to see where this goes.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 20, 2018, 11:08 AM
For most of my BIR life I have followed Kris Dhillon's advice and used individual spices (although I tend to use rather more than she recommends), and I have never understood the logic of using a so-called "mix powder" that contains "curry powder", itself variable and a virtual unknown.  However, when I was in Abu Dhabi I picked up some commercial pre-made masalas  (http://www.mehrangroup.com/product/2) by a company called Mehran — these included Mehran Fry/Karahi Gosht Masala , Mehran Chicken/Mutton Masala, and a few others, and I have recently been using these as a basis, augmenting them with MDH Kashmiri mirch (for colour) and MDH Degghi Mirch (for heat), along with a teaspoon of black salt / kala namak.  I (and others) was/were very impressed by just how good the results turned out to be, so I can now see some merit in using a pre-made masala, but the idea of making and using a so-called "mix powder" which contains in addition to some arbitrary (and often unspecified) curry powder anywhere between five and eight of the spices that are almost certainly already present in  the curry powder continues to strike me as bizarre in the extreme.  By all means formulate your own preferred blend of spices, but have control by using individual spices in your formulation rather than relying on generic "curry powder" and then effectively attempting to adjust its proportions.

Incidentally, Mrs Bari kindly allowed me into her kitchen at the Golden Temple in Bodmin, and she has ten spice tubs permanently on display behind the range; I asked her what was in each of these (some I recognised, some I did not) and eight were individual spices (she grinds all of her own spices, with the probable exception of turmeric).  She referred to the other two as "my garam masalas", and they were noticeably different from each other.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 20, 2018, 11:03 PM
Good answer Phil.  There appears to be agreement that the KD base gravy is a good one but the approval of her dish recipes is not quite as solid. I guess a personal choice needs to be made as to whether to proceed down the individual spice route or use blended powders. I see a use for both in different situations.

You raise a point that did my head in when I first started this "hobby".  To my mind the inclusion of a "curry powder" as an ingredient to make "curry powder" was just so utterly confusing. It made no sense to me at all.  Why not just give the ratio formula of the individual spices to go into the final powder and make it?  It's like using a word in the definition of that same word. I struggled to understand it but eventually realised that it just didn't really matter.  I had to ignore my inner brain squirming around in discomfort and accept that this is just the way BIR is done. It's the end result that matters.  The food on the plate.

I regularly research and experiment with masala blends, mixed powders and pastes.  I've recently found 2 different formula for Madras Curry Powder that I will try out very soon.  One in particular. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24CfBr5t1Fs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24CfBr5t1Fs)  It is claimed by the presenter to be identical to the brand commonly found in "the green can",  This could be one of at least 5 different labels packaged in green cans being, Ship, Camel, Indian Classic, Kitchen Xpress or Mother's Recipe.  Probably Mother's Recipe but the mystery has me hooked.  I've tried some proprietary masalas that are terrible and others that are amazingly good.

To put the discussion back on topic, I read this thread from late 2005 to early 2008 on the KD Base Gravy.  http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=579.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=579.0). I can see that you have tweaked her recipe only very slightly Phil.   I'm puzzled by reply number 8, page 1, where out of nowhere comes the question of how long you can keep spice oil.  There is no prior mention of reclaiming spice oil from this base gravy.

