Curry Recipes Online

Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: emin-j on December 11, 2011, 12:10 PM

Title: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 11, 2011, 12:10 PM
Hi all,
Made my usual Madras,Onion Bhaji's,Pilau Rice and Bombay Aloo last night but this time used fresh Garlic & Ginger  (lately been using frozen for convenience) plus added two tbs of Rajah Curry Powder and 1/2 tbs Garam Massala to CA's Spice Mix.
The Curry was good but not as good as our local t/a.
The Bhaji's were OK but not as good as our local t/a.
The Rice was good but not as good as our local t/a.
The Bombay Aloo was better than our local t/a  ;D
Have tried all methods,different Bases,different Spice Mixes etc etc  ::)
The odd occasion I have bettered our local t/a Curry but I just can't seem to match their Savoury flavour in such a light tasting Sauce,what I mean by light is the consistency plus the local t/a's seem more Orange coloured to my Brown  :-\ I have used Orange food colouring in the Base Sauce which did give the Base a nice Orange colour but once the Spice Mix is added to the final Curry it turns Brown !
This makes me think that the majority of the flavour comes from the Base and as most Base Sauces tend to be Yellow in Colour they only add minimal Spicing (Chili and ? ) to end up with the Orangey colour.
I seem to have tried most permutations of ingredients and methods but to match the depth of flavour I have to Spice the final Curry quite heavily (1tbs of Mix powder) but this results in a bit of a heavyish Brown Sauce.
Just seem to be running out of idea's  :-\ 
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Whandsy on December 11, 2011, 12:37 PM
Hi Emin-j
Have you tried these Bhajis
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4443.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4443.0)

If you look further down the 1st page there is a scaled down version of it and it's the one I now use. I find that recipe leaves the Bhaji a tad try so I add 2 dessert spoons of natural yogurt to it. I also use three quarters of a tsp of star anise pounded in a pestle and mortar instead of aniseed powder or fennel seeds.
As for the cooking, I have one of those cheap deep fat fryers that allow temperature control and so for 5 mins I cook them at 150c rotating them all the time and then crank them up to about 175c until they're the right colour. This cooks them all the way through.
This thread shows my results
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6343.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6343.0)
I think these are equal and better to a lot of takeaways ;)

regards

Wayne
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 11, 2011, 01:13 PM
Hi Emin-j
Have you tried these Bhajis
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4443.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4443.0)

If you look further down the 1st page there is a scaled down version of it and it's the one I now use. I find that recipe leaves the Bhaji a tad try so I add 2 dessert spoons of natural yogurt to it. I also use three quarters of a tsp of star anise pounded in a pestle and mortar instead of aniseed powder or fennel seeds.
As for the cooking, I have one of those cheap deep fat fryers that allow temperature control and so for 5 mins I cook them at 150c rotating them all the time and then crank them up to about 175c until they're the right colour. This cooks them all the way through.
This thread shows my results
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6343.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6343.0)
I think these are equal and better to a lot of takeaways ;)

regards

Wayne

Hi Wayne, Yes it is the IG Bhaji's I am currently making and I do use the Aniseed seeds plus some Cumin seeds but nothing comes close to our local t/a's  :(
The owner did tell me they fry their Bhaji's in Veg Gee  :o not sure I'm keen on trying that though !
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: martinvic on December 11, 2011, 01:32 PM
What spice mix are you using and what colour is it?

Only asking because the spice mixes I have used have all been quite light in colour, from yellow to light orange.
So that, with the yellowish base, doesn't turn the curry brown.
Then adding Kashmiri + ordinary chilli powder, in itself gives a nice colour without using food colouring.

Plus haven't heard of anyone colouring their base, I thought any colouring is only added to the curry you are cooking?

Martin
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 11, 2011, 01:46 PM
Hi emin-j,

The IG bhajis wre great at the time Axe posted them and really showed the perfect technique however, Chriswg developed it further using a combination of the Dipuraja bhaji and the IG bhaji and came up with this http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5057.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5057.0)

Now I've made these a thousand times and each batch has been perfect and bettered a good 95% of the TA bhajis around these parts.

Chris does mention further down in the thread that he thinks the addition of the lemon juice is a mistake based on a coversation he had with a TA chef, so leave that out.  I don't bother to add any asafoteda either but maybe you would like to?

As for the actual curry, my base is a light orange colour to start with but when I make a madras, I only add 1 tsp of gg paste, 1 tsp of spice mix, a good chefspoon of diluted tom puree (1:3 ratio of water), and 2-3 tsp of Kashmiri mirch. This gives my curry a very orange colour and the oil is almost red!  I've also started to add 1 star anise as soon as the oil goes in the pan but fishing it out before I plate up.  It's a little twist that really does add something to my Madras and almost replicates my local TA's Madras

FYI,

The base gravy I'm using is Chewys 3 hr base; http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5635.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5635.0)

The spice mix is my own http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4706.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4706.0)

Hope that helps mate?

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: PaulP on December 11, 2011, 06:29 PM
I know where Emin-j is coming from I think. Like him I usually use a full tablespoon of spice mix against 500 ml of base to make 2 small portions of curry. And yes my curries end up more brown than orange. Even with the new secret spice mix from ifindforu my curries are still lacking somewhat.

Even the Shere Khan chain TA in the food mall in Liverpool's St John's market has "the taste". Their food is not freshly cooked and sits unlovingly in heated trays on their food store. I think they use chicken thigh meat, probably cooked on the bone then separated. The meat is delicious and very tender.

On a brighter note I bought a Tescos chicken madras for lunch and had to put two thirds of it in the bin. I enjoy my own curries far more than any supermarket curry I've tried. I'll check out my new spice mix with either ifindforu's base or a chewytikka base and see where that gets me.

Cheers,

Paul
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 11, 2011, 06:57 PM
What spice mix are you using and what colour is it?

Only asking because the spice mixes I have used have all been quite light in colour, from yellow to light orange.
So that, with the yellowish base, doesn't turn the curry brown.
Then adding Kashmiri + ordinary chilli powder, in itself gives a nice colour without using food colouring.

Plus haven't heard of anyone colouring their base, I thought any colouring is only added to the curry you are cooking?

Martin

Hi Martin,
I am currently using CA's spice mix plus I have added  2tbs of Rajah curry powder and 1/2 tbs of Garam Masala ,the spice mix is Orange in colour.Reading this post plus Razors it seems you both use Kashmiri Mirch whereas I have been using Kashmiri Chili which I believe is something different.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 11, 2011, 07:11 PM
Hi emin-j,

The IG bhajis wre great at the time Axe posted them and really showed the perfect technique however, Chriswg developed it further using a combination of the Dipuraja bhaji and the IG bhaji and came up with this http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5057.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5057.0)

Now I've made these a thousand times and each batch has been perfect and bettered a good 95% of the TA bhajis around these parts.

