Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Sauce, Curry Base , Curry Gravy Recipes, Secret Curry Base => Topic started by: Chilli Prawn on October 31, 2006, 03:31 PM
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Hi all, I had a long and productive meeting with Mark this morning at his work. As expecetd there were a few things that popped out of the woodwork regarding his UCB and Vindaloo recipes. I will modify the UCB later but here is the gists of the meeting.
1. UCB
He definitely does not believe that the base can be made in smaller quantities by simply cutting down on ingredients; he has tried it!
The only change he made was to the Onions (re some queries here). He said to top the pot up with onions as before, but only peel and cut the onions in half and no smaller. This way will reduce the amount of onions used and the quantity of stock.
Cook the base until the onions are practically melting and remove and blitz them to a fine puree. Then do the rest as per recipe.
The measurements are in heaped chefs spoons not ladles.
When using the base in recipes it must be warmed before adding to the dish!
If you freeze the base; after you defrost it you must blitz it again in a blender it to amalgamate it, or it will not work properly (he said that goes for all bases)
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2. Bases
Now if you recall I have said on occasions that besides the master base BIRs usually have other bases in smaller pots around them; I will have three or four. I am sure you will recognise what Ihe says because you all have mentioned or refreed to the following but not all as one process. So here are a real BIR chefs secrets on how to get the BIR taste and smell. And yes they do change the day after because of this process.
Typically the 'bases' would be the following: The master base, a tomato base (recipe later), the water from the Akhni, the oil(s) from the bases and precook mix, saved excess oil from other dishes. Now the last may amaze you: by the side of their cokkers they have a pot of water in which they place their ladles after cooking their dishes, and this gets like a soup after a while. They use this to add flavour to the dish also. I also have a plain cooked onion base, and a Barga base which I add to certain dishes, this is a Punjabi thing though.
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3. Tomato Base
This is used in most of his recipes and if you watch the curry progs on telly you will usually see them using it. It is very simple and very effective; and more importantly it is what contribute to the BIR taste.
Ingredients. Half pint of butter ghee, one whole head of Garlic (smoked is best), 4 heaped catering (Chefs - see my measurement post) spoons of good quality tomato paste.
Peel the garlic (and remove the skin this time!), and finely slice the garlic along the length so it looks like slivers of Almonds.
Heat the oil on low flame and add the Garlic. Cook very gently utill the Garlic has softened and add the Tomato paste. Turn the heat up and stir for 3-5 mins until the oil and tomato separate, do not let it catch or burn; if it does then throw it away. Add a little water to get a consitency like double cream. That is it!
This base is used to marinate and fuse meats prior to or during cooking.
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4. Onion base
Use as many onions as you want. Peel them and chop them in to large chunks.
Bring a pan of water to the boil (enough water to cover the onions)
Lob in the onions a a little salt.
Bring back to the boil for three minutes and then strain off the water. This removes the acidic taste from the onions.
Allow to cool and then blitz to a fine pulp
Heat out 1 cup of vegetable oil in a pan, the amount will depend on how many onions you use. You will need to add more oil later so don't worry. Fry the onions gently for a few minutes and you should see the oil start to rise; if it doesn't then keep adding oil from time to time until it does. Cook until the onions become transparent and golden colour. I let then stick a little (not too much or it will ruin the base) and then stir to give a faint fried onion flavour (a Northern India thing!). You should be able to see plenty of oil when the onions are ready. Don't let the base sit around or it will start to go rancid; so place cling film over it and put it in the fridge. Alternatively this base can be frozen. Don't use utensils that have been used for meat products, always wash them thoroughly first. If don't do this the base (and any base for that matter) will be contaminated and will not last, even if frozen.
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5. Barga Onion Base - already posted by me.
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6. Spoon base, just wash your spoons in a tin/jug of water and keep water ;D
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7. Oils, well I don't think I need to explain this, but be very careful not to contaminate with meat products.
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8. BIR techniques
What you have been waiting for! It is the order in which you add and cook the ingredients which is the key to success, so follow the recipe religiously.
High heat is essential at the start.
Use a simple frying pan, or saucepan. He doesn't use woks.
Lots of oil and salt are essential, Veg oil is OK
Always finish the dish when it is ready to serve with a spash of Ghee or Oil base on top
The use of the bases in the right quantity and order is essential
Resting the dish after cooking is essential
The fusing & stirring technique is esssential (see below)
The stirring technique is absolutely esssential and is what gives that flavour. This is not easy for me to explain easily. I use a steel chefs spoon or a steel ladle. When you are flash frying the dish you press sauce with the spoon or ladle against the bottom of the pan in a stirring motion to fuse it, but do not let it stick so scrape it regularly. Make sure you get under the meat or veg you don't want to break them up. When the sauce starts to fuse you will get the famous smell and then you will also get the flavour. I will try and describe this whole thing in a new posting of the UCB Vindaloo (because Mark did not explain the things above properly previously - I still like it though).
