Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: pete on March 25, 2005, 06:44 PM
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I'm not sure if I have done this poll correctly.
But if it works, I really would like to know what the general consensus is.
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Dear Pete
from my previous experience with chefs i am 100% sure that they are hiding something.
your goodself and the curry queen went to the same place and shown two totally different ingredients for the curry gravy , the proportion of the ingredients as well are not right at all .
In one gravy they are using 2 onions ,1 carrot , 1 pepper with different spices.
In the other gravy they are using 2 pounds of onions ,1 carrot ,1 pepper with just curry powder .
Pete do you think this is right?
George in a previous link said that your chef showed you his gravy , the curry queen chef showed her his gravy , and the restaurant gravy remained secret .
there is a very very nice taste missing i can not duplicate it i cannot explain enough how nice is this taste, if they are telling us the truth why is our gravy missing that taste.
They are deceiving us ,getting our money ,showing us only the basic ingredients but not that very very important ingredients which make that huge difference.
Once i took a sample from your gravy ( which use 600ml oil) to my restaurant and asked the chef about his opinion he told me the same as the other chef told you it is nice laughed and told me only salt is missing.
his assistance came after a few minutes i asked him as well about the gravy he was very honest and told me there is some thing missing, i asked him to tell me but he refused and told me (SECRET ), i asked him again why then the other chef said it was o.k and the only thing was missing is salt ? he told me because if he said there is something missing you are going to ask him what is it and he don't want to tell you and the restaurant does not want to loose you as a good customer .he is just been diplomatic.
The restaurant owners are earning a lot from the curry gravy and as MR PAT CHAPMAN said in his web page that the turn over for the Indian restaurants in the UK is ?2.5 billion per year. when they are earning this amount of money i don't think they will be willing to tell their secret and i don't blame them but i want them to be honest and not deceiving us by telling us different ingredients and spices.
thanks
ghanna
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Pete, you yourself have seen several curries prepared by different curry house cooks. You've seen the ingredients and you've seen the techniques. The one thing you have not seen and nor I think has anyone else here, correct me if I'm wrong, is the making of their base sauce from raw ingredients to final product.
I honestly don't think a poll is even necessary, the evidence seems to weigh heavily on there being a secret ingredient and it can only be hidden in the base sauce.
As Sherlock Holmes said "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!"? ?:D
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I've tried, gently, to suggest that the chefs are witholding or deliberately changing something in the base recipe, for some time, but ha ha or I don't speak good English usually crop up somewhere.
I too would relish the experience of a trip to a restaurant / takeaway kitchen, but we do not want to be conned. We need to see a dish cooked from base to conclusion, so we know that EVERYTHING is being disclosed. I know that time wise this is impossible in one evening, so, as I believe that the mystery is in the base sauce, I think that buying a base sauce from our locals and using our gained knowledge to complete the various dishes will confirm this, we should try this as our next step of elimination. I personally have tried to buy base sauces from my locals (one of which I have used for almost 20 years) and they will not sell it to me. To this end I will be out this weekend, and buy a base from anywhere that will sell me one, just to see if this is where "the taste" is and then we have narrowed our search.
I hope that this post makes some sense as I have the weekend off and have had a little bit of wine,
cheers all,
Blondie
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hi,all
i try ed my self to buy the basic gravy different times but without luck .
their reason is ....... it does not taste nice by it self let us make you a tasty curry sauce instead.
have a very nice weekend all
thanks
ghanna
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I think your all mad.
Curry Secret. Look at this way nearly every curry gravy recipe that has been posted here on this site is very very similar.
Wake up people there is no one secret ingredient, what the hell would it be?? and how could such a thing be kept so secret.
A secret so secret only hundreds of chefs all over the country know to the exclusion of everyone else.
The secret is there is no secret, I tried out Pete's gravy made a few curries, now they tasted as good as a take-away, the only
difference was and this is the secret, I cooked it, not the local-takeway. It's all in the mind.
Read again the article from the guy in the curry club, he details how the staff worked overnight to make the base sauce, he was there saw it all (at least that is the impression he gives). Unless the staff at this restaraunt were theatrical geniuses and the whole thing was staged (which I doubt very much) then what he saw and documented is exactly how thousands of Indian resteraunts and take-aways make curries every day.
Good luck on your search for the holy grail but I think you will be sadly disappointed.
Hey for all I know maybe there is a secret ingredient, but the only way it would ever be totally secret if it was so awful and terrible an ingredient that to tell anyone other than someone in the trade would be to destroy the Indian take-aways for ever. Do you still want to know the secret???
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...how could such a thing be kept so secret. A secret so secret only hundreds of chefs all over the country know to the exclusion of everyone else.
Good point, even though the jury is still out for me on whether we actually have a complete list of all the potential ingredients any of these places would ever use in a base sauce.
There are thousands and thousands of Indian restaurants and take-aways in the UK, with perhaps four times as many chefs, plus retired people and many others who have prepared the elusive base sauce. How can anyone keep such a secret amongst that huge group? It's not like the spice for Kentucky Fried Chicken, the sauce for a Big Mac or the precise recipe for Sacher Torte. These recipes are each owned by a single organisation who no doubt carefully control the release of pre-packed mixes to franchisees and others, or bake a cake at only one hotel in Vienna. There is no such agreement in the UK restaurant industry. I'm amazed there is no genuine 'curry secret' book already on the shelves.
My suggestions for things to try would be (in no particular order) monosodium glutumate, fenugreek leaves, and worcestershire sauce. The latter stuff was seen to be used in a huge range of dishes when the sudan 1 list was published. It must be worth a try. L&P say on the bottle that it 'adds instant richness'. Split up a batch of basic sauce and try adding different things to different (small) samples, always comparing it to a commercial 'control' sample. I suggest a commercial sample of base sauce is a pre-requisite for any assessment.
Nobody responded to my question on whether the smell from you house matches the smell from an Indian restaurant when you are cooking base sauce. At other forums, people have suggested the main element of the Indian Restaurant smell is fenugreek. Is it?
One way to establish what's in the base sauce might be to have it tasted by someone with a very keen sense of taste or a skilled (western) chef. Say: 'what's the difference between my sauce and this commercial control sample?'
Regards
George
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I can't stop thinking about this.
Lets look back to when we had no Indian establishments. The first guys arive from Bangladesh, they must have had a hard
time finding the ingredients they needed to make the food they were used to.
I did read a book about a family growing up in England after moving from Indian and the food featured quite a bit, they used to do
things like make baked beans on toast but spice it up with some onions and Garam Masla.
Maybe the reason for the taste is something more common to the west than the east?
Now I'm starting to believe in the secret.
On the other hand after spending all day yesterday cooking a base sauce and making myself a curry the wife walked in last night
and said the house smelt like the local Indian curry house.
Fenugreek leaves do have that sort of smell but I when you walk past a resteraunt in the evening there is a distinct pungent smell in the air, and I think it's this smell that is the key to the flavour.
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I think your all mad.
Curry Secret. Look at this way nearly every curry gravy recipe that has been posted here on this site is very very similar.
Wake up people there is no one secret ingredient, what the hell would it be?? and how could such a thing be kept so secret.
A secret so secret only hundreds of chefs all over the country know to the exclusion of everyone else.
The secret is there is no secret, I tried out Pete's gravy made a few curries, now they tasted as good as a take-away, the only
difference was and this is the secret, I cooked it, not the local-takeway. It's all in the mind.
Read again the article from the guy in the curry club, he details how the staff worked overnight to make the base sauce, he was there saw it all (at least that is the impression he gives). Unless the staff at this restaraunt were theatrical geniuses and the whole thing was staged (which I doubt very much) then what he saw and documented is exactly how thousands of Indian resteraunts and take-aways make curries every day.
Good luck on your search for the holy grail but I think you will be sadly disappointed.
Hey for all I know maybe there is a secret ingredient, but the only way it would ever be totally secret if it? was so awful and terrible an ingredient that to tell anyone other than someone in the trade would be to destroy the Indian take-aways for ever. Do you still want to know the secret???
I pretty much agree with everything said here, my feeling is the secret taste is in the oil reuse from the curry gravy, so yes in a way this is a secret ingredient.
I would be happy to be proved wrong but I strongly doubt that there is a missing ingredient that somone is suddenly going to find "hey folks, just add 100ml of shampoo to the base sauce" and everyone lives happily ever after.
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And on another note if I'd been going to the same takeaway for 20 years and they wouldnt let me have some base sauce I'd tell them Ill be going elsewhere!
When I asked to get into the kitchen of my local restaurant they were very cool about it but if they had refused I wouldnt have taken no for an answer, I go there every Thursday night without fail.
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I have been in 2 kitchens and seen 5 dishes cooked, both places used fenugreek leaves in the final curry, both had the thinnish yellow base sauce, both had that taste. Im not sure if they used oil off the top of the gravy, they certainly didnt skim it off at the time of cooking, both had a little pot of oil on the stove.
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Hey Adamski, now who's mad? Don't do too much thinking, this curry secret thing can become an obsession! ?:D
Seriously though I had had thoughts along the same lines as you. When the Bangladeshis first started opening curry houses in the late 40's early 50's, it is quite likely they would have found some spices difficult to source, at least initially, so they may have experimented with substitutes. I think this is where the secret ingredient first reared its ugly head. But it must also make it an everyday available item, so it's nothing exotic, it's just unknown.
I think the methi or dried fenugreek leaf issue is closed. They definitely add a certain curry smell to the dish and people have seen chefs use them so we can conclude that they are a necessary ingredient, but I don't think they are the secret ingredient.
Also I think that while the use of spiced oil adds to the dish, it still doesn't make the curry takeaway-like, it just gets it closer to the real thing.
That unique restaurant curry smell will be the defining point in the search for this ingredient or ingredients. When our curries are indistinguishable from restaurant curries by smell alone then I think the quest will have ended.
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Hi All,
I've said several times in other forums that I do not believe that the taste we are looking for is in the oil. I feel fairly sure that the oil is re-used but, if you taste the oil from a finished takeaway curry it has very little flavor, and certainly not the taste that we are looking for.
cheers all,
Blondie
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hi ,all
i cooked every gravy recipe in this forum.
i cooked different curry gravies from the net ,from chefs. from Friends that they got it ?from their take away or the restaurant that they go to and from different cookbooks.
i got about 50 recipes for the gravy some of them they use milk instead of water to cook the gravy , some of them they used a spicy stock called AKHNI, some of them used red lentils ,some used chana dal .
some recipes said brown the onions .some said no just boil them
some said brown the garlic and ginger and some said no just boil them.
some said fry the garlic and ginger in the beginning of making the gravy , others said no just add it at the end.
some of the recipes said use potato some said no
some of them used red pepper and some of them didnot use it.
some of the recipes used some kind of ?raddish called (mooli) ,others used raddish.
some of the recipes used CELERIAC and some just use celery.
some used tomato puree and others used tomato paste, as well some recipes didnot use tomato at all.
some recipes used oil others used ghee.
some used curry powder ?others used different kinds of spices.
some of them used ajwan seeds others used black cumin seeds and others used black onion seeds ?still others used a spice blend called ?PANCH FORAN and fry them ?in oil before they add any thing else.
some use fenugreek leaves in the gravy some say no just add it at the end.
some ?use coconut ,almond , cashewnut ,condensed milk or evaporated milk.
some use whole garam masala in the beginning some do not use it at all.
some use ready made masala paste some just stick to curry powder.
some use monosodium glutamate (MSG) some not.
some use tomato ketchup in the gravy
some use tamarind in their base others use plain yogurt.
some fry a spice called ASAFOETIDA in oil before they add any thing else.
some other use coconut milk.
some use a very expensive spice called SAFFRON.and some use turmeric.
some use a spice oil some use just plain oil
Believe me i try ed every one of them ?but none of them tasted like the proper gravy with
that very very nice taste ?.there is something missing ?a very nice taste i cannot duplicate it.
some of the recipes i used 10 kg of onions i thought may ?be if i cook in bulk i will get that taste but i didnot get any far .
some times i leave the gravy for two or three days and then cook with it but no luck in getting that missing taste.
i try ed every recipe ,every technique but i am not getting far.
could you please tell me why ?
thanks
ghanna
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Blimey Ghanna you've just about covered everything. Based on this there must be a secret.
