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Supplementary Recipes (Curry Powders, Curry Paste, Restaurant Spice Mixes) => Supplementary Recipes (Spice Mixes, Masalas, Pastes, Oils, Stocks, etc) => Topic started by: JonG on May 31, 2020, 06:53 PM

Title: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: JonG on May 31, 2020, 06:53 PM
I’m quite intrigued by this one. Never have I seen mix powder prepared this way, with ground spices heated in a dry pan while blending.

https://youtu.be/G_ONpP4mIZE

I wonder how widespread this technique might be in the BIR world?  I’ll have to try it with my regular mix powder blend next time I restock it, to see what difference it makes  :like:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on May 31, 2020, 07:08 PM
I'm planning to make it myself, Jon, using Syed's recipe, but I don't have a non-stick wok.  I have to investigate what suitable pans I might have tucked away somewhere.  OK, turns out that I do :  a set of three Aldi/Lidl "Ilag"-coated pans — 20, 24 & 28cm, seemingly unused.  Syed, if you are there, do you have any recollection as to the diameter of the pan in which you heated the spices when making your Special mix curry powder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_ONpP4mIZE) video ?  I'm sure it wasn't 20cm, but less sure whether it was 24 or 28 (I'm guessing 28, but really unsure).

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on May 31, 2020, 08:43 PM
This process has me intrigued and slightly worried at the same time.  In every set of instructions I've ever read about roasting spices and making curry powders the whole spices are dry roasted, but never the powders.  I'm going to make it today but I'll do a half size for first attempt, although watching it done showed that it was able to withstand some cooking. I was amazed to see it still smoking in the storage tin.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on May 31, 2020, 08:48 PM
Well, there's a fair amount of turmeric in it, Livo, and there is no way you can ever dry-roast whole turmeric, since it exists only as a root (rhizome), not as a seed.  Anyhow, the quantities involved aren't going to break even my rather limited bank, so I'm all for giving it a go. 

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on May 31, 2020, 09:52 PM
I'm very interested to hear what comes of this.

Whole spices are roasted to change the flavour profile. There is chemistry at work with new flavour compounds being created as volatile flavour compounds are released and recombine. I've never heard anyone doing this with powdered spices.


But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't right or better certainly:-).

Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on May 31, 2020, 10:29 PM
So what Herbie is saying pretty well confirms my feelings that a mixed powder made in this way will be for immediate, or at best, short term use.  I'll experiment with greatly reduced quantity.  I'd say you should use the small pan Phil.  It would be good to hear from Syed on this.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on May 31, 2020, 10:43 PM
I'm not saying this is in any way wrong but I'd like to know why he roasts the powders this way. I've seen many real BIR chefs showing their mix powders and not one has ever done this. Is it because they want to keep a secret or because they feel it's not necessary?
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on May 31, 2020, 10:58 PM
I think the answer could be in his dialogue in the Korma video SS.   He comments that the dish won't be bland due to the spice mix used in the base gravy then transferred to the dish (along those lines anyway).  I think it is all about intensifying the flavour from that powder.

I need to do this whole process for myself to see if it does transfer across.  The version I made, not using the roasted spices and his gravy , was bland.  It was by no means bad and was easily remedied but I'll be looking for a marked improvement using the complete method.

This may be the perfect illustration of needing to use a whole matched method and set rather than mixing it all up.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: JonG on June 01, 2020, 07:32 AM
One of the reasons it intrigues me so, is it seems to me that achieving the characteristic BIR flavour - “the taste”* is all about getting the spices fully cooked. Different chefs may use their various ways to achieve this (“singefry”**, Sam’s “magic paste”***, etc), so even if this dry “frying” is only a variation of this one chef (unlikely), then I’d still like to see what it does to my curries.

More likely it’s something which is out there in BIR-land in common use, but which has never been divulged or documented, and then you’d have to wonder why?

I think it’s really exciting actually, and I’ll be trying it with a level tsp measures batch of my mix powder (which I normally make up with tablespoon measures).  :like:




* (tm) this forum circa 2006
** credit chewytikka
*** credit H4ppychris, who is now active again in a BIR-related Facebook group
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: noble ox on June 01, 2020, 07:54 AM
I made this mix. about 2 weeks ago it still is fresh with same aromas so shelf life is ok.
Only 1/2 teaspoon used at final cooking was unexpected as most recipes use anything between 4 or 7 teaspoons less is more in this case.
The base gravy uses minimal spices ........but as a whole cooking method the recipe if followed works yes bir smells in the kitchen.
This is not quantum particle physics........try it then if dont like it that would make sense you owe it to your taste buds and long suffering readers of this forum.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 01, 2020, 08:36 AM
Different chefs may use their various ways to achieve this (“singefry”**, Sam’s “magic paste”***, etc),
* (tm) this forum circa 2006
** credit chewytikka
*** credit H4ppychris, who is now active again in a BIR-related Facebook group

In fact, Ranjit Rai coined the term "singe-fry" in his 1990 Curry, curry, curry, in which he wrote (p.~19)
Quote
SINGE-FRYING is coined in this book for the first time.  It is an apt description of the process that is vital for cooking Indian curries.  In India the process is called tadaaka or bagaar.  To singe-fry, the masala is sprinkled into hot ghee or oil, and it produces a hissing or spluttering sound for a few seconds.  The masalas used here are usually finely or coarsely poundes spices or herbs.  Also, it is to be noted that singe-frying is always done on high heat.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 01, 2020, 03:03 PM
try it then if dont like it that would make sense you owe it to your taste buds and long suffering readers of this forum.

I fully intend trying it. In fact, I already would have if it weren't for the fact that my fridge/freezer is jam packed to bursting with covid19 survival supplies.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 01, 2020, 03:08 PM
In fact, Ranjit Rai coined the term "singe-fry" in his 1990 Curry, curry, curry ...

I always thought singe-fry was a ridiculous term as bhargar or tadka were already in existence and described the action just as well.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 01, 2020, 03:38 PM
I always thought singe-fry was a ridiculous term as bhargar or tadka were already in existence and described the action just as well.

I think that Pandit Rai was aiming at hoi polloi, Santa (you know, the chap on the top deck of the No. 53 Clapham Common omnibus).  He would know what "singe" was, and "fry" of course, but "tadka" might put rather too great a strain on "'ees leetle grey cells" and if you suggested he should "bhagar" something you'd probably end up in casualty ...
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 01, 2020, 09:26 PM
I made this mix. about 2 weeks ago it still is fresh with same aromas so shelf life is ok.
It's good to know the fried powders are fine after 2 weeks. Further time will tell if the potency drops in comparison to a non-heated version.  It may be an idea to make a batch raw and only roast smaller amounts as required.

I've recently made 3 different spice mixes by individually roasting whole spices, cooling and grinding. The Sri Lankan Jaffna and Chicken Masala and a freshly ground Garam Masala. There is no doubt that freshly roasted and ground Masala is more potent than older stale powders.