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9. Precooking Meats
Slight change here. When precooking Chicken, do not use water! He showed me using a 12 pint pot. Use absolutely loads of oil - about 50% of the volume of the Chicken. Heat the Oil on a medium heat and cook the wole spices for a few seconds and then reduce heat and add powdered spices and let them fizz a couple of seconds (don't burn!) and the cubed chicken and cook until the chicken is almost cooked (still pinkish), keep the oild topped up above the level of the Chicken. Remove from the heat and store in a cool place until ambient temp is reached ( as quickly as possible) and then store in fridge. You can find the spice recipe in my UCB precooking of meat.
If you are cooking lamb or mutton you must boil it first for about 1/2 to 1 hour depending on the quality of the meat and then use the process described for the Chicken above.
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That is it from the horses mouth! We are going to meet up on his day off and work out some recipes, and plan the video. Mark is well aware of the video and book failures in the past and is already working on the story board!
I will re-post Vindaloo, Madras, and Korma recipes as per updates.
I did press Mark several times on issues you have raised and he is adamant that he has told me all and there are no secret ingredients, there are no complex spice mixes (everything is very simple), one stop one pot bases will not work properly, what you see above is what it is all about. Finally two points you raised. First use your eyes and nose all the time not your tongue (did I not say that many times ;) ) only taste before you are ready for service to adjust seasoning. Second "Why do BIRs taste/smell different the next day?" It is simply because of the techniques used above which release flavours and smells ultra quick an therfore they are mostly dissipated by the next day.
Gosh I am knackered :'( Is anyone going to by me a pint please.
Don't shout at me I am only the messenger but I will take note of any sensible queries and pass them on. I don't want to p**s Mark off, especially as my Son may be going to work with him for a while!
Sorry too knackered to correct any spelling mistakes at this time.
Happy trials
CP
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I forgot to add, but any veggies that we have mentioned can be added to the base stock, but it is important to use the Knorr Stock base.
CP
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Well I'm just in the last stage of making the base (to the original recipe), it's on its final simmer now. I tasted the base before adding the final spice base mix and it is very nice just as it is, so I halved the base and only added an appropriate amount of the final spice base to one half only. Now I have two bases to play with. I certainly wouldn't call the base with all the spices in it subtle, anything but. I tasted it and it already has a madras/vindaloo flavour to it. I'm personally not in favour of this sort of base because it doesn't allow for much variation in the final dishes. However I'll defer final judgement until I have actually made a couple of curries. I do think the half base without the spices is the winner at this stage though.
YF
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the update is much appreciated CP :D...im definatly going to give it a try(albeit with much reduced oil due to recent "acquisition"of diabetes :'( )...your friend Mark sounds like a top bloke..perhaps we could have a new thread here dedicated to his contributions and tips(or indeed a thread for genuine BIR chefs recipes/advice)?..
lags
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Well done YF! I agree that it is a bit spicy but you can always reduce the chilli. I await with baited breath for your results.
Legathy, sorry to hear of your Diabetes, I am also a Diabetic (T2 for past 8 years) but I don't worry too much about the oil. You could try some of the lighter oils like Rapeseed but take care as they burn easily. I think Mark would be very flattered, but he is a retiring type and would not care for his own thread!
CP
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Excellent post Cp you old Dog, really giving us hopefully more insight on how to achieve the Taste/Smell, like the point about the technique affecting the Curry the next day (as we discussed) it does seem to be moving in the right direction i cant wait to make my next base in a few weeks.
Is it true then that many of the good bases & simple recipes can be used combined with "the Technique" ( does this deserve to be in the Glossary of terms alongside "The Taste"?) give virtually the same Bir style results ?
Thank you CP for your efforts in such a short time matey. ;)
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Lots of oil and salt are essential, Veg oil is OK
Your not suggesting an excessive use of salt are you CP :P
Thanks for the update BTW I will get round to trying this next.
cK
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Salt pwnes CK !!!! :D
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Yeah! Ok Ok I dug a hole I know :-[. I feel like the bloke in that Piccie that Spicy URLed :'(
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ah...another fellow diabetic CP...soz to hear :P dyou have any suggestions as to when the best time/stage would be to remove the oil(i also have high cholesterol rofl,dunno wot im doing eating curries really...but ive been obssessed with em for over 15 years,so im notgonna quit now ;D)...im presuming to retain all the tastes etc you should leave it until the very end,where you actually make the whole dish and just scoop iot off the top??
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I assume you are on Statins 'L' ? If you are then you really do need to be careful (read up on super/high statin doses). I have worked on reduced oil dishes for a long time and I & family, customers like/prefer them, but I have to be very honest and say they are not quite the same. Yes do as you say, so if you like oily curry, first ensure that the curry has de-homogenised, i.e the oil has fully separated. Then skim off the excess oil (you can always use it for the next curry).
