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Curry Chat => Talk About Anything Other Than Curry => Topic started by: Peripatetic Phil on January 15, 2019, 11:35 PM

Title: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 15, 2019, 11:35 PM
So what do fellow CR0 members think about this historic event (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46885828) ?
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 15, 2019, 11:40 PM
I'm not a constituent but this matter will end up affecting us all somehow.  A resounding defeat. The question it raises Phil, is; What now?
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 15, 2019, 11:44 PM
I sincerely hope "a second referendum".  One with a mandatory majority required before the status quo can be changed (minimum 60:40, ideally 70:30).

** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: chewytikka on January 16, 2019, 12:42 AM
The question it raises Phil, is; What now?

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/649c5af3fe2cdb59827cbe31a9875ed4.png) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#649c5af3fe2cdb59827cbe31a9875ed4.png)

Would you like fries with that madam?  ;D

Can somebody turn Radio 4  OFF please.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Bob-A-Job on January 16, 2019, 01:20 AM
All of my family, from my Great Grandparents (god rest them) to my parents, siblings and extended have always been taught never to talk about Religious, Political or Fiscal matters at the dinner table (My father insisted on it and has confiscated mobile phones at the table, I just have to look at my family with one and they are soon put away somewhere out of arms reach!)... and this being a forum about food, the preparation and presentation of, I am uncomfortable.

I know my personal views and I withhold them.  However....

The process before the vote by all those involved, the MP's the media, the organisations and the EU I find greedy, untrustworthy, scandalous and possibly unlawful, that is for the courts to decide.
However, the application after the vote by those same organisations I find to be the same and abhorrent.

We know almost nothing more about what WILL happen after the vote than what was claimed before the vote because nobody is being honest and unfortunately, that is Politics, Business and similarly, strictly for clairvoyants*, psychics*, tarot readers*, astrologists*, etc*

I find the whinging about whether people voted or not and whether they will or not and which way they will, etc. on a second to be futile (see *).  However, the margin of Success over Defeat was not sufficient for me to have been decisive and I would like to see defined criteria before anything similar happens in the future, that adequately defines the thresholds for Success and Defeat and the middle ground that declares it void, at which it should be re-held - then abandoned if it fails again - not just BREXIT.

My one overriding feeling is that EVERYBODY is blaming everybody else and that Democracy has been severely eroded because...

They all gave in because the job was just too hard.  "They couldn't agree on the colour of shite" - film quote.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: chewytikka on January 16, 2019, 01:46 AM
Nope I can still here Radio 4

(I know my personal views and I withhold them.  However....)
Didnt do a very good job there then Bob

 ("They couldn't agree on the colour of shite" - film quote.)
Language Timothy
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 16, 2019, 01:50 AM
Well said.  However, even though they can't decide on a colour, it doesn't change the fact that you are all apparently in it up to nose level.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Donald Brasco on January 16, 2019, 11:01 AM
What next? Well nobody knows for sure, but I doubt something this important is really lurching along out of control, as it has been made to appear. Probably there's an underlying plan playing out, maybe one hatched right after the referendum went "the wrong way".(who really thought Cameron intended to offer a route out of the EU?)

2 years of getting nowhere. Present a deal which will not be acceptable to either remain or leave and thereby guarantee the thing can't happen.

So., what happens next, at least a delayed Brexit and probably a 2nd referendum once enough time has passed to justify the need for one. A second vote too soon will justifiably be shouted down by the winners from last time. Kick the can far enough down the road and you can legitimately say that it seems the public opinion has changed and thus a second referendum to get "the right result" becomes a defensible option.

Is this the game Teresa May was put into bat to play?  If so, she would have to publicly denounce a second referendum right up to the point where her hand was "forced" by some event.

Just a possible scenerio!
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 16, 2019, 11:15 AM
Or as has often been observed, "Just because I'm paranod doesn't mean I'm not being persecuted" ...

More seriously, one only has to listen to almost any debate in the lower House to realise that (with a few notable exceptions such as Michael Heseltine and Anthony Wedgewood-Benn), politicans are primarily motivated by a desire to ensure that their party remains in, or gets into, power — what is good or bad for the country, or for the world, is of far less importance.  Being generous, I would say 85% party, 12% Britain, 3% world.

** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 16, 2019, 11:45 AM
You could well be describing the Parliament down here Phil. Based on the same system and just as driven by personal ambition and party affiliation. Of course it's all in the national interest, until caught with a hand in the jar or pants off. Although, we do now have a couple of NSW State pollies on extended visits to secure habitation over getting a little bit too obviously greedy.

