Topic: How to Get That BIR "Smokey/Toffee-Like" Taste (Illustrated!)

[emin-j]

Hi JerryM,
The base is - 6 Medium or 8 small Onions
              1 Red Pepper
              3 Whole bulbs of Garlic
              1 Piece of Ginger 2" square ish
              1 Carrot
              1 Good Tsp Turmeric
              1  ''   '' Paprika
              1  ''   '' Cummin
              1  ''   '' Coriander ( powder )
              2  ''   '' Curry Powder
              2  ''   '' Chili Powder
              1  Tin of Plum Tomato's
              Plenty of Salt to taste ( prob 1-2 tablespoons )
              1 Cup of Sunflower Oil 

Rough chop ingredients,put in large saucepan,add cold water,bring to boil,  Then cover and simmer until water has reduced,then add  Spices/Toms/Oil/Salt, gently stir in,continue to simmer for 10 - 20 mins.
When cooled Puree in blender.
Makes about 2.5 ltrs.

Madras is basically the one that goes with SnS's base.http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2783.0
But I fry 1  diced green chili per portion when I fry the Garlic/Ginger/Tom Puree
Also where the recipe states 1 Teaspoon of Tom/Puree I use 1 Tablespoon ( per portion )I also add some quarterted fresh Tomato's at the time I add the Spices plus some fresh Corriander,also for Garnish.

Pre cooked Chicken as can be found on the forum -
Chicken Marinade.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3215.0

[JerryM]

moderator - this subject ideally needs moving to a new post so it does not mix up with the post subject

I noticed in the Malik's video's his base is very ' curry sauce ' looking ( brownish in colour )
whereas my base is more like the colour of Tomato Soup.
 

emin-j,

i think it must be the red pepper or the cooking time that's affecting the colour of the base. i would try green pepper initially and then a longer cooking (i cook 3 hrs in total). i would also add 500ml of water to thin the finished base to 3L. rest looks pretty good except maybe the amount of chilli which is really down to personal taste (i use 1 tsp and make up at cooking stage as needed). i also consider coriander stalk a must in a base.

method & cooking looks good.

[JerryM]

i think i'm pretty much sorted on the hit and miss of the smokey taste.

i cooked a curry sauce and a garlic chicken (ie with onion and pepper) last night both with smokey taste. so that's 3 in a row. the garage has happily billowed with smoke on each occasion.

i put it down to a very simple problem - the gas stove has a thumb wheel to adjust the heat but no visible indicator to say how hot. this i've done by sight (and probably should have gone to spec savers). i intend to put some kind of marker on it.

a final thought which may or not be of interest. i had TA this week for the 1st time since moding the stove. the normal "exceedingly good" chef was on a night off. the curries tasted as good as they normally do but no smokiness.

so i guess it proves that u don't necessarily need the smokiness to have a very good 10 curry. for me though having been brought up on it i won't be going back to my gas hob.

[JerryM]

i'm not sorted on the smokey taste at all.

in fact i'm well perplexed (i think that's the word for it).

i'd initially thought that the taste was connected to the smoke.

this week i've cooked twice. the 1st night i think i hit 3 out of 5 dishes and on the 2nd night 1 out of 5. 4 off were Admins Jalfrezi and the rest pretty much CK's madras.

i'm beginning to think that it is ingredient related partially as Admins's Jalfrezi and the Ashoka Korahi Bhuna don't seem to want to oblige with the smokey taste at all. the only ingredient that stands out as missing c/w madras is tom puree or passata.

trouble is the Madras are not being consistent either. 1 off was the best i've cooked. the remaining 5 off not quite there.

i've tried a few things out of desperation:
1) purposely set fire to the garlic/ginger - no effect
2) "swoshed" the pan contents around as opposed to stir infrequently - this does increase the amount of smoke significantly but no taste effect

the hit and miss is real annoying as the hit leaves me with nothing more to want. the miss is a good curry.

i'm now thinking it might be down to the proportion of oil that i use in the base. i keep it pretty low preferring to add the oil at frying stage. i aim for around 7% oil  c/w the uncooked volume of onion (100 ml in 800g onion). i'm thinking the oil in the base could be a factor as the 2nd night gave less smoke flavour than the 1st night. after the 1st night i watered the base down feeling that it was not thin enough. the extra water helps significantly with the cooking at this very high heat.

why i'm not totally sure it's not down to ingredient is that during cooking of the dish that was the best tasting so far i distinctly remember the passata creating a great plume of smoke when it was added. of course it could be the technique that i'm missing.

in short proving a hard nut to crack but well worth the effort.

i intend to make a heavy oil base next (will use the saffron) and see if this helps.

on a up note i feel i'm now at ease cooking at the high heat with no burns or black debris. nb the swoshing was not good in terms of making the inside rim of the pan difficult to keep clean and jumped out as defo not BIR practise.