CP
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Superb stuff CP, excellent read and very informative
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3. Tomato Base
This is used in most of his recipes and if you watch the curry progs on telly you will usually see them using it. It is very simple and very effective; and more importantly it is what contribute to the BIR taste.
Ingredients. Half pint of butter ghee, one whole head of Garlic (smoked is best), 4 heaped catering (Chefs - see my measurement post) spoons of good quality tomato paste.
Peel the garlic (and remove the skin this time!), and finely slice the garlic along the length so it looks like slivers of Almonds.
Heat the oil on low flame and add the Garlic. Cook very gently utill the Garlic has softened and add the Tomato paste. Turn the heat up and stir for 3-5 mins until the oil and tomato separate, do not let it catch or burn; if it does then throw it away. Add a little water to get a consitency like double cream. That is it!
This base is used to marinate and fuse meats prior to or during cooking.
This is the most exciting find on this site in quite some time.
I had always assumed the tomato paste that the chefs add is nothing more than paste, I didnt realise they prepared it like this and that may be key to the taste.
I was in my local takeaway tonight (the one I got the 35 onion base recipe from) I had never thought to ask about the tomato paste but tonight I pointed to it and asked if they prepare it before use, his reply: "yes we fry it in oil with garlic and a little spice" doh!
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Well done Mark, this is how we move forward and crack the 'code'
CP
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Actually Mark this has cropped up a few times before. Remember that Spanish curry house that was talked about a while ago? They used cans of Tomate Frito, which is fried tomatoes with garlic. Also the fried tomato theme is in KD's base and the Natco base although no garlic is added. Ain't nothing new in this here world. :D
In fact, although CP has pulled it all together in a single post, I can't really find anything in his methods that hasn't already been discussed at some time in the past.
YF
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ah, but sometimes going over old recipes & methods you pick something new, as you have moved on, your new knowledge can help you attain a better grasp of old information, do you not agree? :)
I remember an old Chef saying, no matter how you progress you must remember" basics, basics", i tend to agree, you can go so far forward that you forget fundamental rules & all of a sudden you are floundering in your Curry cooking.I have done it & I'm sure many have.
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Actually Mark this has cropped up a few times before. Remember that Spanish curry house that was talked about a while ago? They used cans of Tomate Frito, which is fried tomatoes with garlic. Also the fried tomato theme is in KD's base and the Natco base although no garlic is added. Ain't nothing new in this here world. :D
In fact, although CP has pulled it all together in a single post, I can't really find anything in his methods that hasn't already been discussed at some time in the past.
YF
No this is totally new, frito was discussed but we never came to the conclusion this was what the birs were doing with the tomato paste that was added in during final stage cooking. Again ditto re bases with fried tomato in.
I was in my local restaurant last night and quized the head chef on how they prepare the tomato paste they add during final stage cooking and he said they heat up oil, add garlic and then when it is brown they add the tomato paste with a little water (no spice this time), he said its important to get it bubbling otherwise it wont keep for long.
He also said that during final stag cooking they get the oil really hot and after adding dry spices you must add the tomato paste mixture very soon otherwise the spices burn
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We need CP back to help on this as it is an interesting point, i have asked (sorry Begged) for his return.
:)
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hi all
just to put my twopennith in.... ::) this is very similar to the rogan josh sauce in bruce edwards curryhouse cookery but that contains peppers :o have thought this for sometime. but when i come to think about it the tomato paste which i saw in my vindaloo demo at Rajver the paste seemed to be glossy/oily? so maybe this is the case. i have lately been following the ingredients/method of curryhouse cookery ie adding fine chopped green pepper after adding some garlic and they have been fantastic. i know this because my wife will remove any green pepper of reasonable size because she is not very keen on eating it. she does the same with chillies :o
YF ......life is circular (iynwim) we are very overprotective of the very hard work in which it has taken to reach this point. peeps have come and gone never to be heard from again.... :'( others have joined to poach, others are just newbies and are where we were when this site first started ;) but we should not be so critical like a bad teacher :-[
we all have ways of putting our thoughts across some can come across big headed others others sympathetic......but we are all here for one thing BIR curry :o :o :o ;)
kind regards
gary :) :-*
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This sounds like it could be something!! Hope someone tries it out soon, i was wondering whether to ask if someone had made a curry with a ridiculous amount of garlic in, as there cant be too many smells that give off such a strong smell as garlic, and i suspect garlic is apart of "the taste" but i reasoned that loads and loads of garlic would be time consuming and uneconomic and also probably not taste that good (you ever over garliced a dish?).. but a technique using garlic might go a long way towards the "the taste"?
Thing that concerns me is; CP said that he hadnt discovered the "the taste" but im almost certain he knows all about tomato frito so maybe it isnt part of the taste?