This fried / roasted powder is a very interesting idea and something that is obviously new to nearly everybody. You've only to read the comments here and on the video to see that it is a "new" concept.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: noble ox on June 01, 2020, 09:44 PM
Just to be pedantic the spices are heated in a non stick pan to smoking point and NOT fried
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 01, 2020, 10:42 PM
Sense 2 of "fry, n." in the OED would seem to sanction the use of "fry" in this context :

Quote
to burn or scorch (anything) with effects analogous to those of frying;

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 02, 2020, 04:18 AM
Just to inform, the question about longevity / shelf life has been answered by Syed in the Video's comments.  There is no problem with a reduced shelf life for these "heat treated" spice powders.

The next obvious question for me; Can this heat treatment technique be applied to any variation of Mixed Powder?  I'm about to run out of my own blend (5:4:3:2:2:1:1) so I can see some experimentation happening.

The follow up question: Is there any need to have a "Madras Curry Powder" as one of the larger volume ingredients, or at all for that matter, in the Mixed Powder?  Syed's doesn't but in my analysis of 8 popular powders a few years back they all did.  I guess not surprisingly, this is one of the first questions I had as a novice to mixed powders.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 02, 2020, 08:06 AM
It is an addition that I have never understood, Livo, especially when it is to a generic rather than to a specific brand.  Why add a as a mixture ("Madras curry powder") more of the same spices that one is planning to add individually, especially when the proportions in the commercial mixture are an unknown ?  The only possible benefit could be if the Madras curry powder contains trace quantities of spices that one is not planning to add individually, but in such small quantities that it would be virtually impossible to measure them using domestic equipment. 

And then, of course, the vast majority of recipes go on to specify that the "mix powder" is only one of several spices to be added.  So the typical recipe calls for (e.g.,) turmeric, plus turmeric as a part of the mix powder, plus turmeric as a part of the Madras curry powder[1] that forms a part of the mix powder.

I continue to remain completely baffled by this arcane practice.

** Phil.
--------
[1] Khanum Madras hot curry powder ingredients :  coriander, turmeric, chillies, mustard, Bengal gram flour, cumin, salt, black pepper, fenugreek, garlic.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Hugoboss on June 02, 2020, 08:21 AM
I made this mix. about 2 weeks ago it still is fresh with same aromas so shelf life is ok.
It's good to know the fried powders are fine after 2 weeks. Further time will tell if the potency drops in comparison to a non-heated version.  It may be an idea to make a batch raw and only roast smaller amounts as required.

Thats what I did last night. Made up a smaller raw batch and dry roasted it in a small pan first - just enough for 2 portions. Closest to BIR aroma and taste I have ever got to after all these years. I dont notmally post on Forums, I just lurk in the background ! However, this dry roasting of the powdered spices is a revelation for me and I just had to give feedback  :evil:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 02, 2020, 08:32 AM
Thats what I did last night. Made up a smaller raw batch and dry roasted it in a small pan first - just enough for 2 portions. Closest to BIR aroma and taste I have ever got to after all these years. I don't normally post on Forums, I just lurk in the background ! However, this dry roasting of the powdered spices is a revelation for me and I just had to give feedback

Many thanks for reporting, Hugo — it is a great pleasure to have a former lurker as a new contributor !
** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: mickyp on June 02, 2020, 11:14 AM
Ive got a tub of chilli powder in the cupboard, i looked at the label to see what chillies were in it (Schwartz) only to find it contains Chilli pepper, Paprika,Cumin,Oregano,and Garlic Powder. all the label on the front states is CHILLI POWDER, what is that all about.

If you check their coriander its probably got methi in it as well
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 02, 2020, 11:37 AM
In fact, their ground coriander is uncontaminated (albeit pricy, unless you buy their catering-size jars).  The confusion arises from the fact that in British English (don't know about American) "chilli powder" often refers to the blend of spices used to make a chilli con carne, which is why I always refer to the pure spice in its powder form as "ground chillies".  Anyhow, your own fault for using Schwartz instead of TRS/East End/Rajah/Shan/Laziza/Mehran/whatever, or even Mrs Balbir Singh's !
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 02, 2020, 03:45 PM
Just to be pedantic the spices are heated in a non stick pan to smoking point and NOT fried

Which raises two points (at least):

1. Non stick coatings give off extremely noxious gases when overheated. Therefore:
2. For safety only heat large quantities of spice powders in a non-stick pan to ensure the "safe" temperature of the pan is not exceeded - as Syed demonstrated (and even then I'm a bit dubious).

And I assume, having not tried it, that there is an actual reason for doing it in a non-stick pan. Presumably they burn or stick in an uncoated pan?
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 02, 2020, 03:49 PM
"chilli powder" often refers to the blend of spices used to make a chilli con carne...

They should label it chilli con carne mix or such like then. I never buy Schwartz spices but it would never occur to me that chilli powder implied spice blend for a chill con carne.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 02, 2020, 05:37 PM
They should label it chilli con carne mix or such like then. I never buy Schwartz spices but it would never occur to me that chilli powder implied spice blend for a chill con carne.

Then be very careful next time you go shipping, Santa.  You now know about Schwartz, but do you know about Tesco Hot Chilli Powder (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/251994596) (Hot chilli powder - a blend of chillies, cumin, garlic and oregano), Tesco Mild Chilli Powder (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/251994901) (the same), Sainsbury's Hot Chilli Powder (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/251994901) (Chilli Powder (93%), Cumin, Garlic, Oregano), Sainsbury's Mild Chilli Powder (https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/spices/sainsburys-mild-chilli-powder-110g) (the same), etc.

If you're going to buy supermarket "chilli powder", probably best to stick to Morrisons (https://groceries.morrisons.com/products/morrisons-hot-chilli-powder-264853011), which is the real thing.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 02, 2020, 06:24 PM

Thats what I did last night. Made up a smaller raw batch and dry roasted it in a small pan first - just enough for 2 portions. Closest to BIR aroma and taste I have ever got to after all these years. I dont notmally post on Forums, I just lurk in the background ! However, this dry roasting of the powdered spices is a revelation for me and I just had to give feedback  :evil:

Hugoboss,

When you make curries do you typically fry (/bloom/tadka - whatever you want to call it) your powdered in oil before adding any liquid in the pan? Or do you first add some form of liquid (tomato or base etc) and then add the powdered spices?
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 02, 2020, 08:27 PM
Then be very careful next time you go shipping, Santa.  You now know about Schwartz, but do you know about Tesco Hot Chilli Powder (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/251994596) (Hot chilli powder - a blend of chillies, cumin, garlic and oregano), Tesco Mild Chilli Powder (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/251994901) (the same), Sainsbury's Hot Chilli Powder (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/251994901) (Chilli Powder (93%), Cumin, Garlic, Oregano), Sainsbury's Mild Chilli Powder (https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/spices/sainsburys-mild-chilli-powder-110g) (the same), etc.