Chris does mention further down in the thread that he thinks the addition of the lemon juice is a mistake based on a coversation he had with a TA chef, so leave that out.  I don't bother to add any asafoteda either but maybe you would like to?

As for the actual curry, my base is a light orange colour to start with but when I make a madras, I only add 1 tsp of gg paste, 1 tsp of spice mix, a good chefspoon of diluted tom puree (1:3 ratio of water), and 2-3 tsp of
Quote
Kashmiri mirch
. This gives my curry a very orange colour and the oil is almost red!  I've also started to add 1 star anise as soon as the oil goes in the pan but fishing it out before I plate up.  It's a little twist that really does add something to my Madras and almost replicates my local TA's Madras

FYI,

The base gravy I'm using is Chewys 3 hr base; http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5635.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5635.0)

The spice mix is my own http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4706.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4706.0)

Hope that helps mate?

Ray :)

Hi Ray,
Yes it is the Bhaji recipe I use that you have linked to and although they are probably the best flavoured Bhaji's I have made they are still nowhere near as good as our local t/a but the owner did tell me they fry their Bhaji's in Veg Ghee and not Oil but I'm not keen on that  ??? I also noticed you say you use 2-3 spoons of Kashmiri Mirch and this is something I have never used and I can see how adding this should give an Orange colour so I'll be looking out for some,thanks' for the link to your spice mix will be giving this a go soon  ;)

I do have this Ray ?

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/fad3ae6584dcba9b7ebb3ad6c6479a84.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#fad3ae6584dcba9b7ebb3ad6c6479a84.jpg)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: chewytikka on December 11, 2011, 07:54 PM
Hi emin-j,
The next time you make a base garabi, only add Salt and Tumeric and a Chef's spoon of Tomato Puree
after you've blended it and put it on the second boil/simmer.

Thinned right down with water this will give you a bright yellow base garabi, even if you leave it on
simmer for ages. (M&S do a very light Italian Tomato Puree. Excellent).

Any mixed powder will colour and darken any garabi, especially if its got garam masala in it.

Kashmiri Mirch is Kashmiri Chilli powder, one in the same and Its my preferred chilli powder (MDH)

Cheers Chewy
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 11, 2011, 08:18 PM
Hi emin-j,
The next time you make a base garabi, only add Salt and Tumeric and a Chef's spoon of Tomato Puree
after you've blended it and put it on the second boil/simmer.

Thinned right down with water this will give you a bright yellow base garabi, even if you leave it on
simmer for ages. (M&S do a very light Italian Tomato Puree. Excellent).

Any mixed powder will colour and darken any garabi, especially if its got garam masala in it.

Kashmiri Mirch is Kashmiri Chilli powder, one in the same and Its my preferred chilli powder (MDH)

Cheers Chewy

Thanks' Chewy,
I don't have a problem with any of the Base Gravy's I have made they all turn out a yellowy colour but the final curry ends up quite brown in colour compared to my local t/a (well 2 t/a's ) and the Gravy in their curry's is light in texture,orange and very savoury.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 11, 2011, 09:24 PM
Hi emin-j,

I agree with Chewy, kashmiri mirch and Kashmiri chilli powder are the same thing, at least that's what I believe? However, the brand really is the difference. MDH kashmiri mirch (not to be confused with MDH deggi mirch, which to me, seems hotter..!) is just about the best that I have come across.  Really red in colour and warm but not 'mad' hot that's why I get away with 3 tsp's in my madras.

I did try another brand not long ago, can't even remember the name but it was utter junk, and went sraight in the bin after 1 outing.

Again, I only use 1 tsp of spice mix in my madras.  Any more than that would, I should imagine, darken the sauce somewhat?

Ray :)

Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 12, 2011, 07:46 PM
Hi emin-j,

I agree with Chewy, kashmiri mirch and Kashmiri chilli powder are the same thing, at least that's what I believe? However, the brand really is the difference. MDH kashmiri mirch (not to be confused with MDH deggi mirch, which to me, seems hotter..!) is just about the best that I have come across.  Really red in colour and warm but not 'mad' hot that's why I get away with 3 tsp's in my madras.

I did try another brand not long ago, can't even remember the name but it was utter junk, and went sraight in the bin after 1 outing.

Again,
Quote
I only use 1 tsp of spice mix in my madras.
  Any more than that would, I should imagine, darken the sauce somewhat?

Ray :)

Hi Razor,
I would think you are using quite a highly Spiced Base to be able to use only 1 tsp of mix ?

atb.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 13, 2011, 12:10 PM
Hi emin-j,

Quote
Hi Razor,
I would think you are using quite a highly Spiced Base to be able to use only 1 tsp of mix ?

I guess so mate.  I know some base recipes call for little more than turmeric and the usual veg whereas Chewys base does use a chefspoon of mixed powder.

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Derek Dansak on December 13, 2011, 12:24 PM
hi emin j, the issue you describe sums up the missing 5 percent. I am completely in the same mindset as you my friend. Its very fustrating to say the least. No matter how many bir chefs post new material or print new books nothing really compares to that illusive taste.
     I have concluded that its only partly  to do with traditional indian cookery and those spices. I justify this because i have tried hundreds of traditional indian recipies , with base and without base ,by many chefs, and no matter what i do, it tastes nothing like a real TA.  Not even close if i am being brutally honest. Traditional indian cookery spices are not the complete answer , there must be some thing else.  Knowing about indigenous bangladesh cookery would be the best route to success, knowing all the vegetables, and other spices they use may help. shame not many books cover this. 
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: PaulP on December 13, 2011, 01:11 PM
Hi DD,

One thing that troubles me is this: Whenever I cook anything reasonably complicated I tend to over-analyze the flavour of my cooking far too much. If somebody else had cooked it I would have decided whether I liked it or not and then would hopefully scoff the food without all this thinking and analysis going on.

I wonder how much of this dissatisfaction and soul-searching is just our personalities for some of us.
Maybe we can never accept that what we cook is like a BIR, even though others who taste our food are satisfied?

Cheers,

Paul


Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 13, 2011, 05:14 PM
Thanks' Guys, It's good to know I'm not on my own then  :)
I just cant work out how they make such a lovely light textured but very Savoury Base  :-\
And a nice Orange Colour  ;)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on December 13, 2011, 06:11 PM
Quote
I have concluded that its only partly  to do with traditional indian cookery and those spices. I justify this because i have tried hundreds of traditional indian recipies , with base and without base ,by many chefs, and no matter what i do, it tastes nothing like a real TA. 