Mark, the restaurant which you say makes this, does it have the taste?
Ashes
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Yes it does
The natco base has a crazy amount of garlic in it, around 1.5 whole heads for about 1.4 litres of sauce and I rate it as the best
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Ah done an experiment on this!!!
After having a Take-away Curry my wife cannot smell much Garlic on me at all, but when i make my own Phall which has one whole globe of Garlic for a 4 portions dish, she says the Garlic is overpowering.
I have done this several times because i felt that Garlic was "The One" a long time ago, now im not so sure.
This is never ending, our quest. :)
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Darth it could be the way the garlic is added to the base, i know the French take about the core of the garlic as its usually bitter and it harder to digest., also garlic is strange, when boiled it can retain a kind of flavour that you wont get when it is fried. hard to explain :-\
but mark says his local has the taste, so this could very well be the beginnings of a new search into the world of garlic? Garlic does fit a lot of criteria for the taste and its one of those Spices/vegetables/fruit?/herbs that gives a fuller a flavour. It also helps stink out the car/boat/tent/igloo or wherever you live. Also Mark wrote "add garlic and then when it is brown they add the tomato paste with a little water (no spice this time), he said its important to get it bubbling otherwise it wont keep for long.". Doesnt "the taste" keep for "too long"? i.e., it diminishes after a while?
I hope this is part of the taste, really do, then we are half way there! ;D
regards Ashes
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I am intrigued now especially when you say about it diminishing.
CP was commenting about certain Bir/ Take-Away methods that incorporate this theory, he explained in depth & i must agree i will be further experimenting in the old Kitchen soon.
I think Mark J started a thread on this somewere about getting very close & having the Bir smell in his Kitchen the following day.
Was it you Mark?
This is a big site.
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Yes Ashes by us/the members going over the same ground from time to time we may inadvertently come across a real clue or definite step further forward on our quest IE, this Garlic point, has anyone tried powdered Garlic instead & what was the outcome? Hmmmmmm.
The Quest continues people ;)
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Yes Darth I have tried powdered garlic in Pat Chapmans curry powder recipe. Powdered garlic might be a fill out flavour in the taste.. but the taste is so much more than one ingredient. I suspect (as said) its garlic + technique? Garlic, other spices + technique.. ah the pot thickens ;)
;) Ashes
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Yes & as i wonder down the trail to the Curry secret i also believe that technique & a simple blend of Spices is key here, Ive made dam good Curries but as i grow in confidence & experience i have made my Curries over complex.
I'm going back to my roots as it were after speaking in length to Chilli Prawn about his techniques & recipe uses (relevant to this post ya see in the end).
Things to consider.
1. When using a base such as mine (complex & numerous in ingredients) perhaps the best end result would be to take a simple & quick cooking approach in the actual Curry (Second Stage).
2. To have success with a simple Base (Kris Dhillon style) you may want to make the second stage with a more complex Spice blend & experiment with various cooking techniques.
I attain much more success with number 1 as i think the complex base gives room for mistakes (I'm no Chef :(), were as the KD style in my humble opinion is very unforgiving if you don't get the second stage right.
Ashes do you find that powdered Garlic gives for a very different taste as opposed fresh ?
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I can only comment on how i have used powdered garlic, but i once thought it was a major part of the secret (because of others comments) but i haven't had that much success with it.
But as i said before, that doesn't mean that members shouldn't experiment. If i was to say, "absolutely NO" then there would be some who wouldn't even use it, not because "Ashes said it" but because we tend to accept what other members say without trying ourselves. After saying this, it makes plenty of sense that BIRs would use flavour enhancers and flavour fillers and if something works well i would imagine they would try and add it to the flavour.
So the jury is open on this one :)
Ashes
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I once came home with a Take-away, opened the container to find white powder on top of the curry, it was Garlic powder, which may also indicate the very quick style of cooking which is something that Chilli Prawn has gone over with me.
The secret to getting "the Taste/Smell".
I have his address, it looks like i will have to go & drag him onto the forum as i can see some interesting dialogue forthcoming on this subject (cue Chilli Prawn). ;D
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There are few reasons why i suspect you are right about the garlic powder, i have also read that the day after eating a curry some people get very dehydrated (might be the amount of lager that accompanies the curry? :)) some have said the amount of garlic powder they put in their curries.. But i suspect darth that garlic powder is added to some BIR but it isnt the secret, what ive seen, it seems to be a flavour filler, that's to say, something that adds to the over taste but not "the taste" or directly to "the taste" in itself, the fried garlic could very well be apart ( how big a part i dont know) of "the taste".
But as i said, try it out, experiment and post results. There are many members here, if only a few post their results we will have a better idea. But as i said; people must clarify how much of the taste they think it contributes. IE: non, some, quite a lot or all of "the taste" :)
Regards Ashes
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Question.
