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Curry Chat => Talk About Anything Other Than Curry => Topic started by: Peripatetic Phil on June 21, 2016, 02:19 PM

Title: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 21, 2016, 02:19 PM
Too quiet by half on here at the moment, so let's see if we can provoke some interest and perhaps even some debate ...
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Ghoulie on June 21, 2016, 05:22 PM
OUT
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 21, 2016, 06:28 PM
Until yesterday evening, all to whom I had spoken who were in favour of Britain leaving the EU appeared motivated by one or more of just three concerns :  better for themselves, better for the country, better for business.  None of these arguments carried any weight with me, because my reason for wishing to remain within the EU has nothing to do with any of those factors -- I simply believe in a united Europe, and (one day) a united world.  And then last night I spoke to Jean B. (full name suppressed), a very intelligent lady in her mid 80s.  Her argument was totally different.  "Do you remember all those hundreds of thousand of graves in the Somme, and all the other battlefields of WW I ?", she asked.  "Of course I do, Jean", I answered, "Why ?".  "Well, they died for our freedom, Phil", she said.

I had no answer, and I still have none.  I do not believe for one minute that by remaining in the EU we would be surrendering the sort of freedom for which these brave men (and women) fought and died, nor do I believe that those who served alongside the brave, gallant, Poles and Czechslovaks who served in the Royal Air Force in WW II would want to deny them, or their descendants, or their equally brave and gallant countrymen who formed Solidarnosc, or who braved (and were crushed to death by) the tanks in V
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 21, 2016, 06:49 PM
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvKiRYlDslQ[/youtube]

IN
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 21, 2016, 06:57 PM
Very moving, Garp; thank you for posting that.  And don't forget to vote in the poll (above).
** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Stephen Lindsay on June 21, 2016, 11:39 PM
I think we should have been given 3 options:

In

Out, or

Shake it all about

Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Les on June 22, 2016, 02:03 PM
Either way, what difference does it make to us peasants. It is said that this country would save
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 22, 2016, 02:44 PM
Well, one major difference, equally applicable to peasants and plutocrats alike, is that at the moment each of us is free to live and to seek work in any country of the European Union, so if the grass seems greener in Germany, or France, or the Netherlands, or any of the other 27 countries that comprise the EU in addition to ourselves, each of us is free to move there and seek gainful employment.  Were we to leave the EU, that freedom would instantly disappear.  And for a foretaste of what life would be like after that, for those who value the freedom to live and work where they choose, just try applying for a visa to live and work in the USA. 

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 23, 2016, 03:42 PM
So, on the basis of this entirely unrepresentative sample, I predict that we will remain in the EU by a relatively narrow margin, at best 62.5% of those voting.  As to turnout, I think probably higher than in a general election, so maybe a 70% turnout.  We shall see !

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Dajoca on June 23, 2016, 07:20 PM
Out.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 24, 2016, 05:31 AM
As to turnout, I think probably higher than in a general election, so maybe a 70% turnout.
Turnout even higher than I predicted :  "72.09% turnout ".  Mortified by the likely result, 'though:  "the lamps are going out all over England -- we shall not see them lighted up again in our lifetime".

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Sverige on June 24, 2016, 07:40 AM
I hope everyone who voted "leave" will accept their full share of responsibility for the consequences.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Ghoulie on June 24, 2016, 09:44 AM
Brilliant result.  All pessimists who clearly do not believe in Britain / UK should seriously now consider relocating to their beloved EU.

I was so confident in the outcome, I placed a ?1k bet at 11:4 and won ?1750.

I thought the margin would have been higher - but then there were very strong Remain motivated mobilisation forces out there such as in Scotland. Fortunately the drive and real passion was with Leave.

Now watch all the other EU countries who are really feeling the painful effects of the EU more than we ever did clamour for their own referendums.  The sooner the evil EU collapses the better.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Les on June 24, 2016, 09:54 AM
We survived before the EU, and we will survive now, that's who we are. But will we get our
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: George on June 24, 2016, 02:13 PM
I hope everyone who voted "leave" will accept their full share of responsibility for the consequences.

Being a sore loser must be one of the worst personality traits.  If you don't like it why not go back to Sweden or wherever you came from?
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 24, 2016, 06:37 PM
/quote]

Being a sore loser must be one of the worst personality traits.  If you don't like it why not go back to Sweden or wherever you came from?

And that is typical of your average 'leave' supporter - arrogant, ignorant, uninformed, xenophobic and downright fucking idiotic.