Donald Brasco, if there is an underlying plan in any of this, who would you say is calling the shots? An individual, several, the Party machine or, for the conspiracy theorists, possibly the Bilderberg group or the World Bank. This may appear to be a flippant question but in fact it isn't. If your theory is correct, the strings are being pulled from somewhere.  Either that or it really is just lurching along out of control, in which case nobody can tell where it goes from here.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Garp on January 16, 2019, 12:53 PM
I agree with Phil....
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Stephen Lindsay on January 16, 2019, 06:27 PM
I never have any qualms about discussing politics and religion so here is my tuppence worth.

Religion - is a man-made infrastructure which had its origins as a form of social control and this remains the case to some extent, at least to those who worship. In other respects, some of the values and Christian ideals are good rules to live by, but they can be achieved without religious formality. I am not religious but I like to think that I live a decent life, have integrity and treat people as I'd like to be treated by others.

Now onto Phil's question. Well I have to say that I think this recent period is the most significant, politically, in my own lifetime, and that includes living through some pretty momentous events, the 3 day week in the 1970s, the Thatcher years, a brutal exposition of monetarism, rolling back the public sector, and the glorification of the 'me' culture.

I think David Cameron made the most humungous political error in holding a referendum and as Phil rightly points out this was for purely selfish reasons, i.e. the wish to quell the anti-EU section of their party amidst concerns about the rise of UKIP (what happened to them eh?). So yes, nothing to do with the good of our countries and its people, all about furthering the cause of the Tories. In so doing, I believe he underestimated the Leave campaign. Those charlatans like Gove and Johnson who sold the lie on the bus and promised the people a new Eldorado, Where were they when they vote was announced? The couldn't get out of the way quick enough such was their realisation that they could no longer talk the talk and now had to walk the walk.

I also think that having a Remainer come in as Prime Minister to negotiate us out of the EU was doomed from the start. It's like picking one of the Turkeys to organise the Christmas menu.

Being a Scot, I also have a particular axe to grind in that our country voted to remain in droves. We are constantly told that this is meaningless because it is a UK vote. As a Scot, this feels like being told that we are not really a nation, not one that has it's own Parliament and that we are no more than another suburb. During the negotiations, our own Government has felt ignored as any efforts to be involved in the process have been dismissed. Yet when it suits, the Tories are happy to bribe the DUP (equivalent to Flat Earthers in my opinion) to the tune of 12 billion and create 'special' arrangements for Northern Ireland. If it special for NI then it should be special for Scotland. But it isn't of course because the Tories don't need us to function in the Commons. So, the Tories just present as self-serving.

Two years down the line we are a laughing stock in the eyes of Europe and I recommend that you Google what the newspapers around the continent have been saying today, it makes for fantastic reading. I think this is the most incompetent, divided, untrustworthy set of lying politicians that I've ever known.

We are now far better informed than we were two years ago. It seems to me that the only way we can get some sense back into this fiasco is to ensure that we are given the opportunity to look again at what leaving the EU really means. That suggests another referendum is required.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Garp on January 16, 2019, 06:39 PM
Well said, sir.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 16, 2019, 08:57 PM
Loud applause from the public gallery.
I have a fishing mate who is Muslim and family members born again. We don't discuss religion. I have a couple (married) best friends who are staunch trade unionists. We don't discuss politics. I have friends who are lesbian and gay. We don't discuss sexuality.  On these matters, respectively, I don't agree with any of them but it does me no harm to accept them for who they are.  I do take great delight in razzing my psuedo-vegan daughter. :D

What I find quite strange, even troubling, is the amount of energy, time and resource being poured into the whole Brexit issued.  I realise it can't be just wished away now that it is out of the bag, but it is certainly a dominant beast.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Naga on January 17, 2019, 08:47 AM
What Stephen said (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=15081.msg132513#msg132513). 100%.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 17, 2019, 10:30 AM
I have a fishing mate who is Muslim and family members born again. We don't discuss religion. I have a couple (married) best friends who are staunch trade unionists. We don't discuss politics. I have friends who are lesbian and gay. We don't discuss sexuality.  On these matters, respectively, I don't agree with any of them but it does me no harm to accept them for who they are. 

Now that I find interesting.  A couple of years ago, my wife and I made up two of a group of eight travelling by minibus across Tibet and into Nepal, and between us we represented seven different countries and several religions.  We discussed both race and religion very openly, and I think that everyone involved learned a great deal.  We all parted the best of friends and keep in touch to this day.