[JerryM]

i had 2 potions of base left so decided to just add extra oil (calculated that what i had left contained 18ml of oil so added another 2 tbsp or 30ml).

then cooked 2 off CK's madras.

the 1st cooked by what i would say my norm technique: oil (3tbsp), quick g/g fry, spices/puree quick stir and leave to fry until cratering, add all base/coriander only stir occasionally. the resulting curry had the smokey taste but no better than my norm.

the 2nd i cooked slightly different: more oil (5 tbsp - i used up what i had left), left spices much longer (almost at burn), added base a chef spoon at a time (as opposed to ladle) and quick swosh with spoon around the pan and repeat.

i felt i got a lot more smoke on the 2nd. nb despite more oil being added there is none on the surface of the finished dish - saying to me it's all been burnt into smoke. without tasting i would have said the 2nd would have been smokier.

it certainly was - as good as it gets.

i now think it might just be down to how much oil is added at cooking time. don't feel the change to what's in the base is relevant. i'm not really convinced that the different approaches to cooking made the difference - but that's what i'll tryout out a bit more when i make base next. adding the base a bit at a time is of interest - timing the spices to almost burn is very camacarzi and just not BIR.

[mickdabass]

Hi Jerry
did you think that cooking the spices for so long cooked out the flavour/spicyness of the final dish? I once read a thread by BE where he said that if you fry the spices for too long then your kitchen would smell like a bir but the finished curry will lack the subtle aromas?

[JerryM]

mickdabass,

since upping the burner there has been no change in the flavour/spicyness at all. i firmly believe that "burning" is the only issue with cooking the spices. i add water in the tom puree (2:1 water to puree) and feel this sort of protects the spices while they're cooking. for info i also add 1/2 ladle of base to effectively add extra water.

the "long" cooking is perhaps relative. i would say the norm i cook the spices is 30 secs. i feel last night's curry no 2 was about 60 secs (i don't time it relying on sight and smell).

i've also tried out the "slow boat" method of cooking and feel overall the spices are cooked to the same extent (ie lower heat for longer). i don't believe it's possible (in fact essentially 100% sure) u can't get the smokiness taste (the smell is like walking into a BIR TA) without the high heat.

in switching to the bigger burner jet the only real difficulty i've found is in sort of adapting the technique to accommodate the much faster cooking and temp. this i essentially do through timing in making sure there is always free water in the pan. in a nut shell the only downside is the higher potential for black debris around the pan inner edges if things don't go as they should - but it's down to practise.

u can't cook in your kitchen either (too much smoke and mess). i'd also add that u don't need the smokiness in most dishes either (only madras and korahi type dishes).

[Derek Dansak]

Jerry not sure if this is of use, but it may help. the chef at my local bir adds very little oil to the base (half a cup) but adds loads of water and makes it very very thin. much thinner than safron. he then adds about 7 - 9 tbs oil at frying stage. i have had great results copying this approach. hope other members do to. interestingly they add the spice mix after they add the base sauce to the pan. i guess with so much oil and heat in the pan, the spices get properly cooked, and there is less risk of burning. it seems to work well for them.

[JerryM]

DD,

u're a star - very much of use.

i'd come to the same conclusion on the base a while ago (little oil and much water much thinner than saffron). i've been experimenting with the water for a few weeks now. the extra water really helps the cooking (no black debris) but too much and it becomes obvious as it takes too long to evap off (i aim for 3 mins or so).

the oil at frying stage is something i'd started to think about but your chefs 7-9 tbs sounds as if it might just sort me out. in moving from the 3 tbsp norm (2 tbsp before upgrading the stove) to 5 tbsp the other night i felt it could well be what i need to stop the hit and mis. i'll give it a go for sure. the health factor is not an issue as it's all burned off.

the technique on spice timing again is very interesting - i've not tried it but would certainly ease the cooking loads. it's sits well for me and i will certainly give it a go.

many thanks DD. it' been proving a tad difficult to pin down what's happening to end up with the hit and miss when i feel i do everything exactly the same. i'm possibly just on the boarderline and your suggestions may just do it - fingers crossed.

i'd like to get on with recipe refinement but feel bogged down at the mo.

[mickdabass]

Jerry M
Sorry for the delay in replying, but thanks for the very concise answer