Same, have you tried the long simmering of the base? (all day). Forum member Whandsy reported back from a kitchen, recently about a raw & cooked base...raw being like the ones he makes &  their base which had been cooking for hours after blending, which tasted different..thats my next port of call

Regards
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Derek Dansak on December 13, 2011, 06:22 PM
I have tried pretty much everything ever posted on this site, and various books (kris dyllon, ABC balti book) .  While base is important, a long simmer does not make that much difference.  For me the quest is finished. I gave it 110 percent of my energy for many years, and never really made enough new ground to justify wasting another 2 years on the futile quest.
    I will always be up for trying new things from time to time. And will always love knocking up a good curry.  But i dont for one minute expect to match my favourite local bir ta.
     In some ways i am glad they know how to cook alot better than  me, it makes going there exciting still. One of lifes pleasures, if you will.  Some things in life should remain a mystery ! 
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on December 13, 2011, 06:42 PM
Quote
I have tried pretty much everything ever posted on this site, and various books (kris dyllon, ABC balti book) .  While base is important, a long simmer does not make that much difference.  For me the quest is finished. I gave it 110 percent of my energy for many years, and never really made enough new ground to justify wasting another 2 years on the futile quest.
    I will always be up for trying new things from time to time. And will always love knocking up a good curry.  But i dont for one minute expect to match my favourite local bir ta.
     In some ways i am glad they know how to cook alot better than  me, it makes going there exciting still. One of lifes pleasures, if you will.  Some things in life should remain a mystery

I'm doing 1 more base for the time being & plan to cook it all day & use it the next. If that doesn't produce the flavour, then personally i'm concluding that "everything you need is on this site" may not be the case. KD1 stuff seems to be frowned upon, but I found the base no better or worse than any other i have tried. CA's base & Ceylon was very tasty, especially next day, ashoka bunjarra has mild hints at the taste, all of which not quite there...its clear to me me are all looking for the same thing
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Derek Dansak on December 13, 2011, 07:02 PM
this site taught me enough to stop buying lots of ta's every night. but its not quite cracked the nut for many of us.  Still , i enjoy trying out new books and ideas from various cr0 members. I recently tried the authentic balti curry book . This book  is better than the kris dylon rubbish.  Its still fun, thats what counts  :)   
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 13, 2011, 07:31 PM
Hi DD/ELW,

I think that you're being too hard on yourselves, I really do.  YOU may not believe that you are upto TA/BIR standards but what do your family and friends think?

I know my bro in law thinks that my Bhuna is the best he's ever had, from anywhere.  My best mates wife says the same thing about my Jal Frezi.  I'm never too happy with my madras but my brother loves it and asks me on a regular basis to "knock him one up"

I know it's been said a thousand times on here over the years but, I'm going to say it again......WE ARE OUR OWN WORST CRITICS..!

Do you honestly believe that you can't recreate food equal to your fav TA/BIR? because  I believe that both of you could and I'm very confident that if either one of you was to make me a good Jal Frezi without me knowing it wasn't TA, I wouldn't know the difference (unless you are really poor cooks, which I doubt very much)

I'm working on the last 5 percent at the moment.  I'm training the wife (and eldest son) to make curries exactly to the spec that I use, and in time, they will be very proficient (at least that's the plan) and I'm sure that it's going to take it to 100 percent, because I won't have slaved in the kitchen most of the day and get zoned out by the time the ruby's on the table.

Just my theory,

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: madstwatter on December 13, 2011, 08:01 PM
I think you have got it spot on Ray. I have recently warmed up my finished madras the next day and it tastes fantastic. Not because the taste of the food has improved but my taste and smell have returned to normal.

A while back I got a takeaway from my closest local takeaway then came home and immediately knocked up a madras as a side by side comparison. Other than being a little sweeter I could hardly taste a difference which surprised me because I was always sure that there was a fundamental flavour missing in my own dish.

Nick
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on December 13, 2011, 08:12 PM
Quote
I know it's been said a thousand times on here over the years but, I'm going to say it again......WE ARE OUR OWN WORST CRITICS..!

Hi razor, agreed  i'm seldom 100% happy with my cooking, Im sure the hit on the senses while cooking is the cause... I've tried one of my dishes next to one of my local bir's, next day. The difference in flavour is stark, the source of the flavour, I can't quite pinpoint..it's there even in a korma which has minimal spicing. Im thinking the base cooking or base ingredients is  the key to this background & it may have the taste on its own....or maybe not  :-\

Made lots of great stuff from this site, CA Ceylon was great with nann, but didn't have the right background flavour...sifted through this site from 06 stuff to present & found loads of conflicting information, from ali pans, to mix powders,  so just I try and narrow it down my own way.Never have i seen a subject tested to death like this one  ;D

P.s I think ill start an apprentice also so I can sit on my a*** & eat!

Regards
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 13, 2011, 09:08 PM
All interesting stuff Guys ,
Have you ever had a Curry from your usual t/a that wasn't up to their usual standard ? I know I have and also wondered what they had done that was different,I have on occasion made a Curry that was better than a good Curry from my local t/a and wondered what I had done different  ??? I don't think we are far away so keep at it Guys  ;)   
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: curryhell on December 13, 2011, 09:09 PM
As Ray said stop being so hard on yourselves.  And no DD the quest is not over yet, unless you're gonna throw in the gauntlet mate, which i hope you're not :'(.  Nobody said that this was ever going to be an easy task guys.  What we're trying to do is a full time apprentiship on a worse than part time basis with only this site and our own experiences / ideas and those of other members to mentor us.  That's a pretty tall order by any standard :o.  I've been trying to crack this for 20 plus years.  God i can remember the early days :'( and the disasters ::).  How far i have come since then :D.  But i still probably have as far again yet to go :-\.  But i now cook better indian food than ever and when i serve it to others they think it's the real deal 8).  But of course i don't as none of us do.  Side by side is always a good comparison to see how close you're getting.  But don't get dishearened when there is a marked difference.  This is guaranteed.  You will get that result by placing the same dishes from different takeaways side by side.  As this site has testified all chefs have their own spice mix (albeit very similar) an their own methods.  By trying them all we'll develop our own to.  I never thought i'd see the day when i prefer to cook my own dishes rather than dial a dinner -  but it has arrived :P.  Every time i cook it's like being in the classroom, learning something I enjoy but struggling as usual to take it all in ???.  That doesn't mean that i don't enjoy going out to  a BIR or having a take away.  It's nice just to sit down and eat what the "professionals" have cooked, just for a change.  It reminds you of where you're trying to get to. 
I'm sure if i dialed a curry and not knowing that a CR0 member had cookded it, i'm sure i'd say it was good but it must be chef's night off.  Very unlikely i'd pick up the phone and say "what kind of crap is this. I want the next one free of charge".  And believe me i've done that on a couple of occasions.  Enough said :-X
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Masala Mark on December 14, 2011, 12:08 AM
Hi,

In regards to the missing flavor and the overload of the sense of smell when cooking the dishes, I think unfortunately it is a red herring.