This short 1 page thread from 2006 gives a chefs opinion (Spanish Indian Restaurant) of the ingredient ratios in the KD base. It is quickly derailed though into a discussion about Lemon Juice in CTM and Mustard seeds in Madras. http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=695.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=695.0).  The key points made by the chef was not enough tomato and no seasoning as in Garam Masala. Once you start adding more onion, as he also suggested, you just get into a larger quantity overall which the OP has covered.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 21, 2018, 02:03 AM
A good read Livo, it seems extra/hot’s post about a Spanish curry house is not overwhelmingly impressive or convincing. As we read on I get the impression the non bir additions derailed the thread as a bit or a red herring. The point about spiced oil is in keeping with our current KD topic, Phil also made no mention of spiced oil in his original recipe. Later Phil confirms no reclaiming of base oil. But it’s randomly added in post number 8 by yourself.
(How about that for a spooky coincidence) ;)
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 21, 2018, 08:38 AM
Just to clarify.  There is no spiced oil in my base, nor do I believe that there should be — IMHO, a base exists primarily to contribute onion, garlic and ginger to the final dish, as well as texture ("mouth feel"); the main spicing should take place later when the final dish is made, therby allowing each dish to be unique [1].  I do not reclaim any spiced oil from my base (a) because there is insufficient to be worth reclaiming (and what there is, is too mildly spiced to really qualify as "spiced oil"), and (b) because I believe that the oil content of the base is an intrinsic part of it.  I do, however, reclaim spiced oil from the final dish, because I prefer to cook in an excess of oil and then remove some just before serving.

** Phil.

[1] I understand that the Glasgow base takes the opposite approach, and endeavours to pack as much spicing as possible into itself.  I do not claim that this is wrong, just a very different approach.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 21, 2018, 09:55 AM
But it’s randomly added in post number 8 by yourself.
(How about that for a spooky coincidence) ;)

Not the first odd coincidence I've had lately. 

Excess oil is the term I used in reply #8 and stated that it would be skimmed as the last step of a base gravy, if it were to be collected that is. It may not be required with this base gravy.  As Phil correctly points out it would have very minimal / negligent spicing anyway, but could still be collected and kept for re-use in some other process. Some people may feel it necessary to remove obvious excess oil from a base gravy. Others may not and Phil has said that he doesn't.  It would depend on the base gravy recipe used, hence the amount of oil used and the preference of the cook. 

I again referred to Excess oil recovery from base gravy at the beginning of Reply #11 and went on to discuss oil removed after the curry dish is prepared. This post dish recovered oil may be considered spiced oil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 21, 2018, 11:56 AM
Hi would you confirm 120ml of oil is used, I make this eight times 15ml.
Thanks

Not necessarily.

US 8 Tbsp = 118.3 ml
UK 8 Tbsp =  142.1 ml
AUS 8 Tbsp = 160 ml

This question is why I, for a reason, made the comment I did about the process of removing "Excess oil", if and when required. I'm in Australia and could have excess while a US reader, and yourself, could have insufficient or the correct amount depending on KD's original recipe conversion factors.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 21, 2018, 12:22 PM
US 8 Tbsp = 118.3 ml
UK 8 Tbsp =  142.1 ml
AUS 8 Tbsp = 160 ml

I would (very respectfully) disagree with the first two.  When measuring one tablespoon of oil, even if using a calibrated measure, the degree of uncertainty makes a precision of 0.1 ml impossible to achieve.  I would very much doubt whether a precision of even 1ml is achievable.  Therefore I would express the first two as "about 120 ml" and "about 140 ml" respectively — any greater precision should be treated with considerable caution.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 21, 2018, 01:21 PM
A good correction Phil. 120ml give or take is the average.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 21, 2018, 03:01 PM
Incidentally, intrigued to learn that a UK tablespoon is not 15 ml as I had previously (and wrongly) assumed. I measured my "Vogue" tablespoon measuring spoon using a Volac B.S. 604 measuring cylinder, (standardised at 20C, the temperature of my kitchen) with units of 0.5 ml at a 2 mm vertical separation.  Being careful not to disturb the meniscus, I transferred the contents (which were cold tap water) of my measuring spoon into the measuring cylinder using a pipette, To the best of my judgement, the cylinder indicated 16¾ ml.  Oil would probably give a more rounded meniscus than water, so Google's 17.7582 ml (ridiculously over-precise, and allowing also for pipetting losses) may well be about right ...

