Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: bhamcurry on November 01, 2019, 11:41 PM
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I think I have cracked the BIR secret!
... it's 100% reliable recipes. Add to that "accidentally adding way too much Kris Dhillon base gravy and having to cook it down by nearly half" plus "dammit, not enough salt!" and I had a wonderful chicken Madras tonight. The overly enthusiastic application of KD's base gravy having to be cooked down definitely added a depth of flavour and richness. Tasting the gravy after I took it off the heat made me realise it needed about an extra half teaspoon of salt.
That's it. Nice Madras, delicious pilau rice, all done in around 25 minutes. Rock on :cool:
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Excellent news, BHC
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So was it the extended cooking time that gave the good result or was it the additional base.
I
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So was it the extended cooking time that gave the good result or was it the additional base.
I
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So was it the extended cooking time that gave the good result or was it the additional base.
I
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I think I have cracked the BIR secret!
... it's 100% reliable recipes.
Can you give us some examples, ideally those that you used on this occasion ?
Add to that "accidentally adding way too much Kris Dhillon base gravy and having to cook it down by nearly half" plus "dammit, not enough salt!" and I had a wonderful chicken Madras tonight. The overly enthusiastic application of KD's base gravy having to be cooked down definitely added a depth of flavour and richness.
Interesting, because of late I have tended to use less base rather than more, although when I started out I always used twice as much as KD recommends. I think I need to re-visit that idea.
Tasting the gravy after I took it off the heat made me realise it needed about an extra half teaspoon of salt.
I am a salt addict, and for me the hotter the curry the more salt required.
** Phil.
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JalfreziT: I think the reduction of the base, causing the caramelisation of the sugars in the onions and tomatoes is what lends the richness. I dropped the cooked (cold roasted) chicken in for less than 2 minutes just to reheat and that worked out great.
Phil: I have mainly been cooking the recipes from the PDF collated from recipes here. The pilau rice is Bruce Edwards', the dhansak I have been enjoying is Geezahs' "London style", the Madras I made last night was 976Bars version. When we were in Kent last month visiting family I tried a local curry shop (Biggin Hill Spice, if you're interested) and realised that the tarka dal I make from the recipe in the PDF is way better than theirs. They could do with looking up the recipes here!
For spice mixes I am still experimenting, but the fry spice mix from Curry Wizardry by Anthony Goolab is *air kiss* - so simple, but as soon as the scent hits the air I start getting hungry! (1tbsp green cardamom, 10 tej patta, 2 large cinnamon sticks, about 8 grams stick or 2 teaspoons ground). The other spice blends I am making are more or less a hybrid Kris Dhillon / advice from here, along with slight tweaks such as adding a little fennel seed or a whole star anise. It's the usual refinement - this needs a little more earthiness, so fennel or anise - this needs a little brightness, so cinnamon or tej.
As a wise man once said, the fun is in the journey not the destination. The advice from this forum is making my journey a lot of fun.
And don't forget to add a little more salt :Clown:
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Hi All,
Been looking on various websites and reading various books plus this forum for many months/years adding this, fresh/powdered that, in search of the BIR holy grail, making a really nice curry but always missing that something.
Well guys and girls on my quest I happened to come across Glebekitchen, have a look at their youtube video https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL_QHxpBll3H0PUASaN6AlQ
You cannot use a non stick pan and cannot double/triple up quantities etc . Using this techinque the most basic combinations taste amazing (less is more) and enhance the other ingredients (tomato, spinach etc).
In my experience the results of this technique are truly remarkable. No wonder it's been kept a secret.
Have fun and enjoy
rgds
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So was the video in any way relevant?
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I have no shill connection or interest in any way to the other site/video but understand your reservation.
After searching for more years than I would like to remember to get the BIR flavour the video gave me the clearest instructions and reinforces the discussion above e.g. the reduction and caramelisation of the base in the oil by adding hot and slowly, reducing until the
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As you were willing to respond to my comments, Porchy, I am happy to retract my suggestion that this was shill posting and apologise if I mis-interpreted your intentions. I have re-instated your original content to the best of my ability, although I think that you linked to one video whereas I have linked to the channel.
