Topic: Almighty disaster - questions chopped onion frying

[JerryM]

i've wrestled with "chopped onion" at frying stage for some time. in the past i've tried pre cooking and for quite a while now i've used raw believing this to be what BIR's do.

in short i now think chopped onions need to be pre cooked. the question is how do BIR's pre cook them - in water "par boil" or in oil "par fry".

background:

Beaver's post put me onto a video of garlic chicken which i think i'd seen in a previous post or on utube and have cooked before http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5036.msg48310#msg48310

had one almighty disaster last night sort of copy cat cooking it.

i got carried away (did not follow the recipe) adding g/g paste right at the start before the chef spoon of garlic slithers.

i am already well aware of what happens when u over cook g/g paste - becomes sticky and forms black debris very quickly. i generally as a precaution actually add the g/g paste as the oil heats up to prevent this.

anyhow the heat to cook the slithers and then the onion wrecked the pan - full of black debris around the rim. had to clean it in service for the 1st time ever.

this really knocked me off my pace. i started the dish off again but realised i had used the mix powder and needed to fetch more. i left the garlic slithers/onion in the hot oil off the heat and journeyed off to the kitchen.

on return the onion was translucent (not caramelised) and much better cooked than i normally achieve.

the end result was a notch up towards BIR. i've known for a while that more oil (say 6 tbsp c/w my norm 4 tbsp) achieves closer to BIR but had not established why. i now believe it's down to somehow cooking the onion better.

trouble is to cook within BIR times even using the extra oil i can't see the onions cooking out to the same extent. i now can't help questioning that BIR's like other ingredients use pre "part" cooked chopped onion.

the question is how. dellydel's post on his demo is very relevant. this suggests pre fry in oil. this is certainly a strong contender given the demo.

can anyone else confirm this as i'd like to put the alternative of a quick par boil out of the equation (this being a much easier process given the volumes a BIR must get through)

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4329.0

[JerryM]

forgot to add pic

[parker21]

hi jerry you have to remember that the onions in a bir will have been sitting out in a warm kitchen for quite a while, and may have been blanched for 1 min in hot water or sprinkled with salt to draw out the moisture then drain and washed to get off the salt therefore changing the texture of the onion. the undercover curry book suggests this when making the onion bhajis. the onion salad will have the same treatment with the addition of a little lemon juice/dressing. hope this is worth a try?
regards
gary

[emin-j]

Hi JerryM ,
I am always impressed with your determination for BIR perfection  I ' experiment  ' myself most Saturday's when cooking our Curries and last night added 1/4 tsp Cardamom powder and 1/4 tsp of Cloves powder but no gain  I just cant help thinking back to watching my Madras being made at our favourite T/A just the usual G/G , Spice Mix, Chilli powder , bit of fresh Coriander and their Curry Base and the Madras was fantastic and unlike some of our other T/A we have never had a bad Curry !
I really believe this missing 5 % is in the Oil whether it's in the Base Gravy the final Curry or both . Before we had our first Indian Curry we used to buy Chinese and really enjoyed all the food from the one we used and we used to cook our own Chinese style foods sometimes but could never anywhere near match the flavour of the T/A . The whole family tried to fathom out what this ' special ' flavour was that we couldn't emulate , then it struck me ! : Everything we had from this T/A had this wonderful flavour - even the Chips ! It had to be the Oil  Keep up the good work Jerry 
 

[Panpot]

Jerry you are a giant amongst us as you search for perfection. I have a meeting in Glasgow with a very popular owner of one of the city's top BIRs and not an Ashoka. I will ask whether they pre cook and ask how they do so with the onions. It occurs to me too that I may be able to ask a small list of questions, so if you and any of the others want to help with a wee list I will see what comes about. I also still have a mobile no for the actual Ashoka Head Chef back when I visited. I will text to see whether he can take a call on the matter or even just text me back an answer. Thanks for helping us all reach for higher results though there can't be much more to climb

[dellydel]

Jerry,

As you mention on my demo the onions and peppers come out of a pot where they have been pre fried in oil and turmeric.  These onions and peppers were finely sliced about 1" long, similar to the way the onions are chopped for the salad to go with poppadoms.  Normally a large chefs spoon is added to the pan on relevant dishes and warmed through.  However, with regards to dishes with large slices of onion in eg. Korai, I'm not sure, but to me the large onion and peppers have a smokey taste, almost like they have been roasted or grilled over flames!

[JerryM]

interesting stuff as always from you all.

easy one 1st. spiced oil is a key piece of the jigsaw for me. yes u can use clean veg oil. if u want that extra mile it's got to be oil from the base. the base needs whole spice in it to work the magic though. the chef at my local TA starts every dish with oil scooped off the top of the base pot - that's enough evidence for me.

i have tried in the past pre part cooking the chopped onion (~3mm sq). i've tried both oil (spiced) and water.

the oil method was simply 1 or 2 tbsp in the wok on high heat and a very quick stir fry - 2 to 3 mins - all u are aiming at is to get it up to temperature and then let it continue to cook as it cools - u're certainly only looking to part cook it.

this produced very good results.

the water method was to drop the onion into boiling water containing 1 tsp turmeric and 1/4 tsp salt then simmer 5 mins and drain immediately. recollection was that this produced comparable results but was far easier on the effort. with hindsight i would now look to simmer for 3 mins topps.

i somehow got off doing this pre cook (probably when i switched to the bigger heat). i am now certain BIR's pre cook and it makes a difference. i'd just like to adopt the method closest to what BIR's use.

i am pretty sure the large slices dellydel refers to are fried from raw to produce the smokey taste they have - it seems easier when cooking them to get the edges "burnt" and to know that when they start to break up they are cooked.

[JerryM]

i had 2 portions of base in the fridge and could not resist trying the pre cook out.

i made 2 portions of onion (ea x1.5 medium onion) and cooked using the 2 different methods.

there was no discernible difference in the finished dish between the 2 methods. i feel the par boil is easier to do and have adopted as std going fwd. i used 3 mins simmer after it came back to the boil which i feel was too short and will use the original 5 mins simmer going fwd.

the other thing to mention if u intend to use the pre cook is the timing for ending the onion cooking during the dish frying ie when u cook the pre cooked in the curry. when u add the onion to the oil it initially seems to dry up the oil. u then need to keep cooking the onion on full wack until the oil starts to re appear - u are looking for the onions to become translucent but it ain't easy to decide when but the appearance of the oil is much easier to spot. it takes quite a long time - far more than the 45 secs in the video - something like x2. this extra cooking is crucial to getting the moorish taste in the finished dish.


LH fried, RH boiled


finished dishes (further sort of copy cat's of the garlic chicken)

[Panpot]

Jerry, outstanding work, go straight to the top of the class, thanks for this.PP

[JerryM]

go straight to the top of the class

it demonstrates to me how far we "CRO members " have collectively come - i made this dish a good while ago and it's startling now how different it tastes.

this could not of been achieved without everyone's views and help etc.