Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Hints, Tips, Methods and so on.. => Topic started by: markt01 on November 19, 2012, 05:36 PM
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Hi there, I am quite new to the home Indian Restaurant style cooking, I have been practising a little and trying to pick tips up along the way, I am a very competent cook but when it comes to BIR I have alot to learn!!
My question is regarding the tenderising of chicken, how do they get it silky soft to the mouth as well as marinate it.
If anyone can help would be great to hear, many thanks,
From Newbie Mark wannabe Indian chef
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Mark
I tend to cook my chicken as I go, i.e. not pre-cook it, but I think the technique you are looking for is along the lines of slowly cooking it in a spiced water with no pre-frying. On the rare occasions that I do this I just gently simmer in some base and stir or turn the chicken to ensure even cooking.
The secret I guess is just to cook it enough that it's not raw, but not overly so and you end up with stringy chicken. I'm sure others will maybe give you more specific suggestions that will be worth following.
Hope this helps.
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Wasn't it Abdul Mohed who told us that, in his experience, most BIR's use one or two special imported brands of South American chicken ? That may play a part in it.
(Updated) -- No, it was Ifindforu. I don't think we ever got to the bottom of whether "Murg[h]ee" was a brand or simply a female bird, but Sadia was the Brazilian brand of which he wrote. These were my last comments on the names he used :
the type of chicken used in BIR dishes is Murgee brand chicken as this stays soft for longer, and sardia or noble chicken for chicken tikka
I didn't know this. So what is the chicken that we get in the supermarket then? I always thought that "Murgi or Murgee" was Indian for chicken?
Did this ever get resolved ? Sadia (no "r") is indeed a Brazilian supplier of chicken that exports widely [1] (http://www.gmwa.org.uk/foodguide2/index.php?page=viewquestion&id=88) but Ifindforu's "Murg[h]ee" is, as far as I can tell, simply the generic Hindhi word for a hen (female chicken) as opposed to murghaa, a cock (male chicken) [2] (http://bir-recipes.org.uk/Culinary-terms/Murgh.html). This would make perfect sense : one would expect a hen bird not to toughen as quickly as a cock bird when cooked. As regards "Noble", there seem to be two possibilities. The first is that this refers to chickens supplied by the UK company Noble Foods [3] (http://tinyurl.com/Noble-foods), who are the UKs largest producer of eggs (and must, therefore, almost certainly be involved in the sale of chickens). Alternatively, the term "Noble" is used in Brazilian ("carnes nobres") to refer to the best parts of an animal. This again would make perfect sense in the context of chicken tikka, as this is (in my experience, anyway) invariably made from the breast or "most noble" part of the bird.
** Phil.
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[1] http://www.gmwa.org.uk/foodguide2/index.php?page=viewquestion&id=88 (http://www.gmwa.org.uk/foodguide2/index.php?page=viewquestion&id=88)
[2] http://bir-recipes.org.uk/Culinary-terms/Murgh.html (http://bir-recipes.org.uk/Culinary-terms/Murgh.html)
[3] http://tinyurl.com/Noble-foods (http://tinyurl.com/Noble-foods)
** Phil.
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markt01
We marinate all our chicken - cut up your chicken into the required size bits you want chuck it in a bowl chuck in some ground turmeric and give it a stir - then chuck in plain yoghurt and stir it all up. Either leave covered on the kitchen side for 4 hours or you can bag and tag and shove in the fridge. HOWEVER if in the fridge take out long before cooking it to warm to room temperature - meat does not like to be cooked form cooled.
We pre-cook our chicken by boiling in water. NOT long chicken pieces don't take long to cook.
We cook 50 to 80 kilos of chicken a day this way - it is tender in our curry
best, Rich
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Hi Mark
I've also found that it's important not to over boil the chicken. After boiling point has been reached I lower the heat to a gentle simmer for 10-15 minutes and then allow the chicken to cool in the cooking fluid.
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Mark
In a Bengali BIR, theres an old school way of boiling the Chicken,
plus a more modern "Handi Cook" method, involving a Bhagar and whole Garam spices.
You rarely get that boiled background taste with the Handi method. Plus it's moist and tender.
cheers Chewy
Murghee and Mr Murghee are Brands of Frozen Chicken fillets from Brazil 70% or !00%.
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Murghee and Mr Murghee are Brands of Frozen Chicken fillets from Brazil 70% or !00%.
So they are :
01MM Murghee Master Chicken fillet 85% 10kg
01MRMB Mr. Murghee Chicken fillet 85% 10kg
One lives and learns. Thank you, CT.
** Phil.
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In a Bengali BIR, theres an old school way of boiling the Chicken,
plus a more modern "Handi Cook" method, involving a Bhagar and whole Garam spices.
You rarely get that boiled background taste with the Handi method. Plus it's moist and tender.
Chewy - can you elaborate on this method? Getting fork tender chicken is an area I could definitely improve on...
I've found ifindforu's to be the most "BIR authentic" in taste and aroma, using whole bengali spices, but I feel his method overcooks the chicken, as I can't get it very tender his way.