Bring on the next Scottish independence referendum where we can leave the Brexiters to their right-wing English nationalism :)
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 24, 2016, 07:09 PM
Being a sore loser must be one of the worst personality traits.
Sorry, George, on this occasion I must respectfully disagree with you.  "Being a bad loser" is inappropriate behaviour if one has lost a competition.  But this was not a competition, it was a referendum, the result of which will affect not only Britain but the whole of Europe and a great deal of the whole world.  And if one cares about the future of Britain, and the future of Europe, and the likely impact on much of the world, then I feel that one is entitled to express one's sadness, dismay and despair at finding that Little England has raised two fingers to Europe and told it where to go.  Once upon a time Britain was a major power, and could afford to raise two fingers to other nations, but those days are long since past -- we /need/ to be a part of Europe, just as much as Europe needs us to be a part of it.  At the moment there are five major power bases world-wide :  America, Russia, China, Fundamentalist Islam and Europe.  As a Briton, I have no wish to be dominated by any of the first four (think Guant
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Onions on June 24, 2016, 07:47 PM
I hope everyone who voted "leave" will accept their full share of responsibility for the consequences.

Being a sore loser must be one of the worst personality traits.  If you don't like it why not go back to Sweden or wherever you came from?

Thus speaks his master's voice.*



*Viz, the Daily Mail  8)
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Onions on June 24, 2016, 07:49 PM
/quote]

Being a sore loser must be one of the worst personality traits.  If you don't like it why not go back to Sweden or wherever you came from?

And that is typical of your average 'leave' supporter - arrogant, ignorant, uninformed, xenophobic and downright fucking idiotic.

Bring on the next Scottish independence referendum where we can leave the Brexiters to their right-wing English nationalism :)

Like Bob Crow? Tony Benn? Dennis Skinner?
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 24, 2016, 07:56 PM
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Onions :)
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Onions on June 24, 2016, 08:10 PM
Is in England everyone who wants to leave the EU, a right-wing English nationalist?
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 24, 2016, 08:21 PM
I would assume not.

But I would also assume that the majority of those who voted leave are easily duped by those who have such political tendancies; their simple minds easily turned by references to immigrants taking their jobs and houses and they can't get an appointment with their doctor to get signed off work on invalidity.....
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 24, 2016, 08:31 PM
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXpFzXXEnA[/youtube]
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Sverige on June 24, 2016, 09:33 PM
My interest is that of a concerned spectator, since I don't live in the U.K. anyway. I do wonder how many of those who voted leave knew what they were voting for. I'm sure the media barons and self interested politicians who made the case for leave are enjoying their gains.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 25, 2016, 10:27 PM
The petition to require a second referendum in the event of a narrow margin and a low turnout has now reached almost 3500000 (three and a half million) votes within three days of being launched :  https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215, even after the fraudulent 77000 votes were removed.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 25, 2016, 10:51 PM
As much as I'd welcome a second referendum (particularly where 16 and 17 year olds could vote, as they should have been allowed to), I don't see how you can say it was narrow or that the turnout was small.

You'll just have to live with it bud, or move up here and vote for independence :)
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 26, 2016, 09:38 AM
I agree that the turnout was not small, but it was smaller than the minimum turnout specified in the petition.  I most certainly do not agree that the decision was not by a narrow margin; a narrower margin is hard to imagine.  I believe that any referendum to change the /status quo/ should have required at least a 60:40 margin, and ideally a 70:30 margin, before a change was mandated.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Dajoca on June 27, 2016, 12:43 AM
I do wonder how many of those who voted leave knew what they were voting for.

Most of us mate.
We didn't vote with our eyes closed, or our brains switched off as the remainians would have you believe and no-one I have spoken to since, has regretted the way they voted.
The stars have not fallen from the sky, nor have we died painful deaths in poverty, as the naysayers predicted.
The remainians aren't happy, but that's democracy for you.

It does concern me that idiots like Garp can think anyone who voted leave is a simpleton, who lacks the ability to reason.
It is patronising nonsense like that from the remain camp that helped sway many undecided voters away from the shackles of the EU.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: ziggycat on June 27, 2016, 05:48 AM
I agree that the turnout was not small, but it was smaller than the minimum turnout specified in the petition.  I most certainly do not agree that the decision was not by a narrow margin; a narrower margin is hard to imagine.  I believe that any referendum to change the /status quo/ should have required at least a 60:40 margin, and ideally a 70:30 margin, before a change was mandated.

** Phil.

Bloody remain voters and that petition.. a measly 22 signatures prior to the result then after the announcement of defeat its suddenly gains momentum.  The margin isn't big enough, the turnout wasn't sufficient...blah blah blah.

Unfortunately trying to change the rules of the ballot retrospectively is never going to have any weight to it.

Move on, it's done

.

Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 27, 2016, 09:23 AM
The stars have not fallen from the sky, nor have we died painful deaths in poverty, as the naysayers predicted.
No, the stars are still in the heavens (thank the Lord) and most who were alive pre-referendum are still with us (ditto).  But just the /news/ of the referendum outcome was sufficient to wipe over TWO TRILLION POUNDS off stock markets worldwide (https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/jun/24/global-markets-ftse-pound-uk-leave-eu-brexit-live-updates) and put the pound at a 31-year low.  That is how bad things are, just on the news of the referendum outcome alone.  And if we /do/ leave the EU, then things will be far far worse.  The stars will still be in their celestial orbits, but Little England will have been set adrift in a sea of uncertainty [1], with only three very unwilling (and even smaller) shipmates to help pull on the oars.  Believe me, chaps -- those who are ecstatic today at the news of the referendum result will really learn the meaning of a Pyrrhic victory if ever our Parliamentary representatives are so stupid as to regard that referendum outcome as binding and irrevocable rather than as simply advisory.

** Phil.
--------
[1] "In a classic British understatement, the chancellor opined:
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: ziggycat on June 27, 2016, 02:31 PM
The markets were bound to be effected by the referendum outcome and it's not come as any surprise to voters on either side. This was anticipated and the BofE was prepared for it. To my knowledge nobody is predicting any market collapse or long term adversity.  So further scaremongering (aka. Project Fear) is solely based on individual speculation.

As the next Conservative PM will be 100% be a Brexit advocate anyone believing this won't be invoked is completely deluded.

To our EU overlords,
I don't want your interpretation of free movement, I don't want you setting my taxes,  I don't wan't you telling me we can't manage our own agriculture and fisheries industries.

I don't adhere to your envisaged future of a United States of Europe, governed by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in brussels deciding on the wattage of my vacuum cleaner.

Goodbye & Good Riddance to you Mr.EU.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on June 27, 2016, 06:37 PM
To our Westminster overlords,

I don't want your interpretation of democracy, I don't want you setting my taxes,  I don't wan't you telling me we can't manage our own agriculture and fisheries industries.

I don't adhere to your envisaged future of a United States of Englandshire, governed by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in the House of Lords deciding on the wattage of my vacuum cleaner.

Goodbye & Good Riddance to you Monsieurs et Madames Bigots.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 27, 2016, 06:44 PM
Whereas I, on the other hand, would sooner entrust the future of this country to the hereditary peers who traditionally made up the House of Lords along with the bishops than to any number of life peers who have been appointed as a covert means of thanking them for some past action or actions that were of benefit to the party nominating them.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 29, 2016, 08:27 AM
Over four million votes now in the petition calling for for a second referendum (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215), and Michael Heseltine says that the majority of the Lower House are not in favour of exit (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/fightback-against-brexit-on-cards-remain-eu-referendum-heseltine).

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Stephen Lindsay on June 29, 2016, 02:07 PM
A petition which had only a few signatures prior to the referendum which must surely be seen now as a sour grapes petition.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 29, 2016, 03:49 PM
You may interpret it that way if you wish, Stephen; I, on the other hand, interpret it as a genuine expression of concern that something so important as whether or not we remain a member of the EU can be decided by so small a majority (3.8% of 72.2% = 2.74% of the total population) and against the wishes of two of the four countries composing the United Kingdom (Scotland and Northern Ireland).  Neither England (6.4%) nor Wales (3.4%) were anywhere as unanimous in their vote to leave as Scotland (24%) and Northern Ireland (15.4%) were in their vote to remain.  Fortunately the majority of our elected representatives in Parliament, who will ultimately have to decide whether or not to trigger Article 50, are not in favour of the United Kingdom leaving the EU; let us just hope that they put the future of Britain and the future of Europe ahead of the wishes of just 37.5% of the population of the UK eligible to vote.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: littlechilie on June 29, 2016, 04:32 PM
Just dropped by, sad to see the decline of the forum. :( :'( wishing you all well with your (Takeaway) cooking.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 29, 2016, 05:41 PM
I am forced to agree that there has been a serious decline in curry-related contributions, but in defence of the current thread I do feel that the issue is of not inconsiderable importance to the non-expatriates amongst us ...

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Micky Tikka on June 29, 2016, 07:54 PM
Sorry to say Phil  a petition carries no weght at all according to the news the other day
Obviously these people voted  in
If the shoe was on the other foot and the out vote had lost would you be concerned of an out petition
Just a thought
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 29, 2016, 08:05 PM
Sorry to say Phil  a petition carries no weght at all according to the news the other day
Obviously these people voted  in
If the shoe was on the other foot and the out vote had lost would you be concerned of an out petition
Just a thought
"Would I be concerned ?".  Yes, in the same way as I am concerned about this one.  A 52:48 majority is no way to decide something as crucial as this to this country's future, or to the future of the whole of Europe.  I believe that in order to change the status quo, a minimum of 60:40 should be required and ideally 70:30.  If that is not implemented as a rule, then if we do leave a future government can call a further referendum, get a 52:48 vote in the opposite direction, and we are back in again.  Therein lies insanity.  We are /in/ Europe, let's stay that way until a /significant/ majority want out; and if we are out, then the same.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Micky Tikka on June 29, 2016, 08:20 PM
I can  see your point Phil
We are in limbo and who knows what's going to happen next
I haven't a clue
But I have asked a few people who I trust with high powered jobs and I don't know which way they voted but they said the same short term not good but long term could be better
Not to say that will make you feel better  :)
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Stephen Lindsay on June 29, 2016, 08:57 PM
But those weren't the rules Phil and you can't amend the rules just because you don't like how others played the game. The remain camp said this was a once in a life time thing. Of course this has totally backfired on Cameron who made the biggest political gamble of his career and scored an own goal of a magnitude that even the football team couldn't muster.