If you're going to buy supermarket "chilli powder", probably best to stick to Morrisons (https://groceries.morrisons.com/products/morrisons-hot-chilli-powder-264853011), which is the real thing.

** Phil.

I don't buy spices from supermarkets unless it's the usual suspects such as TRS, Rajah etc. But it is indeed an eye opener that "chilli powder" can be interpreted in this way.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Hugoboss on June 02, 2020, 08:40 PM

Thats what I did last night. Made up a smaller raw batch and dry roasted it in a small pan first - just enough for 2 portions. Closest to BIR aroma and taste I have ever got to after all these years. I dont notmally post on Forums, I just lurk in the background ! However, this dry roasting of the powdered spices is a revelation for me and I just had to give feedback  :evil:

Hugoboss,

When you make curries do you typically fry (/bloom/tadka - whatever you want to call it) your powdered in oil before adding any liquid in the pan? Or do you first add some form of liquid (tomato or base etc) and then add the powdered spices?

My "standard" sequence Romain is :
Oil/ghee plus occasional whole spices
Garlic and/or ginger
Watered down tomato puree
Dried spices
Base gravy

Love your website by the way. Great presentation.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 02, 2020, 08:58 PM
Mine is more-or-less the reverse — oil, brought up to temperature but nowhere near smoking, ground spices (watch them "fizzle and foam" [BE (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2815.0)'s term]); when the fizzling and foaming are dying down, g/g and/or tomato purée, meat (almost always free-range chicken breast), and then do nothing for about ten minutes other than keeping the chicken in motion so that it cooks evenly.  Then start adding the base, initially in very small quantities followed by reduction, but as the dish approaches completion, base in larger quantities but still followed by reduction, and chopped coriander stems.  When ready, a small pinch of GM and some torn coriander leaves.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 02, 2020, 10:01 PM
Thank you for your kind words HugoBoss. Appreciate it :smile:

I asked the question expecting this to be the answer. There seems to be two camps in the restaurant curry at home world. Those, like Phil and myself, that bloom their spices and those, like you, that don't. So I would venture the notion that what you are doing is emulating the blooming of the spices in a dry pan to some extent.

If you have the time and inclination to try blooming your spices in oil before adding the diluted tomato puree, I would love to hear if you get the same or similar flavours you are experiencing with this dry roasting technique.

I am close to the point that I would bet money that you will find the curry in which you bloom spices to be even better because the fat soluble compounds released by heating the spices wind up dissolved in the oil. Almost - because I haven't tried this dry roasting powdered spices myself.

I know, when I have tried liquid then spices, it's almost as if I've forgotten to add salt. Everything is somewhat flat and lifeless.

FWIW, my house and my local Indian restaurants smell exactly the same when I'm cooking curries and it's the point where I add powdered spices to the pan that it happens.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 02, 2020, 10:24 PM

Which raises two points (at least):

1. Non stick coatings give off extremely noxious gases when overheated. Therefore:
2. For safety only heat large quantities of spice powders in a non-stick pan to ensure the "safe" temperature of the pan is not exceeded - as Syed demonstrated (and even then I'm a bit dubious).

And I assume, having not tried it, that there is an actual reason for doing it in a non-stick pan. Presumably they burn or stick in an uncoated pan?

At the end of the process there did appear to be residue that was stuck and the non-stick coating was not new at the start. Not many of my non-stick pans are either.

I seem to recall this discussion a few years ago.  The temperatures needed to become of possible concern are quite high and easily avoided.  Even if the temperature is high the hazard to anybody is extremely low. Your canary might fall off it's perch though.  Perhaps the stoneware range would be a better option or even a dedicated Teflon pan bought new for just one purpose. I doubt you'd have much success with this by puting powdered Turmeric in an over-heated Teflon pan. *1

When I try this I'll be using a small pan and reduced quantity on very low heat as per instructions.  My usual batch size is about 9 rounded tablespoons (Aus @ 20 ml) or approximately 1 cup in total volume. This is roughly half of the quantity in the video so my 8" pan should be adequate.

I would imagine that the same result could be achieved in a low oven (120-140'C) on a baking paper lined tray with the spices spread evenly and moved about occasionally.

Edit:  There is a question in the video's comments about bulk quantity for restaurant use to which it is answered that it is made twice weekly and done in a large rice wok.  So this would be a seasoned steel pan with no synthetic non-stick coating.

Note *1.  Video is not real time.  Observe video editing cut at the first chefs spoon of Turmeric going into the pan.  Immediate smoke. Cut to Turmeric spread across the whole pan and no smoke.  Pan too hot in Take 1 perhaps?
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 02, 2020, 10:48 PM
The sequence of cooking is a curious point Romain. I guess many are fearful of burning powdered spices in hot oil right at the start.  If you've ever done it, or burnt your garlic, you'll know that you can't continue. It's bin and start again.  This cooked curry powder may be another way of blooming the spices with reduced risk.

I have no hesitation in blooming whole seeds and other larger spices but doing powder is always a concern for me. I have never been shown exactly how hot the oil can or should be, or for what time powdered spice can or should be cooked without risk of spoiling.  I err to the side of caution and most likely at the expense of flavour and aroma.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Bob-A-Job on June 03, 2020, 02:55 AM
Quick check, I couldn't find the post I saw a couple of days ago about 'mixing a small portion and frying it later'...

This struck me as a point of interest, the order in which the powders are added and so will be fried for longer.. obviously some benefit from heat more than others and so the initial Turmeric to the pan for the longest time.  Does this powder release any oils, even in dried form to help fry the other powders?
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 03, 2020, 03:40 AM
The sequence of cooking is a curious point Romain. I guess many are fearful of burning powdered spices in hot oil right at the start.  If you've ever done it, or burnt your garlic, you'll know that you can't continue. It's bin and start again.  This cooked curry powder may be another way of blooming the spices with reduced risk.

I have no hesitation in blooming whole seeds and other larger spices but doing powder is always a concern for me. I have never been shown exactly how hot the oil can or should be, or for what time powdered spice can or should be cooked without risk of spoiling.  I err to the side of caution and most likely at the expense of flavour and aroma.

I have burned spices. I have burned garlic. I have overcooked chicken. I have overcooked steak. My grill temp was high yesterday, my neighbour distracted me and I overcooked a lovely leg of lamb. Very sad.

I will do all of those things again. I have made more mistakes in the kitchen than I can remember. It happens to everyone. How else do you learn? It's like skiing. If you don't fall down once in a while you aren't trying hard enough.

I'm not an "expert" but I would like to suggest that anyone who is looking for that "elusive BIR something" (a term I have never understood until right now) start their quest by blooming your spices in oil. It's not hard. And it makes a huge difference.

Livo,

It's easy enough to figure out. I have started making some YouTube videos to accompany the blog - also under glebe kitchen. There are a few restaurant style curry videos where I have tried to clearly demonstrate the process. You could start there.

