Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: digital donkey on April 16, 2019, 03:38 PM
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New member here but I've been making BIR and desi style curries for quite a few years, as well as being a bit of an amateur chef. It's a pleasure to join this site and I'm happy to share my experience and recipes - some of which I have acquired from a local 'upmarket' restaurant in my home town.
I just wanted to chat about base gravies, and ask what people's thoughts were:
I'm always a bit confused by the separation of spice like paprika and turmeric from the initial stewing process - I'm of the understanding that incorporating the spices early on will at best infuse the flavours better, at worst do nothing - particularly when using a pressure cooker method. There are one or two culinary herbs and spices that benefit from being incorporated before serving but in a process like this with robust spices like turmeric, paprika, cumin and coriander I feel that cooking them as long as possible will be better for melding the flavours.
On a similar note tomatoes are invariably used in most base gravies, but often seem to be added as a separate 'dump' at the end of the stewing process (usually with the spices). Any Italian will tell you that there is no harm in stewing tomatoes for as long as possible, so this (again) confuses me a bit.
I have tried a few bases online and through various tests I was unable to see any advantage to not just putting everything into the pan at once. This is not to undermine any restaurants who do it, or any users on here who do; but I would be interested to know what people think this is doing. It seems like a means of taking more time than you need to take. I could understand if people were caramelising the onions or roasting the spices to increase the 'umami' taste but this is rarely the case
I am not meaning to seem condescending or disrespectful to users here; I would just like some other people's take on this.
Many thanks
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Hi DD, welcome to you and may i say thats a cool first post, I think layers of taste are great in a base gravy with regard to tomatoes i cook em until they bubble like volcanoes and separate from the oil, as a learning curve i also remember adding more base to that couldron that wasnt heated, makes me cringe now but we all have to learn :), being here is a great way to do that.
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Welcome DD and thanks for raising a good point.
with regard to tomatoes i cook em until they bubble like volcanoes and separate from the oil
I also do my tomatoes like this (with turmeric and paprika) then add to the boiled onion/ginger/garlic mixture. Once it is blended I will add cumin, coriander, ground fenugreek and a little garam masala, and simmer for 15 minutes.
Whether it would make any difference just boiling it all up together, I don't know, but I doubt that any difference would be significant.
Fenugreek, for me, is the essence of BIR, which is why I include it in my base :)
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Pressure cooker base gravy is often all in and close the lid. I've tried "all in" V "multi-stage" gravies and many in between. They are different in some ways and the same in others. Find what suites your cooking style, how much time you want to spend cooking and go with it. There is no right or wrong, just different. The sameness is that you end up making curry.
Garp +1 for fenugreek being a requirement (but not necessarily in every dish).
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Thanks for the feedback. This seems like a very friendly and honest forum so I'm glad to have joined.
I'm an experimental character and my conclusion at this point (subject to change) is that there is an advantage to keeping a base gravy as simple as possible. I will share my current base gravy in a separate topic, but suffice to say I'm a big fan of using a very simple base gravy as a means of achieving the classic caramalised onion/oil foundation for every curry - the foundation that creates that distinctive BIR taste - and adding the additional layers of flavour at the cooking stage.
I don't personally think that giving a base gravy a lot of character is necessarily beneficial in terms of adaptability and the overall end result, but one thing I will say is that there is no right or wrong in such a diverse cooking style. BIR cooking is great fun, and this whole subtopic of base gravies reminds me of Texan chilli cook-offs, where there is a constant hunt for the 'magic' touch. It's great fun.
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Fenugreek, for me, is the essence of BIR, which is why I include it in my base :)
Garp +1 for fenugreek being a requirement (but not necessarily in every dish).
Can you both clarify whether you mean the leaf (kasoori methi) or the seed?
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my conclusion at this point (subject to change) is that there is an advantage to keeping a base gravy as simple as possible.
I agree. My onion, salt, oil base makes excellent curries when the curry making stage is adjusted to suit and is far better for producing curries that taste different from one another.
...a means of achieving the classic caramalised onion/oil foundation for every curry - the foundation that creates that distinctive BIR taste
Hmmm, I don't agree with that. Almost no BIR base has caramelised onions. BIR bases are almost universally boiled. And a long boil is required to bring out the natural sweetness of the onions. Also this is why the tomatoes are cooked separately from the boiled onion base because the acidity of the tomatoes, depending on quantity, kills or significantly reduces the reaction required for the sweetness.
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Sorry, just to clarify: I didn't mean the use of caramelized onions in the recipe; I meant that the high volume of oil and the intensive heat in the pan caramelizes the onions in the base gravy during the curry-making process, and creates that distinctive BIR taste. I'm not convinced that the acidity of the tomato would kill the sweetness of the onions at the initial stage. This doesn't really fit in with my understanding of cooking with tomatoes in traditional recipes in other sorts of cuisine. Happy to be taught a lesson on this though!
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Can you both clarify whether you mean the leaf (kasoori methi) or the seed?
Ground seeds in base.
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Ditto. Fenugreek seeds is what I was referring to as well.
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Fenugreek, for me, is the essence of BIR, which is why I include it in my base :)
hi Garp,
Do you add the fenugreek as leaves or ground seeds? Do you add them to the curry or the base gravy? And how much?