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 21, 2018, 03:16 PM
Ok :D let’s be realistic about bir, we are discussing practices and replication of Restaurant/Ta cooking this being KD’s end goal for us the reader. Most ingredients are eyeballed, not scientifically calculated “Chuckitinabucket” meaning a precise measurement would be inconsistent with replication.
A minefield for the OCD
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 21, 2018, 03:44 PM
I rarely measure or time things (microwave rice being an exception to the latter) and think in terms of teaspoons, tablespoons and so on rather than these modern metric thingies, but on cooking a lamb karahi today, using MDH Karahi Gosht masala, I confess that I weighed the lamb, the onions and the masala.  The reason was that this was the first time for some time that I had used MDH KGM, and I wanted to be sure that I knew my starting point if I wanted to repeat (or modify) the dish in the future.  For the record, the pack recipe is in terms of 500 gm lamb; I had 800, so rounded everything up by a factor of 8/5 (approx); they recommended 10–15 gm masala, I used 25; they recommended 160 gm onions, I used 230 and so on.  I won't be following their recipe to the letter (far from it, in fact, in that I am not planning to add any water or base at all, at least until the lamb is soft enough to eat — the lamb has exuded more than enough natural juices to cook in, so adding water or base at this stage (they recommend two cups of water) would be completely unnecessary, IMHO).

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 21, 2018, 09:37 PM
I agree with all of this. Some aspects of Indian cookery are as far removed from precision as any style can be.

It would be difficult to remove the full contents of any measure of oil and I'm in no way suggesting you should, or even can, use 118.3 ml.  Completely unnecessary and ridiculous. By its own physical property of coating surfaces you will obviously end up with less. My point was to illustrate a 25 - 30% variation either way depending on locally available utensils. This is not insignificant and the reasoning behind my earlier post about excess oil removal, following the questioning of the already correctly provided amount.  This questioning appeared to me to be about the level of oil more so than the actual measured volume and so my post was not "random".  Either that or someone wanted a sticker for getting the multiplication of 8 X 15 correct.  ;D.

Levels of base oil has been widely discussed. So too has spiced oil. Different subjects.

To again bring it back to topic, I would go so far as to say that with only 2 spices in such low quantities, the KD base is very open to and tolerant of considerable inexact measurement.  At completion, and subject to individual preference, some excess (but not spiced) oil could be removed.  This alone is essentially all I said in the first place. ::)

Off topic comment. While irrelevant in BIR,  the variation in regional cup and spoon measures is critical to consider in fine bakery and pastries.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 21, 2018, 10:00 PM
I would go so far as to say that with only 2 spices in such low quantities, the KD base is very open to and tolerant of considerable inexact measurement.  At completion, and subject to individual preference, some excess (but not spiced) oil could be removed.

I'm not certain that it (the removal of excess oil, that is) would be possible, at least not using my revised methodology, since the end-point of day 1 is the blitzing, after which the base will be homogenised if not emulsified.  On day 2 I bring it back to the boil (gently !) "until the oil comes out", but if I were to remove the oil at this stage there would be no oil layer to stop the base from festering ...

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 21, 2018, 10:25 PM
I'm not saying it has to be done, or even can Phil.  You would know better than I with this particular base gravy.  I like oil and I'm not afraid of it as are some.  I eat heaps of fatty foods and my fasting lipids have never been cause for concern.  As I said very early, I'm yet to make this base (as far as I recall).  I'm fairly sure, however, that if extra oil were present (160 ml for example) and it was cooked to separation point, as is required in some base recipes, then oil could possibly be removed as the last step, if so desired.  Mind you I had all sorts of trouble obtaining oil separation with the Saffron base and it was meant to happen by cooking further after blitzing.  In some base recipes and subsequent discussion, oil separation is the indicator of completion.

When actually read, my original comment about oil was in response to CarpCarp appearing to question the "level of oiliness" in the base after you had already provided the quantitative answer to my initial question earlier.  What was CarpCarp actually asking?  My comment was a simple statement of what is done with some bases in general. Not specific to this recipe.

Here we are 3 pages later trying to explain the 2 sentences I wrote.  A simple statement of what could be done if CarpCarp (in his / her very 1st post on the forum) had any concern about your stated reaffirmation of KD's originally printed amount of oil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 22, 2018, 12:10 AM
A good correction Phil. 120ml give or take is the average.