Right the only way to find the answer is for all of us to club together, put ?50 each in the pot (not alot considering how much money we must have wasted on this pursuit). Bribe a chef to show us everything, from sauce to finish, then we taste it (money
back if it's not right).
Or bribe one of the waiters or a lower paid member of the kitchen, everyone has a price!
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Nice post ghanna, it summarises nicely the majority of variations found in the base sauce debate, and like you I too have tried them all.
i try ed every recipe ,every technique but i am not getting far.
could you please tell me why ?
Yes I can. There is an ingredient or perhaps less likely a cooking technique used in the base sauce of real curry houses that we are not using. It has to be in the base sauce as that is the only thing our 'observers' have not seen made from start to finish.
But you knew that already didn't you!
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When I have got into the restaurant kitchens or if I am buying a takeaway, I always have a discreet look at every ingredient on their shelves and tables.
I have recipes using worcester sauce, but I have never seen it in a takeaway.
Has anyone else?
As for chicken stock, I think it's an uncomftable but strong possibility.
Uncomfortable for vegetarians that is.
Perhaps it is considered too much trouble to make, to show at the demos.
It would involve boiling scraps and bones.
I tried making a stock with lamb bones one time (as suggested by Pat Chapman)
That was upsetting and didn't taste right.
But most people like chicken and adding chicken in some form, to the gravy would improve the flavour.
On the plus side, I think the gravies we have are very close now.
It just needs a touch of..................?????????????????
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hi,all
i bribed one of the kitchen staff once , this is what he said ....
don't peel onion,garlic or ginger just but them in boiling water the night before,
next morning they are going to be very easy to peel ,peel onions and garlic but not the ginger
don't chop garlic or onions but put them whole in the big gravy pot ,chop the ginger coarsely and add to pot.
cover with water and bring to boil, boil until every thing is cooked (he don't know for how long but he said for ages )
the chef will come after that and add a lot of powder ( this is what he told me when i asked him what is there in the powder I DO NOT KNOW THE CHEF ALAWAYS BRING IT WITH HIM FROM HOME IN THE SAME DAY THAT WE ARE MAKING THE GRAVY ) , i tried to put some pressure on him but really he didnot know,he is a very honest man and i know that from a previous experience.
after that the chef but new oil and as well the oil from the old gravy he told me we don't through any oil away we use it and re-use it over and over again.
the chef add a big tin about 1 kg of tomato puree and a medium tin of tomato paste.some salt, boil for a long time then puree until it is very smooth .
cook again until oil rises to the top of the gravy .
they don't use it in the same day but the following day.
when they are making the curries they alaways fry some onions garlic and ginger(slightly cooked previously ) in the beginning then they add some tomato paste and spices and the main ingredient (chicken, lamb or prawn ) then the curry gravy and boil for some time then they add one of these ingredients ( coconut , almonds, cashewnut or evaporated milk, rose water or kewra water .it depend which kind of curry you want i.e KORMA . pasanda .......etc.
in some of the curries they add fenugreek leaves at the end but not in all of them
as well they add chopped coriander leaves at the end.
this what he told me .all of us know that but we don't know what is there in the powder that the chef use.
when they arrive in the kitchen at about 4:00 they start cooking the chicken ,lamb and defrost the prawn in just boiling water.
they use garlic,ginger , curry powder,salt , water to cook the chicken and lamb
the lamb will take longer to cook so they use some thing green called papaya as a tenderizer in order to cook the lamb quickly.
i hope i helped
i like this site . all the people her are very friendly and every one trying to help
thanks .
GOD bless all of you
ghanna
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Hi ghanna
don't peel onion,garlic or ginger just but them in boiling water the night before,
next morning they are going to be very easy to peel ,peel onions and garlic but not the ginger
Now that's very interesting and here's why. During the second world war when all food was in short supply, all sorts of tricks were used to improve the daily diet. One of these tricks was to boil the onions unpeeled because it gives the dish a browner colour and adds to the flavour. It was used in place of gravy browning. So it makes me think, is it worth a try in the base sauce? It may not be the secret on its own, but it might be one step closer.
Of course it has the ring of truth to it as well, because most restaurants will take any short cut that saves time or money or both.
You mention tomato puree and tomato paste. What's the difference?
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Hi adamski
Or bribe one of the waiters or a lower paid member of the kitchen, everyone has a price!
Don't think I haven't thought about that one before.
But here's the strange thing. There are about 70,000 people employed in Britains' curry houses, almost all of Bangladeshi origin and most on minimum wage and even sub minimum wage. Is it possible that of these 70,000 people not one hasn't seen this site or ones like it and not seen a money making opportunity? And yet not a sniff of help or interest seems to be forthcoming from them.
I don't know what to conclude from that, but one way or another it seems a bit weird!
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Here's some text from a job advert at caterer.com:
Tandoori Chef ?7.51ph
Rajinda Pradesh is our modern contemporary Indian restaurant located in the unique surroundings of Sherwood Forest. We require an experienced Head Chef and Tandoori Chef to enhance our already highly qualified team. The restaurant has high volume turnover and also provides a busy take away service.
Salary: ?7.51ph ? Location: Nottinghamshire ? Date: 16 Mar 2005 16:01:32 ? Employer type: ?
For the head chef, they are offering ?21K plus bonus.
A chef on ?7.51ph might well be interested in earning some pocket money for a private demo!
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hi , yellowfingers
tomato puree is canned tinned tomato with juice ,big tins 400g small tins 230g
tomato paste is tomato with much of the water been removed ,you can find it in tubes or even small tins 30p a tin at sainsbury near to the dry pasta.
thanks
ghanna
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I had another thought about onions. If you've been doing this curry thing for long enough you will inevitably have read about only using this type of onion or that type of onion. Red onions are commonly quoted as being the only ones to use for example and in Bruce Edwards' 'Curry House Cookery' posted by Pete he says medium sized spanish onions are the only ones that will do.
Now I've tried several types of onion and have never been able to tell any significant difference to the base sauce. But if the skins were left on while boiling, well that's another matter all together. I also wonder if they even bother to peel them after boiling, perhaps they just blend them as is.
There is a very good case for doing this:
1. It costs nothing to do.
2. It makes peeling easier and therefore quicker, or if not peeled and just blended in with the sauce even quicker.
3. There is historical use of the method and it has a noted effect on colour and flavour.
I have enough base sauce to last for a century at the moment, but if anyone is making a new batch, perhaps they might try leaving the skins on and post the results.
I would suggest a long simmer if doing this as it will take quite a bit of time to break down the cellular structure of the skins, which will vary with the type of onion used. Certainly this would provide a sensible reason to simmer for many hours as proposed by several contributors here. It would also make sense of using a particular type of onion as there is likely to be more variation in flavouring from the skin than from the flesh of the onion.
More generally, I think the way to approach finding out what the missing ingredients are is to ask yourself, when considering whether to try something new, "would the chef really want me to know about this?". What I mean by that is would it put you off curry for whatever reason if you were told what the ingredient is.
Chicken stock would very definitely fall into this category for vegetarians, and some people would balk at using onion skins so this seems a likely candidate too.
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hi ,all
the reason of not peeling the onion when it is raw is they make you cry and the kitchen staff do not like this specially there is a lot of onions (sacks).
the garlic is small and very difficult to peel as well, when they soak it in boiling water overnight the skin peels easily.
most of the ginger flavor is in the skin and just under the skin like the potatoes because of that they don't peel the skin, as well they use huge amounts of it and they don't want to spend the whole day peeling ginger and at the end you will not notice it in the gravy,
i forget to mention that the chef put some fresh herbs in the gravy and he put that with the spices.(he bring these herbs ready chopped from home and mixed together )
the kitchen staff told me the whole place smelled like mint, dill , coriander and another herb that he thinks is sacred basil.i made some inquires and i find out that this sacred basil is used a lot in Thia cooking.it is stronger than normal basil.
thanks
ghanna
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hi,pete
i made a curry gravy before with Worcester sauce it didnot make any difference i.e not that missing taste.
once i made the proper FRENCH chicken stock with chicken bones and flesh , onions, garlic ,celery,turnips,theme(same flavor as Indian ajwan seeds )black pepper,salt,and all the classic ingredients .boiled slowly for long time .it is out of this world strained the stock used instead of water in the curry gravy it was very nice FRENCH - INDIAN meal but not really like the gravy we are enjoying in the restaurants, the chiken stock flavor is very strong .
lamb bones got a very very strong flavor ( it smells like live lamb do you know what i mean?) French chefs never use it to make stock .they use beef ,chicken ,some kinds of fish and vegetables to make stocks.
i made lamb stock before the whole house smelled very bad and
the whole family left the house and only returned after i opened all windows for 6 hours and used a lot of air freshener.
thanks
ghanna
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Alright then, how about this?
All the meat, chicken and veg is precooked.
That is a definite procedure.
The oil from that and any sauce created goes into the curry gravy.
To duplicate this I would probably use the Bruce Edwards "Curry House Cooking" method.
I have been boiling some curry gravy for a couple of hours.
The oil goes very dark and the sauce seems to almost disintergrate.
I added some home made chicken stock.
Very tasty but missing the flavour still.
I no longer feel that the missing flavour can be made by prolonged boiling.
Sometimes I feel the aroma is there before I puree it.
That kills it dead.
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Hey.
How come if we have 161 members only 11 have voted?
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I added some home made chicken stock.
Very tasty but missing the flavour still.
Whoa there Pete, not so fast!
You've only done half the cooking. To decide whether it has made a difference or not you will have to make a full curry with that sauce because the rapid frying during the final cooking or the combination of the sauce with the final added spices or perhaps the flaming of the pan could be the trigger for the missing flavour and aroma.
I'm not covinced that it's possible to tell whether you have cracked it just by making the base alone. I know I'm teaching you to suck eggs here, but you have to be really scientific about this. All tests for new base sauces should be done by making a single curry that you are most familiar with each and every time and there must be no changes to the recipe other than the new base sauce. Ideally it would also be a simply spiced curry to minimise any further ingredient permutations, so ideally something like a madras.
Unfortunately it may be that there are two or three things we are missing and that any two say of the three will just not work on their own. Of course that opens up numerous permutations, which is why you and I and everyone else have such a tough time of it.
As far as using stock goes, I think that it would have to be fairly subtle or at some point some meat eater who also happens to eat the veggie dishes would have sussed it and the restaurant would be up in court pretty quick. I'm not saying it isn't used, just that its effect would have to be subliminal and not in your face.
I think using the chicken pre-cooking stock in the base sauce is a reasonable thing to do, unless you are a veggie, but your friend and mine Mr Pat Chapman says that they just throw it away. Personally I'd say that's a vote for using it! Was it you that saw the chef spoon off the excess oil from a chicken curry and return it to the base sauce pot? Clearly this indicates that they are not too bothered about mixing meat juices into the base sauce.
I no longer feel that the missing flavour can be made by prolonged boiling.
Sometimes I feel the aroma is there before I puree it.
That kills it dead.
The prolonged boiling may still be necessary and if the reports from real chefs are to be believed, definitely is necessary. You can be sure they wouldn't waste time and money boiling for four or more hours if just one or two would do. It may be, however, that it only makes a difference when the missing ingredient(s) are included in the base sauce. It's a bit of a catch 22 situation.
At the risk of repeating myself, the real problem at the moment is that no one has witnessed the making of the base sauce in its entirity and so guess-work rules. Round and round we go!