** Phil.
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The Glebe Kitchen website actually looks quite interesting: https://glebekitchen.com/
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Not been here for a while but looking in every now and then.
Have been using glebe kitchen website for 18 months the vindaloo and madras are are 10/10 the cooking technique is bang on and explains the cooking temps and when to add what
Once learned it will become easy and second nature
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reducing until the
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As you were willing to respond to my comments, Porchy, I am happy to retract my suggestion that this was shill posting and apologise if I mis-interpreted your intentions.
Given the very relevant subject matter in the linked YouTube video I can't help feel you were a bit too quick off the mark here. There is such a thing as over-moderation you know.
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I agree, which is why I have already apologised to Porchy for my initial assessment of his contribution, but I did not moderate his post without careful thought
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The Glebe Kitchen website actually looks quite interesting: https://glebekitchen.com/
Just had a looky, as for looking quite interesting, yes it does straight onto my bookmark list, nice one Mr Garp
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I agree, which is why I have already apologised to Porchy for my initial assessment of his contribution, but I did not moderate his post without careful thought
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As I say understand the initial reservation so no major worries. The only reason I posted here was because I got more insight from this site than others, didn't feel I had anything specific to contribute, just about every question answered and debated (and spend too much time on computer at work). I had seen the technique many times but not realised the importance of the sequence and reduction until I saw the video on the glebekitchen site - so obvious really when the penny eventually dropped. Jedi Curry Master as far as I am concerned the creator was clearly involved in the bland onion soup base to BIR curry miracle :like:
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Many thanks for the further comments, Porchy
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Hi all.
Mickyp mentioned he had found glebekitchen from a post here so I thought I'd come and visit. Noble ox and Garp - thank you for the kind words. Porchy - I am glad my video helped you. I run glebekitchen as a hobby just to get people to come back into the kitchen and cook from scratch so you made my day.
Do you remember where you saw me say "creator". As surmised I meant crater and autocorrect has seemingly made me look the fool. I've been looking but there are a lot of posts to sift through.
BTW - I make no claim to have cracked any "BIR secret". I honestly don't actually believe it exists. I've talked my way into a couple restaurant kitchens and I have been cooking a very long time. My way is not the right way. It's just what I have managed to come up with over the years and it seems to work for me.
Cheers,
Romain
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Yay, welcome to you and your creators Romain :smile:
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Thanks mickyp! And thank you for pointing me here.
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Welcome Romain - I'm sure you have a lot to offer this site :like:
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Welcome aboard, Romain
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Hi Romaine and pleased to see you here.
There have been numerous debates on this site re secret ingredients v technique.
For me its technique the reduction of base to caramelise the onions.
There is a fine line between burning and getting the sought after aroma pushing it further and when to stop which will come with practice.
Once again thanks for sharing your kitchen experiences
Cracked it at last
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Thank you for the welcoming words.
What I have seen feeds my belief that technique is what matters. The restaurants have the same ingredients available to anyone who visits an Indian grocer. It is a largely level playing field from what I can tell.
Bloom the spices in oil. That is the same whether it's restaurant or homestyle. Make sure they are cooked enough to lose the "raw" taste. Wet ingredients go in after.
There are usually two different bases. One generic and one for creamy dishes like butter chicken. I don't much care for butter chicken so I've never bothered trying to figure out the creamy base.
Tamarind paste is your friend. So is amchoor powder. Delicately sour.
Vindaloo tends to be paste and not spice based. I've seen this more than once. That one took me forever to get through my thick head.
The only thing that dictates the juiciness of chicken (or any protein that isn't taken to the stage of collagen breakdown) is the internal temperature. That's not specific to Indian. It's food science. There is no such thing as sealing in the juices. That is also food science. What you do get from browning protein (or onions) is the Maillard reaction. You can expand the error bars by brining.