Thanks :)
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Please see previous answers ;)
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Please see previous answers ;)
do you just eyeball the amount of seeds to grind, or do you consistently do a teaspoon or....? (sorry, this is my nerdy side coming out :))
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I don't grind them, I buy ground fenugreek 'powder'.
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I don't grind them, I buy ground fenugreek 'powder'.
Thanks, Garp. You helped crystallise something for me. I was messing around with leftover spices and there was a "zing!" moment with something in there - it was the ground fenugreek.
I will play around with quantities :)
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@Garp and livo. Well that's interesting, I also recall that Phil rates fenugreek seed as an essential. Interesting because they do nothing for me. I wonder if this is just one more case of us looking for different things when it comes to the BIR flavour. For me they're sort of the Indian version of MSG in Chinese cooking ... lot's of recommendations but fail to impress (me personally).
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Thanks, Garp. You helped crystallise something for me. I was messing around with leftover spices and there was a "zing!" moment with something in there - it was the ground fenugreek.
I will play around with quantities :)
If it's any help mate, I use 2 level teaspoons in a batch of base which serves 6 (300ml per serving).
For me they're sort of the Indian version of MSG in Chinese cooking ... lot's of recommendations but fail to impress (me personally).
MSG doesn't do much for me SS, nor do whole fenugreek seeds, but powdered seeds remind of that aroma I get passing a BIR.
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MSG doesn't do much for me SS, nor do whole fenugreek seeds, but powdered seeds remind of that aroma I get passing a BIR.
Exactly right. If I cook a curry with ground fenugreek, SWMBO complains that "the house stinks like an Indian restaurant". If I omit the fenugreek, it's just "the house stinks of curry".
** Phil.
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A long time ago, pre BIR, I'd been cooking Indian without fenugreek and enjoying it. My wife wanted to cook a dish from a recipe that called for fenugreek. We had a glass jam jar full of seeds that had sat unused for ages so I took the required amount and ground them for her using a mortar and pestle. I still remember the senses being lit up by the dish. I don't remember what the dish was but I remember the fenugreek aroma and taste.
Also pre BIR, I had never heard of Kasoori Methi. The aroma of these two ingredients from the same plant mean Indian to me now. I love the stuff.
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I had also been missing something in my curries and despite cooking for several years, I just couldn't get it right.
It was a casual remark that I made at one of our local asian supermarkets that prompted me to try some fresh fenugreek and instantly I got the aroma that I was missing, that I usually get as I walk through certain neighbourhoods.
Whilst we 'eat with our eyes' we also 'taste with our nose' and for me, that is a generous supplement of fenugreek... I have even started adding a small amount to onion bharji's.
BAJ.
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If it's any help mate, I use 2 level teaspoons in a batch of base which serves 6 (300ml per serving).
;D
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Too many layers? More like too much analysis! I'm not even sure how I would detect more than one layer. The base sauce I;ve been making since soon after this forum started has never failed to disappoint and tastes delicious on its own or when added to recipes which are better, for my taste, than 95% of BIRs.. Maybe I just got lukcy, thanks to founder members. Sadly, very few of them remain here,
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The base sauce I've been making since soon after this forum started has never failed to disappoint ...
Probably time to try a new one then George !
** Phil.
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Why? If it ain't broke don't fix it! I don't want to be going round in circles, re-covering the same old ground, like this forum sometimes seems to be doing.
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The base sauce I've been making since soon after this forum started has never failed to disappoint ...
Probably time to try a new one then George !
** Phil.
+1
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I don't think George realises what he's actually written, obviously. :o
I think you wanted to say it never disappoints, George. What you've said is the exact opposite and that it always does.
Which base gravy is it anyway?
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Livo - thank you for pointing out my mistake. Of course, I should have said it never fails to deliver. Or, put another way, it always allows me to make very good curries.. That is the MarkJ base as I mentioned in another thread in this section of the forum.
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I dont bother with boiled bases anymore,never mind what base i tried i felt there was something missing,so i make my base to taste like a mild curry,i am getting great results by frying the onions very slowly for up too a hour with whole spices,then i cook out garlic,ginger and green chilli paste,i add tomatoes with mixed powder and salt,then i cook the base until it is almost as good as dry and starting to stick too the pan,i add some water and boil for just 10 minutes,and thats it,i could never get the depth of flavor with any base that included boiling the life out of onions spices and what not
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Sounds just like the classic Indian approach, MP, and absolutely nothing wrong with that to my mind. The good folk of the sub-continent have spent centuries refining their recipes and methodology, whilst BIR cuisine has existed for just a fraction of that time and (in general) emphasises economy and speed of production over taste and
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I dont bother with boiled bases anymore,never mind what base i tried i felt there was something missing,so i make my base to taste like a mild curry,i am getting great results by frying the onions very slowly for up too a hour with whole spices,then i cook out garlic,ginger and green chilli paste ...
Do you make your own green chilli paste or use a commercial one, MP ? If you make your own, can you provide a link to your recipe ? I have never tried using green chilli paste and would be interested in experimenting with some.
** Phil.