How come if we have 161 members only 11 have voted?
I was wondering that too, but it just reflects the normal use of forums. There is small a core of regular posters, a few others who dip in and out occasionaly, and then the majority who just lurk until they feel they have something useful to add to the discussion.
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hi ,Pete AND Yellowfingers
i am pretty sure that they re-use the oil from one curry to another and they don't care about meat eaters or not .
every one i asked told me they through out the stock , i believe that, because the kitchen is alaways very hot and they don't refergate the curry gravy it is alaways out side on the cooker day and night,
if they use the chicken stock in the gravy and keep it outside like this it will turn sour and mold will form, any way try some and see..
if the turn out in the restaurant is not full the kitchen staff told me they boil the gravy for at least 10 minutes in order that it will not go bad even if it is covered with oil,it is very hot in there i have been there.
thanks
ghanna
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I was making two different bases today.
There is a very different aroma from the one made with green peppers.
Neither have the flavour yet.
I made the curryqueen prawn vinadaloo from the cooking demo.
I don't understand, but it still isn't right.
It has got to be the base because the cooking of the meal is so simple.
She's seen it made
I saw it made
Something is definitely odd.
It can't be an unknown spice.
I am running out of ideas and feel we are just going round in circles.
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Here's some text from a job advert at caterer.com:
Tandoori Chef ?7.51ph
Rajinda Pradesh is our modern contemporary Indian restaurant located in the unique surroundings of Sherwood Forest. We require an experienced Head Chef and Tandoori Chef to enhance our already highly qualified team. The restaurant has high volume turnover and also provides a busy take away service.
Salary: ?7.51ph ?? Location: Nottinghamshire ?? Date: 16 Mar 2005 16:01:32 ?? Employer type:? ?
For the head chef, they are offering ?21K plus bonus.
A chef on ?7.51ph might well be interested in earning some pocket money for a private demo!
Thats centreparcs for anyone thats interested, I have eaten at the Indian restaurant and it is very nice indeed, extremely limited menu but good
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I don't believe its all in the base sauce.
I did an a test the other day, one curry cooked with hardly any oil as a starter the second
was cooked with loads of oil as a starter and the second one tasted very different, infact the second one tasted nearly like the real thing.
Too many base sauce recipes and too many are similar give or take the carrot.
Hell, it can't be one simple ingredient, I think alto of people would be happy if that was the answer.
For one ingredient to make that much difference to the taste of a sauce is nigh on impossible, we are not talking about a subtle taste that would be missed by most people, but something that we all agree on with out question is definate.
Everyone on this forum KNOWS that what they cook at home still has something not the same.
Whats different,
A) you cooked it and it's not in a sliver foil container or served on a sizzling platter
B) you've not done it day in and day out for 10 years (well most of us have not)
C) you really don't realise that what you've cooked IS the real deal.
Someone tell me that they have cooked a curry using these recipes for someone else, and told them it was a take-away and they
said "no way man this tastes like you cooked it".
I cooked Pete's one for the wife and she said and I quote "you could sell this and no one would know".
Still, is it worth going to the Bengal Cuisine again, my Dads birthday is comming up soon and he's keen on going, maybe I'll push for using the sauce that he cooks and not the "special" already done sauce.
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hi , Adamski
very good idea ,could you please come back and report .
thanks
ghanna
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I don't believe its all in the base sauce.
I think it probably is or the oil, the actual recipe's the chefs use are very simple.
I did an a test the other day, one curry cooked with hardly any oil as a starter the second
was cooked with loads of oil as a starter and the second one tasted very different, infact the second one tasted nearly like the real thing.
This is a very good point, the restaurants use a shedload of oil, for a portion for one I saw about 3 TBSP of oil floating just on top of my curry the other night.
Hell, it can't be one simple ingredient, I think alto of people would be happy if that was the answer.
The only single ingredient I think it could be is MSG
A) you cooked it and it's not in a sliver foil container or served on a sizzling platter
B) you've not done it day in and day out for 10 years (well most of us have not)
C) you really don't realise that what you've cooked IS the real deal.
I think these points sadly could be the nub of it (although my baltis are served sizzling in a cast iron karahi? ;D )
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Hi all,
as good as all of these posts are, I still am not sure if "that taste" is in the base or only occurs during the preparing of the final dish. Surely we need to know for certain which of these it is before we can progress. As I have said before we need to get to our locals and buy some base sauce. Sunday is my takeaway night every week, so I'll be buying my curry from wherever WILL sell me some base sauce.
Cheers,
Blondie
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As I recall Pete said that taste was in the base sauice he bought.
Out of interest last night I cooked a chicken balti for 2, recipe was as per my previous post (restaurant demo), my wife said it has 'that taste', I wasnt sure myself (so difficult to tell when you cook these things yourself I find).
The only things I did different were:
The chicken I used was straight from being pre cooked
I fried only crushed garlic at the start (not ginger, the 2 kitchens I have been in dont use ginger/garlic puree as the first stage) and used 6 big cloves (reason for so much garlic was that recently I cooked an authentic indian dish which was for 3 people, it used 8 cloves of garlic and had something similar to 'that taste').
I also added 2 oxo veggie stock cubes (which have a high amount of MSG in them) disolved in a 3rd pint of water to my base sauce (bruce edwards)
I used pataks balti paste
I used an entire packet of Tesco's fresh corander, half went in the dish, the other half was used as a garnish
Served in sizzling cast iron karahis
Tasted bloody good I must admit!
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Interesting post mark .
I too have been experimenting . I always use the base sauce from Bruce Edwards article as i think it smells better and i go with the recipes from the Curry house cookery ( ?7.95 or something to download ).
I think the extra oil makes a huge difference and also plenty of FRESH corriander .
I have to confess though i stuck a TSP of Pataks Balti Curry paste in last night and it tasted really good .
We had friends round and they said they wouldn't have known the differece from the restruarant !
Could it be as simple as the fact they didn't have to cook it !! I also brought it to the table in foil containers ;D ;D
I think we all tend to whip ourselves here too much over this . Relax it tastes great . By the way im off to the shops today to buy the next size up in trousers :-[
Keith
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Hi Keith,
The Curry House Cookery download you are talking about by Bruce Edwards, does it give more info to that which Pete posted? If it does, then it's got to be good vallue at ?7.95. Could you please post the link for me.
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Curryqueen
Im not sure it will have much more info than pete as he appears to spend an awfull lot of time trying different things . He probably knows more than this . I bought it because it's info thats all in the one place and easy to read . I think it's good value even if you only get one or two things out of it that you didn't know or haven't tried . It's only the cost of a Curry . Here's the link anyway http://www.curryhouse.co.uk/index.html
Keith
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Im of the net for a few days and suddenly the forums as busy as ive ever seen it!! ::)
Anyway just my 2$
I don't think theres a secret ingredient as already been said how could it have been kept so secret. I think its not so much something missing as too much added, keep the base simple, quick and cheap. I don't belive it makes any differnce for the better cooking it for 4 hours as opposed to 1 hour, the sauce seems to take on a different\better taste after standing for a while. Im sure the currys themselves need to be cooked quick as well or "that" taste goes, cooking it too much just ruins the flavour. The gravy needs to be hot before it goes into the curry, this alone I think makes a major differnce to "that" taste.
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Hi Keith,
The Curry House Cookery download you are talking about by Bruce Edwards, does it give more info to that which Pete posted? If it does, then it's got to be good vallue at ?7.95. Could you please post the link for me.
This download is NOT by Bruce Edwards
It is by David Smith.
He has spent a long time working out the recipes.
He said on the forum there, that he had not got these recipes from indian chefs.
I have tried a couple and they are ok.
They are also a tidy format of recipes.
Everything is clearly laid out.
If you think that you will get a missing step ,bringing you closer to a restaurant flavour, then forget it.
You are wasting your money.
There are better recipes on this site.
The curry base, and other recipes are already free on his site, but there are a lot more in the download.
Check out the basics on:-
http://www.curryhouse.co.uk/rsc/index.htm
The only clear advantage is that there is a Q & A section where you can sort things out (after you have paid)
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Hi Curry King
I don't think theres a secret ingredient as already been said how could it have been kept so secret.?
Easily. No one has seen the base sauce as used by a restaurant for its own curries being made from start to finish, so they can put anything in it that they have not told you about.
Several people here have seen quite a few different curries made either in demos or watching in open kitchens, so they've seen the techniques and other general ingredients but not, I repeat not, the making of the base sauce.
Until someone actually sees this made it remains the only possible place to 'hide' a necessary ingredient. Equally of course, if someone did get to do this and there was clearly no secret ingredient being used and a curry made with this sauce has that missing something we are looking for, then it would be case proved and we could move on.
Or as mentioned by someone earlier, buy a batch of a curry houses base sauce and use that for your curries. If the missing aroma/flavour is still missing then that would be proof that it's not the base sauce that we need to work on.
I just can't understand how some people here can post with what seems like certainty that there isn't a 'secret' ingredient in the base sauce.
There's no logic in your arguments.
Where's your proof that there's no 'secret' ingredient in the curry when no one has ever seen the base sauce being made?
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Hi Curry King
Where's your proof that there's no 'secret' ingredient in the curry when no one has ever seen the base sauce being made?
I suppose it's not really proof, it's more a character judgment.
I really believe these chefs when they say there is nothing else.
I have gone back to a chef and asked again, and he was most insistant that the base he gave me was correct.
I felt that further quizzing, was like calling him a liar, which I didn't feel to be the case.
Maybe I'm wrong.
But how much business would he lose by telling?
I know of noone outside this group who would be prepared to make these curries.
Therefore it would not noticibly affect him.
Are these commercial gas cookers capable of producing more heat?
Maybe we're not getting the oil hot enough.
We've all had brilliant chips done in hot oil and we've all had horrid soggy ones where the oil wasn't hot enough.
Maybe you can't make the curries on a domestic cooker because a lack of heat?
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There's no logic in your arguments.
Where's your proof that there's no 'secret' ingredient in the curry when no one has ever seen the base sauce being made?
Each chef has his own recipe and little tricks that make his gravy different from someone else's which they keep close to their chests, this is probaly due to the fact that if the restaurant owner finds out how to make it they would get replaced by someone cheaper, maybe.? The 2 restaurants near me produce completley different vindaloos yet they are both fantastic and have "that" taste.?
That in mind I cannot belive that every single restaurant chef has a little bag labled "curry secret" that they just add to their own paticular gravy to give it "the taste".? I have spoken to a few chefs over time about whats in the gravy and they have all said pretty much the same thing with slight variations.?
I think its all about technique and practice rather than any secret ingredient, I know if a I make crap curry any amount of secret ingredient won't give it "the taste"
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Each chef has his own recipe and little tricks that make his gravy different from someone else's which they keep close to their chests, this is probaly due to the fact that if the restaurant owner finds out how to make it they would get replaced by someone cheaper, maybe.
Unfortunately that just backs my assertion that there could be a secret ingredient in the base sauce. There's just no winning with this one. We'll go round and round with guesses and suppositions because we just don't know!
I think its all about technique and practice rather than any secret ingredient
I definitely think this is wrong. The techniques used in the final curry preparation have been witnessed and verified by at least four people in this group at different establishments. It seems to boil down to:
1.very high heat from start to finish (not normally reproducable at home as the curry house gas rings put out at least five times the BTU as the largest ring on a domestic gas hob). If you're using an electric hob you've got no chance of reproducing the required heat.
2.loads of oil, possibly of the spiced variety from the top of the base sauce, or from the frier
3.browning the garlic/ginger adequately
4.two or three small ladles of base sauce with at least one of these reduced to almost dry consistency
5.igniting the oil/sauce during the final cooking (I briefly got a look in two kitchens many years ago and I saw this in both)
6.pre-cooking anything that can't be cooked in about 10 mins, which is the average final cooking time for the finished curry
Did I miss anything there?