My reason for saying this is that when I started training in the restaurant here making the base gravies, I would start at 2:00pm, cutting onions for the first hour, then making the gravies for the next 3 hours.

Around 6:00pm things start getting busy and depending upon how much is going on, I will either be grabbing ingredients for the chef or cooking the dishes myself, under his watchful eye. As part of my training the chef would get me to taste the dishes while we were cooking. And I can say that even after standing in a very small shop where there is no separation between the kitchen and the front counter, the dishes tasted perfect and smelt perfect, even after cooking very large amounts in a very confined space.

Admittedly when I got home my wife says I stink of curry and fried samosas etc, but I can't smell it, but I could certainly taste how the curries were supposed to taste, and smell how they were meant to.

The bases are full of spices, no such thing as mixed powder, it is similar in process to Ashoka whereby multiple gravies are made which have a large amount of spices and are then mixed to make different dishes, with only a sprinkle of spices at the cooking stage. Ie for Chicken Tikka Masala, butter gravy is used along with a pinch of black pepper and methi, onion and capsicum, and a little cream. A Rogan Josh is a mix of onion gravy, butter gravy, tamarind, pinch of mace powder and a little sugar and salt. Madras is mustard seeds, curry leaves, chili powder, onion gravy, coconut milk powder and a pinch of salt. Butter Chicken is nothing more then butter gravy, pinch of salt, pinch of garam masala, cream and methi.

As much as I have learnt from working in the restaurant, I have also learnt that it is sometimes so much more enjoyable to go and pay the $40 for 4 dishes locally and sit back and enjoy them thoroughly rather then spending 4-6 hours making the base gravies and dishes.

Cheers,
Mark
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on December 14, 2011, 06:47 PM
Hi MMark, how many other gravies do you know of being used where you are? I've heard of makhani gravy only once but disregarded it as non critical due to most of the bir reports on here stating that most dishes are knocked out from the base alone, patia, aside. The makhani gravy is more or less a basic gravy with butter & cream, but I was never sure how much it was used...do you have any recipies for these?

@emin-j - Ive had a few really bland curries, mostly too watery, with not enough reduction, taste was there but minimal.
bunjarra/banjarra paste has hints of it, but not enough from a chefs spoon
Regards
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Masala Mark on December 14, 2011, 10:59 PM
Hi ELW,

We do the following gravies to make the dishes with.

Onion Gravy
Butter Gravy
Korma Gravy
Veg Gravy
Vindaloo Gravy
Seafood Gravy

Each gravy is cooked from scratch and contains different ingredients. When a final dish is being prepared that contains multiple gravies, the different spices used in each gravy create a subtle difference in the finished dish. No  BIR mixed powder is used in the finished dishes as the spices are all contained in the gravies with the exception of finishing spices, black pepper, chili powder or garam masala.

The Veg Gravy for example is used for vegetarian dishes and contains besides a different spice mix, some whole seeds, (cumin, mustard, kalongi, fenugreek, fennel seeds) which are added at the start, along with some other whole spices. This adds a different depth of flavor as there is no meat/chicken stock added to the final dishes.

The Butter/Makhani Gravy has some whole spices added to hot oil, once they darken and expand/pop, the onions are added in and cooked/fried for a good 40 minutes till the volume has reduced by about half. At that point a big handful of methi leaves goes in and it fries for another 40 or so minutes with some salt added at this stage, and cooked until they have reduced right down and are quite dark. In goes the masala mix which is fried for a couple of minutes, then in with the ginger and garlic paste, cooked for another few minutes. Next comes tomato paste(the thick concentrated stuff) and a little water and then a whole lot of blended cashews, some food coloring and sugar. That is then bought back to a boil carefully so as to not have anything burn on the bottom and then it is cooked for on low heat for another hour or so till the oil starts to rise to the surface.

For our 'butter dishes' (Butter Chicken, Paneer Butter Masala etc) there is no actual butter ever added, strange but true! And it is by far the best Butter Chicken I have ever tasted.

The only issue with the 'curry mixing' that we do is that it is a whole lot of work to do just at home having to make 4-6 gravies, I don't like seafood so never worry about making that one at home.

Cheers,
Mark

One thing I forgot to add is that no Pataks or bought pastes are used at all, all masalas used for the gravies are made from scratch along with almost all of the condiments, ie the tamarind sauce, mint sauce for pakoras etc. A couple of packet mixed spices are used ie Bombay Biryani Masala and Chaat Masala, and a couple of pickles are bought as well as they are too time consuming to make.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Derek Dansak on December 15, 2011, 12:30 PM
Hi mark, i have largely given up on using spice mix in the final curry as it never tastes how i would like. I do prefer the approach you describe of adding all the spice in the gravy.
    I think you have descibed enough here to let me do some trials at home, using my own version of butter gravy from a book i own.  Could you elaborate on how you make the vindaloo gravy ?   
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Cory Ander on December 15, 2011, 01:16 PM
Hi mark, i have largely given up on using spice mix in the final curry as it never tastes how i would like. I do prefer the approach you describe of adding all the spice in the gravy.
    I think you have descibed enough here to let me do some trials at home, using my own version of butter gravy from a book i own.  Could you elaborate on how you make the vindaloo gravy ?

Hi DD,

You probably appreciate that (although Aussie Indian restaurant curries can be...hmmm....tasty, in their own right), that Aussie Indian curries are no where near the same as BIR curries.  So their methods are appreciably different from BIRs (as, I am sure, MM will substantiate).
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Derek Dansak on December 15, 2011, 05:00 PM
hi CA, yes i do understand that. The thing is i dont feel completely happy with my repetiore of bir style dishes. some are good, but i do feel i might achieve better results with the style mark describes.
   For 2 reasons
1)  years of doing the 1 base gravy with spice mix method has left me with a good jalfrezzi, and dansak, but madras is poor.   
2)  The method mark describes sits well with me because i like the idea of essentially adding the spice for a long cook in the base. This brings out a good taste in my opinion. + i still like the ashoka style.
  I would be pleased to learn marks restaurant style better, and forget about the whole bir thing, until cr0 convinces me otherwise.   
     
   
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Masala Mark on December 16, 2011, 12:29 AM
Hi CA,

I'm not sure what part of Aus you are in, but have you ever found an Indian Restaurant here that makes them as per BIR style.

I've never had BIR curries only Australian and Canadian, the Canadian were pretty much exactly the same as what we get here.

I know this is a hard ask, but how would you describe the differences?