Actually, the average of 118, 142 and 160 is precisely 140.  No smiley sticker for that calculation CarpCarp.  :( Plus, if the KD book, Phil and you use a UK measuring spoon the correct amount used is also 140 ml.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 22, 2018, 01:21 AM
Phil questions please, did you achieve good results with your lamb karahi today. I’m interested if you cooked out the lamb in the Karahi, constantly stirring and scraping. Or did you use previously prepared lamb and how was the MDH Karahi Gosht masala? Thanks.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 22, 2018, 08:51 AM
Not yet eaten the lamb, CC, other than to test it for softness.  I cooked it in a large round cast-iron casserole (Le Creuset or similar), starting by softening the onions until they were transparent, then adding the masala, stirring, mixing and cooking that with the onions until I judged that it was ready, then added the lamb and stirred and lifted it until all was evenly coated.  I then cooked it on a low heat with the lid on, stirring occasionally (after removing the lid !) and finally turned it off while I went off to the hotel.  When I got home circa 23:00 I checked that it was done (by eating one piece).  I noticed that the initial strongly-spiced and "edgy" flavour has now gone and I am left with a much milder spicing, so I will probably use it to make a more conventional curry (with g/g paste, fresh spices and base) when I am ready to eat it.  Not yet ready to try it today — too early in the morning, and much more like "time for coffee" than "time for curry" !

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 22, 2018, 09:50 AM
If the KD book, Phil and you use a UK measuring spoon the correct amount used is also 140 ml.

I have three editions of The Curry Secret, dated 1996, 2008 & 2011, and although over time Kris moves from an imperial system of weights and measures to a metric system (giving the other system in parentheses), at no point does she gloss "one tablespoon" or attempt to express it in more formal units.  However, the 2011 edition (The New Curry Secret) has a short chapter on weights and measures, and there she glosses one tablespoon as 15ml (UK), 14.8ml (USA) and 20ml (Oz).  She also writes "all spoon measurements are slightly rounded", which is also how I measure such things.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 22, 2018, 12:57 PM
Can't wait to see where this goes.

I'm yet to make this base (as far as I recall).

Oh, Boy!
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 22, 2018, 01:05 PM
Phil thank you for the detailed explanation, the lamb Kharhi sounds truly delicious and I hope it is just as tasty as you have detailed. I’m thoroughly enjoying my exploration into Kd’s books they truly are an assortment of joy and intrigue, i’m not fully decided on my next Curry endeavour. Perhaps you would kindly recommend a favourite for myself to work with. Thanks .
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 22, 2018, 01:35 PM
I really don't think you can go wrong by starting with her chicken curry / Madras / Vindaloo (all based on the same recipe) — the recipe and approach are simplicity itself, and to my mind unequivocally demonstrate that a 1st-class BIR chicken curry can be made without any need to fry the spices, contrary to widespread belief.  This is not to say that I do not fry spices myself — I often do — but I also know from first-hand experience that KD shews that it is not an essential prerequisite to making a good (and authentic) BIR-style curry. 

Incidentally, this  (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5223.msg51468#msg51468)is one of my variants on her chicken Madras; probably not the best recipe with which to start (stick to hers, I would say) but well worth progressing to once you have a feeling for the likely effect of a change of ingredients.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 22, 2018, 08:10 PM
Ouch!  :-X
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 22, 2018, 09:54 PM
Thank you Phil for the kind recommendation and link you provided, I will start with the basic Curry sauce and your interpretation. Over time I made Most of the recommendations for gravy on this forum including alternative forum favourites. KD’s gravy somehow slipped through my net. I am pleased with the results achievable,  imho it holds ground against the best and it’s simplicity’s are most effective. like most recipes it’s ultimately the techniques utilised that truly produce results. Technique being a real necessity to master before passing any judgement. Chicken Sagwala and Chicken Moghlai are on my todo list.
Also was my surprise to discover KD was a forum member some time ago.
Thanks
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Bob-A-Job on December 26, 2018, 02:30 PM
I had to check my measuring spoons after reading this thread yesterday and whether it is to make the maths simple or not, they are labelled as
1 tbl - 15ml
1 dst - 10ml
1 tsp - 5ml
1/2 tsp - 2.5ml.
Since 'wet' ingredients usually have a meniscus and always leave a coating behind, I have never been too scientific about exact measuring, especially if 'heaped' is used to describe some of the dry spices in the recipe and it also depends on the cooking temp and duration as well.