Indian food is fundamentally about browning onions. This is also Maillard. The closer you can get to this in the "caramelization" stage the better your curries will taste. You need to balance evaporation against this goal of course.
That's about all I know. No secret ingredients or techniques to offer I am afraid...
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Somewhat confused as to the exact difference between caramelisation and the Maillard reaction, I did some web searching but most of the results appeared to be based on the Wikip
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That is the chemistry and certainly enlightening for those that want to go deep. For the less scientifically inclined what is important is that it happens and it is important to a lot of cooking.
Simpler view - https://theweek.com/articles/609542/maillard-reaction-most-important-cooking-technique-youve-never-heard
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The only thing that dictates the juiciness of chicken (or any protein that isn't taken to the stage of collagen breakdown) is the internal temperature. That's not specific to Indian. It's food science. There is no such thing as sealing in the juices. That is also food science.
You sir, are a breath of fresh air :like:
I sincerely hope you stick around.
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Hmmm the Malliard reaction, is that what has knocked the
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Welcome Romain
I subbed your blog in 2017 as I thought your Insta style photos were very good,
interesting and well staged.
This is when you were an active member on Les Jones (CA) fake BIR site.
and a non active member here on cR0, under a different avatar of course.
As you live in Canada, it would be nice to see what you can buy locally
from an (Indian Restaurant). I am also curious to know whether you have ever
actually ate British Indian Curries i.e. in the U.K. or is your research simply
from forums and Youtube.
cheers Chewytikka
Acrylamide and the Malliard reaction
Latest scare from the U.K.FSA
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JalfreziT - thank you.
mickyp - I think the problem there was the "over" reaction.
ChewyTikka - thank you for following me. I have had curry in the UK many times - some better than others and for many more years (decades) than I care to admit. I've eaten predominantly in London but also Bath, Birmingham and Glasgow that I can recall off the top of my head. I have also eaten quite a lot of Indian in India and am, in fact, half Bengali myself so have been eating curry since I was about three years old.
The restaurant curry here in Canada is about the same as in the UK. There are some (few) restaurants in Ottawa that maintain a higher standard than I have enjoyed in the UK and some that do not. Pretty much as you would expect.
It's also pretty similar in the US. I would say that while certain specific dishes don't come across the pond, most are pretty well represented here. Some notable exceptions - I have never seen a garlic chilli chicken or achari here.
Since I started cooking BIR in earnest I have largely been disappointed with what I have eaten in the UK. I think I can do better as I'm sure most people who have been at it a while here can.
I am here under a different avatar because I couldn't get the system to send me a password reset email so I created a new account. I would happily go back to my previous avatar (or stick with this one).
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Hi Romain!
I turned to cooking BIR at home because Birmingham, Alabama is a bit far from Edinburgh! When I was back in the UK last month for a family visit I tried the local curry house option. I was not impressed. The basic tarka dal recipe here is fantastic, theirs was bland. The lamb pasanda recipe here looks interesting, theirs was a sweet, cloying mess. Basically, as I said at the start of this thread, the recipes here are legit and reliable and always produce a good curry - which is more than can be said about too many curry houses in the UK.
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bhamcurry - that has been my experience as well. That's exactly why I don't think there's a secret. I think anyone with decent technique can take any of the recipes here and turn it into something they would be proud of.
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bhamcurry - that has been my experience as well. That's exactly why I don't think there's a secret. I think anyone with decent technique can take any of the recipes here and turn it into something they would be proud of.
If there was a "like" option here I'd "like" this comment :smiling eyes:
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Tried Romain
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bhamcurry - :smile2:
JalfreziT - glad you liked it! I do like Steve's recipes as well.
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JalfreziT - glad you liked it! I do like Steve's recipes as well.