Cheers,
Mark
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on December 17, 2011, 02:00 AM
hi CA, yes i do understand that. The thing is i dont feel completely happy with my repetiore of bir style dishes.     

I think alot of members & guestson here feel exactly the same. Seasoned/used oil aside, I've tried everything I can think of to pinpoint whats missing, which there is certainly is something missing in my efforts..my latest stab at it has been Ashoka base, although by no means the best, the restaurant chain has bir taste i am familiar with.

Ashoka  base simmered all day & used the next: thickened  & darkened - no difference in taste

1st ladle reduced in pan to almost bubbles: no improvement

Cooking spices/herbs in garlic /ginger / tomato paste as opposed to frying in oil: spices seem to cook either way

Texture / colour: mostly good

The predominant taste in my dishes is the base sauce, which is not right. My conclusions to date are~ The base is either overpowering the other flavours & isnt how the restaurant do theirs
or
the dish is missing another key addition (paste/gravy)at the cooking of the dish stage...in fairness to the original poster of the Ashoka stuff(Panpot, does he not come on any more?), he did say he never tasted the base on its own, when he was in their kitchen
I've recently had an Ashoka menu put through my door, which states paprika is used in their karahi bhuna, but is not in what seems to be a bona fide recipe on cr0, witnessed by a Panpot???????
Tonight I ordered a bhuna & madras from one of my locals(good quality) the difference to my dishes is stark. The sauces  have a taste you would associate with maybe a soup with a good quality stock used. I now cant see how the bases i have been using & packet spices alone can ever produce a flavour anything like this..after all g&g paste is g&g paste.
Like DD, I am also interested in the additional gravy style & recipies from masala mark, def worth a go
Apologies in advance for longwindedness!
Regards
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Whandsy on December 17, 2011, 12:45 PM
I'd be interested to know if any members think they have 100% cracked it and have the takeaway / restaurant quality down to a tee!! as opposed to being close! I know a lot of us are happy with the results and friends etc can't tell the difference (or tell us that), but my last effort whilst very good, was shy of the mark :-\
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 17, 2011, 01:04 PM
Hi Wayne,

I would say that, 90% of the time I do get TA quality dishes but, everything has to be done 'spot on' for me to achieve the desired results. Timing is crucial, and knowing how far to go is too.  Singing spices and burning them, is a very fine line.  I take the, hot, quench, hot, quench approach for example; in goes the gg paste in hot oil, then quench with tom puree. Get the oil back to temp then in goes the spices.  Again, I then quench with a chefspoon of base and bring back to temp.  In goes the veg (if using) then quench again with more base and so on and so forth.

My Madras is bang on to my local TA's. My Jal Frezi is better IMO than my local TA's.  I'm well happy with my Bhuna's too and whilst I don't eat Korma, my wife thinks that it's better than my TA's version

CTM is a dish that I rarely eat and so, I don't cook it often but it sure is one dish that I need to work on.  Dhansak is another dish that I need more practise with.  But in the main, I'm quite happy with what I cook. 

I've even started to stuff ear plugs up my nose to ensure that I don't get 'spiced out' whilst cooking, and it does help a great deal.

Hope I don't come across as being arrogant here but I really am happy with what I cook compared to the TA's....maybe my local TA's are Shite....don't know ???

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Les on December 17, 2011, 01:10 PM
An interesting question Whandsy
I don't think that anyone will ever reach that 100%, We will always try to make the next effort better than the last, (Nature of the beast, that's how we are), And if you ever reach 100%, Where do you go from there? Stop! no I don't think so, There would be no more challenge. ;D
Just my opinion of course

HS
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: curryhell on December 17, 2011, 01:29 PM

My Madras is bang on to my local TA's. My Jal Frezi is better IMO than my local TA's.  I'm well happy with my Bhuna's too and whilst I don't eat Korma, my wife thinks that it's better than my TA's version

CTM is a dish that I rarely eat and so, I don't cook it often but it sure is one dish that I need to work on.  Dhansak is another dish that I need more practise with.  But in the main, I'm quite happy with what I cook. 

It's good to hear this Ray as there is an air of despondency around at the moment :(.  I don't think it is always possible to produce dishes identicle to your local unless of course your gravy and spice mix are the same ;) (that being unlikely).  On top of that your technique needs to correct as well.  But as many of will say you can get damn close and sometimes our own efforts are even better ;D ;D.

Quote
I've even started to stuff ear plugs up my nose to ensure that I don't get 'spiced out' whilst cooking, and it does help a great deal.

The lengths some people will go to :o.  Why am i not surprised that it works though although some others will disagree. ;D ;D

Quote
Hope I don't come across as being arrogant here but I really am happy with what I cook compared to the TA's....maybe my local TA's are Shite....don't know ???

Ray :)

Not at all mate, just being honest and re. your locals I doubt that too or they'd not be in business long.  I think it's all about concentrating on your prefered dishes and working until you have something close but as we know, this may take a while and determination :D.  The good thing is you can nail a lot of the items on the menu along the way but to master it all is a lifetime's work, unless of course you start training as a BIR chef - unlikely.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 17, 2011, 01:46 PM
Hey CH,

Quote
I think it's all about concentrating on your preferred dishes and working until you have something close

Absolutely!  I've been working on Madras for what seems like an eternity but with a great deal of help from Chewytikka, and a bit of thinking outside the box, I've nailed it.

My locals Madras does have a slight anise flavour to it.  Not everyones idea of a Madras I know but theirs is by far the best madras that I've tasted.  Chewys madras method is as sound as it comes for me but, I now grind half a small star anise to a very fine powder and this goes in with the mixed powder and chilli.  It's given me that missing 5%, certainly for the madras anyway.

I can't remember but I think it was one of Mick's (CBM) videos, where the chef sprinkles some powder into the dish and when asked what it was he replied "star seed"  Now at the time of seeing this, I thought he meant garam masala, as it went in towards the end but, I took him for his word and used star seed (star anise) and bingo, it was there 100% clone.

As for the nose plugs (ear plugs) it really does work.  I started doing it because over the last year, I've really suffered with my sinus's and it always seemed to flare up after a good curry(ing) session.  Since using the ear plugs, I haven't had a problem..........just goes to show doesn't it ;D

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Whandsy on December 17, 2011, 01:56 PM

My Madras is bang on to my local TA's. My Jal Frezi is better IMO than my local TA's.  I'm well happy with my Bhuna's too and whilst I don't eat Korma, my wife thinks that it's better than my TA's version

CTM is a dish that I rarely eat and so, I don't cook it often but it sure is one dish that I need to work on.  Dhansak is another dish that I need more practise with.  But in the main, I'm quite happy with what I cook. 