And then just grab your pan, some oil and a handful of some blend of Indian powdered spices. Heat your oil until it just shimmers. Toss in around 3 or 4 teaspoons (however much you usually add for a portion of curry) and stir continuously. Follow what I show in the videos. You want to be able to keep it in the zone for about 30 seconds before you add in a liquid ingredient.

If it burns you've just learned that your stove setting was too high. Throw it out, wipe out your pan and start again. In fact, if it ever starts to look like you've lost control abort by adding in your first wet ingredient (I use tomato puree in water in my workflow).

Try again. If it doesn't bubble like in the videos your heat is too low.

Try again. Eventually you will get the feel. I would be really surprised if it took you more than 5 tries to get it down. And even it takes you 10 tries what does it cost? 30 minutes of your time. A pint of oil. And $2.00 in powdered spices. What do you have to lose? It's a game changer...

If you are interested you can watch my intro to Indian restaurant video https://youtu.be/e7hgTpiXtjQ. I focus on the how and why in that video rather than the what. It is short and to the point...

Please don't fear it. Embrace it!


Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Hugoboss on June 03, 2020, 07:48 AM
Thank you for your kind words HugoBoss. Appreciate it :smile:

I asked the question expecting this to be the answer. There seems to be two camps in the restaurant curry at home world. Those, like Phil and myself, that bloom their spices and those, like you, that don't. So I would venture the notion that what you are doing is emulating the blooming of the spices in a dry pan to some extent.

If you have the time and inclination to try blooming your spices in oil before adding the diluted tomato puree, I would love to hear if you get the same or similar flavours you are experiencing with this dry roasting technique.

I am close to the point that I would bet money that you will find the curry in which you bloom spices to be even better because the fat soluble compounds released by heating the spices wind up dissolved in the oil. Almost - because I haven't tried this dry roasting powdered spices myself.

I know, when I have tried liquid then spices, it's almost as if I've forgotten to add salt. Everything is somewhat flat and lifeless.

FWIW, my house and my local Indian restaurants smell exactly the same when I'm cooking curries and it's the point where I add powdered spices to the pan that it happens.

Romain, after 45 years of trying every method I have certainly used your approach many times also with success. However, I can cook up to 20 individual curries in one day and I prefer the small amount of liquid before dried spices as its less prone for error and everyone who eats my curries has no complaints whatsoever. This "new" method of dry roasting first helps me to maintain the safer approach but elevates the final outcome in my opinion. I can easily use your method of blooming the dried spices in oil first when I cook for myself and/or my wife so I will do a head to head at the weekend and post the flavour results.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 03, 2020, 08:43 AM
May I ask, Hugo, these 20 curries a day — are you in the catering business ?
** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: mickyp on June 03, 2020, 08:48 AM
In fact, their ground coriander is uncontaminated (albeit pricy, unless you buy their catering-size jars).  The confusion arises from the fact that in British English (don't know about American) "chilli powder" often refers to the blend of spices used to make a chilli con carne, which is why I always refer to the pure spice in its powder form as "ground chillies".  Anyhow, your own fault for using Schwartz instead of TRS/East End/Rajah/Shan/Laziza/Mehran/whatever, or even Mrs Balbir Singh's !

Your not wrong, I know better now, the pot is about 6 years old now and it only gets used for chilli con carne and the other half won’t let me chuck it. My spice cupboard contains no Schwartz whatsoever
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 03, 2020, 09:21 AM
My spice cupboard contains no Schwartz whatsoever

Then you are assured of a place in Heaven, Micky, rather than looking forward to spending the afterlife having ghost chillies rubbed in your most tender regions while gently roasting in the fires of Hell !

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: noble ox on June 03, 2020, 09:51 AM
My observation of cooking tomato paste after the spices made me notice that the cooking process stalled with cold paste.
So at prep time I used hot water to dilute which gave a more fluent result and better final taste , as with Syeds vindaloo adding his hot chilli gravy.Also noticed some birs have a pot of hot tomato dilute.
Somewhere in the archives is a post from b edwards on spice cooking worth reading if anyone missed it
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 03, 2020, 10:14 AM
I think you were thinking of this (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2815.0), NO:

Quote
METHOD
Put the oil, tomato puree and pepper / onion in a pan and on the heat.
When the contents of the pan are frying briskly, add the spices, and mix well with the oil. You can give the pan a good shake, stir with the spoon, or a combination of the two, it dosen't matter, as long as everything is well mixed.
The spices will fizzle and foam - this shows they are cooking properly.
The hotter the oil, the more they will foam and the quicker they will cook. [ Forget about smoking hot oil - yes it will work, but timing is crucial.] After a while, the sizzling will start to die down.  This indicates that the spices are cooked, and the process must be stopped NOW, but ideally just before this point. With practice, it is not difficult to judge the right moment.
[While all of this is going on, anyone downwind of your kitchen will be getting the full benefit of the Indian Restaurant Smell. What a shame that this is wasted on those in the kitchen.]

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: noble ox on June 03, 2020, 10:36 AM
Yes Phil
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 03, 2020, 11:26 AM
However, this dry roasting of the powdered spices is a revelation for me and I just had to give feedback  :evil:

The revelation is only a consequence of you having been doing it wrong previously all those years by adding your spices to liquid and therefore missing the benefit of extracting the natural oils as effectively as by adding to hot oil or by this new proxy method of heating the spices separately beforehand.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 04, 2020, 12:55 AM
Care to give feedback on your attempt at the fried curry powder Phil?  I haven't had a chance to try yet.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 04, 2020, 02:51 AM

Romain, after 45 years of trying every method I have certainly used your approach many times also with success. However, I can cook up to 20 individual curries in one day and I prefer the small amount of liquid before dried spices as its less prone for error and everyone who eats my curries has no complaints whatsoever. This "new" method of dry roasting first helps me to maintain the safer approach but elevates the final outcome in my opinion. I can easily use your method of blooming the dried spices in oil first when I cook for myself and/or my wife so I will do a head to head at the weekend and post the flavour results.

Hugoboss, peace. I meant no offence.

I would expect the dry roasting would get you part of the way there so long as the toasted spices are used immediately. I am just curious how close it comes to a blooming spices in oil approach. Looking forward to your results. Thank you for offering to do this.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Hugoboss on June 04, 2020, 07:47 AM

Romain, after 45 years of trying every method I have certainly used your approach many times also with success. However, I can cook up to 20 individual curries in one day and I prefer the small amount of liquid before dried spices as its less prone for error and everyone who eats my curries has no complaints whatsoever. This "new" method of dry roasting first helps me to maintain the safer approach but elevates the final outcome in my opinion. I can easily use your method of blooming the dried spices in oil first when I cook for myself and/or my wife so I will do a head to head at the weekend and post the flavour results.

Hugoboss, peace. I meant no offence.

I would expect the dry roasting would get you part of the way there so long as the toasted spices are used immediately. I am just curious how close it comes to a blooming spices in oil approach. Looking forward to your results. Thank you for offering to do this.