However, may I ask about the use of a pressure cooker? My parents had one in the mid/late 70's and my lasting memory of them is being shooed away into another room whilst they tried to remove the contents.  It was not unlike an episode of Danger UXB if you ever watched it.  So having never used one, I presume it merely cooks quicker without losing any moisture?  Would a large pan with secure lid and a sprinkle (scientific quantity ;) ) more water do the same job but take a lot longer?

Thanks in Advance.
BAJ
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 26, 2018, 03:30 PM
Hi, you will be just fine please don’t get hung up about scientific levels of ingredients, only for the obsessive, bir/Indian replication is the end goal! You wouldn’t need to increase the water for using a modern day pressure cookers, they tend not to vent but moderate the internal temperature. Care would need to be taken if your model vented throughout the cook.
Modern cookers controll pressure rather than the release method in the olden style cooking of your parents day. You will also find onions release a large amounts of their own water, liquid , this liquid is a important part of what makes a curry base a curry base gravy. Measuring spoon sounds exactly as I remember and Phil and myself have previously discussed , good luck and keep us updated.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 26, 2018, 04:03 PM
Phil I hope you don’t object to me posting ongoing updates involving KD’s base recipe on your thread? The subject title is relevant and will keep useful information in one place.

I had time today to prepare a vindaloo using KD’s base, I’m decided to make a large portion. In my opinion oil is a very important component to any hot curry, Jb once posted the takeaway he visits used a large ladle of oil to start a Madras.
Chicken meat used is leftover chopped breast from a Christmas dinner and resulted in an absolutely delicious vindaloo.
Spicing is simple, tsp1 salt 0.5 Cumin 0.5 Haldi 2 chill powder. My reason for such minimal spicing, I believe this base doesn’t need anything fancy.

Comparison rating against my local TA, 10/10.

My vindaloo no coriander to hand.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/199d27a7062940ab627490867a01300f.jpeg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#199d27a7062940ab627490867a01300f.jpeg)

TA Vindaloo.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/1f99d8b267e74bae9d8020df8c3b4bc4.jpeg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#1f99d8b267e74bae9d8020df8c3b4bc4.jpeg)
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Bob-A-Job on December 26, 2018, 04:14 PM
Hi CarpCarp,

Maybe my post didn't come across too clearly as I was trying to point out that scientific measurements were not practical.

My question about the pressure cooker was probably better stated as "I only have a bad experience from childhood, can I use a normal pan and add a little more water to compensate for evaporation during cooking?".

Thanks,
BAJ
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on December 26, 2018, 04:19 PM
Sounds good to me, I used a large stainless pot for years. Important to be a thicker bottom pot to prevent burning sticking. Thanks
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 26, 2018, 07:15 PM
However, may I ask about the use of a pressure cooker? My parents had one in the mid/late 70's and my lasting memory of them is being shooed away into another room whilst they tried to remove the contents.  It was not unlike an episode of Danger UXB if you ever watched it.  So having never used one, I presume it merely cooks quicker without losing any moisture?  Would a large pan with secure lid and a sprinkle (scientific quantity ;) ) more water do the same job but take a lot longer?