Can any Spice can act as a flavor enhancer (i don't think its as obvious as it may seem).
As we all know fresh powdered Spices are quite strong/intense & cooking them mellows the Spices even though the carrier (Oil) does help to transport the flavor of any Spice evenly throughout the dish enhancing it again but with a more rounded soft flavor if you get what i mean.
I'm also inclined to think that the spices say for a Take-away/Bir style dish are cooked for very little time on high heat for a good reason, even though it was probably found out by either mistake or cutting cost via cooking time many years ago.
Are we slowly coming to the same end & slowly just getting there with our constant going over old ground here at cr0?
As with many things its down to personal perception is it not, as we change does our perception, hence going over old ground isn't such a bad idea. ;)
I'm not sure but i don't think we have ever discussed this theory that quick cooked spices can act as a flavor enhancer in themselves (they ad flavor obviously, but can they act as an actual flavor enhancer, new twist?) :-\
Thanks CP & Ashes for your inspiration ;).
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Against all my pronouncements previously I have to interject; you s*ds :o You have set this up to drag me in. So a quick burst and then I am out again: Garlic and Ginger powder were the staple ingredients for the hot dishes in BIRs, and if you do a search you will find they appear in many traditional curries. also I think I have posted some points on this before. On the other point, I was originally going to post some stuff on cooking fresh Garlic Onions etcetera., because as mentioned these two ingredients react and change quite radically according to the way you cook them; as any BIR.
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How does the fresh Garlic Onion thing work then CP?
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Bog off I am not coming back!
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i have also read that the day after eating a curry some people get very dehydrated
I always put this down to the copious amounts of salt and MSG in the BIR curries
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When I have asked BIRs about MSG they always deny they use it. Apparently it is now illegal to use it if they don't state it on the menu. Salt! Wow do they use it!!!
Currygit
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CP can you repost the updated UCB recipe please as the quantity of ingredients are not clear (for the size of pot).
Also, I assume the whole spices are removed at some point before blending ? When ?
One final thing on the tomato base. You use half a pint of ghee and only 4 chef spoons of tomato puree. This sounds like too much ghee - can you double check please. And do you think we could use oil instead ? (slighly better for you)
thanks.
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Bear in mind chefs spoons are huge. I would guess at least 3 TBSP
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CP can you repost the updated UCB recipe please as the quantity of ingredients are not clear (for the size of pot).
Also, I assume the whole spices are removed at some point before blending ? When ?
One final thing on the tomato base. You use half a pint of ghee and only 4 chef spoons of tomato puree. This sounds like too much ghee - can you double check please. And do you think we could use oil instead ? (slighly better for you)
thanks.
Yes I am going to rewite the whole thing in light of Mark's recent additions. How about if I take the following approach as a complete process.
Making the base and I will add some photo's of the base product and measuring spoons etc.
Then make the Tomato base doing the same as above, (and yes it does have loads of oil, and yes you can just use the oil)
Make a Vindaloo (to keep the heat junkies happy :D ) from start to finish using the same approach as above again.
Hopefully you will then be able to get a better idea of the process from start to finish; and also the measurements.
This approach and your feedback would also help me and Mark with composing the video. Let me have your comments and I will get to work on it. By the way, this issue on ladles and spoons; Mark has given me the correct ladle size for his curries now, so that should clear some issues up.
I am a bit bizzy at the moment making up batches of different curries for the biz (as well as DIY jobs in the house!!!) So I shall try and get round to this next week.
May I say my huge thanks for the support from many of you. Its good to be back. Hopefully we can now all chill out and get on with the mission (beam me up Scotty I have the dilythium crystals)
Trust in the trip and chill out 8), and of course Happy Cooking! ;D
CP
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Perfect CP. cheers.
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Hey CP that sounds like a gear idea. I get confused with updates on old stuff. Will you post it as a new topic and close the old one?
Tanks. currygit
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Hi CG, I will but I will be guided by the members on where it should be posted (keep it clean folks ::) )
CP
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Thanks CP
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i have also read that the day after eating a curry some people get very dehydrated
I always put this down to the copious amounts of salt and MSG in the BIR curries
Yes Mark this could be the answer!
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you s*ds :o You have set this up to drag me in......
With respect CP this is open for any member to comment on.... This was not or is not (on my part) a plan to get you to reply ( i have too much respect for any member who wishes not to be apart, you know how i feel), there are plenty of qualified members here who can (if they want to ) interject. This is a serious subject; has the BIR curry garlic powder in it? Well i think i haven't had so much success with it, (as i said before, don't take members words as complete truth) a lot seem to reason that it has. As i also said, it makes sense to use it but i don't think its apart of the taste as a whole.
It goes to make a richer flavour although don't use too much of it. (don't take my word for it.. experiment)
Regards Ashes
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Another excellent and informative post Chili my man. If you lived in good old Geordieland I'd buy you a pint myself.