I was also very interested when reading your Jalfrezi recipe. The part about charring the green peppers being key. I sometimes pre-scorch the onions and peppers, sometimes not. My Jalfrezi dishes are usually pretty good, but sometimes
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Could be. Or it could be hunger :smile2:
I find it gets you a smoky flavour. For me that's an important taste in a jalfrezi.
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We just finished the reheated Chicken Jalfrezi (Richard Holme/MrCk) recipe that I made this morning. I paid special attention to scorching the onion and pepper. Edges were black on onion and blistered on the pepper.
It was good but not the best we have had. For some reason the sauce was thinner than usual and the flavour not quite there. And there sits the problem. There are so many variables when cooking BIR. The fault is of course mine.
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I suspect you might have taken it a bit further than I go.
From the jalfrezi recipe - "The key to the smoky taste is to get some blistering of the green pepper skin when doing the initial stir fry. Onions and green pepper go in to hot oil and cook until the edges of the onion turn brown and you start to get a bit of roasted pepper action."
I don't go to the black edges on onions stage. And I only go for some blistering on the pepper skin. Of course, it could be something completely different as you suggest as well. Cooking is definitely an art.
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Joo, I think you
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It was good but not the best we have had. For some reason the sauce was thinner than usual and the flavour not quite there.
Perhaps you didn't have the heat high enough? Thinner sounds like perhaps you didn't get enough Maillard?
It's always something...
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The secret is in the mixed powder,i was lucky enough to get some from a Ta,i promised i would not say who i had it off or were from,i had a tblsp off it and i made 2 curries with it,my house smelled like a Ta and all the neighbors commented about that,i would say it tasted better than some of the places around here,i cant believe some people think it is because of the cooking of it,you can watch them from start to finish they are not michelin star chefs they are quite slapdash about it most the time,most of them aint got the expertise or time to wait for a mallard reaction,i think anyone on here could be a indian food chef with their mixed powder
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I don't think that it can reasonably be doubted that if one is going to use a mix[ed] powder (as opposed to using individual spices), then the proportions of the spices in that powder must be important, just as the proportions of the individual spices would be important if one were using just those. But timing and technique also come into the equation (as does experience). So for myself I do not believe that "the secret is in the mixed powder"
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Agree with Phil.
It
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Agree with Phil.
It
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But nonetheless (and I am not arguing with myself, or with those who have agreed with me), if Madpower's BIR was able to supply a better, more balanced, mix[ed]powder than he had been using until then, and especially if it used a higher proportion of ground fenugreek than his normal mix[ed] powder, then I for one would not doubt that he achieved better, more authentic and "BIR-smelling" results than he had previously.
But when MP says "you can watch them from start to finish they are not michelin star chefs they are quite slapdash about it most the time,most of them aint got the expertise or time to wait for a mallard reaction", I wonder whether what might look slapdash to you and I is, in fact, more an indication of their experience. When I cook at home, especially when I cook Chinese food, I don't measure anything, and someone watching might well say "looks slapdash to me", but I have made these dishes so often that "muscle memory" kicks in, I don't need to think about what I am doing, but I can be confident that the results will be good. For the better BIR chefs, I am sure this is how it works, but I do not deny for one second that with this county's present hostile immigration policies, it is getting ever harder to find good BIR chefs and standards are falling nationwide.
** Phil.
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Every video I have seen and the restaurant kitchens I have been in have all had major fire power under their pans. Heat + sugars + amino acids = Maillard reaction.
My burners are 20K BTU which I believe translates to around 6kw. I run it near flat out once I add my first ladle of base. I quickly googled the output of an industrial cooktop. 30K BTU so 9kw (assuming my math is correct). For sure they are getting it. Caramelization is not the same thing as Maillard.
Not suggesting spicing is not important mind you.
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I do not deny for one second that with this county's present hostile immigration policies, it is getting ever harder to find good BIR chefs and standards are falling nationwide.
It's a tricky one Phil.
When you're a member of the EU, the immigration policy pushes you towards recruiting from within the EU (and is supported as that with free movement of labour, no need for work permits, etc.).