It's good to hear this Ray as there is an air of despondency around at the moment :(.  I don't think it is always possible to produce dishes identicle to your local unless of course your gravy and spice mix are the same ;) (that being unlikely).  On top of that your technique needs to correct as well.  But as many of will say you can get damn close and sometimes our own efforts are even better ;D ;D.

Quote
I've even started to stuff ear plugs up my nose to ensure that I don't get 'spiced out' whilst cooking, and it does help a great deal.

The lengths some people will go to :o.  Why am i not surprised that it works though although some others will disagree. ;D ;D

Quote
Hope I don't come across as being arrogant here but I really am happy with what I cook compared to the TA's....maybe my local TA's are Shite....don't know ???

Ray :)

Not at all mate, just being honest and re. your locals I doubt that too or they'd not be in business long.  I think it's all about concentrating on your prefered dishes and working until you have something close but as we know, this may take a while and determination :D.  The good thing is you can nail a lot of the items on the menu along the way but to master it all is a lifetime's work, unless of course you start training as a BIR chef - unlikely.

I agree with all of this and I'm now in the belief of a good base being the key. The other night I made a multitude of the same curry's with varying techniques.

1 homemade GG vs jar GG result was equal
2 Frying the spices for 25 seconds (ish) vs quick fry then base. Result no difference
3 lots of base in the pan reducing on high heat vs bringing down slowly. Result no difference
4 lots of mixed powder vs a little mixed powder. Result was different but only strength, not the missing link >:(

My base hasn't got much spice in it and when I tasted the takeaways base sauce, that didn't taste spicey either.

That conflicts with Julian at curry to go however, as when you watch his base video there appears to be vast quantities of spices going in, which must give an end result of a curry in itself surely!

I think my next attempts are going to be with a base with lots of spice added.

What are other peoples opinion? A little or a lot?

Merry christmas  :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on December 17, 2011, 05:09 PM
Quote
Singing spices and burning them, is a very fine line.  I take the, hot, quench, hot, quench approach for example; in goes the gg paste in hot oil, then quench with tom puree. Get the oil back to temp then in goes the spices.  Again, I then quench with a chefspoon of base and bring back to temp.  In goes the veg (if using) then quench again with more base and so on and so forth.


I use that method also Razor, to stop cooking anything further than i want. When starting out I deliberately over & undercooked spices & GG, to register taste..I can still taste them now even thinking about them..then i know when I've botched that part of the cooking.
Hi Curryhell
we're spoiled for choice in restaurants/takeaways here in Glasgow, the restaurants imo producing far better quality rather than the t/a's. Some of the ta's have a go at just about anything, with a large amount of them being possibly Turkish run, rather than Ind/Pak/Bangl. That said some are pretty good, & I would go as far as to say that there is is distinctive flavour in all of them, in varying degrees, pretty much right across the board. Some of the lower quality places suffer from all of their dishes tasting the same, no matter what you order, no matter what the ingredients, with the 'unusual flavour overpowering the rest of the ingredients.  It lies behind the flavour of the ingredients, whatever they may be, like layers. It reminds me very much of commercial stock, its like nothing in my cupboards & its what makes me finish every single bit of it & return for more  week in / out - I realise im preaching to the converted here  :D

We have recently changed our ta to a local one which was established around 25 yrs ago...mosaic tiles still on the exterior, a great find, I have tried around 15 different dishes, each one has its own unique flavour,due to the ingredients. The chefs has clearly got the balance right. They have just started to advertise home style (desi)cooking of Karahi & Bhoona - 45 min prep time along with another 30 or so other dishes..im goin to taste test one of these next week, maybe christmas day   ;D & try & find out if a base is used...failing I've got a bhoona on the waiting list for an mri scan!
Not completely out of ideas yet...but getting there

Regards
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Whandsy on December 17, 2011, 06:07 PM
Quote
I've even started to stuff ear plugs up my nose to ensure that I don't get 'spiced out' whilst cooking, and it does help a great deal.

Wow, ive just got home and knocked up a jalfrezi with some leftover base in the fridge, the difference being i shoved kitchen roll up both nostrils for cooking from start to finish :D. OMG It was superb, i know im guilty of getting spice overload but i cant believe its made that much of a difference!

Nice one Ray, that's a new addition to the technique ;)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 17, 2011, 07:41 PM
Nice one Wayne ;D

When I do it, I can see my missus looking at me with complete and utter disgust hahahaha ;D

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: spiceyokooko on December 17, 2011, 08:19 PM
I would say that, 90% of the time I do get TA quality dishes but, everything has to be done 'spot on' for me to achieve the desired results. Timing is crucial, and knowing how far to go is too.  Singing spices and burning them, is a very fine line.  I take the, hot, quench, hot, quench approach for example; in goes the gg paste in hot oil, then quench with tom puree. Get the oil back to temp then in goes the spices.  Again, I then quench with a chefspoon of base and bring back to temp.  In goes the veg (if using) then quench again with more base and so on and so forth.
Ray

I agree with you here 100%, that's the technique I use too and I'm more than happy with the quality of dishes I'm currently producing. Are they as good as my local takeaway? Who knows, I don't really care to be honest, all I know is they're good enough for me and I enjoy eating them and that's what it's about for me. If I was objective, I'd say they were good enough to make my local takeaway redundant - I simply don't use Indian Restaurant takeaways any more, I'd much rather cook my own. What I do know is - they're far better than anything I could buy in the supermarket.

What I am convinced about is, there are no 'secret ingredients', as far as I'm concerned - it's all about technique, understanding what you're doing and cooking ability. The more you understand about what you're doing and the better the cook you are - the better the results you'll achieve with the same ingredients.

As you rightly point out - just one of the cooking processes - the frying of spices in hot oil is absolutely critical to the success of the dish, if you get this stage wrong it can completely ruin and change the overall flavour of the dish. But the reverse is also true, by getting this stage bang on the button and stopping the cooking process at exactly the right time by the addition of other ingredients and then continue cooking the next stage again for the correct period of time will ensure the dish is cooked correctly. Even the oil temperature at the point of adding the spices is critical - too hot and they'll burn before you have a chance to do anything, too cool and the spices won't cook properly and release their full flavour and aromatic oils.

The BIR/takeaway chefs bang these dishes out in no more than about 10-15 mins each, that means the use of a medium/high flame which makes, as you also rightly point out, the timing of adding the ingredients also critical. Get the timing wrong and things can go to hell in a hand basket faster than you can shout an expletive! That also means you have to have your 'mise en place' as used in the trade spot on and in the right place. That essentially means you have to have all your ingredients/spice mixes/meat or anything else going into that dish all ready to go in. I also bring my base sauce to a boil then a simmer before I start cooking the dish, so when I add it, it doesn't lower the temperature of the other ingredients when its added.

