Topic: What's Missing?!!! (Stock, Seasoning and/or Flavour Enhancer?)

[Cory Ander]

Hi All,

I am pretty certain that I can cook decent curries that are a match for many BIRs and better than some.  For dinner, last night, I had the following (home cooked by my own fair hands of course!):

• Chicken Madras (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1200.0)
• Mushroom Bhaji (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1191.0)
• Tarka Dhal (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1191.0)
• Pilau Rice (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1383.0)
• Plain Naans (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1448.0)

In my opinion (ever so humble, of course  !), my curies have good appearance, good flavour (and good diversity of flavour), and good aroma.  Arguably, they have "The Appearance", "The Taste" and "The Smell" of a good BIR curry!  But please feel free to beg to differ (appearance wise anyway)!

But!.....SOMETHING IS STILL MISSING!?...and it frustrates the hell out of me!  I'm sure that many of you will also share similar frustrations! 

I note (or imagine I note!) the following differences between a good BIR curry and mine (and please don't mention going outside for a breath of fresh air!  :).

Good BIR curries:

• Have a more intense flavour
• Have a greater depth of flavour
• Are richer
• Are more savoury
• Have a generally smokier flavour
• Are somehow sweeter (without being "sugary sweet")

In a nutshell, whereas I feel that my curries have good aroma and flavour, they seem to simply lack the pure intensity and depth of flavour and aroma that good BIR curries have.  "How do BIRs achieve this?", I ask myself!  I'm sure many of you ask yourselves similar question!

I have tried so many things.  I have tried many different curry bases, many different ingredients, many different cooking techniques and many different cooking sequences.  I have read all of the popular BIR cooking books, back to front and even upside down!  I've roasted and ground spices and I've bought off-the-shelf spices.  I've made masalas and pastes and I've bought off-the-shelf masalas and pastes.  I've used whole spices and powdered spices.  I've used minimal spicing and I've used substantial spicing.  I've boiled onions and I've fried them.  I've both fried then boiled them.  I've used frozen onions.  I've used dry onions.  I've used fresh garlic and ginger and I've used bottled.  I've used powdered.  I've thoroughly browned garlic.  I've probably even burnt it!  I've added mooli and celeriac to my curry bases.  I've used vegetable oil, peanut oil and other oils.  Hell, I've even used olive oil!  I've used butter ghee.  I've even made my own butter ghee.  I've used lots of oil and I've used minimal oil.  I've used high temperatures and low temperatures.  I've used short and long times.  I've used fresh tomatoes, tinned tomatoes, tomato paste and tomato puree.  I've even used tomato ketchup and tomato soup.  I've used salt, MSG, stock cubes and other flavour enhancers.  I've made my own stock.  I've used white sugar, brown sugar and jaggery.  Well, I think you get my drift!

My current conclusion is that, whereas I'm sure that technique is clearly important, I am equally convinced that:

• The Curry Base is THE critical (but not secret!) constituent of a good BIR curry
• The "missing bit" (regarding intensity and depth of flavour and aroma, savouriness and richness) is probably some form of vegetable, fish, meat or chicken stock, and/or some other seasoning and/or flavour enhancer

.
I can see no other way that, particularly the intensity and depth of flavour and aroma, savouriness and richness, of a good BIR curry, can otherwise be achieved. 

There are a couple of Curry Bases here that use stock or seasoning or flavour enhancers:

• Chilli Prawn's "Ultimate Curry Base" (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1187.0) and, more recently, Andy's Curry Base (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1476.0), which both (assuming these are, in fact, two different sources) use "Knorr Vegetable Bouillon Catering Paste"
• Ifindforu's Curry Base (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1062.0)which uses "Rajah All Purpose Seasoning"

I shall be experimenting more with adding stocks, seasonings and/or other flavour enhancers to my Curry Base (and curries) in an attempt to produce curries which are richer, more savoury, and which have more intense and greater depth of flavour and aroma.

Incidentally, and rather ironically, I find that adding MSG (a major constituent in many seasonings and flavour enhancers....including the above two seasonings) seems to dissipate the flavours and make them blander, less intense and somehow more "one-dimensional".

I'd love to hear of anyone else?s experiences with stocks, seasonings and flavour enhancers. 

Regards,

[Yousef]

Your post sums up exactly why i still enjoy eating out at an Indian restaurant, no matter how far you move forward when you sample the real thing you appreciate what its all about.

In my opinion there is a 40 year old secret, a holy grail of knowledge that can not be learned over night.
I think we are close but not there yet.

I am working on a base sauce at the moment all will be revealed soon.

Stew

[wardy11]

My kids sometimes get those supermarket pasta ready meals. Often when they cook them i have thought that the aroma that comes off them can be similar to being outside a bir. Obviously these will be full of seasonings ,flavour enhancers etc. Just a thought!