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Ashes ::) I was only joking (relates to a PM from Darth) and I too have equal respect for all members. As I said I think the issues of Garlic alone require a topic as do onions. The techniques in using them play a very important role. I have posted some responses on another thread regarding Garlic Powder and Ginger powder. I don't think MSG plays a role in BIR cooking, it would be too risky with current regulations, as I think curry git said. However, I have tried it and did not like the effect at all. IMHO salt and Garlic are the primary flavour enhancers, followed by ginger (in all forms), chilli (in all forms), and oil as the carrier. It is interesting that the Asian nation did not use Garlic prior to the Portugese or someone importing it I think, I am probably wrong as the meory is getting a little dodgy these days.
And yes there are many qualified to comment as you say.
SA, if I was up there (again) I would take a pint of Exhibition with you with pleasure. I spent many happy times up there over the years from Birtley to Alnwick!
CP
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I have never come across any restaurant or takeaway that uses garlic or ginger powder.
Probably, because fresh, is so cheap.
If I cook using garlic powder, it adds an extra something to the curry.
It fills the gap of the missing taste, we can't get.
The only place I ever heard of garlic powder, used in a curry, was from Pat Chapman's books.
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I am not sure about BIRs today, I go back to the 60s as does Pat Chapman. The friendly BIR chefs I got to know then all said they used Garlic and Ginger powders, but only for certain dishes espeicially Madras and Vindaloo (which is where I mainly use them). A lot of restaurants then were run by Punjabis etc not Bangladeshis.
I also find that Garlic powder is good for accentuating the richness of flavour and smell for certain dishes that use Methi leaves and/or seeds (sorry Fenugreek).
Ashes; on your previous point I have made a new suggestion in a post on 'Lets Talk Curry'
Cheers
CP
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The only place I ever heard of garlic powder, used in a curry, was from Pat Chapman's books.
Hello Pete...Sorry! I mean Haldi ;)
I have also come across the use of garlic powder in "100 Best Balti Curries" by Diane Lowe and Mike Davidson. A restaurant called "Kyber Pass", in Birmingham, apparently uses 1 tbsp of it in their chicken tikka masala (CTM). I used this as a basis for my CTM here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1325.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1325.0)
And a damned tasty CTM it produced too! (with a few significant modifications of course!)
It apparently "gives the strong garlic flavour of fresh garlic without the onion-ness of fresh garlic", according to the chef at Kyber Pass.
I use garlic powder often, and often with fresh garlic, to give a balance of garlic flavour.
I agree with what CP says; I suspect garlic powder is often used in hotter BIR curries (e.g. Madras, Vindaloo, etc), together with ginger powder. I have no direct evidence for saying this; it's just my intutition...which may be wrong of course. :P
And also as CP suggests, I believe the question of using garlic, in its various forms, is important enough to warrant a debate in a separate thread (this thread is about the "UCB" after all :P)...anyone want to start a new thread? If so, I'd be more than happy to contribute to it.
Regards,
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I am in the process of doing just that Cory as requested by Darth and Ashes, but combining Garlic tips with Onion Tips as there is some similarities.there.
CP
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Hi Cory!
Im glad you said "I have no direct evidence for saying this; it's just my intutition...!"
This was my point earlier, that we tend to take what people say as truth.
btw How do you know Haldi is Pete? You can pm me if you want.
CP: sure go for it dood!
regards ashes
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...How do you know Haldi is Pete?
Hi Ashes,
I don't! Again, it's just my intuition! And, again, I'm probably wrong! ;)
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Ok I will start it off tomorrow or later tonight (onion & Garlic that is). You are right Ashes, we have no absolute Guru to go by, the only true BIR I think we have is my mate Mark. However you lot do a bloody good job (excuse the French) :o ;D
CP
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Maybe it was a long time ago, but i remember when i first discovered curry, i thought it was the worlds best food (isnt it? :)), and i tried to create it at home. not really knowing anything at all, i presumed it would be chicken stock with spices.. so i got going, baked me a chicken and cover it in curry powder. Then was all surprised when it turned out the way you might imagine. ::)
More attempts were with Majur Jaffreys first curry book, the more i cooked the more i liked.. but there was an feeling of disappointment. This wasnt the same taste or texture as restaurant curries....... it took many years until i came close and then some to try my first Cr0 BIR curry. I believed it would always remain a secret!
And as far as im concerned, im happy with where i am, the grail isnt so much a step up, although, its always nice to reach perfection :)
There are lots of people who have helped me in understanding the nature of curry, but those posts ive been most interested in are those written by the old timers who walked the streets and asked the questions and begged the recipes from the curry houses. A big thank you to all those people!! There is enough information here on this site to write the most comprehensive book on the BIR curry ever.
Im surprised someone hasnt offered to publish these recipes.