Thanks,
Josh
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Although slightly off topic but nonetheless related, I'd be interested to know if anyone has tried soaking chicken in brine before marinating for tandoori chicken?
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Hi Mark,
Like Stephen I cook as I go, the best way I found to do my chicken is in a very hot oven. I mix a marinade of mustard oil and spice mix, coat the chicken, then pop on a tray and cover it in lightly in foil. This goes in the oven at its hottest setting and sits for about 15mins. It always comes out very moist.
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I agree with Vinders as well - which i omitted to put on my earlier reply - After boiling is reached we turn down the heat and leave on a rolling boil for 4 mins ish then turn off the heat. Leave for a few mins (5) in the boiling water then take the chicken out - pre cooked - simple and tender
best, Rich
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I use a meat thermometer, the sort with an extended probe on a wire. I have found it indispensable when cooking all meats, whether in an indian dish or otherwise. For pre-cooked chicken I put a few breasts in cold water in a large pan with the probe in the centre of one breast. When it reaches 140f I take them all out and let them rest. Once slightly cooled (the internal temp will rise another 10f or so) I cut into cubes. Then I cook the sauce and put the chicken cubes in once I've taken the sauce off the heat. The chicken will finish cooking to tender perfection in the hot sauce.
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You don't need no imported chickens. Cut it up into chunks, and pressure cook it with your preferred precook spices etc plus a little extra water. 8 minutes from the second it comes up to pressure. Done! Super soft chicken breast.
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If you start with a good raw ingredient, I think it's pretty hard to end up with tough chicken - it is very forgiving, and very flexible as the wide variety of different cooking methods on this thread show.
This is not an easy subject, but a lot of BIRs use chicken that has been bulked by injection with protein/brine solution. It not only inflates the meat-packer's profits, but results in a tenderized product.
I don't like the idea myself. We buy chicken in bulk from a wholesalers and I have checked carefully on the labeling for any indication of pre-treatment - there is none. (The chicken happens to be Halal, by the way, which is interesting because the wholesaler is for the French restaurant / catering market, which is not widely noted for its use of Halal meat.)
Our method is simply to fry off some minced onion/ginger/garlic in quite a lot of oil and cook the chicken chunks with a little gravy, haldi, bay leaf, mix powder and salt. It fries at first but then develops a liquor. We cook for 8 mins past this point then leave it to rest with the lid on for 20 mins. Our temperature guide is to exceed 80C for 10 mins. We don't add any liquid other than a little gravy as that just ends up making a soup.
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Either buttermilk or a mix of milk and yogurt, marinade for several hours is a regular process for fried chicken. A little sugar and salt in the mix helps. Just don't ask how to tenderise a cuttlefish. I know it can be done but I, sure as anything, cant do it.
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How about the chinese method for velveting chicken and meat? Basicly left in cornflour for a bit IIRC. They add soy etc of course, being as it's for a chinese, but for Indian, use equally reflective spices- perhaps a touch of mix?
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the Brazilian brand of which he wrote.
Brazilian Chicken
I know this is an old topic but I have good info to share on this subject. In my old life we used tons of Brazilian chicken breast meat every day.
At the time (and maybe this is still the case), the EU imposed different tarrifs on different types of chicken meat imports from outside the EU. One way to achieve a lower tarrif was to "process" the breast meat in some way.
The Brazilian supplier would add 1.2% salt to their breast meat. Now for those who don't know, a reasonable level of salt in a meal is somewhere around 0.5-0.7%. Once you get up to 1.2%, the product starts to taste "salty". Obviously those who designed the tarrif criteria knew this, and knew that this "salted chicken" would not be acceptable to the average housewife/husband, and thus the tarrif helped protect the EU chicken industry.
We used to use this salted chicken in chicken nuggets, burgers, etc. The factory recipe called for 0.6% of salt in the meat mix. This was easily achieved by mixing half a ton of 1.2% salted chicken with half a ton of "normal" chicken. The resulting meat mix had 0.6% salt, bang on target.
Now this Brazilian 1.2% salted chicken breast meat also found its way in to the food service sector, i.e. those companies that supply the restaurant trade. The substantially lower cost was unresistable for many. I can, and have, noticed this salted chicken being used in curries. Questioning the owner and they admit, yes, it is Brazilian salted chicken, but the price is too good to resist. And anyway, most customers just don't notice it.
Salting chicken can help tenderise it, and this could be one reason why some people wonder why their home-cooked chicken doesn't have the same mouth-feel.
How to get the best results at home
The first thing to realise is that the root cause of "tough chicken" could be totally out of your control.
During the slaughter process, birds are first stunned before having their throats cut, and then they are hung upside down to bleed out. The two main types of stunning are electric and gas (pretty much like your cookers in the UK :) ). Electric stunning can be problematic if the stun isn't applied properly and at the right level. It can cause the muscle to seize up, resulting in tough meat.
There is also a second theory about the stress level of the birds at point of slaughter, but there was less hard evidence for this.
Guidelines to maximise chance of tender chicken
1. Start off with good raw material. Buy fresh chicken where you can, from reputable suppliers that have full traceability of their supply chain. Cheap chicken is cheap for a reason. Cuts are made in the supply chain, processes are not controlled and audited to the same level.