The point is, of all the things we know the techniques of the final curry preparation are the best known because they have been witnessed and confirmed by several people. Therefore I doubt that technique is the missing factor, assuming of course that we are all capable of faithfully reproducing this technique each time.
So if we've got the techniques right, and we've got the base sauce right, and we have people who have recipes for the final curries witnessed at restaurants, but still cannot reproduce the missing aroma/flavour of the takeaway curry, what's left?
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Pete
This download is NOT by Bruce Edwards
It is by David Smith
What i said was that i used the base sauce of bruce edwards as i liked it and used recipes from the Curry house cookery as they seemed to work for me . They are not one and the same i know . As for value for money who knows.I'm sure you could tell me a thing or two for free . i'm still learning .
Keith
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Until someone actually sees this made it remains the only possible place to 'hide' a necessary ingredient. Equally of course, if someone did get to do this and there was clearly no secret ingredient being used and a curry made with this sauce has that missing something we are looking for, then it would be case proved and we could move on.
I must confess that on witnessing the chefs making the curries it did cross my mind that maybe it wasnt salt they were adding but was actually MSG. There is absolutely no doubt that chinese restaurants use MSG and asian grocers do stock MSG (although they supply chinese restaurants also)
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1.very high heat from start to finish (not normally reproducable at home as the curry house gas rings put out at least five times the BTU as the largest ring on a domestic gas hob). If you're using an electric hob you've got no chance of reproducing the required heat.
2.loads of oil, possibly of the spiced variety from the top of the base sauce, or from the frier
3.browning the garlic/ginger adequately
4.two or three small ladles of base sauce with at least one of these reduced to almost dry consistency
5.igniting the oil/sauce during the final cooking (I briefly got a look in two kitchens many years ago and I saw this in both)
6.pre-cooking anything that can't be cooked in about 10 mins, which is the average final cooking time for the finished curry
Ill just lob my 2 peneth in here, I have been in a top restaurant kitchen and a takeaway kitchen.
1. - Yes both on high heat but I think easily reproducable on a home gas ring
2. - I think this is the killer (in more ways than one ;D), they use shedloads both added at the start of the process and in the base gravy. For a portion for 1 person you should probably start with 4 TBSP of oil at least.
3. - Maybe, both chefs I have seen didnt seem to brown the garlic/ginger (actually both only used garlic not ginger), they certainly cooked it for a little while though and it was the first step so maybe it ends up brown by the time the curry gravy goes in?
4. - The restaurant added a small lade and reduced it both times, the takeaway just added one big ladle and that was that so I dont think reducing the gravy is that important.
5. - The restaurant didnt ignite the pan
6. - Absolutely
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I must confess that on witnessing the chefs making the curries it did cross my mind that maybe it wasnt salt they were adding but was actually MSG. There is absolutely no doubt that chinese restaurants use MSG and asian grocers do stock MSG (although they supply chinese restaurants also)
I had a bag of msg which I tried in various recipes.
I noticed no marked difference.
The stuff is odorless like salt.
I suppose it should react with flavours in whatever it goes in.
There was meant to be a cancer link to msg.
I stopped using it a few years back.
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Still got the bag? ;)
Pete, you have bought base sauces, did they have 'that taste' in them?
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Still got the bag? ;)
Pete, you have bought base sauces, did they have 'that taste' in them?
I ditched the bag after the cancer scare.
I also ditched all my Sudan 1 products, a couple of years ago, when there was that scare.
Now as for this base sauce.
I asked for the base sauce and I bought a Rhogan Josh at the same time.
The base sauce was not the same flavour as the Rhogan Josh sauce.
Both had "the flavour"
You could have just added pre cooked veg or meat and it would have tasted like a complete curry
I think it comes from salvaging the oil from cooked curries.
I have seen the oil being spooned back into the base pot.
I don't want it to be that but I am running out of iideas.
I spoke to a chef in Cornwall the other day.
He wouldn't give away a thing.
He kept on going on about secrets.
But he did say to see the curry gravy cooked I would have to be there for about four hours.
No way would he have let me in.
And I know his business is very slow at the moment.
I offered to pay as well.
He said even the bar staff who had been there for 18 months don't know how to do it.
They love to cloak this in mistry, don't they?
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One of the reasons for the mystery could well be because the secret ingredient is quite unsavoury? e.g. MSG? or reused oil
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There was meant to be a cancer link to msg.
I stopped using it a few years back.
Pete if you are worried about cancer don't eat anything in a curry house that is red in colour. The colourings used are ponceau, tartrazine and sunset yellow. They are all carcinogens and tartrazine in particular has been known to kill asthmatics. There was a report that said some places exceeded the recommended use by ten or more times!
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One of the reasons for the mystery could well be because the secret ingredient is quite unsavoury? e.g. MSG? or reused oil
I suggested this earlier, see my onion skin post!
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I had a bag of msg which I tried in various recipes.
I noticed no marked difference.
Pete, did you put it in at the oil stage so that it fried, or later on when there was sauce so that it boiled? This can sometimes lead to a different flavour effect.
Has anyone who has been into a restaurant kitchen ever noticed two bowls of white stuff in their ingredients that perhaps you would have just assumed were both salt, but one might have been msg?
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Pete, did you put it in at the oil stage so that it fried, or later on when there was sauce so that it boiled? This can sometimes lead to a different flavour effect.
Has anyone who has been into a restaurant kitchen ever noticed two bowls of white stuff in their ingredients that perhaps you would have just assumed were both salt, but one might have been msg?
I put the msg in with the water.
So it boiled together
As for the two white bowls
I was told one was salt the other coconut.
And coconut powder does look like that.
I checked it out at my Asian supermarket
Going back to the idea of cooking in bulk affecting the flavour.
I must admit that I couldn't really see why, even though Pat Chapman had mentioned it and a takeaway chef had said so too
But..........
Assuming that you start the recipe with oil cooking garlic/ginger.
And add everything else to it.
You would have litres of oil in the pot
LITRES!!
That means anything added would be deep fried.
That would affect it considerably.
What do you think?
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You would have litres of oil in the pot
LITRES!!
That means anything added would be deep fried.
That would affect it considerably.
What do you think?
In any cuisine, long simmering is always associated with dishes where meat is involved because it tenderises and flavours the meat and also brings the meat flavour into the dish. For the base sauce we're talking about simmering what amounts to a spiced vegetable stew for four hours or more! No meat, as far as we know, is used.
There would be no possible reason for this....unless there is some ingredient in their base sauce that requires prolonged simmering to break down its structure, or extract its flavour. So it goes back to things we've already mentioned like including chicken carcass perhaps. It would have to be carcass, so that it could be removed easily before blending and of course some of the meat would make its way into the base and get blended too! But I think this is a step too far, they might not worry too much about serving veggies a base sauce containing a stock cube, but would they really add whole meat?
Can you think of anything else that would require this amount of cooking to have an effect? If so you probably have the secret ingredient.
On the other hand if the base sauce is just a vegetable stew and there really isn't a missing ingredient then four hours cooking will make little difference compared to one hours cooking for example. So why do they cook it for so long?
When you say 'litres of oil' do you mean in the base sauce? There's no frying going on once the water is added to the pot because the temperature is too low. But you made me wonder why they include it at all. It could be that they add it at the beginning in which case they must be frying some ingredient(s) first and lots of it if eye witness accounts of the amount of oil used are to be believed.
Otherwise, because it sits on top of the veg/water mix, its only effect can be to reduce evaporation from the pot during the four hours of simmering so that they don't have to watch it so closely for topping up. Even after blending the emulsion formed is not at a high enough temperature to allow any frying. The added benefit of this of course is that you get that spiced red oil which can now be used to make the curries.
Anyway the short answer is that no, there is no frying going on once the water has been added.
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More thoughts on the curry base sauce.
If you read through the various posts, it seems to be the concensus that the oil spooned off the final curry is put back into the base sauce pot. Clearly, as mentioned elsewhere, this will have an effect over the course of a night's cooking.
When I spoon the oil off my curries I'm really careful not to pick up any of the curry too. Chefs don't have the luxury of time so they will be less careful and some of the curry must go back into the pot each time, perhaps one or two teaspoons?. But this could easily be copied if each time you make a curry you freeze a teaspoon of sauce and when you have say ten teaspoons from different curries add this to your normal base sauce and boil for another hour or two.
I know Pete posted that he obtained a base sauce which had that taste and was quite thick. I think perhaps he got a sample that had been on for some time and so had thickened and changed colour and flavour because of the added teaspoons of curry sauces.
I think this would account for peoples experience of their curries having that taste if they go in the late evening and sometimes not when they go earlier on. It's not just because the sauce has been simmering longer, it's because it has added richness from a night's worth of added curry sauces.
Also, again as mentioned elsewhere, be sure to let your base sauce rest for at least a day?before use. I think to emulate the curry house technique I would make the base sauce, rest it for a day, heat it back up and add the ten or so teaspoons of the saved curries (you'd have to guess how much in proportion to the quantity of base you have made, I could calculate it if anyone wants to try it), simmer for an hour and let it rest another day before final use.
Who knows it might just come down to technique after all! ( but I personally doubt it).
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hi,yellowfingers
some of the fried garlic,ginger,and onion will go back into the curry gravy pot.
some of the sauce that been cooked will go back as well.
oil from the sauce will go back as well.
don't forget bits from the fenugreek leaves and the fresh coriander that they add at the end of cooking the sauce will go back as well.
bits from the fresh tomato and fresh peppers that they use will go back as well
some of the evaporated milk which they use in korma will go back as well
some of the almonds and other nuts will go back as well
it is very shameful and disgusting form them to do that specially when they are getting huge amount of money from us
thanks
ghanna
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One of the reasons for the mystery could well be because the secret ingredient is quite unsavoury?
I find it interesting that ALL the chefs keep the same ingredient a secret.? I?d expect one chef to ?forget? to mention green pepper, one to ?forget??curry powder, one to ?forget? black cardamom, and so on.? But it?s as if they all took an oath not to mention the same ingredient.? Or it's something they know we would think is disgusting.?:o
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I don't think the flavour can be reproduced at home.
I can't do it, that's for sure.
I just spent another two days holiday trying (the house smells like a restaurant again)
This argument will run forever.
I think the best you can do is add a substitute.
Stock cubes, marmite,bovril, worcestershire sauce, tomato sauce, brown sauce, garlic powder or soups are a few ideas.
Try adding a bit when you next make a batch.
In fact, I think I saw some brown sauce on a takeaway shelf, once
Hmmmmmmmmmm!
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In fact, I think I saw some brown sauce on a takeaway shelf, once
Hmmmmmmmmmm!
Was it marked "that taste" ? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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There is NO secret ingredient in restaurant curry. There should be no further debate on this even.
In St Marks Road, Bristol, the CASH n CARRY, used by most of the restaurants in the South West of England has its doors open to the public every day of the week.
You can go in and buy whatever you like, you can also see the assistants constantly loading sack trucks to take to vans belonging to the restuarants. You can inspect whats in their load. Its just all the stuff we already use. I,ve done it many times.
BUT, there is still a secret of tequnique or something else maybe. - Because I,ve been trying for over 20 years and still CANNOT make a curry that TRUELY tastes like a good restaurant or take away.
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One question I have here (and most of my previous questions have gone unanswered!) is to question whether we're all talking about the same special taste. We can't be sure, of course.
Another question: what percentage of all the places you've ever been to have that taste? i.e. out of all the UK Indian restaurant and take-aways you've ever been to. I'd say 90% in my case, but not 100%, after excluding up-market places which serve 'real' Indian food, e.g. Chutney Mary or the Red Fort in London. Perhaps the other 10% of the curry houses don't have the right connections/spices/method, like we don't appear to have (yet). I still reckon I could distinguish between a supermaket chilled curry and a curry house curry in most cases. The supermarket manufacturers (run mainly by Indians I believe) don't create that taste, either, perhaps because they're not allowed to use so much oil and salt.