I would strongly urge all those people who don't feel they're getting the results they're hoping for, to have a critical look at their cooking techniques at all stages and be 100% sure the ingredients are being cooked correctly, before they look at the ingredients themselves as the possible cause of problems.

Just my opinion of course!

Cheers and good Karma!
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 17, 2011, 08:43 PM
Hi Spiceyokooko,

What can I say, I'm in total agreement.

Secret ingredient?.....No, I don't believe such a thing really exists.

Cooking technique?.....imperative to achieve perfection.

Am I happy with my own efforts v that of my local TA....Damn right I am (in the most part anyway)

Have I still got lots to learn?.....most very definitely, and I'm really enjoying the journey!

Are me and Spiceyokooko getting on better than the last time we met?.....Hell yes ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Joking aside mate, you raise some really good points there and I also agree, technique is crucial, as is timing, as is good produce.  Get these three elements right and, well, you're almost there!

Ray :)

Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 17, 2011, 09:44 PM
Ray/Chewy, thanks' for the info on using Kashmiri Chili,being milder than my usual Chili Powder enabled me to use twice the amount so changed the Colour to more of the Orange I have been trying to achieve  ;)

Ray, Your tip about using the ground star anise added a lovely aroma and flavour to mine and the Mrs Madras tonight, so thankyou Guys  ;) ;D

Spiceyokooko, Agree with most of what you have written in your post especially the frying of Spices in hot oil.
But I recently followed a recipe { taz I think }where the Spices are added after the first ladle of Base and then reduced down and not being to happy to follow this method did a side by side with my usual fry in oil method and found ............. no difference in flavour in either Curry  :-\ that's part of the fun in the BIR challenge  ;) 
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Razor on December 18, 2011, 09:21 PM
Hi emin-j,

Many thanks for trying the star anise idea, have you come across that flavour before in a madras?  I suspect that it's quite unusual?

Quote
I recently followed a recipe { taz I think }where the Spices are added after the first ladle of Base and then reduced down and not being to happy to follow this method did a side by side with my usual fry in oil method and found ............. no difference in flavour in either Curry   that's part of the fun in the BIR challenge 

Agreed but, because the Taz base contains a fair amount of oil, and you reduce the 1st ladle right back, the spices DO actually get fried.  I think this approach is brilliant for beginners or those who are afraid to fry their spices in fear of burning them, and is a fantastic base and method IMO.

Ray :)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: emin-j on December 18, 2011, 10:12 PM
Hi Ray, Not tasted the Aniseed flavour in a Curry before but will be adding this to our Madras from now on  ;)
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: ELW on April 14, 2018, 12:59 AM
Hi ELW,

We do the following gravies to make the dishes with.

Onion Gravy
Butter Gravy
Korma Gravy
Veg Gravy
Vindaloo Gravy
Seafood Gravy

Each gravy is cooked from scratch and contains different ingredients. When a final dish is being prepared that contains multiple gravies, the different spices used in each gravy create a subtle difference in the finished dish. No  BIR mixed powder is used in the finished dishes as the spices are all contained in the gravies with the exception of finishing spices, black pepper, chili powder or garam masala.

The Veg Gravy for example is used for vegetarian dishes and contains besides a different spice mix, some whole seeds, (cumin, mustard, kalongi, fenugreek, fennel seeds) which are added at the start, along with some other whole spices. This adds a different depth of flavor as there is no meat/chicken stock added to the final dishes.

The Butter/Makhani Gravy has some whole spices added to hot oil, once they darken and expand/pop, the onions are added in and cooked/fried for a good 40 minutes till the volume has reduced by about half. At that point a big handful of methi leaves goes in and it fries for another 40 or so minutes with some salt added at this stage, and cooked until they have reduced right down and are quite dark. In goes the masala mix which is fried for a couple of minutes, then in with the ginger and garlic paste, cooked for another few minutes. Next comes tomato paste(the thick concentrated stuff) and a little water and then a whole lot of blended cashews, some food coloring and sugar. That is then bought back to a boil carefully so as to not have anything burn on the bottom and then it is cooked for on low heat for another hour or so till the oil starts to rise to the surface.

For our 'butter dishes' (Butter Chicken, Paneer Butter Masala etc) there is no actual butter ever added, strange but true! And it is by far the best Butter Chicken I have ever tasted.

The only issue with the 'curry mixing' that we do is that it is a whole lot of work to do just at home having to make 4-6 gravies, I don't like seafood so never worry about making that one at home.

Cheers,
Mark

One thing I forgot to add is that no Pataks or bought pastes are used at all, all masalas used for the gravies are made from scratch along with almost all of the condiments, ie the tamarind sauce, mint sauce for pakoras etc. A couple of packet mixed spices are used ie Bombay Biryani Masala and Chaat Masala, and a couple of pickles are bought as well as they are too time consuming to make.
Hi,

In regards to the missing flavor and the overload of the sense of smell when cooking the dishes, I think unfortunately it is a red herring.

My reason for saying this is that when I started training in the restaurant here making the base gravies, I would start at 2:00pm, cutting onions for the first hour, then making the gravies for the next 3 hours.

Around 6:00pm things start getting busy and depending upon how much is going on, I will either be grabbing ingredients for the chef or cooking the dishes myself, under his watchful eye. As part of my training the chef would get me to taste the dishes while we were cooking. And I can say that even after standing in a very small shop where there is no separation between the kitchen and the front counter, the dishes tasted perfect and smelt perfect, even after cooking very large amounts in a very confined space.

Admittedly when I got home my wife says I stink of curry and fried samosas etc, but I can't smell it, but I could certainly taste how the curries were supposed to taste, and smell how they were meant to.

The bases are full of spices, no such thing as mixed powder, it is similar in process to Ashoka whereby multiple gravies are made which have a large amount of spices and are then mixed to make different dishes, with only a sprinkle of spices at the cooking stage. Ie for Chicken Tikka Masala, butter gravy is used along with a pinch of black pepper and methi, onion and capsicum, and a little cream. A Rogan Josh is a mix of onion gravy, butter gravy, tamarind, pinch of mace powder and a little sugar and salt. Madras is mustard seeds, curry leaves, chili powder, onion gravy, coconut milk powder and a pinch of salt. Butter Chicken is nothing more then butter gravy, pinch of salt, pinch of garam masala, cream and methi.

As much as I have learnt from working in the restaurant, I have also learnt that it is sometimes so much more enjoyable to go and pay the $40 for 4 dishes locally and sit back and enjoy them thoroughly rather then spending 4-6 hours making the base gravies and dishes.

Cheers,
Mark

Hi,

In regards to the missing flavor and the overload of the sense of smell when cooking the dishes, I think unfortunately it is a red herring.

My reason for saying this is that when I started training in the restaurant here making the base gravies, I would start at 2:00pm, cutting onions for the first hour, then making the gravies for the next 3 hours.