No offence taken from you whatosoever Romain although other commentators seem to think that the 12000+ curries I have prepared for satisfied  and repeat customers over the past 3 years were all cooked "wrong". Cant wait to get them right and earn even more money  :smiling eyes:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 04, 2020, 08:59 AM
I would expect the dry roasting would get you part of the way there so long as the toasted spices are used immediately.

Maybe not.  Chef Syed says these toasted spices last, "These spice powders will last long, the same as normal powders. "

I am just curious how close it comes to a blooming spices in oil approach. Looking forward to your results. Thank you for offering to do this.

That would be the test.

We can't discount this as being wrong. He's been doing it for quite a while apparently.  According to Indian Spices 101 there is no "rule of thumb" regarding how to cook, use or blend spices.  It's a free for all and anybody can do whatever they like and whatever works in the application.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 04, 2020, 10:02 AM
Care to give feedback on your attempt at the fried curry powder Phil?  I haven't had a chance to try yet.

Well, it went off very well indeed.  I used a brand-new Ernesto ILAG-coated 28cm pan, nothing stuck, everything smoked nicely without burning, but as the resulting vindaloo was a disaster I am not in a position to say to what extent it improves the flavour.  I also need to ask Syed to clarify his "one curry spoon = six tablespoons" equation.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 04, 2020, 10:25 AM
Phil, you can see from the video that his 1 curry spoon (ie; Chef's spoon) is well rounded if not close to heaping, but it doesn't matter at all how much it holds. The exact amount is not critical, but we get the approximate ratio being 2 : 1 : 1 for Turmeric : Coriander: Cumin and then a small amount each of the minors, being Garam Masala and RCP or Paprika (approximately 36 : 1 for Turmeric : each minor).  It doesn't need to be measured to the grain. 

We don't really need to go down the how many tablespoons in a Chef's spoon path again.  I have 3 Chef's spoons and they each hold a different volume of water.  The UK / Canadian TBSP (15 ml) is different to the US TBSP (14.8 ml or 0.5 Fl oz) is different to the Australian TBSP 20 ml etc etc.  It doesn't matter a bit. The volume is not relevant.  It is the ratios and they aren't critical. :pill:

The Tablespoon units is probably just to make the whole presentation more fuss proof for the pedantic punters of the world. He's probably watched Latif's videos and seen the flack he copped from being a bit loose with the measurement side of things using serving bowls to measure cups.  :omg:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 04, 2020, 10:54 AM
Well, too late, I have asked Syed the question on Youtube.  But you will, I think, agree that 18:1 and 36:1 are rather different, and might have some impact on the flavour/balance/etc.

Syed replied :
Quote
Yes you are right. It should be 6 tbsp all together. 1 chefspoon equivalent to 3 tbsp. To be honest we don't use tbsp in restaurants, we always use chefspoon on everything, because of the large quantity.  that's why the mistakes happened.  I will fix it soon. Also i will put the written recipe soon on description.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 04, 2020, 10:58 AM
P.S.  Just opened the small Kilner jar in which I stored Syed's curry powder overnight, and compared it to a tin of Khanum curry powder with a BBE date of October 2020.  Very different, but I was not overpowered by the Syed aroma as I had hoped/expected to be.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 04, 2020, 11:29 AM
The pre-cooked vegetables video says that 3 Chef spoons of oil (liquid) is approximately 1/2 a cup or 120 ml so 2 Chef spoons (level) would be 80 ml or close to 6 TBSP (over 5) at 15 ml UK size.  I would say his 2 heaped / rounded chef spoons would in fact be closer to 12 TBSP than 6.  He has just as much on top of the spoon as in it.

Regardless of actual volume, it is about ratios and with the ratio of Garam Masala and RCP / Paprika to the other main 3 spices, being small anyway, somewhere between 20 and 30 : 1 for each should be fine and what he is actually showing in the video.  In this instance I'd be going by the picture, not the words, and replicating what he demonstrates.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 04, 2020, 12:16 PM
Regardless of actual volume, it is about ratios and with the ratio of Garam Masala and RCP / Paprika to the other main 3 spices, being small anyway, somewhere between 20 and 30 : 1 for each should be fine and what he is actually showing in the video.  In this instance I'd be going by the picture, not the words, and replicating what he demonstrates.

Which I tried to do.  But my curry spoon / chef's spoon will not fit into my spice jars, so I needed to know the equivalent in dessert spoons which do fit !  Hence my weighing of two heaped chef's spoons of turmeric (64gm), then investigating how many dessertspoonsful I would need to yield that weight ...

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Donald Brasco on June 04, 2020, 07:05 PM

No offence taken from you whatosoever Romain although other commentators seem to think that the 12000+ curries I have prepared for satisfied  and repeat customers over the past 3 years were all cooked "wrong". Cant wait to get them right and earn even more money  :smiling eyes:


It’s only “the usual suspect” spreading denigration and negativity.  Ignore!  :owsome:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 04, 2020, 09:54 PM
Fair point Phil. I buy Turmeric in 5 kg bags and keep it, and my Coriander and Cumin, in 1 litre airtight clip seal stackable containers.  No problem using chef spoons but rarely need to.

https://sistemaplastics.com/products/klip-it-rectangular/1l-rectangle (https://sistemaplastics.com/products/klip-it-rectangular/1l-rectangle)
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 05, 2020, 02:43 AM

No offence taken from you whatosoever Romain although other commentators seem to think that the 12000+ curries I have prepared for satisfied  and repeat customers over the past 3 years were all cooked "wrong". Cant wait to get them right and earn even more money  :smiling eyes:

I expect you will be rich and quite possibly famous :smile:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 05, 2020, 03:12 AM
I would expect the dry roasting would get you part of the way there so long as the toasted spices are used immediately.

Maybe not.  Chef Syed says these toasted spices last, "These spice powders will last long, the same as normal powders. "

I am just curious how close it comes to a blooming spices in oil approach. Looking forward to your results. Thank you for offering to do this.

That would be the test.

We can't discount this as being wrong. He's been doing it for quite a while apparently.  According to Indian Spices 101 there is no "rule of thumb" regarding how to cook, use or blend spices.  It's a free for all and anybody can do whatever they like and whatever works in the application.

I am not discounting anything but I cannot find any food science (you know I'm all about the food science) to support this either.

What science I can find tells me that spices degrade over time. If you've ever toasted whole spices, ground them and cooked with them you know that there is a big difference between freshly ground and commercial ground spices.

This degradation is attributable to oxidation of the aromatic compounds. Two key accelerants of the rate of oxidation are light and heat. Heating something to or near to the point of smoking is seriously accelerated.