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There is NO secret ingredient in restaurant curry. There should be no further debate on this even.
Your statement would carry more weight if you had eye witnessed the whole of the base sauce preparation, which you then see being used in the curries that they serve. Why don't you get back to us when you have done so.
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One question I have here (and most of my previous questions have gone unanswered!) is to question whether we're all talking about the same special taste. We can't be sure, of course.
It's a good point George, and I think the answer is that we are not. I've been trying this restaurant curry lark for about 20 years now (not bragging there, actually I'm quite embarassed about it), and I've yet to achieve the taste and odour I associate with every restaurant curry I have ever had. This includes the curry recipes in this forum which are if the posters are to be believed from real reastaurants. So yes, I conclude that one persons' missing taste is different to that of another person.
? Another question: what percentage of all the places you've ever been to have that taste?
In my case 100%.? There are good places and mediocre, but without fail at every place I've been to, and over the years I've been to many, has always had the taste and odour that I can not achieve at home.
This is borne out, for me at least, when I see recipes posted and the author says, 'yes this is it, it has that taste', but it doesn't when I make it, despite using every conceivable restaurant style technique.
Short of getting everyone together for a taste test, this will forever be a problem.
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It's a good point George, and I think the answer is that we are not. I've been trying this restaurant curry lark for about 20 years now (not bragging there, actually I'm quite embarassed about it), and I've yet to achieve the taste and odour I associate with every restaurant curry I have ever had. This includes the curry recipes in this forum which are if the posters are to be believed from real reastaurants.
In 20 years of trying you must have seen inside a kitchen or had some recipes of a chef?? What gravy recipe do you use?
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I still think something is missing, when you walk by a restaurant of an evening there is a strong smell in the air find out what this is and you will find the missing taste
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In 20 years of trying you must have seen inside a kitchen or had some recipes of a chef??
Yes you'd think so wouldn't you, but I'm not a particularly outgoing sort of person, so I've never really had the gumption to ask for a recipe, believing that there would be no way they would tell me. Even at my peak of eating curry at restaurants, sometimes twice a day, it never crossed my mind to dare to ask to see inside the kitchen as I thought they would take this the wrong way. Most of the info I got was in snippets talking to the waiters.
That said I managed to sneak a look inside two kitchens a few years ago (my friend asked!), but all I saw was what has already been mentioned here: big pot of base sauce, curries cooked in frying pans at full heat, 10 or 15 pots of ingredients next to the range, lot's of flame coming from the pans, etc. I would have fessed up if I knew anything that had not already been mentioned here.
What gravy recipe do you use?
It would be easier to ask which one I haven't used. Currently I have a batch of Bruce Edwards' and this is definitely the best I have used so far. It differs only in the use of carrot and pepper from my previous best, but this is clearly the way to go.
What I find satisfying and yet also frustrating at the same time is that I haven't really learned anything new, yet, from this site. I would have been quite miffed if someone who had only been doing this for five minutes suddenly put my years of effort to waste. But I will still try anything that looks potentially promising, no matter who or where it comes from.
A defining point for me will be when someone posts, 'I have seen a restaurant base sauce cooked from raw ingredients to finished curry, it has that taste, and no unusual ingredients were used'. That's when I'll stop searching, because I still believe either some ingredient or technique is still missing from the base sauces that have been posted so far and if there isn't I would have to give up.
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Well im pleased I have my curry as good as I can get it with the information I know, theres always room for improvement and im always trying new things but?if I were to whip up a quick curry now and you to try it I would be failry sure that you would be impressed with the result. Now thats not to say that I think you couldn't tell the difference between mine and a first class restaurant dish but an average, "not curry every night" joe of the street couldnt, that im sure of.
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Well im pleased I have my curry as good as I can get it with the information I know
Ah but therein lies the problem, it's more about what we don't know than what we do!
if I were to whip up a quick curry now and you to try it I would be failry sure that you would be impressed with the result
Of that I have no doubt, but I do doubt that it would pass side by side comparison with a good bought curry. This is not a criticism of you, my curries, good though they are, would equally fail this test but for me it's not enough to accept that that's as good as it's going to get.
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Of that I have no doubt, but I do doubt that it would pass side by side comparison with a good bought curry. This is not a criticism of you, my curries, good though they are, would equally fail this test but for me it's not enough to accept that that's as good as it's going to get.
I don't think you have much of a choice, there will aways be something missing, bar installing a full restaurant kitchen at your house, employing your own chef and making curry every night on a restaurant scale I can't see what else you can do. I've spoken to chefs and ive even had one round my house, he offered to come round and show me what to do, he even said, "you will not get it exactly the same at home" even he couldnt reproduce it exactly the same at home.
You may believe there is some secret ingriedent missing that once discovered everything you make will taste exactly the same as restaurant curry but as you have said yourself, you've been searching for 20 years yet still are no closer to knowing!
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This includes the curry recipes in this forum which are if the posters are to be believed from real reastaurants.
Lol!, are you seriously suggesting we are making these visits to kitchens up!
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Lol!, are you seriously suggesting we are making these visits to kitchens up!
I can't blame people doubting us.
The recipes we've brought back have got us close but NOT given people what they want.
In fact, they have not given me what I want.
My biggest disappoinment, was the way the Bengal Cusine Curry Gravy, wasn't right.
Why it doesn't work, remains a mistery.
The curry, they cooked with it, was a prawn rhogan josh.
Prawns have a very strong aroma and I couldn't really tell it wasn't totally right, at the time.
On the up side, I can do it as well as they did!
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The recipes we've brought back have got us close but NOT given people what they want.
In fact, they have not given me what I want.
That doesn't mean they are not appreciated Pete! Sometimes we can learn as much from what we don't achieve as we do from what we do.
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Today I am reheating some frozen curries
My freezer has got ridiculously full of left overs
I decide to do an blind aroma test on them
One of them was a curry house curry
That was the clear best without a doubt
Absolutely gorgeous
But a very close match was some whole onions I had cooked in my tandoor
Mark J has said he thinks, the aroma is something to do with onions
Judging from this, I completely agree
Maybe there is something more to the pre fried onions tecnique, than we know
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I asked my local takeaway chap about pre frying onions and he said all he does is fry them with a pinch of turmeric, I asked how long for and he smiled and said 'until they are done', he then said about 10 -15 minutes.
I watched him pre fry them the other day, he uses the same pot as the cury base and does them with the lid on.
When he cooks a single dish he slaps in an amount which I would guess is about the amount you would get from cooking a smallish medium onion, its a good cooks spoons worth
And the other thing I noticed was how long he fries the spices in the oil for, its a good couple of minutes, Im always scared they will burn and never leave them this long, tonight I am cooking a chicken balti and I will fry the spices for longer and see how it turns out
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The pre fried onions I witnesed going into a final dish in an open plan BIR were coloured vellow and still had a 'firm' look about them -- originally I thought they were cooked with curry powder, but tumeric and 10mins cooking sounds about right.
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IAnd the other thing I noticed was how long he fries the spices in the oil for, its a good couple of minutes, Im always scared they will burn and never leave them this long, tonight I am cooking a chicken balti and I will fry the spices for longer and see how it turns out
I look forward to your results
That's always a worry I have
On the issue of prefried onions:-
Do you think the chef almost deep fries them, or shallow fries in a just enough oil?
I think the depth of oil in the pan makes a big difference to the end result
I asked a chef how deep the oil was for making the curry gravy (remember this is in a massive pot)
He said about an inch deep
When they start off the gravy, with the garlic ginger puree, it will be more like deep frying it
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The onions I saw being pre cooked were being shallow fried
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Hi All,
I wonder whether this pre-frying method is much of a consequence to the real taste we seek!
I don't want to be a spanner in the works but when I see my local take-aways and restaurants cooking the masses of curries we buy ( tons every week ) they are so fast at cooking your order, surely they don't have time to include those special secrets and methods in their dishes that makes the answer so special we can't work out what the unknown secret is, if there is one at all !!.
For me I cannot believe? there is so much untold, secret information in such a hugely popular business that refuses to give us more simple clues to the answers we seek.
Keep digging and we will get there in the end....!!!
Ray
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I dont think pre fried onions is the key to anythimg too exciting, just a component I have seen 2 kitchens use and I always tend to use it now
cheers
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I will add this much. Cooking Onions in their raw state without pre-frying does tend to leave a raw taste in the sauce. Adding spices etc afterwards masks this raw taste somewhat. However, frying onions until golden or even caramelised does add a depth to the taste so is worth that extra effort.
Ray
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I have tried many various ways to cook Onions & i have to agree they are a component but not " The whole " taste.
Do you think if i should order my take-away wielding a crowbar & then ask for the ingredients they`ll see it my way ?
& tell all ;D ;D
DARTHPHALL..... 8).....
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Hi all,
Continuing with the Onion? debate I am about to embark on another base sauce trial that I posted a while ago.
It is the "Daag" base sauce that asian women use as a time saver in their busy lives.
Here it is again.
Ingredients
2 lbs Onions, chopped finely
1 ?? x ? ? piece of fresh Ginger, chopped
6 large Cloves Garlic, chopped
3-4 Green Chliies, chopped
6 small Tomatoes, pureed
100 ml?s Veg Oil
4 tsp Coriander Pwdr
? tsp Cumin Pwdr
? tsp Turmeric Pwdr
? tsp Garam Masala
? cup chopped Coriander
1 tsp salt
Method
Heat Oil in a pan and fry Onions until Dark Brown (20-30 mins).
Add Ginger, Garlic and Chilli?s fry 3 min?s
Add Coriander Pwdr, fry 4 min?s , keep stirring
Add 2 Tbsp?s Water if mixture starts sticking
Add Cumin, Turmeric and Garam Masala
Stir 30 sec?s and add Tomato and Coriander Leaves, stir
Add 400 ml?s Water and the Salt and cook on low for 15 min?s
Remove from heat, store in airtight container in fridge.
On the face of it you can see a resemblance to the majority of bases on this site. However, interestingly it suggests to cook the Onions until DARK BROWN and also has a far greater proportion of Ground Coriander than any other spice!!..............Hmmmm!
There was no specific recipe given for the use of this sauce as it seems to suggest it is ready to add just meat and it's complete but I will choose a standard Madras / Vindaloo recipe from the site and try this as well.
I will report back once I have given it the once over.
Ray
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Do you think if i should order my take-away wielding a crowbar & then ask for the ingredients they`ll see it my way ?
& tell all? ;D ;D
DARTHPHALL..... 8).....
You could try it and let us know what happens!! However, you might find getting your curry home with two broken legs and a crowbar up your a--e a bit tricky!!
Ray
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As this is such a small quantity recipe Ray I`m going to endeavor to try it next week ill post my findings.
Would you suggest cooking the Onions slow until Brown or as fast as possible without burning the pan ;D.
DARTH....................
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This recipe comes from Camelia Punjabi and as I recall they are slow cooked
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Thanks Mark.... i`ll go.... for slow ;D.
As Ive done Brown Onions ( Quick ) in my " DARTH MASALA " & that was a tasty Curry.
Yours................DARTHPHALL..... 8).....
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Yep, the recipe does say cook for 20-30 mins, I suppose the slower the better.
Has anyone made this before?? ??? ???
Ray
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Thanks Ray.
I think Mark j has ?
& posted some pics of the Caramelized Onions, i think ???
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I have also read ( but can't remember where ) that to get the best results use a LARGE saucepan so the Onions are spread out and not piled up then cook uncovered very slowly and don't disturb them much. Not moving them around aparently helps the caremalising process. Best thing will be to give this a go.
Ray
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Funny you brought this sauce up today...i had printed that recipe out and was tempted to try it this week myself. But this sauce is very similar to what is used in authentic indian cooking....to make anything with a gravy, like potato or koftas or anything else, we use a sauce just like that one. As you must have noticed, there is no curry powder!