First of all, in my opinion modern pressure cookers are very safe when used correctly — mine is a Fagor, and I have never had anything untoward occur when using it.  I use it mainly for convenience — it breaks down the onions, ginger and garlic very successfully, it minimises fluid loss through evaporation, and it has a substantial solid base.  However, I have used a large saucepan, a large casserole, and even one of these modern electric soup-maker thingies, and as far as I am concerned all are fine.  My 2¾ pints water are exactly the same amount as KD stipulates, so I have made no adjustments for the use of a pressure cooker — if you plan to make yours without, just stick to the recommended 2¾ pints water would be my advice.  You may need to add water if the level appears to be dropping (something that is invisible, of course, when using a pressure cooker) but provided you plumb the level when you start and attempt to keep it constant, you should be fine.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Bob-A-Job on December 26, 2018, 08:53 PM
I wasn't sure if the benefit from cooking at a faster rate was to keep flavour in, which it probably does as there can't be any loss through evaporation.  I also wasn't sure if this was something used in BIR kitchens to accelerate the rate ingredients were available for orders.

I am cooking some beef on a very slow heat at the moment and will use some base I have left over from a previous member's recipe to try a bhuna but I am running out of base and almost out of onions, I have been browsing the last couple of days for a new base and decided to give this a go.

Thank you for clearing up my concerns.
BAJ
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 26, 2018, 09:01 PM
Phil I hope you don’t object to me posting ongoing updates involving KD’s base recipe on your thread? The subject title is relevant and will keep useful information in one place.

Absolutely not.

Quote
I had time today to prepare a vindaloo using KD’s base, I’m decided to make a large portion. In my opinion oil is a very important component to any hot curry, Jb once posted the takeaway he visits used a large ladle of oil to start a Madras.  Chicken meat used is leftover chopped breast from a Christmas dinner and resulted in an absolutely delicious vindaloo.  Spicing is simple, tsp1 salt 0.5 Cumin 0.5 Haldi 2 chill powder. My reason for such minimal spicing, I believe this base doesn’t need anything fancy.

Comparison rating against my local TA, 10/10.

Many many congratulations — 10/10 simply cannot be bettered,
** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on December 26, 2018, 09:05 PM
I am cooking some beef on a very slow heat at the moment and will use some base I have left over from a previous member's recipe to try a bhuna but I am running out of base and almost out of onions, I have been browsing the last couple of days for a new base and decided to give this a go.

I don't have any experience of using beef in a curry, but for me a bhuna should need little if any base,  Please see my "Baseless bhuna (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=14969.msg131046)" post for my thoughts on this subject.

** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Bob-A-Job on December 26, 2018, 09:57 PM
Quote
I don't have any experience of using beef in a curry, but for me a bhuna should need little if any base,  Please see my "Baseless bhuna (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=14969.msg131046)" post for my thoughts on this subject.

** Phil.

Haha, indeed, I am almost base less and having used Mutton, Lamb, Pork (yeah I know) and Beef in the past, having a little raw diced Beef left over, I thought since it was Christmas, I would do the right thing and use up the leftovers.  I can't say yet that it is going to be any good but "waste not, want not" and I thought worthy of a try.  I will be finished in a few hours, try to remember to take a photo or two and if it is any good, I will post them, if not, I am glad to see we don't have a "Hall of Shame" as I would probably have to post the pic there.  :-\
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: livo on December 26, 2018, 11:28 PM
Are you cooking in a commercial kitchen CarpCarp? or do you have an industrial cooktop at home?

Using a pressure cooker for base gravy is primarily about the speed of cooking (with the possible advantage of probably less mess). A 3 hour boiled pot base can be done in 1 hour as Chewy Tikka's examples illustrate very effectively. The same basic ingredients and the time taken is significantly reduced.  There should be very little discernible difference in the finished base gravy.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on January 06, 2019, 08:13 PM
Just about to bang out another batch of base tonight, I’m interested in the Makhan Chicken next.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 06, 2019, 08:30 PM
Crikey, you must make way more curries than I — I still have 1/3 of a batch left !
** Phil.
Title: Re: KD-base/PT
Post by: CarpCarp on January 06, 2019, 09:10 PM
Ha! Yes Phil I do a lot of cooking at home with a large family, some of my recent currys inclusive of large amounts of oil are bulk, whole Chicken used as described in topics.  So yes I’m definitely getting through the gravy. :) thanks.
P.s. did you say you made the Makhan?