[Chilli Prawn]

Cory that was a great post and says it all I think.  I get a mixed response from customers to my curries, but on the whole they are positive.  The BIR taste? wel some say yes and some say no, so I can't win.  However, it is a big no no to MSG.  You are absolutely right that enhancers modify and create a singular dimensional taste (plus they knacker your brain cells).  I know I have said it before, but it is all about the quality of the base, the blend of additional spices etc., fusion, and 'resting' of the dish afterwards; and they all depend on technique and the right equipment. ;D

CP

[Yellow Fingers]

That was a great post Cory, summing up almost to the letter my own experiences in this culinary minefield. One thing caught my eye though and that is your assertion that the curry base is THE answer to the depth of taste that we are trying to achieve. In the early days of the forum I would certainly have agreed with you, my reasoning being that the only thing that would be used in all the curries would be the base sauce an therefore would be the most likely candidate to carry the taste.

Now however I believe I was wrong. I now think it is more to do with method/technique, but annoyingly also allied with the right spice mix and, in my opinion, a simple base. It's amazing that after all the years that this forum has been going we still can't seem to arrive at a consensus over, well, anything.

YF

[haldi]

It's definitely the base
I made an exact copy of a curry when the takeaway sold me some spice mix and curry gravy
I did the same again, with a base I made, and it wasn't quite as good

When I tasted the genuine base, it was somehow different
You knew it was special, although I don't know what it was
Maybe it's the "can't be done in small quantities" thing
I find it very hard to believe that noone on this site hasn't accidently achieved it

[King Prawn]

Cory,

Seems like you and I have been duplicating effort over the last 20 years ;D ;D

I remember a chef once telling me to fry some garlic and ginger to add into the final dish. It should be finely chopped and added just before serving.

Other flavour enhancers for the final dish include,

fresh corriander
RAW garlic and ginger puree
Cumin powder
Tandoori marinade (you know, tandoori paste with yoghurt and other stuff)
Tomato and garlic paste

I have twice managed to replicate my local take away, but was merrliy pissed and can't remember a thing about what I did (maybe a good thing).
I have never got near the restaurant's I would like to imitate.

For me it's not about cooking at home instead of going to the restaurant. The restaurant has it's place in my social and eating life, but I do eat other things 

For me it is the knowledge and challenge that are important (as well as the fact that one day I may be living in a foreign country a long way from any indian restaurants, even bad ones! - there a quite a few on this site who are already in this situation.)

There are thousands of 'indain chefs' here and many of us have been into the restaurant kitchens and been shown things, but still we can't do it. Why???

If one good thing comes out of this it will be to de-mystify indian restaurant food and will likely increase the customers to their restaurants.

I say this because we had several cases here last year where BIR's were closed down by the EHO and this hit the local press on the front page. BIR's here suffered several drops in thier income after this. If they can dispel the suspicion that it is dirty or unclean techniques that produce the flavour then so much the better for them. Hiding behind a veil of secrecy is not something that is good for business. After all, what have they got to hide???

KP

[Mark J]

It's definitely the base
I made an exact copy of a curry when the takeaway sold me some spice mix and curry gravy
I did the same again, with a base I made, and it wasn't quite as good

When I tasted the genuine base, it was somehow different
You knew it was special, although I don't know what it was
Maybe it's the "can't be done in small quantities" thing
I find it very hard to believe that noone on this site hasn't accidently achieved it

I agree mate, I got a sample of base from my local BIR recently and it was very bland, lightly spiced but it had a certain flavour I have never had in my bases.

[spicysarsy]

Hi gang, Like most of us I too am totaly mistified regarding the missing link { the taste }. I am now 99.9 % sure it is because the average B.I.R. boil the chicken first, thus a ready stock, once boiled removed from the stock pot, the the onions, spices,veg ect are added. The other thing as in one of my earlier posts is the fact that I have actualy witnessed chef's placing a bag {muslin } containing ginger,garlic, cloves, and spices into the middle of the pile of onions, the removed before liquising. Could it be that we in general are over doing things by leaving the whole amounts of garlic, ginger ect in the stock too long. I have tried several times boiling the chicken and using this as a natural stock instead of knorr catering paste and have always enjoyed the flavor much better, I also on occation added a couple of table spoons of demerer sugar before liqidising. And this method only produces the closest to the taste I find. But again this is my personal opinion.
In a strange sort of way I feel we are going end up flabbergasted or in a local mental hospital when the missing link is found and the perfect base is created. Cheer's Paul   

[Chilli Prawn]

Good point Paul.  I notice that there is very little reference to sugar in the forum communications, yet it is a vital ingredient in certain types of curry recipes including BIR stuff.  The BIRs use Gur/Jaggery, but light brown unrefined sugar will but I am not keen on Demerera.  I also use sweetner powder to good effect (as I am a mild diabetic).

CP