Around 6:00pm things start getting busy and depending upon how much is going on, I will either be grabbing ingredients for the chef or cooking the dishes myself, under his watchful eye. As part of my training the chef would get me to taste the dishes while we were cooking. And I can say that even after standing in a very small shop where there is no separation between the kitchen and the front counter, the dishes tasted perfect and smelt perfect, even after cooking very large amounts in a very confined space.

Admittedly when I got home my wife says I stink of curry and fried samosas etc, but I can't smell it, but I could certainly taste how the curries were supposed to taste, and smell how they were meant to.

The bases are full of spices, no such thing as mixed powder, it is similar in process to Ashoka whereby multiple gravies are made which have a large amount of spices and are then mixed to make different dishes, with only a sprinkle of spices at the cooking stage. Ie for Chicken Tikka Masala, butter gravy is used along with a pinch of black pepper and methi, onion and capsicum, and a little cream. A Rogan Josh is a mix of onion gravy, butter gravy, tamarind, pinch of mace powder and a little sugar and salt. Madras is mustard seeds, curry leaves, chili powder, onion gravy, coconut milk powder and a pinch of salt. Butter Chicken is nothing more then butter gravy, pinch of salt, pinch of garam masala, cream and methi.

As much as I have learnt from working in the restaurant, I have also learnt that it is sometimes so much more enjoyable to go and pay the $40 for 4 dishes locally and sit back and enjoy them thoroughly rather then spending 4-6 hours making the base gravies and dishes.

Cheers,
Mark


No he said there was no butter all. I remember this reply , due to the oddness
ELW
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: livo on April 14, 2018, 11:29 PM
ELW, I have this morning done some research on Butter in Butter Chicken. I have looked at around 20 recipes, studied the difference between Murgh Makhani and Chicken Tikka Masala and also actual Indian people's descriptions of the dish. It is completely possible to have Butter Chicken with very little or no butter. One food scientist with 50 years experience actually said that the Makhani word in this dish name is used in the context of the mouth feel of the dish being buttery in texture only and has nothing to do with the use of actual butter. He actually says that a dish containing lots of butter would be unpleasant in it's oiliness.  Mind you others say that is must contain lots of butter.

The common thing is that most contain, cream, yogurt and either ghee or butter and sometimes oil.  I guess like most Indian dishes, there are so many different interpretations that you can call it what ever you wish.  There is a recently posted thread about the 2 Indian sisters cooking this dish on BBC TV and there are some who believe that the dish is CTM. The Indian girls simply say that CTM is just UK Butter Chicken.

The discussion or debate about the difference or similarity within and between each dish will never be resolved one way or the other.  I guess only a person from the UK can say what is actually a proper CTM.

What Masala Mark told you here is completely possible. It is different to the recipe he posted under the thread of the dish name but from memory he was under the guidance of 2 different chefs. One was in lessons and the other he worked for.  This may well explain the difference we see here.

Yesterday morning, I pulled out my notes from the time I used his procedure initially, and I scaled everything down 1/5.  You wouldn't want to go much smaller as it would become micro-cooking, but even with these reduced amounts in 3 gravy / paste preparations you will be having enough to make about 20 - 30 individual dishes.  It is also a lot of work and will take 6 - 10 hours to produce all 3.  Maybe less if you look for similarities and develop shortcuts and do simultaneous preparations.  There are some commonalities in the procedures and ingredients.
'
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: haldi on April 15, 2018, 07:13 PM
The Veg Gravy for example is used for vegetarian dishes and contains besides a different spice mix, some whole seeds, (cumin, mustard, kalongi, fenugreek, fennel seeds) which are added at the start, along with some other whole spices. This adds a different depth of flavor as there is no meat/chicken stock added to the final dishes.

this offers some hope for me
Most of the curries I cook are veggie
I've not made a base with this combination of spices
I also note that fenugreek is amongst them
We were discussing that missing spice in another thread
Also fennel is there, that gives an aniseed flavour
Star Anise was  mentioned as a missing spice for a madras recipe, some pages back
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: George on April 16, 2018, 09:10 AM
One food scientist with 50 years experience actually said that the Makhani word in this dish name is used in the context of the mouth feel of the dish being buttery in texture only and has nothing to do with the use of actual butter. He actually says that a dish containing lots of butter would be unpleasant in it's oiliness. 

I don't care how many qualifications or years' experience he has, His opinions are at complete variance with my findings. One of the first really good Indian dishes I ever made was Madhur Jaffrey's sauce to go over chicken tikka, from her first BBC TV series. I think she called it Makhani.  Anyway, whatever it's called, it comprises almost 50% butter and 50% cream, plus a bit of tomato and a few other ingredients as flavouring, So it must be about 90% fat / oil but it isn't unpleasant - it's delicious. It just goes to show - never trust a so-called expert,

Another thing - it's great how this thread was resurrected since previous postings in 2011. Long may it continue ie. being able to post to threads, no matter how old they are, Some forums don't allow this and force you to open a new thread - bad practice and so irritating in my opinion.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: Garp on April 16, 2018, 05:56 PM

One of the first really good Indian dishes I ever made was Madhur Jaffrey's sauce to go over chicken tikka, from her first BBC TV series. I think she called it Makhani.  Anyway, whatever it's called, it comprises almost 50% butter and 50% cream, plus a bit of tomato and a few other ingredients as flavouring, So it must be about 90% fat / oil but it isn't unpleasant - it's delicious. It just goes to show - never trust a so-called expert,


I think I have that recipe in a Madhur book (the first curry book I ever bought), and I agree, it is delicious.
Title: Re: Running out of ideas
Post by: livo on April 17, 2018, 03:19 AM
I also wrote this, in the opposite vein, as the last sentence of that paragraph.
Mind you others say that is must contain lots of butter.
The word Makhani apparently has 2 meanings in language for Indian people. It is used in relation to either the use of actual butter (ie; with butter) or being of a buttery consistency but without the use of butter ( ie; as of butter).  Cream, yogurt and oil will all provide this effect without the use of butter.  Makhani without butter is common and this is the point that ELW has shown, It surprised him as it does others, including me quite some time ago.  As with mostly all menu dishes in this field of cooking the actual nomenclature is a bit loose.


 Some forums don't allow this and force you to open a new thread - bad practice and so irritating in my opinion.

Not necessarily in all cases.  Sometimes revisiting an older thread is more appropriate and provides "better housekeeping".  I do agree with you on this point, in this instance though George, but perhaps ELW was in a hurry and didn't have time to edit the whole quote he was looking for and move it to an appropriate thread or create a new one.  I understood what he meant without issue and your post has perhaps reminded Garp of a recipe he'd like to revisit. No harm done.