If you're not in the EU, it means you (Britain) can decide it's own immigration policy, and take whoever you want, EU or non-EU.
But....if you're not in the EU, you (Britain) don't get such easy access to the large pool of cheap labour, on which many UK businesses have built themselves.
There are no easy answers.
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Back on Topic
Mix Powder, that old chestnut. :lol: Methi powder in a BIR Mix powder, just does not happen.
There are loads of secrets in BIR cooking not published anywhere, quite delusional for members to think otherwise.
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I'm curious. What is an example of a secret? Surely one or two have been uncovered? I'm sure there are tricks that everyone haven't figured out but I can cook better than curry I've been served in fairly well reviewed restaurants in London (not saying Dishoom here - but 4 stars on google). What do they have that I don't?
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/Pulls up a chair and sits on the edge of it.
I'm also ready and waiting to hear what unpublished secrets CT will share.
I've always (privately) thought it delusional to think that there is some "missing secret". Willing to be proved wrong though :)
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/Pulls up a chair and sits on the edge of it.
I'm also ready and waiting to hear what unpublished secrets CT will share.
I've always (privately) thought it delusional to think that there is some "missing secret". Willing to be proved wrong though :)
who would have thought my silly, tongue in cheek post would produce such a fascinating conversation!
Having spent a lot of time hanging around the restaurant business, the truth is there is *no* secret technique or spice mix. The results from restaurant cooking are due to professionals using their experience and training, along with muscle memory, to knock out these dishes we all love. If you spend 10 hours a day doing the same thing, you quickly develop a very economical technique... one could almost say "slapdash" technique.... for producing food to the same high standard every time.
That, plus a lot more salt than most people think. Seriously. Add more salt :Clown:
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/Pulls up a chair and sits on the edge of it.
I'm also ready and waiting to hear what unpublished secrets CT will share.
I've always (privately) thought it delusional to think that there is some "missing secret". Willing to be proved wrong though :)
who would have thought my silly, tongue in cheek post would produce such a fascinating conversation!
Having spent a lot of time hanging around the restaurant business, the truth is there is *no* secret technique or spice mix.
Oh my. :smile: The casual newcomer will be confused. Three have stepped up with their opinion that there is no secret to BIR. One has stated that
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:like:
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Bhamcurry. I got through university working in restaurants so I've seen some as well albeit a long time ago. Muscle memory is exactly right. Prep cooks measure. Line cooks do not.
And agreed. A lot more salt. Not just in curries. Just about every restaurant meal you eat.
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Bhamcurry. I got through university working in restaurants so I've seen some as well albeit a long time ago. Muscle memory is exactly right. Prep cooks measure. Line cooks do not.
And agreed. A lot more salt. Not just in curries. Just about every restaurant meal you eat.
it's a thing I noticed a while ago - when you watch a video about how to make a restaurant dish, they always seem to drastically mis-state the amount of salt. "Add a teaspoon of salt (adds what looks like a tablespoon)"....
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Here am I still waiting for some of "those secrets" to be unleashed,
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Here am I still waiting for some of "those secrets" to be unleashed,
honestly, there aren't any. It's down to reliable recipes, practice, and tweaking the recipe to your own taste.
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I know lol, it was my wierd sense of humour
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Here am I still waiting for some of "those secrets" to be unleashed
honestly, there aren't any. It's down to reliable recipes, practice, and tweaking the recipe to your own taste.
Well, there are no real secrets to Freemasonry, but that doesn't deter some people from devoting their lives to trying to find out what they are !
** Phil.
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We are doing the same with Bir but in doing so we dont have to roll our trouser leg up or shake the spoon in a special way
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I do find it helps to bare the left breast, 'though (stops the starched shirt from getting turmeric stains on it ...) !
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Turmeric, reminds me back in the eighties my neighbours came home with a TA, he tripped and spilled the lot over their new Settee, never got the stain out.