So the statement that they will last as long as any spice mix is a bit hard for me to just accept. I happen to know first hand that anyone can say anything on the internet :smile:

To provide a timeline overlay, Bon Appetit suggests that the shelf life of ground spices at their peak is around 3 months under normal conditions. Not science but at least a semi-reputable source.

https://www.bonappetit.com/story/do-spices-go-bad
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Hugoboss on June 05, 2020, 07:49 AM

No offence taken from you whatosoever Romain although other commentators seem to think that the 12000+ curries I have prepared for satisfied  and repeat customers over the past 3 years were all cooked "wrong". Cant wait to get them right and earn even more money  :smiling eyes:

I expect you will be rich and quite possibly famous :smile:

I will happily take the money Romain but stay anonymous thank you very much  :evil:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Hugoboss on June 05, 2020, 07:52 AM
May I ask, Hugo, these 20 curries a day — are you in the catering business ?
** Phil.
Sorry Phil, missed this question. I suppose the answer is yes although it was never my intention  :wink:
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: noble ox on June 05, 2020, 08:53 AM
Does anyone here know the molecular structure of 1/2 tspn of garam masala ?
Or the maths equation to caramelise an onion ?
I dont have a clue or care at all. But I like to spend time cooking and enjoying a curry
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 05, 2020, 09:23 AM
Does anyone here know the molecular structure of 1/2 tspn of garam masala ?
Or the maths equation to caramelise an onion ?
I dont have a clue or care at all. But I like to spend time cooking and enjoying a curry

By his own admission, the defendant is guilty of the most heinous heresy, and this court therefore finds him guilty as charged and sentences him to be hanged (for 28 days, to ensure that his meat is tender), drawn (he may have the guts to say what he thinks, but we don't need to eat those guts) and quartered.  After which he will be marinated in Patak's Tandoori Paste (no point in wasting the decent stuff like Laziza on him), skewered (something much thicker than 8mm skewers are indicated here — 50cm should ensure that his eyes water as inserted) and finally roasted in the tandoor until done.  Never let it be said that this forum would let a decent heretic go to waste !
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 05, 2020, 11:42 AM
I didn't say I agreed. Just the messenger.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 05, 2020, 11:54 AM
Does anyone here know the molecular structure of 1/2 tspn of garam masala ?
Or the maths equation to caramelise an onion ?
I dont have a clue or care at all. But I like to spend time cooking and enjoying a curry

No, but even Syed said fresh Garam Masala is better than store bought. Fortunately, I made fresh.

There is no secret.  I spent all day in the kitchen. It is done. No missing 5%. No secret ingredient (although I did use the coriander root). This man has given it up to everybody  and anybody who cares to follow instructions.

Best curries I've ever cooked, without a doubt. Syed's base gravy, roasted powder, Chicken Tikka and the rest is easy.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 05, 2020, 12:24 PM
Well done, Livo.  So two questions — what volume of chilli paste, what dilution of tomato purée ?
** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 05, 2020, 03:43 PM
what dilution of tomato purée ?
** Phil.

I always wonder why dilute at all? Why not just use half the amount of puree, assuming a 1:1 dilution?
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: JonG on June 05, 2020, 04:23 PM
Does anyone here know the molecular structure of 1/2 tspn of garam masala ?
Or the maths equation to caramelise an onion ?
I dont have a clue or care at all. But I like to spend time cooking and enjoying a curry

No, but even Syed said fresh Garam Masala is better than store bought. Fortunately, I made fresh.

There is no secret.  I spent all day in the kitchen. It is done. No missing 5%. No secret ingredient (although I did use the coriander root). This man has given it up to everybody  and anybody who cares to follow instructions.

Best curries I've ever cooked, without a doubt. Syed's base gravy, roasted powder, Chicken Tikka and the rest is easy.

That’s good news  :like:

Now all we need is a volunteer who will transcribe the recipes into written form in the appropriate categories in the “recipes” section of this forum (with the blessing of Britishian of course), so that if the videos ever disappear, or YouTube goes to a paywall model, we can still refer to them.

An enthusiastic curator who will create an index post pointing to links of them all as a recipe set would also be a nice touch, if anyone should have the time and inclination.

Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 05, 2020, 05:33 PM
Excellent idea, and I am happy to volunteer to maintain the index as it will need to be updatable in perpetuity, something that only a moderator or Admin can do.  But first, let's seek Syed's permission.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 05, 2020, 05:34 PM
I always wonder why dilute at all? Why not just use half the amount of puree, assuming a 1:1 dilution?

I can answer that with the benefit of recent (unfortunate) first-hand experience.  Undilute tomato purée just doesn't flow easily when added to a mixture of butter ghee, oil, garlic and onion [Chicken tikka vindaloo, 03:46 (https://youtu.be/i0nrzAIa5QQ?t=236)], and you end up with lumps of the stuff rather than the start of a sauce.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 01:58 AM
Well done, Livo.  So two questions — what volume of chilli paste, what dilution of tomato purée ?
** Phil.

Question 1: Which dish or supplement recipe has the Chilli Paste Phil?  I didn't come across it. 

I made;
1) Single quantity of Tikka Marinade for the 1 kg of Chicken Tikka.
2) Half quantity of his heated Spice Curry Powder. (6 TBSP : 3 TBSP: 3 TBSP : 1/2 tsp : 1/2 tsp) (50/50 RCP / Paprika so 1/4 tsp each)
3) Half quantity of base gravy (linear scaled and perfectly fine). (2 large and 1 medium onion probably 600 g. Everything else half.)
4) BIR Style Tikka Masala Base.
5) Pre-cooked vegetables with extra potatoes.
6) Butter Chicken. (Use Chicken Tikka)
7) Chicken Tikka Masala. (Use Chicken Tikka)
8) Chicken Pasanda. (Use Chicken Tikka)
9) Vegetable Pasanda. Onion, capsicum, mixed frozen vegetables, spicy fried okra. (This turned out to be a big bowl full.)
10) Chicken Madras. (Used pre-cooked chicken of my own as Syed hadn't yet posted one.)
11) Mango Chicken (Pre-cooked chicken for this as well. The others all used the Tikka.)
11) Bombay Aloo (I winged it on this one as he doesn't have a recipe posted but it was good).
12) I still had the last of his Pilau Rice and some Korma.
13) I cheated on the naan and used frozen Deep brand tandoori naan.

As much as possible was made directly from Syed's youtube channel to spec.

Note: I only had enough base gravy for one more dish after cooking all of the above.

Question 2: As for the tomato puree dilution, there is always going to be a question.  Syed's maths is a little bit out in the one place where it is mentioned which is the Butter Chicken video.  He says to use 6 TBSP of diluted tomato puree which he gets by using 2 TBSP of puree and 5 TBSP of hot water.  I imagine he meant to write 2 TBSP puree in 4 TBSP hot water.  The question is whether the original (undiluted puree) is double or triple concentrate. Out here we call it Tomato Paste and Puree is not a concentrate at all.  I think you would be pretty safe to go with a non-concentrated mix so either use passata, single puree or dilute the concentrate down by the appropriate amount to make it single.  I had some left over cherry tomatoes so I wizzed them up in the Nutri-bullet and used them as part of the amount for the Base Gravy and it didn't hurt it.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 02:07 AM
Now all we need is a volunteer who will transcribe the recipes into written form in the appropriate categories in the “recipes” section of this forum (with the blessing of Britishian of course), so that if the videos ever disappear, or YouTube goes to a paywall model, we can still refer to them.