One other thing if I may point put, there is a masala called "Kitchen King" by MDH - apparently it is an all purpose kind of seasoning that many indians I know buy in huge, I mean HUGE, boxes!! The main ingredients seem to be coriander and turmeric as it is yellowish but it looks like coriander powder. I have started using it in almost all my dishes and it adds a great flavor. I know you can get the list of ingredients online at the MDH site. May be worth a try - maybe its like Ray's basaar mix?!!
Back to the "Daag sauce" - the onions must be cooked very slowly with plenty of oil - then they can be cooked 20-30 minutes without being burnt...i do my onions like that for some indian dishes but there must be enough oil. I will post my findings once i make the sauce too but i will make half the quantity - I dont like to freeze things - have too much free time as it is ;D
Payal
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Hi Payal,
Thanks for your input.
It would be good if you could try this "Daag" recipe anyway and post your findings as you are used to this kind of sauce in everyday cooking.
Is Daag a "real name" as I have never seen it printed anywhere except Camelia's book. It is a good idea to use a fair amount of oil as I can see without it the Onions will burn although they do create liquid of their own. The oil can always be strained off afterwards.
I will look up your Kitchen King Masala as the Asian shops round here have some very unusual things that you don't find in all the shops.
If this Masala is bought in such huge quantities ( like the Basaar Mix ) do you know what your Indian friends use it for or what recipes it is used in?
The Basaar Mix is like a very high quality Curry Powder and includes many of the aromatic spices so has a very powerful smell. The only thing I am not keen with it is the amount of Chilli Powder in it ( it is the main ingredient ) so it is a bit too fiery for my taste. However, some Asian friends have said they only use a teaspoon of it in a dish. I can see why!!
Ray
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Hey Ray,
I have never heard of the "daag" recipe name - the only meaning of that word i know is "a spot or mark" like a drop of something making a mark on clothing or something like that.
As for the kitchen king masala, apparently a number of companies make it but the MDH one is rated the best. Other indians use it in almost all their recipes! Some of my mom's friends make what they call "onion sauce" in which they cook down onions and garlic and ginger, tomatos and masalas - just like the daag sauce! They then use that a gravy for most everything - we eat mosty lentils so we dont make such thing - I didnt grow up eating garlic and onions in our indian food - we dont add those things to lentils and veg cooking mostly!
I just bought kitchen king 1 month back and now have started adding it to everything - it has 22 or 23 ingredients in it - the listing can be found at the MDH spices website. It is very fragrant and tasty - the good thing was i didnt find it too spicy and since i dont eat spices at all, that must mean it is pretty bland so you can still use the chillis you normally use. Chili is the 3rd ingredient here.
Payal
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Hi Folks,
I havent tried Cameilias Daag, I did try caramelising onions in the last base I made which was Pete's 600ml oil one.
Payal, does this stuff have MSG in it?
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Of course not :o? MDH is doesnt have those additives - thats why i use all their masalas.? Plus, I get them from India as they are very readily available there for a fraction of the cost ;D
Payal
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Here's the stuff
http://www.e-qualityfoods.co.uk/info.asp?cat=26&product_id=393
Ingredients: Coriander, cumin, chillies, turmeric, pulses, black pepper, salt white, cardamom seeds, dry ginger, fenugreek, nutmeg, cloves, cassia, cinnamon, mace, cardamom, ani seeds, caraway, garlic powder, onion powder, mustard, cardamom green, asafoetida.
Looks like someone emptied their spice cupboard into a mixer! ;D
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I agree with you! There seems to be most all spices in that 1 package!! The MDHspices.com website has the same info on it - just a bit easier to read.
Payal
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Im definately going to get some of this stuff and give it a go.
On a different (on)topic, I was wondering yesterday why most of my curries tend to have a similar taste at the back of them, I smelt an oily smell this morning, whilst microwaving a take away prawn puri for breakfast, that had the BIR smell about it. I wonder if part of the taste is down to the make of oil the BIR's use. Next time im in my asian grocer I will get some of the stuff that they use (as log as I can buy it in less than 5 gallon drums ;D)
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Speaking of oil, do you think the BIR may use a touch of ghee (clarified butter) mixed with the oil to flavor the dishes? It does give a very different taste and maybe BIRs use a touch of it mixed in the oil? When that ghee smokes, it gives off a very different aroma.
Just an idea!
Payal
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I`ve tried vegetable ghee & it didn't seem to make much difference.. but my recipes/methods, have changed allot since then...time for experimentation me thinks....."i think you should go shopping all day darling"..."would hate for you to put up with the smell"!. ;D
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I really admire the dedication you guys put down to the quest for the perfect curry,
with people trying different things out it cuts the experimention time in half
BTW has anyone tried putting an onion tarka into their curry?
An onion tark is like caramelised onions, same principle
slow warming & extracting the starch and sugars to create a sweeter taste.
I put the recip? in the recip? forum
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Hi,
Perhaps we all need to start back into experimenting in these areas again.
I believe this site needs a few more adventurous pioneers to get experimenting a bit more. There are loads of base sauces on this site to chose so why not pick a recipe, let us all know what one your doing, get cracking and post the results!!!
As for Oil most of my local take-away's chuck out 10 gallon drums of the cheapest oil you can get. It's a tenner a drum!!
No sign of Ghee but asian supermarkets around me sell mainly the Vegetable Variety. I haven't tried Butter Ghee as I have seen too many people on intensive care with blocked arteries through Cholesterol overload.
However, I am sure it will add something to the taste but not used much at the B.I.R. I don't think!
I really do think Caramelised Onions might be worth trying more and have some significance in a dish as the more you read the more Caramelising turns up in recipes. I would be surprised if many B.I.R's spend the time to do this, as it would take hours to cook the amounts they would use.
Ray
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I hope to have a bash at caramelized Onions, as i said in another post there is a very distinct smell of Onion much like catering sizes of Maggi French Onion soup powder in my local`s Vindalloo , gotta be using some form of dried Onions, as long as my business ain't to busy i`ll post in the week my finds peeps OK .
DARTH................... ;D
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I agree darth, one night in my local bir when someone elses dishes were being brought out I closed my eyes and focused on the smell, oil, spices and onions was the conclusion I came to
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I have seen the whole process from start to finish. Around 13 years ago, as the guest of a friendly chef, I spent several sessions in the kitchen of a Take-Away. [ Including midnight to 4 am one Friday as they prepared for the weekend.] What I saw agrees in virtually every detail with Curry House Cookery, which is why I have said that everything we need is already on this site. The coincidence is too great for anything to be very wrong.
I can produce a whole range of curries that have convinced everytone I have given them to, BUT I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE. I think my curries are as good as those from most restaurants - they just lack the restaurant smell/ flavour. I have been trying for years to produce this, and have eliminatrd most things. I believe the base sauce is non critical. I have obtained a sample from a restaurant that made no difference to my curries. I have cooked sauce in a 10 litre pot to make sure it isn't quantity. I have bought a 25 litre drum of oil from an Asian grocer - no difference.
I know that my methods, in the hands of a BIR chef can produce a first rate curry, so what am I doing wrong? I had settled into a[ pleasant] rut with my curries, but this discussion got me thinking again. I think the answer lies in the end process, the method of fryin the spices, maybe.something the restaurant chef does automatically, and we dont notice. I have some ideas in this department, so I'll just keep trying, and report back.
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I believe the base sauce is non critical
I was going to do a poll as to whether people believe the missing taste and smell is a consequence of the base sauce or something added in when making the finished curry. The problem is it doesn't allow for explanations, which I think are more important in a discussion forum.
So where does your vote lie people? Do you think the 'secret' is in the base sauce or in the making of the curry?? Or, perhaps, is it a bit of both? (I really hope it isn't this!)
Only answer if you are prepared to offer some reason for your decision please.
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I reckon the secret lies in the finished dish. I think evaporation of the base is a key factor although something else is missing.
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The restaurant flavour can be present in dishes that dont use the base sauce, such as some versions of rogan josh, tomato puree based chilli masala, even some dalls. So I think the ' magic' happens at the end. The sauce just needs to be a savoury veg 'soup' with oil so that the ground spices dont make it pasty. Incidentally, I have tried making curry sauce without the oil and it was completely inedible.
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? ? I have seen the whole process from start to finish. Around 13 years ago, as the guest of a friendly chef, I spent several sessions in the kitchen of a Take-Away. [ Including midnight to 4 am one Friday as they prepared for the weekend.
Now I'm really jealous!
I have watched them cooking the curries too
There really seems to be nothing remarkable happening
The order in the pan:-
Oil an a little curry gravy
Simmer a minute
Add a good slop of garlic ginger puree
Simmer a minute
A desertspoon of spice
Stir and simmer a minute
Main pre cooked ingredients
Heat three minutes while stirring
Add dried fenugreek and fresh coriander
Bit more curry gravy
Wack the heat up for two minutes
Put in carton
I don't believe anything is hidden
I thought that the kitchens smokey flavours were getting in the curry gravy so I tried an experiment
I got my pot of curry gravy and put it in my oven
I then cooked chicken tikka, and also roasted some garlic, in the oven too
The result?
The curry gravy had not changed!
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I was checking out recipeson the internet and a came across a version of a spice I had never heard of
It's called "smoked paprika"
We want a smokey taste and restaurants do use paprika
Anyone know anything about this?
http://www.tienda.com/food/pop/pk-03.html
and
http://www.sambavaspices.com/chillies/smokedpaprika.htm
Check it out
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Yeah Ive got some, tesco sell it, I havent tried it in curries yet
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Someone here tried using smoked paprika (can't remember who) - they said it didn't work at all
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It was me!:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=252.0
If it's the same stuff, it's also called pimenton. It's oak-smoked paprika. It just ruined the base.
Part of the problem I think (and certainly it's a trap that I fall into) is that - for instance - in trying to describe the X factor in BIRs I'll come up with descriptions like 'smokey' or 'toffee-ish'. And then I'll take it too literally, so I'll add something smokey to the dish - pimenton, barbequed onions, whatever. But in reality, it's not the actual taste or smell of smoke or toffee at all. Just something along those lines.
I'm starting to think now that it's not one special, secret 'hidden' ingredient. It's so unlikely that one of us wouldn't have stumbled across it by now, with all the collective wading through spices and ingredients and recipes we've all done over the years.
It might be a combination of things, mixing together to create 'that smell/taste'. Like the way you mix two colours to get a third. It might be sheer technique. But I am puzzled as to why all the demos and first hand info from chefs haven't yielded consistent, powerfully 'right' results.
And let's face it - it's so much more tempting to think there is a single, missing ingredient - 'cos then all we'd have to do is find it!
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I now think the missing taste is something that is unique to all types of? restaurant cooking in general and is very hard to reproduce at home.? Restaurants use intense heat and well-seasoned, well-used pans, which contribute so much to the flavour of any food, and then the food? is cooked as quickly as possible. All food tastes different from home cooking when it's been cooked in a restaurant kitchen.
Here's some interesting thoughts on chinese food, from people who are having the same trouble as we are, and an exerpt from a book that explains the meaning of 'wok hay'.? (yes I know it's chinese food and not indian, but bear with me, I think it's very relevant to our quest and well worth a read!).
(from a private forum):
"I've eaten and made fried rice for years. But there is always something missing between homemade and restaurant. I don't know what it is, but there is this smokey flavor that ALL restaurant fried rice has that I cannot duplicate at home. It just has more flavor. I think it might be because the restaurant wok is a)super hot and b)very seasoned."
"Chinese people call it "wok-hay"; you're completely right, it's the intense heat + seasoned iron/carbon steel that creates it. I can't duplicate it with my grandmother's beat up seasoned wok because I have a pitiful 8500 BTU stove burner. However, that doesn't mean that homemade fried rice tastes worse, it's just inferior."