As to sexuality, while I will (and have) discuss(ed) this with women who swing both ways, I have never had such a discussion with a homosexual 0r bi-sexual man, nor would I set out to do so, but if one were to want to discuss his sexuality with me then I don't think I would have any problem with that.

Quote
What I find quite strange, even troubling, is the amount of energy, time and resource being poured into the whole Brexit issued.  I realise it can't be just wished away now that it is out of the bag, but it is certainly a dominant beast.

I find it neither strange nor troubling.  Perhaps if pre-Nazi Germany had spent more time discussing the potential advantages and disadvantages of being Nazified, the whole history of the 20th century might have been markedly different (for the better).

** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 17, 2019, 10:54 AM
Wasn't surviving a no confidence motion not so long ago supposed to mean another couldn't be raised for at least the next 12 months?  I'm positive that's what was reported yet here we have just had another.

Aha!  Party room and Parliament. 2 different motion forums.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 17, 2019, 11:57 AM
Wasn't surviving a no confidence motion not so long ago supposed to mean another couldn't be raised for at least the next 12 months?  I'm positive that's what was reported yet here we have just had another.
Don't know, would have to research that, but prima facie  an analogous motion on the same grounds should most certainly not be allowed, but a further motion on entirely different grounds should, IMHO.

** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Gav Iscon on January 17, 2019, 12:24 PM
Was the previous one not a leadership challenge against May and this one against the government? Not that i pay loads of attention to it  :-\
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Donald Brasco on January 17, 2019, 12:52 PM

Donald Brasco, if there is an underlying plan in any of this, who would you say is calling the shots? An individual, several, the Party machine or, for the conspiracy theorists, possibly the Bilderberg group or the World Bank. This may appear to be a flippant question but in fact it isn't. If your theory is correct, the strings are being pulled from somewhere.  Either that or it really is just lurching along out of control, in which case nobody can tell where it goes from here.

Unless you expect me to admit to being a member of the illuminati, which is something I hardly ever do in public, my answer to your question has to be "how could I possibly know?"
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 17, 2019, 02:22 PM

Donald Brasco, if there is an underlying plan in any of this, who would you say is calling the shots? An individual, several, the Party machine or, for the conspiracy theorists, possibly the Bilderberg group or the World Bank. This may appear to be a flippant question but in fact it isn't. If your theory is correct, the strings are being pulled from somewhere.  Either that or it really is just lurching along out of control, in which case nobody can tell where it goes from here.

Unless you expect me to admit to being a member of the illuminati, which is something I hardly ever do in public, my answer to your question has to be "how could I possibly know?"

Or as Francis Urquhart put it "You might think that, Mattie — I couldn't possibly comment".
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Secret Santa on January 17, 2019, 05:05 PM
Well I said at the start that it'd probably go to another referendum and I still think that's the case. Interestingly though, if that is the outcome, I was just reading that the demographic has changed in the intervening two years such that the vote would swing in favour of remain. It's because there are now more voting age youngsters, who are majority remain, and there are fewer old brexiteers because they've gone to meet their maker (who presumably resides in the very depths of hell).
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 17, 2019, 05:14 PM
[T]here are fewer old brexiteers because they've gone to meet their maker (who presumably resides in the very depths of hell).

Nonsense, Sir — he resides in Royal Tunbridge Wells, as would all true Britons if they could.  Europe ?  Humbug.  Full of Froggies and Krauts (Vietnam is full of froggies and kraits, and the latter are infinitely more dangerous that the Krauts ...).
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 17, 2019, 08:38 PM
I was interested to see David Cameron's footpath interview yesterday. He has no regrets on calling the referendum but has regrets over the difficulty it has created in the decided outcome being so far unachievable. That's a bit like having no regrets making the decision to have a wedding, but regretting having obtained a spouse as a result. As a politician he likes the political process but is none too thrilled with the societal implications, particularly after it possibly didn't go exactly to plan.

No wonder he bailed out immediately. 