2. Try to avoid cooking twice. You're just doubling the opportunities to dry out your chicken. Freezing in itself also causes loss of moisture.
3. Invest in a digital probe cooking thermometer. 8
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As well as marinading the chicken (lemon juice is good) always cook from room temperature, ie not from fridge to pan, let it warm up for an hour or so.
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As well as marinading the chicken (lemon juice is good) always cook from room temperature, ie not from fridge to pan, let it warm up for an hour or so.
I've always thought that the "bringing meat up to room temperature to increase tenderness" was a myth.
I wouldn't advise letting any meat sit around in the warm, as any baceria present will only grow quicker.
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The idea is to allow the meat, that is all m to relax and reach room temperature before cooking, "sitting around in the warm". was not what was
being suggested.
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Mickyp, it takes quite some time for chicken fillets to warm up from fridge temp (under 4
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All meats have loads of those things on them and in them which is why we cook em lol, im still of the school room temp before cooking.
that said Rice is a different kettle of fish , i never have that lying around after its been cooked.
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Chilled or room temp, raw chicken cooks the same, makes no difference either way,
Just more trivia aimed at risk averse, noncooks and has nothing to do with tenderising or cooking tender chicken.
Learning how to cook usually sorts that out. ;)
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Chilled or room temp, raw chicken cooks the same, makes no difference either way,
Just more trivia aimed at risk averse, noncooks and has nothing to do with tenderising or cooking tender chicken.
Learning how to cook usually sorts that out. ;)
I totally agree with you there, I learn new things practically every day, do you ? ;)
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The cooking of meat from room temperature is primarily used for large cuts of steak, where if cold it would cause the cooking surface to cool and the meat would stew instead of searing. It would usually suffice to remove from the fridge 15 minutes before cooking. I would not say it has any relation to tenderness or any other quality of the meat and is only required for large pieces. Not chicken. Raw chicken should be kept refrigerated as much as possible prior to cooking.
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For anyone still unsure about the "myth factor" of this "take meat out 30 mins before cooking" advice, that is touted around by chefs:
1. Take a lump of meat out of the fridge and put it on the worktop.
2. Stick a digital cooking thermometer in it.
3. Start your stop watch,
Hint: It takes a very long time, much longer than you every thought. I was on my second bottle of wine by the time my meat reached "room temperature",
That's all factual.
More subjectively, for me, I have never noticed any benefit from letting meat warm up to room temperature. Of course others might have difference experiences.
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For anyone still unsure about the "myth factor" of this "take meat out 30 mins before cooking" advice, that is touted around by chefs:
1. Take a lump of meat out of the fridge and put it on the worktop.
2. Stick a digital cooking thermometer in it.
3. Start your stop watch,
Hint: It takes a very long time, much longer than you every thought. I was on my second bottle of wine by the time my meat reached "room temperature",
That's all factual.
More subjectively, for me, I have never noticed any benefit from letting meat warm up to room temperature. Of course others might have difference experiences.
This time taken would indicate your waiting for the internal temperature of chicken /meat o reach room temperature, bad idea. Generally the advice you talk wrongly about is it to let the chicken relax in room temperature (briefly) before cooking. This because it
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Generally the advice you talk wrongly about is it to let the chicken relax in room temperature (briefly) before cooking. This because it
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well for tonights meal i think i will cook the can of worms i have opened, after they have got to room temp of course :)
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well for tonights meal i think i will cook the can of worms i have opened, after they have got to room temp of course :)
:D
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BIRs will get soft chicken by pre cooking it to the right stage. When you cook chicken it will start fairly tender but with a tight texture, go through a tough stage if cooked for longer, but then get to the soft and tender stage that I recognise from a good BIR if cooked for half an hour or more.
Nothing to do with taking it out of the fridge prior to cooking imho.
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well for tonight's meal i think i will cook the can of worms i have opened, after they have got to room temp of course :)
To be honest, I think that healthy (and scientific) debate on potentially important issues such as whether bringing chilled food up to room temperature before cooking can contribute to improved tenderness is what makes this forum such a useful resource.
On the other hand, posts such as "OMG, that looks wonderful. I could eat that for breakfast", and/or arguments over whether member X has made sufficient contributions to the forum to be referred to as "one of this forum's greatest contributors" add little if anything that could conceivably be of benefit to future visitors to the forum.
My EUR 0,02.
** Phil.
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I like a healthy debate and it's only by challenging ourselves (and each other), that we can get to the core facts.
After all, it wasn't so long ago that I was still telling people that a swan's wing is so strong that it can break your arm. ;D
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Adding some stock to my can of worms, this is julian Voigt's take on tenderising meat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz0dOmVS0KY
if the link doesn't work first time refresh the page.
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Adding some stock to my can of worms, this is julian Voigt's [video] take on tenderising meat.
The marinade recipe to which Julian refers can be found below. Incidentally, I like your pun on stock (footage) !
** Phil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AierdApIQj0
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@littlechili
Polite bump in case you missed the replies to this thread, Would be really great to have your input :)