When i wear an apron when cooking i never seem to get it splashed, but 10 secs at the hob without it and........
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There are loads of secrets in BIR cooking not published anywhere, quite delusional for members to think otherwise.
Still waiting too, but not holding my breath :lol:
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Save that for when your frying any of this years crop of hot ???? s
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:owsome:
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I'm still waiting hopefully. I've been working hard to get a decent biryani in restaurant like times. Think I'm close but a few secrets would be welcome.
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There are loads of secrets in BIR cooking not published anywhere, quite delusional for members to think otherwise.
Still waiting too, but not holding my breath :lol:
Indeed. Owned, I think :D
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I'm still waiting hopefully. I've been working hard to get a decent biryani in restaurant like times. Think I'm close but a few secrets would be welcome.
Romaine. Have you tried KEWRA water a glug towards the end will launch to the next level no matter which recipe used
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Noble ox - I did try it and rose water once but found them both too floral for my tastes. I will try kewra water again though on your recommendation.
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I'm also ready and waiting to hear what unpublished secrets CT will share.
I don't believe CT knows any more than the rest of us. Either that, or he leaves key 'secrets' out of his recipes. At least the 'undercover curry' guy (Dave Loyden) told us how he claimed to know quite a lot and maybe Dave's story should be taken with a pinch of salt, too. Certain people here claim to be 'experts' without any insight into how they learned so much.
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I never thought I'd say this, but
You're absolutely right, George :cool:
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two things I noticed recently which really assisted the BIR cooking at home flavour. One was using that Basaar spice mix. It's got a strong aroma before cooking. But cooked it really takes over. So even though I've seen spice mix made up in takeaways, and nothing unusual was ever in the mixture, it clearly can play a very big part in a curry's result. I notice that the YouTube posts by Latif are very secretive about his spice mix. Really can't think what it might be though. Probably something silly like tandoori spice mix is added, which we already know about, don't we? The other thing that really affected my curry was the amount of oil used. I suppose I've always been a little conservative in the amount of oil I use in the cooking. But last time I used a lot. This didn't just make the curry greasier, it also had an effect on how it cooked. With more oil the curry gets a LOT hotter while you are cooking it. The resulting curry was really good on flavour and aroma. Easily one of the best I have ever cooked. But going right back to the start of this thread. I cooked an absolutely amazing curry using Kris Dhillons Curry Secret. It was a mushroom and pea curry. I used her gravy but it was very diluted. I had to evaporate it on a very high heat for about ten minutes after it should have been ready. The trouble is with this curry cooking obsession is that there just isn't enough time for all the amazing recipes that are out there!!
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Again, not suggesting I am an expert by any stretch of the imagination...
I got this comment on my blog today. It suggests to me that applying solid cooking technique to the base restaurant concept is at least a significant part of it. This is from someone completely unknown to me. Their email address and reference to Nazir's (not available in North America) make me think UK resident.
"Patak
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Looks sadly as if Nazir's curry pastes are no longer made ...
** Phil.
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https://www.spicesofindia.co.uk/acatalog/Nazirs-Curry.html
Might be worth watching in case they're restocked
Regards pap rika
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Three of the six previously stocked Nazir's pastes say "Discontinued by manufacturer. You may like Minara or Rajah brands... :
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This may be an alternative site, no indication they are not available. Admittedly the labeling is different to the previous site ?
https://www.hdsfoods.co.uk/?s=Nazirs+curry+paste&post_type=product :wink:
Regards pap rika
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Yes, found that site earlier today, Pap, when I was searching, but (a) there seemed no way to add any to my basket, and (b) they don't deliver to Cornwall ...
** Phil.
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Yes, found that site earlier today, Pap, when I was searching, but (a) there seemed no way to add any to my basket, and
(b) they don't deliver to Cornwall ...
** Phil.
:like: cheers phil
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I never thought I'd say this, but
You're absolutely right, George :cool:
I've read this thread and I burst out laughing! Priceless!