As a Scot my sense was, when we lost the 2014 referendum, that many people in the rest of the UK couldn't see what the fuss was about and displayed a sort of a "get over it" attitude. Well now the shoe is on the other foot and they are feeling the pain the same as we were.

This is the second referendum in two years that I have supported the losing side but to continue the football analogy we are a little nation that is used to getting beat and good at taking it on the chin. Consequently I will have to get over it yet again and live to fight another day and I will.

However its going to be an interesting few months because I think the promises made by leave will fall flat on their face and again the public will feel duped by politicians just as we did here in by Scotland by Brown and his Vow and by Cameron and his Family of Nations. I wish that instead of fighting amongst themselves and jostling for position that Labour pulled together and saw this as an opportunity to unite, but alas Lord of the Flies springs to mind. They could have been steadying themselves for the next general election which I think will happen sooner rather than later as the Tories won't be able to deliver what the leave voters thought they were getting and will be blamed by the remian voters as having mucked up big time, which they have.

Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon will be jumping at the chance to get an outcome that suits Scotland, it's worth watching her from the sidelines because she's a canny operator and won't make promises she can't deliver on. Note - she hasn't said there will be a second Scottish referendum, only that it's on the table because we voted unanimously to remain. Watch this space!
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 29, 2016, 09:25 PM
But those weren't the rules Phil and you can't amend the rules just because you don't like how others played the game.
I agree.  But the rules say "a referendum is not binding".  It is a means to gauge public feeling, and I (and four million others) believe that a 52:48 x 72.2% outcome says only "the nation is divided", nothing more.

** Phil.

Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Micky Tikka on June 29, 2016, 10:30 PM
It's all politics
there's good people on both sides
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Stephen Lindsay on June 29, 2016, 10:33 PM
PS it's good to hear the views of fellow forum members - curry and non-curry related.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 30, 2016, 08:47 PM
I hope everyone who voted "leave" will accept their full share of responsibility for the consequences.

Being a sore loser must be one of the worst personality traits.

The BBC's reaction :

Quote from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36659954
Now, it is another lot who feel they have lost their country and had the future snatched away.

To describe these people as "bad losers" is to miss the point.

Neither side regard this as a game of cricket, a bit of fun, where you can shake hands afterwards and go into the pavilion for tea.
What sort of country are we?

For both sides, it is about how we see ourselves and what sort of country we are.

For many on the Remain side, this sense of history going against them, is a new feeling, closer to a bereavement than a political reverse.

Their new-found insecurity and unexpected anger is hot and heartfelt.

It has been sharpened by the apparent increase in assaults on people assumed to be foreign or immigrants.

Many who voted Remain may suspect Prime Minister David Cameron was right when he warned of a narrower, less tolerant country.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: George on August 30, 2016, 10:01 PM
I stand by my original comment whether the word 'sore' or 'bad' is used.  The BBC's bias is well known and their opinion doesn't count for much in my thinking.

If you leave the Scottish votes out of the count, the % majority in favour of leaving goes up quite significantly. Well, if Scotland ever does make a big mistake (for them) in voting for independence, that's where we will be and even better off for no longer having to hand over so much money to Scotland.

I agree with Micky Tikka's friends who he reported as saying "short term not good but long term could be better".
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on August 30, 2016, 10:32 PM
Your opinion is worth less than nothing, George.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Stephen Lindsay on August 31, 2016, 01:24 PM
Westminster doesn't hand over money to Scotland George, we pay our taxes like everyone else and it goes into the pot, after all we are supposed to be a "family of nations".
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: George on August 31, 2016, 02:13 PM
Garp's posts at #15 and #47 indicate to me that this forum has still not pulled itself out of the terrible mess it's in. What a way to run a forum, allowing such members to post whatever they like without anything being done.
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: foureyes1941 on August 31, 2016, 02:57 PM
1
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Garp on August 31, 2016, 08:05 PM
Hilarious  :)
Title: Re: Referendum on Britain's membership of the EU
Post by: Ghoulie on September 14, 2016, 11:52 AM
The way / rate the EU appears to be unravelling, there may be nothing to Brexit from shortly?