Wok Hay - The Breath of a Wok
My father taught me early in life that there is nothing quite as delicious as the rich, concentrated flavors of a Cantonese stir-fry, in which morsels of meat are cooked just quickly enough to ensure their juicy succulence and vegetables are rendered crisp and refreshing. It is a far cry from the oily, overcooked, heavily sauced renditions to which most Americans are accustomed.
In Hong Kong and Guangzhou, the stir-fry is a culinary art form. Nowhere else in the world are stir-fries scrutinized by both professional chefs and ordinary people with identical criteria: Does the stir-fry possess the prized, sublime taste of wok hay? Discerning Cantonese consider a stir-fry without wok hay to be like bad wine, dead and flat.
I think of wok hay as the breath of a wok - when a wok breathes energy into a stir-fry, giving foods a unique concentrated flavor and aroma. Of course, the Cantonese definition of wok hay varies from cook to cook. Many chefs will immediately talk about controlling the fo hao, fire power, for only the correct intense heat combined with a short cooking time elicits the heung mei, the fragrant aroma that characterizes wok hay. "A wok must be very hot for stir-fries to have the grilled, smoky flavor that is so distinctive of wok hay," says Chinese cooking authority Ken Hom. "A well-seasoned carbon-steel wok is also essential for creating wok hay- the blacker the pan, the more intense the wok hay flavor."
Some cooks define wok hay as the "taste of the wok." Other cooks describe wok hay in near poetic terms. My friend Vivien Cheung says, "Wok hay is both elusive and real." She speculates that it has to do with the design of the wok. "I imagine the wok to be like a volcano. Stir-frying on high heat incorporates hot air and motion, releasing a prized essence into the food. In a skillet that essence is all dissipated." Hong Kong heritage researcher Nevin Lim thinks wok hay is a harmony of taste. "When the Cantonese stir-fry garlic and spinach, they use the garlic to remove the raw taste of spinach. With good wok hay you will not taste the harsh flavor of garlic. Instead, the two ingredients combine to create a harmony of taste," says Lim.
In Hong Kong, where people tend to be very superstitious, wok hay is so coveted that "when a customer is served a stir-fry void of wok hay, it is often interpreted as an ominous sign of bad luck," says Chief Instructor Chef Ronald Shao, of the Chinese Cuisine Training Institute in Hong Kong. No investments or wagers should be made on such an inauspicious day. My own family is no exception in their reverence for wok hay. My eighty-nine-year-old father has celebrated his birthday with dinner at Lichee Garden restaurant in San Francisco for over twenty years because of his admiration for Chef Siu Chah Lung's stir-fries. Baba relishes the intensity of wok hay in every stir-fry-for him it is an auspicious symbol of vitality and life. According to Chef Siu, "Wok hay makes the food powerful and strong."
The concept of wok hay is so ingrained in my own knowledge of food that I assumed the term was known by all Chinese. But wok hay is a strictly Cantonese expression. The cooking vessel that the Cantonese call a wok is, in fact, called guo in Mandarin. Neither the word nor the characters are the same. I showed the wok hay characters to countless people during my travels throughout China. The wok character refers to the pan; the hay character (known as chi or qi in Mandarin) means "energy" or "breath." Culinary professionals were often familiar with the expression, but the average non-Cantonese person had no idea how to read the wok character, and those who could often looked at me in bafflement, wondering what wok energy or breath could possibly mean. I even searched for wok hay in a Chinese dictionary, but because it is so particular to the Cantonese dialect, it was not there."
In China, only the Cantonese stress the importance of wok hay in a stir-fry," says legendary Chinese food expert Florence Lin. "The Cantonese superiority at stir-frying is well known." Lin, a native of Ningbo, near Shanghai, explains that when cooks of her region stir-fry, it is often done slowly in a medium - hot wok to accentuate texture instead of wok hay. It was Lin who first explained to me that Cantonese weather - hot and humid throughout the year - prompted the Cantonese style of stir-frying. "In the summer months when temperatures can climb to well over a hundred degrees Fahrenheit, no one wants to stand in front of a stove longer than necessary." She points out that in northern China, where there is a cold season, one finds more braises and slow-cooking stews. In the old days in Guangzhou, without refrigeration a stew could easily spoil from the afternoon until evening.
In addition, Lin explains, because Guangzhou's growing season was longer, chefs had a richer selection of fresh produce, and proximity to the water provided a wealth of seafood. Cantonese chefs discovered that their style of stir-frying imparted a distinct wok flavor or wok hay while retaining the integrity of the ingredients.
Walking through the open-air markets of Guangzhou, I am always astounded by the quality of local produce. Fruits and vegetables have the sheen and fragrance found only in just-harvested crops. I watch a fishmonger net a swimming rock cod from a tank and place it on his cutting board, where he calmly fillets the live fish for a waiting customer. When ingredients are stir-fried at their peak flavor and texture, they deliver a true experience of wok hay.
Even though my stove at home cannot produce the fierce heat of a restaurant stove, I have nevertheless found ways to achieve wok hay. For example, I seek the freshest possible seasonal vegetables, such as Chinese broccoli in the winter or asparagus in the spring. I know if the produce is not at its peak ripeness, my stir-fry will have neither depth of flavor nor wok hay.
Standing at the stove, I reach for my well-seasoned flat-bottomed carbon-steel wok, which sits closer to the flame. I cut my ingredients into uniform, small sizes, to ensure even cooking. I begin to heat the wok.
Many chefs taught me that wok hay is achieved only by adding cold oil to a hot wok. Heating the wok to the point of faint smoking before adding oil prevents food from sticking to the pan. If the wok is hot, the cold oil will dance or ripple on the surface. More important, "The cold oil functions to cool down the wok slightly and thus makes food more tender," says Chef Poon Chi Cheung of the Spring Moon restaurant in Hong Kong. According to Chef Poon, if the oil is heated in a cold wok, wok hay will not be achieved; ingredients will stick and burn, while remaining raw inside. Chef Martin Yan compares the stir-fry technique of hot wok-cold oil to working with a barbecue grill. "If food is put on a cold grill, it's guaranteed to stick."
Chinese cooking authority Ken Hom believes that properly heating the wok is critical for achieving wok hay. "Cooks who are unaccustomed to stir-frying never get the wok hot enough. It's the biggest obstacle to overcome," explains Hom.
When I stir-fry, I judge the heat by placing the palm of my hand about 2 inches above the wok's surface until I feel a warmth similar to that of a hot radiator. At this point the wok also gives off a wisp of smoke, and a bead of water will evaporate within 1 to 2 seconds of contact. I swirl in the oil while rotating the wok to spread the oil across the bottom. When the wok is hot enough, the aromatics I add will sizzle. "We cook by sound," says Chef Ming Tsai. "If the wok is hot enough, you will have a sizzling sound at all times."
Once the stir-frying begins, my challenge is to protect the wok's heat from dropping too drastically and sacrificing the wok hay. When a wok is not scorching hot, food cannot be seared and a stir-fry becomes watery. A wet or soggy ingredient can also lower the heat in the wok to a degree that makes the quick searing action of the stir-fry impossible to achieve. I always wash greens and then dry them thoroughly in a salad spinner. I remember my mother washing her vegetables early in the morning, so that they could drain in the open air until dry to the touch.
While I admire restaurant chefs' expertise, some of their techniques do not make sense for the home cook. For example, restaurant chefs frequently oil-blanch ingredients for a stir-fry. This means that the ingredients are deep-fried for a few seconds before they are used in a stir-fry. At home oil blanching is unnecessary and impractical. Without it, stir-fries taste even lighter and fresher than those cooked in restaurants. When Chinese chefs stir-fry they use a cooking technique called pao, which requires jerking the wok in a small circular motion to toss the food, ensuring that everything cooks evenly. This, too, is impractical at home because it cools down the wok. I like to alternate between jerking the wok back and forth on the burner and using a metal spatula to keep the ingredients in constant motion.
On a home range, too much food in the wok reduces the temperature, changing any quick stir-fry into a slow braise. I never stir-fry more than12 ounces of meat or a pound of chicken in a 14-inch wok. Any more than this and meat turns foamy gray within seconds, releasing its juices, crowding the wok, and making it impossible to sear. I also spread the meat around the wok to prevent any pieces from clumping together and losing contact with the wok's hot surface. I resist the temptation to touch the meat for 20 seconds to 1 minute. This is critical because it allows the meat to sear, intensifying the flavors so distinctive to wok hay. After that I stir-fry the meat with a spatula 10 to 15 seconds, spread it again in the wok, allow it to sear for 30 seconds, and then stir-fry it again.
I stir-fry no more than 3 to 4 cups of vegetables at a time; with larger quantities vegetables on the bottom scorch while those on the top remain uncooked, again forcing the wok's temperature to drop. Vegetables can be briskly stirred with a spatula the moment they are added to a wok. With good wok hay, vegetables have a crisp texture the Cantonese call song, highly valued in Chinese cooking. A stir-fry's wok hay must be relished the moment it is cooked, before the elusive vital essence dissipates (similar in a way to a souffle). I always serve my stir-fries immediately. A classic Cantonese stir-fry confers a special eating experience, and like my father and countless Chinese I covet a stir-fry that possesses the rarified taste of wok hay - cherishing the sublime pleasure such a culinary wonder offers.
Copyright 2004. Graceyoung.com.
http://www.graceyoung.com/excerptsBreath.html
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Nessa
That's very interesting, thank you. I've always thought we should keep the flame on full blast, like the BIR kitchens do, for a start.
Regards
George
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Really good read, thanks Nessa
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That was a fascinating read
The high heat is definitely correct, but the pans I have seen used, in Indian restaurants, are not visibly seasoned like a wok.
They are "skillets" are in fairly clean condition
If I am cooking several meals, I do find that when the pan is a little dirty and I am starting a new curry, there is a better aroma
I think it also makes a better curry
Do the restaurant pans have a thick or thin base?
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On a second read of the Grace Young article, I can't help wondering if "The Breath of a Wok" and 'wok hay' is some sort of wind-up. Books like this will stand out from a crowd and will be bought by people clutching at straws, like Feng Shui for rooms and over-priced loudspeaker cables which contain (or is it omit) a certain type of oxygen molecule for your hi-fi system.
Regards
George
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I've cooked all day
I made my some brilliant pillau rice
I made my best curry base (chef recipe on this site)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=14.0
But I modified it, similar to the 100 baltis idea
But also like the chicken jelly idea too
When I had the onions boiling I added a portion of raw chicken
I removed it before blending
The base turned out really well
I had no intention to cook a curry straight away, but I got enthusiastic.
I used all the information I had learnt from demos, books and this site
Really hot oil
Flambed it
Good restaurant spice mix
Carefull to not burn spices
Excellent curry base
Not too much fenugreek
A little salt
A pinch of ground coriander and ground cummin near the end
It was a vindaloo
Very good
But damn it, is still misses that special aroma
Maybe I'm too spiced out
But I bet if I had a bought curry, I could smell the aroma on that
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I can't help wondering if "The Breath of a Wok" and 'wok hay' is some sort of wind-up
That's a bit disingenuous George. Wok Hei, or wok hay as they call it, is perhaps a little mysterious? only because restaurant chefs are able to achieve it and we can't. Now where have I heard that before? But in essence it's just super high heat applied to the wok and consideration about how ingredients are added to the wok.
I answered someone elses question a while ago about not achieving the chinese restaurant taste and I think I said it can't be done, for some dishes, and it really can't, not at home anyhow. If you've never seen the burners used at a chinese restaurant, they are usually a hole in the top of a range into which the wok fits while cooking. The heat from these puts the curry house burners to shame, they must be throwing out at least four times that much heat.
Another person asked why they couldn't get their noodles like the restaurant one's. I was going to reply, quoting the wok hei technique, but I knew I wouldn't be believed. Either that or the person would try it out on their biggest gas burner and still fail, because it still wouldn't be big enough and then conclude that my advice was wrong, so I never answered.