Anyway the effort that all you curry fans put in is much appreciated !
Keep up the good work! And let the effort we put in result in our ultimate curry goal!
Ashes :D
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That was great Ashes, well said and from the heart. I have de glazed many WCs and destroyed complete sewerage systems in my quest. My Mum always said the the spicy curries will be the death of me; oh what a way to go Mum, especially with a pint in one hand after just finishing a great round of Golf. Oh ,sorry there I go again.
Anyways
I proposed a book(let) idea to go with the video but the post got deleted in one of the hot threads. It is worth a look at, but in your common sense terms I would ask who gets the profits etc., and who do we appoint as the project manager with responsibility (to the Forum Members), and so on. I know we are digressing but lets see what reactions we get as this thread will not be effective for long as I will post and entirely new Topic on the UCB (uncontrolled bomb ::) ) at some point in the very near future as promised
Happy Days
CP
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Well i would have some reservations about trying to get a book together. I think it would be easier to work backwards and ask a publisher what he/she thinks. Usually it takes years to get your work published, i was speaking with a Swedish author today (a published author) of fantasy books. I got a free signed copy a few months ago, but as i got 4 other books on the go i haven't got round to reading more than a third, felt i owed him an explanation as i promised to give him a review, anyway he said don't worry, the whole works wont be finished until 2012 :D. The point being is, if you are unknown, the book market is hard to break into.. once you got a foot in, its easier to get other stuff published.
Just a thought.
Ashes
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The only place I ever heard of garlic powder, used in a curry, was from Pat Chapman's books.
Hello Pete...Sorry! I mean Haldi ;)
Cory, I think you are spot on. Haldi = Pete
while we're in guess who mode I think you, Cory Ander = Fat Les
after all, who else is a fantastic photographer with such an appalling taste in tablecloths ;)
see the evidence -> http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1200.0
;D
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:o
Fat Les??? What's that? A new type of healthier curry? :P
And waddya mean appalling taste in tablecloths!!!! :o Mrs Ander will be well chuffed with you.....not!! ;)
Of course, these fine tablecloths can be found in any $2 shop, or in a car boot sale near you, Inspector Jeera!
And it's a fair cop guv!....that IS my tablecloth in that thread...there's no denying it! ;)
Hmmm......now I wonder who Jeera might be..... :-\
Anyway, I digress.....back to "UCB".....
LOL ;D
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Well it just goes to show that folks DO read all the threads ;D Sad though.... tablecloths... ???
CP
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CP, I think you've missed the point. There once was a member called Fat Les who posted loads of pictures of his creations - I think he used the same shop as Cory for his tablecloths ;)
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I like the idea of a book.
I am never sure about onions and garlic as the traditional curries vary in their use so much. So any tips Chilli would be welcome here.
Tar lar (scouse for tanks)
currygit
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Hi CG, I am a bit bizzy DIYing & cooking at the moment but I will try to get the Onions & Garlic post out soon, I may add tomatoes tips in there as well.
CP
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I have spoken with Mark this morning and I raised various points.
The chef's spoons he uses equate to 25ml which very roughly equates to 25gms give or take + or - 5gm, if I use Garam Masala as an average volume per weight gauge. I say use 40gm of spice which roughly equates to a heaped chef's spoon. He went and got his spoons and ladles and measured them for me.
Now when you make up a dish you add one portion of base which is just slightly less than a standard mug or roughly equivalent to 250ml.
With regard to the chilli; it is the very mild chilli that is used by Birs for making up bases and masalas. If it is not marked as mild you will have to ask your grocer or supplier for it.
The Cayenne is optional.
The tomato base is made from tomato concentrate puree. When it has been fried with the Garlic for a little while it should be cut down with a little water to make a thick gloopy sauce like the consistency of passata. If you get it too watery or too thick it will not fuse and you wont get the Bir taste.
When you put either of the bases in the pan to make up a dish you should rub them against the bottom of the very hot pan with your chef's spoon to fuse the flavours, but you must not let them burn. This is down to technique and experience.
I have various commitments that will not allow me to do much with this until New Year. Mark is coming over to spend a day with us and train us, and we shall video the whole proceedings. So hang tight guys. However he still insists the recipe you have here is sound and will work.
Happy Cooking
CP
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I think, but not sure, that the mild chillis used are Kashmiri, which are dark red and very difficult to get over here.
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When it has been fried with the Garlic for a little while it should be cut down with a little water to make a thick gloopy sauce like the consistency of passata.
Do you add water and continue cooking CP or is the water added after you have finished cooking the tomato base?
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During cooking, but after the tomato paste has fused with the oil.
CP
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Hi CP,
Your discoveries are very exiting, however, due to my small brain size, I'm getting very confused. When you finalise the recipes, would it be possible to work out the quantities of things such as onions, garlic, ginger, in weight, rather saying how many, or how high they should come up the side of pan. This would help enormously, especially when scaling down quantities.