DB, I suspected the illuminati but had no idea you were in on it.  8)  But seriously, I wasn't expecting you to actually know.  However, if this isn't Ms May on the seat of her pants, then the path is directed from somewhere. This is the stuff conspiracy theorists thrive on. I'm going to start work on my prepper bunker later this year when the weather cools. 8)
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Secret Santa on January 17, 2019, 11:21 PM
No wonder he bailed out immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6lOpuI7rQI
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: livo on January 18, 2019, 12:12 AM
I love it.  ;D
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Ghoulie on February 06, 2019, 03:36 PM
None of the current parties are worth a vote watching the pathetic performances in the commons & duplicitous ditherer May has to be one of the worst PMs ever
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on February 06, 2019, 03:59 PM
There is very little I could find there with which I would disagree. 
** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on February 07, 2019, 08:48 AM
And this article (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/06/donald-tusks-special-place-in-hell-looks-like-where-we-are-right-now) seems to sum up the whole thing perfectly.
** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Garp on February 16, 2019, 12:24 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/15/brexit-lies-curry-vote-leave-restaurant-industry?fbclid=IwAR25i0tRiKQ6YBJ72fzR5EkNsG30HM2gvcRrdbQ7rJGD2Y1IiAozHdfRHrs (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/15/brexit-lies-curry-vote-leave-restaurant-industry?fbclid=IwAR25i0tRiKQ6YBJ72fzR5EkNsG30HM2gvcRrdbQ7rJGD2Y1IiAozHdfRHrs)
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Donald Brasco on March 14, 2019, 07:05 AM
What next? Well nobody knows for sure, but I doubt something this important is really lurching along out of control, as it has been made to appear. Probably there's an underlying plan playing out, maybe one hatched right after the referendum went "the wrong way".(who really thought Cameron intended to offer a route out of the EU?)

2 years of getting nowhere. Present a deal which will not be acceptable to either remain or leave and thereby guarantee the thing can't happen.

So., what happens next, at least a delayed Brexit and probably a 2nd referendum once enough time has passed to justify the need for one. A second vote too soon will justifiably be shouted down by the winners from last time. Kick the can far enough down the road and you can legitimately say that it seems the public opinion has changed and thus a second referendum to get "the right result" becomes a defensible option.

So, was I wrong?  From where I am sitting, Mrs May has achieved exactly what she set out to do - navigate the country to a point where Brexit cannot be delivered and thus defeat what the senior Tories saw as the “wrong” referendum result.

Helpfully for her, Labour are already heading towards calling for a 2nd referendum, avoiding her needing to be the one who suggests it.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: mickyp on March 14, 2019, 10:33 AM
Personally i think the first referendum should have been declared unlawful as it was carried out in complete ignorance of what the outcome would be, even at this stage nobody has got a bloody clue about what will happen.

That said i know chaps that we will all keep a stiff upper lip, fix Bayoleaves put on our best tumerics and Curry on.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on March 14, 2019, 11:07 AM
From where I am sitting, Mrs May has achieved exactly what she set out to do - navigate the country to a point where Brexit cannot be delivered and thus defeat what the senior Tories saw as the “wrong” referendum result.

Then she is far far cleverer than I ever gave her credit for, and I can only admire her adroitness in manipulating the system.  Until now I have loathed the woman, as she appeared to be taking us ever closer to the brink, but if you are right in your beliefs then I can only say that my loathing was completely unjustified.

Quote
Helpfully for her, Labour are already heading towards calling for a 2nd referendum, avoiding her needing to be the one who suggests it.

Splendid news !

** Phil.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Ghoulie on March 14, 2019, 12:13 PM
There is a brilliant post on FB at the moment stating that knife crime has just gone up beyond belief in UK - 17.4 million people stabbed in the back !
That just about sums up how abysmally our MPs treat democracy and probably demonstrates, like Justice, Democracy is a figment of someones very fertile imagination.

A stitch up from day one.  Roll on election time.  A lot of MPs should be polishing their CVs - that is if they ever had one to fall back on.  Not a lot of call for a career politician in the real world.
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: mickyp on March 14, 2019, 12:31 PM
There is a brilliant post on FB at the moment stating that knife crime has just gone up beyond belief in UK - 17.4 million people stabbed in the back !
That just about sums up how abysmally our MPs treat democracy and probably demonstrates, like Justice, Democracy is a figment of someones very fertile imagination.

A stitch up from day one.  Roll on election time.  A lot of MPs should be polishing their CVs - that is if they ever had one to fall back on.  Not a lot of call for a career politician in the real world.

It was Teresa that cut the Police numbers back when she was Home Secretary so now she is having to suck up the Karma, as for her outrageous comment about Knife crime not being affected by lower police numbers. ::)........I rest my case
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on March 14, 2019, 12:46 PM
I just read about a most appalling case of knife crime in Knightsbridge — a commis waiter at Harrod's VIP restaurant laid the butter knife the wrong side of the fish knife  :o
Title: Re: "the largest defeat for a sitting government in history"
Post by: chewytikka on March 14, 2019, 12:54 PM
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5d80db71054681fe64eb9866647fe703.png) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#5d80db71054681fe64eb9866647fe703.png)

Cup of Tea  :-\