An enthusiastic curator who will create an index post pointing to links of them all as a recipe set would also be a nice touch, if anyone should have the time and inclination.

Some of the videos already have written ingredients and Syed is planning on doing more. You can see he has been very busy with what he's already put up.  A mammoth effort so far.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 02:16 AM

What science I can find tells me that spices degrade over time. If you've ever toasted whole spices, ground them and cooked with them you know that there is a big difference between freshly ground and commercial ground spices.

This degradation is attributable to oxidation of the aromatic compounds. Two key accelerants of the rate of oxidation are light and heat. Heating something to or near to the point of smoking is seriously accelerated.

So the statement that they will last as long as any spice mix is a bit hard for me to just accept. I happen to know first hand that anyone can say anything on the internet :smile:

To provide a timeline overlay, Bon Appetit suggests that the shelf life of ground spices at their peak is around 3 months under normal conditions. Not science but at least a semi-reputable source.

https://www.bonappetit.com/story/do-spices-go-bad

This would appear to be what we should expect.  There is plenty of information out there that says powdered spices are not roasted but Syed does it.  In order to follow his recipe set correctly I've made a half quantity so I'll be interested to see how long it lasts.  Fresh spices are obviously best but some of my powdered individual spices are getting a bit old and they are still perfectly fine.

Incidentally Romain, wherever possible in my cook yesterday I bloomed spices in oil which in some of the dishes meant changing the sequence slightly.  I encountered no problems with this.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 06, 2020, 04:00 AM

What science I can find tells me that spices degrade over time. If you've ever toasted whole spices, ground them and cooked with them you know that there is a big difference between freshly ground and commercial ground spices.

This degradation is attributable to oxidation of the aromatic compounds. Two key accelerants of the rate of oxidation are light and heat. Heating something to or near to the point of smoking is seriously accelerated.

So the statement that they will last as long as any spice mix is a bit hard for me to just accept. I happen to know first hand that anyone can say anything on the internet :smile:

To provide a timeline overlay, Bon Appetit suggests that the shelf life of ground spices at their peak is around 3 months under normal conditions. Not science but at least a semi-reputable source.

https://www.bonappetit.com/story/do-spices-go-bad

This would appear to be what we should expect.  There is plenty of information out there that says powdered spices are not roasted but Syed does it.  In order to follow his recipe set correctly I've made a half quantity so I'll be interested to see how long it lasts.  Fresh spices are obviously best but some of my powdered individual spices are getting a bit old and they are still perfectly fine.

Incidentally Romain, wherever possible in my cook yesterday I bloomed spices in oil which in some of the dishes meant changing the sequence slightly.  I encountered no problems with this.

Delighted to hear that Livo! You mentioned that it was the best curry you have ever made. Love to hear, as this progresses, if any part of that is attributable to the blooming part.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on June 06, 2020, 04:08 AM
Now all we need is a volunteer who will transcribe the recipes into written form in the appropriate categories in the “recipes” section of this forum (with the blessing of Britishian of course), so that if the videos ever disappear, or YouTube goes to a paywall model, we can still refer to them.

An enthusiastic curator who will create an index post pointing to links of them all as a recipe set would also be a nice touch, if anyone should have the time and inclination.

Some of the videos already have written ingredients and Syed is planning on doing more. You can see he has been very busy with what he's already put up.  A mammoth effort so far.

As an gentle observation - Syed is trying to build a YouTube channel. At some point he will get enough followers and traffic to get some financial renumeration for his extraordinary effort.

These recipes are his intellectual property. He is sharing. Please just support him unless he offers his explicit permission.



Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 06, 2020, 08:53 AM
Question 1: Which dish or supplement recipe has the Chilli Paste Phil?  I didn't come across it. 

Chicken tikka vindaloo — but I think that Syed has already answered the question in his recently added prose : 6 tablespoonsful.  But now I look again, that has been changed, and now reads :

Quote
Ingredients :
    ?Chillie powder gravy - 1 tbsp
    ?1 cup of warm water

I assume that the first is the powder content (2 tsp paprika, 1 tsp ground chillies = 1 tbsp total) and the latter the liquid.

Quote
I made;
[...]
2) Half quantity of his heated Spice Curry Powder. (6 TBSP : 3 TBSP: 3 TBSP : 1/2 tsp : 1/2 tsp) (50/50 RCP / Paprika so 1/4 tsp each)

In fact, I think you made the full quantity of his dry-roast curry powder, because when I queried his "2 chef's spoons = 12 tablespoons" he agreed and downgraded it to six.  But you may have made it in the wrong ratios !

** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 09:24 AM
In fact, I think you made the full quantity of his dry-roast curry powder, because when I queried his "2 chef's spoons = 12 tablespoons" he agreed and downgraded it to six.  But you may have made it in the wrong ratios !

I don't think I did, going on the visuals. I used half the quantity that Syed used because I used a half sized pan otherwise it wouldn't have fit, and it didn't matter.  The end result was superb and that's what counts. The ratio of the 3 main spices is a given and the traces of Garam Masala and RCP / Paprika are variable of little consequence.

I did take some photographs but I thought it would be better to show the pictures of my cook-top today.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 09:31 AM
As an gentle observation - Syed is trying to build a YouTube channel. At some point he will get enough followers and traffic to get some financial renumeration for his extraordinary effort.

These recipes are his intellectual property. He is sharing. Please just support him unless he offers his explicit permission.

I could not agree more. It is an extraordinary effort and a game-changer for me.  Blooming the spices / pre-roasted spice mixed powder.  Who knows?  I did both and all I can say is this did it for me.  These were Restaurant quality dishes cooked at home.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 06, 2020, 09:34 AM
The ratio of the 3 main spices is a given

Agreed.

Quote
the traces of Garam Masala and RCP / Paprika are variable of little consequence.

Possibly ...

[photographs] — messy b@gg@r !
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 10:41 AM
It was a big day in the kitchen Phil. At least I had foil on the cook-top for this one otherwise Mrs L would be a little upset with me today.

Here are a few more pics:

The curry powder in an 8" non-stick pan and in a very nice green plastic bowl.

Chicken Tikka marinating and cooking some on my new $5.00 cast iron plate. (it had a missing handle).  you can see the base gravy behind right and the pot behind left has pre-cooked chicken going.

Butter Chicken and Chicken Pasanda.

The pre-cook vegies with extra potato.

After that I stopped photographing.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 11:22 AM
Delighted to hear that Livo! You mentioned that it was the best curry you have ever made. Love to hear, as this progresses, if any part of that is attributable to the blooming part.