A8
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Hi MA8 Yes I will be doing that, as it is somewhat confusuing if you want to make smaller batches. Scaling it down in equal ratios doesn't work so well so I will have to experiment, which is why I need some time to do it in the New Year when I will be less busy.
CP
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CP,
Can you tell me, when making the individual dishes, what happends to the spices - are they fried before the base goes in, then the heat turned up for the fusing, (I'm assuming that high heat is involved) or do they just cook during the fusing.
Sorry to bother you again , but I'm itching to have a go...
A8
PS is flash-frying different to fusing?
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No probs. This is my approach. I marinate the precooked meat in a little tomato puree base. Fry this on a high heat add the base and whatever spices you want. Continue to fry stirring all the time. I have mentioned this many times but a Bir secret is in HOW you stir and fry. It is not good just moving the mix around as you will not 'fuse' it even if you are using super heat. The technique is very simple. Use a very hot pan, plenty of oil, and a metal chefs spoon, you can use a round cup ladle but you need to be good. When you add anything, eg. the original meat & tomato or the base, spices etc., you press/rub the mix against the base of the pan to fuse it as though spreading butter (don't do this to the meat though!) and then scrape it off almost straight away before it starts to burn. You just keep doing this for just a few minutes and then you will see the colour change and you will get that so called Bir smell. It takes some practice to get it right, so be prepared for accidents. I would also suggest you do not use a non-stick pan as you are likely to blow of the coating; I suggest a bog standard cheap cast iron frying pan as used by a lot of Birs (8" - 10"). You can get them from a lot of Asian grocers & wholesalers. Treat the pan like a WOK don't wash it in any soapy water, just use plain hot water and a scrubbing brush. This way you will infuse the flavours and season the pan.
No here comes the issue of water or not. Birs use water for dilution, I prefer to sue and emulsion like milk of yoghurt as it doesn't change the spice flavour. However if you are trying to do Bir stuff then use water by all means but the secret is to add very little at a time and let the mix reach temperature between each addition. If you add too much at one time you will drop the heat too low and you will break up the spices and lose the flavour very quickly.
Hope this helps, good luck.
CP
PS this base stinks (nice stink though) so make sure you freeze it in good quality containers, e.g. the lock type, as it will expand when freezing and creep out like Quatermass's experiment :o ::)
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Hi Chilli,
I had some base in the freezer, so I had a go at 'fusing' as you suggest. I don't think I was very successfully however, but I think that was down to the fact that (I assume ) I may have burnt the spices.
I had the oil at smoking point, then tipped in a few onions, then some puree and the spices. I fried this lot for about a minute on full bore, before introducing the sauce, a bit at a time. I didn't notice any nice smells as I pressed the sauce against the bottom of the pan, but I figured this was because I'd already ruined it by overdoing the spices - maybe I should have started on a lower heat, then turned it up for fusing.
I'm still keen to have another go. I guessed that the fusing is a way of superheating the sauce, the spoon keeping it in contact with the very hot surface and the oil in the sauce (evenly distributed, which is why I blitzed it before use) frying the sauce locally.
I look forward to seeing the your video, but will still have another go in the meantime. I've a feeling that this is one of those things that will take a fair bit of skill and practice. The experts, who do this all the time will make it look effortless, like those blokes that split slates, or put the gold lining on cups and plates.
It still turned out OK though, once I teamed it up with some decent rice and a bottle of Cobra.
A8
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Ok I think I have spotted the problems here. Raw ground spices do not need to be flash fried and you should not do this really unless you really are experienced; they will burn very rapidly. Frying onions and adding spices is the traditional way of cooking not really suited as a Bir method. You will find many approaches here in this Forum and there is nothing wrong with them just different
1. I dont use onions at the start if I am using a base, as they are already in there. However I may add onions in one form or another at a later stage depending upon the recipe requirements.
so
2. Fry the meat briefly (with tomato base marinasde) first
3. Then add the base in one go and heat quickly to bubbling and oil separation
4. Add spices and reduce heat to medium.
5. Now stir and fuse the mix, but remember to press scrape and stir all the time
Dont worry you will get there, we all made and make mistakes; in a while you will master the techniques and then you will be doing your own experiments. Make sure you read the advice on spices and cooking in the hints and tips as there are a lot of good contributions there.
CP
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Thanks CP, I'll recover from the last attempt and will have another go.
A8
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Did anyone see Heston Whatsisface on the box the other night. He was trying to cook the perfact Ragu (spag bol)
I noticed similarities between the cooking sequence he used, and the ones CP suggests in this post. He started with a veggie base and, most significantly, the tomatoes were cooked separately in oil before being added. He went into all the chemical reasons why he did this. He even added a knob of butter (ghee) right at the end
A8