Romain, I watched your video and found it highly beneficial. It made me realise that I have bloomed spices in the past and it may well have been the difference between my ordinary curries and the ones I really enjoyed without me realizing where the difference came from.  Something for me to watch in the future.  It isn't that difficult to do the spices in the oil and I've achieved it with good outcomes before today. I've rarely burnt anything because I've always erred towards caution.  I guess it's a matter of pushing it to the limit if you really want to test your own ability.

As for my recent big cook with Syed's Spice powder and recipe set, wherever the recipe allowed, I put the spices in early before water liquids.  I won't be able to assess the difference it made without doing side by sides for each dish and to be honest, I doubt I will.  These curries just worked and I can't be more pleased.  I thank both you and Syed.  This has been a brilliant week for me in relation to my curry kitchen.

Yesterday and this morning my kitchen truly had the aroma of a commercial curry kitchen.  I love it.

I think it was the 2 coriander roots I put in the Base Gravy.   :Clown: 

But honestly, I do think it does all matter, and yes, the coriander root is part of it and yes, Kasuri Methi is a big part of the aroma and taste.

I do remember a Base Gravy recipe where it was explicitly stated the importance of using the root, stem and leaf of the coriander plant.  Somebody with better memory than me might recall which one it was.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 06, 2020, 03:40 PM
His measurements certainly don't match his words. I'm just watching his bhaji video and he says half teaspoon coriander powder which he measures with a half teaspoon measure which he heaps so it is equivalent to one teaspoon. Same for other powders. So go by his actions rather than his words I think.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on June 06, 2020, 03:53 PM
I do remember a Base Gravy recipe where it was explicitly stated the importance of using the root, stem and leaf of the coriander plant.  Somebody with better memory than me might recall which one it was.

Certainly a reference to it here (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3772.msg98388#msg98388), Livo, so may well be CA's.  Which indeed it was (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3772.0).
** Phil.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 11:01 PM
I knew I'd seen it somewhere and that could well be it, but I seem to recall a more involved discussion on the significance of using the root in base gravy.  It may have been early days when I was on 3 different sites.  As soon as it mentioned again I knew I'd read it before.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on June 06, 2020, 11:44 PM
His measurements certainly don't match his words. I'm just watching his bhaji video and he says half teaspoon coriander powder which he measures with a half teaspoon measure which he heaps so it is equivalent to one teaspoon. Same for other powders. So go by his actions rather than his words I think.

I don't have a problem with it. The style of cooking is one that relies on experience and using the eye. Any standardised measures are simply comfort to inexperienced followers and can be considered a helpful guide.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Donald Brasco on June 07, 2020, 06:46 AM
My observation on this is that the “dry frying”, or roasting, or whatever you want to call it, must be achieving some degree of cooking the spices so as to minimise the amount of further cooking needed in the final dish.  Probably for convenience and to speed up the service time, just as every other precook is undertaken in BIR cooking. 

Is chicken precooked to improve the quality of the dish, or to speed things up?  The latter I think.  Same with these spices.

Note how relatively little frying time he gives the mix powder in his new Balti video which went up last night.

https://youtu.be/05UlbJWsDH0

From 14:10 in the video the mix powder and other spices are added and fried for not long on a very low heat. No sign of singe-fry, or any great emphasis on needing to get those spices cooked before moving on.

I do expect that this dry roasting will give you a much improved outcome if you never previously were achieving getting your spices fully cooked during preparation of the final dish, but otherwise probably not so much.

PS.
His balti is differentiated from the other curries by just one teaspoon pataks balti paste, probably a reasonably standard approach in the BIRs, as it’s an easy way to get a different flavour from other curries.

I remember when balti suddenly became popular and widespread back in the 90s - every BIR menu was banging on about how it’s cooked in a traditional style dish which gives it a special flavour... ROLFMAO. What liars! They should’ve been saying “Pataks just came out with this new paste which we are gonna stick a spoonful into your curry”. No wonder it needed a “cover story” to go on the menu to explain why it tasted different!
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: noble ox on June 07, 2020, 08:52 AM
Donald brasco.
This heating /frying or cooking of spices , could it be as simple as getting rid of the dampness ? 
Spices are purchased in 25 kg bags decanted into containers lurking around in kitchens for who knows how long.
Easy way to get back to factory settings and freshness
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 07, 2020, 01:08 PM
His measurements certainly don't match his words. I'm just watching his bhaji video and he says half teaspoon coriander powder which he measures with a half teaspoon measure which he heaps so it is equivalent to one teaspoon. Same for other powders. So go by his actions rather than his words I think.

I don't have a problem with it. The style of cooking is one that relies on experience and using the eye. Any standardised measures are simply comfort to inexperienced followers and can be considered a helpful guide.

I don't have a problem with it as long as I use exactly what I see him use. If I cook from his words I'm going to get a different result due to the large difference in what he says and what he actually does.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Secret Santa on June 07, 2020, 01:15 PM
I do expect that this dry roasting will give you a much improved outcome if you never previously were achieving getting your spices fully cooked during preparation of the final dish, but otherwise probably not so much.

Precisely. If you're doing it the right way, i.e. spices into hot oil without any added liquid then you're not going to see any difference by this dry spice-roasting method. In fact, dry roasting is driving off the very aromatics you want to keep, so potentially it will taste worse. Although the effect would probably be too subtle to notice.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Robbo141 on July 09, 2020, 08:51 PM
My usual rule of only having one small batch of mix powder on the go, for freshness, has gone the journey.  I’m out of base gravy and will be making Syed’s tomorrow.  That includes his mix powder, so...
(https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/971285e023e89de9f38675f0750b6793.jpeg) (https://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#971285e023e89de9f38675f0750b6793.jpeg)

It has fewer ingredients than Romain’s that I’ve been using from his excellent Glebe Kitchen website. The color difference is clear in the finished powders.
I’ll be trying Syed’s vindaloo tomorrow once base is done, then doing the live cook-along with Misty Ricardo on Sunday, which fortunately is also vindaloo.  Winner, winner, chicken (vindaloo) dinner.

Robbo
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: romain on July 13, 2020, 04:16 AM
 :smile: Nice to see that Robbo! Thx!
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: livo on October 08, 2020, 10:38 PM
Yesterday was just over 4 months since I made my batch of Syed's curry powder. I can say, without any doubt, that I should have made a fresh batch before cooking. I cooked 5 chicken and 2 lamb curries and while they were all acceptable they just didn't have the intensity of the dishes cooked with the mix powder when it was fresh.

I'm not at all surprised by this. It is what I expected as the result of the process. I could have quickly made a new batch but against my own thoughts, I didn't.  Now I know to make small batches for immediate use, or not far into the future anyway.

The dishes were still good, but just not as good.  I didn't mention it to any of the diners and there were no comments made, but I knew.
Title: Re: Syed dry-fried mix powder
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on October 09, 2020, 08:55 AM
Based solely on my own experience, I would say that Syed's dry-fried mix powder is fine for at least two weeks stored in a Kilner-style jar in a cool dark cupboard, is still OK at one month, but has lost much of its potency by two.

** Phil.