So in conclusion Wok Hei is not a myth just to sell books and you will never achieve it at home, thereby lending unfounded evidence I suppose to those that don't believe in it.
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Hi Yellow Fingers
So was my curry not quite right because I don't cook hot enough?
I think Mark J has a pretty intense heat cooker
Mind you, I think he is pretty happy with what he achieves
(Hi Mark!)
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But I modified it, similar to the 100 baltis idea
But also like the chicken jelly idea too
When I had the onions boiling I added a portion of raw chicken
Hi Pete, do you mean you used raw chicken and some chicken jelly? Also where do you stand now on the chicken stock in the base question, do you think the restaurants do this?
A pinch of ground coriander and ground cummin near the end
That's new, why did you do it this way?
Maybe I'm too spiced out
But I bet if I had a bought curry, I could smell the aroma on that
Exactly, yet another good test of the unique curry house curry 'smell'
It's good to see someone making progress. Is your pilau recipe already on the site?
Oh blimey, you typed more while I was typing this!? ?:P
So was my curry not quite right because I don't cook hot enough?
I don't have a restaurant style/size burner so I can't categorically say yes or no. However I think the Indian restaurants only use high heat all the way through purely to get it cooked quickly. High heat isn't generally used in 'traditional' Indian cookery.
Any benefits, be it taste or smell, that accrue from using a high heat are incidental but it's clearly one link in the chain that should not be left out. Perhaps you could try your new best vindaloo on a friends wok burner if they have one?
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The closest ive come to a restaurant flavour (and it did smell exactly like restaurants produce) although i cant garantee about that special flavour as im not convinced we are thinking along the same scent trials
But, this was by accident, i managed to cook a Kris Dhillion base with almost half the amount of water suggested, ie, i used 1 litre of water for the base. The only other addition was the advice that curry houses finely grind their spices until they are powder and NO grains can be felt between the fingers..(min 2 minutes) otherwise i used Curry Masala recipe instead of the Garam Masala http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=491.0
I might have used some bottled ginger paste instead of fresh ginger but i cant believe it makes much difference
I usually use a 4 litre saucepan with a lid for the onion mixture, a 4 liter for the tomato and paprika mixture without lid and when i mix the 2 i usually dont put the lid on either as it needs to be skimmed.
Usually i use the balti recipe in the Curry Secret book and maybe make sure the sauce is nicely reduced on a low heat towards the end as this intensifys the flavours. The Coriander and Cumin seeds as roasted and ground seperately the fresh Coriander is chopped finely and added in the last 2-4 minutes
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Mind you, I think he is pretty happy with what he achieves
(Hi Mark!)
Hi Pete? ;D
I thought I was until last weekend, distinctly average curry, I think I overdid the methi. Its that smell and taste, very elusive!
I've got a 5 ring hob and the centre one is a 3.3 kw wok burner which I use for curries and a steel wok. It gets hot but its still not the same as a BIR range, my flames are thin pencil like and blue, theirs are still blue but there is just loads more flame, on high it completely envelops the frying pan they use, even going up the sides slightly.
Heres mine : http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=388.0
YF, Petes pillau rice is awesome, Its the only recipe that consistantly lets me get near reataurant quality pillau rice: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=396.0
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The closest ive come to a restaurant flavour (and it did smell exactly like restaurants produce
Hi Ashes,
Hmm, very interesting. I'm still a fan of the kris Dhillon base myself, despite its simplicity. I think she spoils the curries by the use of garam masala though so substitution of your curry masala sounds good.
Is this a fair summary of your method?
Use double strength Dhillon base (because you used half water)
Use the balti recipe as per the book but use roasted/ground coriander and cumin
replace garam with your masala mix (same quantity as dhillon recipe?)
reduce the curry for a bit at the end to intensify flavour
add chopped coriander into the curry itself (not sprinkled on top?)
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I can't help wondering if "The Breath of a Wok" and 'wok hay' is some sort of wind-up
Wok Hei, or wok hay as they call it, is perhaps a little mysterious only because restaurant chefs are able to achieve it and we can't. Now where have I heard that before?
You make some good points and, in particular, I've always thought it made sense to copy BIR cooking technique as far as we can, including sky high heat for most 'stage 2' cooking. My doubt about wok hay was more to do with the idea that the pan coating can have much of an impact on the taste. But perhaps it does.
Regards
George
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Yes YF
I dont usually use 1 litre of water i try to use the recommended amount
but maybe slightly less water improves over slightly too much.
The techiques are as in the book. Start off with high heat on the base sauce
this reduces the sauce quite quickly.add a bit of salt,chilli-powder and chillies
this is for flavour and heat.
Then the sauce gets to a point where you need to add the meat after maybe
5-10 minutes - depends on how high your can fry at. Marks got a great
setup (lucky ?#""#?") ;) so he can reduce sauces quicker than me.
Then add the precooked meat and reduce the heat to medium
Add the spices make sure they are cooked through but not so
high as to burn them, not so low as they wont be cooked
Then allow the sauce to simmer gently
The whole process takes around 20 mins,
sauce reduces for about 5-10 (depends on how much your making)
the meat reduces the heat level so the heat needs to rise again
the spices are thrown in on medium heat
and left to cook through for 5 mins
the sauce is left on low heat until the oil starts to make it seperate
then it depends how thick you like your curries
The Curry Masala recipe hasnt many of the aromatics
of the normal Garam Masalas so it makes a less
sweeter version and a more savoury curry which i prefer
Ive never had a sucessful version with shop bought GM.
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Time to dust off the curry secret again!
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Tell you what Mark, give me your great cooker and il give you my Curry Secret for free :P
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Hi Pete, do you mean you used raw chicken and some chicken jelly? Also where do you stand now on the chicken stock in the base question, do you think the restaurants do this?
I just used raw chicken
The jelly takes so long to make
And yes,I do think some curry houses do this
A pinch of ground coriander and ground cummin near the end
That's new, why did you do it this way?
I have seen this done in two restaurant kitchens
A couple of minutes before the end of cooking, they add half a tespoon of a coriander/cummin mix
You can buy this prepacked
I'm not sure if it's made by Rajah or East End
it did smell exactly like restaurants produce
Usually i use the balti recipe
The only test for this aroma is to have a bought restaurant curry to compare with
It's very deceptive
It was last week that I realised the "gap" in my results
I had frozen my curries and also a restaurant one
A sniff from each carton crushed me
A massive difference
The balti recipe does the precooked onion and peppers
Some of my most successful curries have been doing this
Did you serve the balti in the balti bowls or just on a plate?
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Hi Pete,
if i remember i think i used frozen chicken breasts partially defrosted and if the base sauce
has been reduced enough so as not to be too wet the chicken cooks well
if the sauce is too wet the chicken boils and becomes stringy.
The spices were roasted and then left to cool (sometimes you can use the fridge)
Then they were ground using a spice grinder for about 1.5 - 2 minutes
so they were like dust almost, im sure this helped to create the nice flavour
I might have added dried methi (not sure on that one).
The curry was really good but there was some left over so it went into the fridge
and the day after the smell hit me, very strong complicated spicey smell that
you get in indian restaurants, also i might have added some black pepper corns
as ive tried to replicate a curry i had a while ago at a restaurant and was
facinated by how they got that black pepper taste ( it worked)
Quote from Kris Dhillion?s Curry Secret (read somewhere that shes a woman)
Restaurants do not generally use spices in their whole form...
They buy them whole and grind small qualities at a time for the
best flavour.....
An electric coffee grinder is ideal.. it grinds them to the fineness required
for restaurant curries.....
the degree of fineness is not particularly important for home curries
but the restaurant chef is meticulous in this requirement
and will test the spices between forefinger and thumb
being on satified when the mixture is perfectly smooth
Also I like balti bowls and have used them for years and years
but my wife always eats her curries with rice and raita
I always eat mine with nans or chappatis
so we either use plates or those metal trays which are
divided into dishes.
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I don't believe there is a secret ingredient in BIR curries. I think maybe it's like home-made chips don't taste the same as the ones from the Chippy (or at least mine don't). I've also tried to replicate the flavour and aroma of Char Sui (Cantonese Roast Pork) by trying various recipes - which have all turned out well - but not the same as from the takeaway, there's always "something" lacking.
Maybe it is Wok Hay as Nessa suggested. So, for me it's back to the drawing board*, I quite enjoy the experimentation and after all,
if we all knew the "secret" there wouldn't be any need for a wonderful website like this one. I'd just like to thank all those people who post their recipes and suggestions so freely for us all to try.
Cheers, Owen.
* Or should that be back to the Takeaway:-)
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I just made a curry base but halved the quantities that I usually make
One important thing became apparent
It lacked the depth of flavour and aroma that the full version has
That really makes me wonder again about how scalable these recipes are
The amounts we work in, need to be so precise
There is almost a zero margin of error
Half a teaspoon of spice, in our curry gravies, can make or break it
I am still trying to recreate two brilliant curries I made last year
Consistancy is so very hard
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hi guys & girls
rang for takeaway @ Rajver on thursday night and asked to see my vindaloo being cooked ( i last saw my vind being cooked in the same kitchen by a different chef in april which i posted )(although i had no one say they followed the recipes posted....but that another bitter story ;)) anyway back to thursday night i was told to arrive about 8 o'clock. i was invited into the kitchen and sat on a small stool whilst ....... :)(sorry guys/ girls that's another posting.) but my reason for posting is that i tasted the base sauce..... i said i tasted the base sauce :) well it was a bit on the bland side and the funny thing it reminded me of do you know ? you'll never guess.... Kris Dhillons minus the gingery undertone that i found with her sauce. so i do not believe i have said before there is no secret ingredient in the curry base. anyway for the story of my visit to rajver, the techinque, and the recipe for a stonking good hot vindaloo please watch for new posts soon. i will also tell you what i did lastnight with 1/2 microwave tub of watered down Rajver onion gravy(posted). to coin a phrase "oh..... my..... god.....!
regards
gary
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lol great post..
every day in every way we?re getting a little bit closer ;D
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Gary
Thanks for reporting your base sauce tasting. I think this is one of the most persuasive accounts at this forum so far, in that I assume you tasted the base sauce for your curry, and presumably for other customers curries, whilst you were there, with no scope for any cover-up, substitution or anything. It also fits my gut feel that the base sauce must be fairly bland to go with everything from a korma to a phall. Base sauce chapter closed, I would say. Let's move on...
Regards
George
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Gary, have you had a chance to write up that vindaloo recipe ... sounds interesting
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Yes Gary Woodpecker,
Please write this up as I, and many others, are very keen to read it
I am in the stages of getting the bits and bobs, to make a curry tonight.
I am trying to match what I make,to a bought one
I am using the Kris Dhillon base (made with extra oil which I scoop off for frying with)
I couldn't resist a taste of my base and the takeaway curry
I can definitely say, that Kris's base, is part of the flavour and smell of the bought curry
So I have really gone round in a full circle
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Kris Dhillions base seems to fit in with how a curry house might make a base sauce,
as its very neutral, and would fit in with every curry without dominating a particular
taste outside onion garlic ginger ect.
The interesting thing is the frying of the spices in the tomatoes
If you have ever tried to skip straight to to adding the spices
and tomatoes at the start of onion/garlic/ginger mixture then youll
find it comes out very weak indeed.
If you follow this conclusion, then using less water in the onion mixture
and frying the tomato mixture longer would make a more concertrated
taste. You could add more water later
This might make a tastier base sauce?
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I've just polished off a fantastic chicken madras made from a Kris Dillon base today and I've got to say it was great. I hit patches of the taste in the final dish. I'm sure we're nearly there - mind you I've said that before :)
Here's what I used in the final dish
3 tbl oil
1 tbl pre cooked turmeric onion
1 tbl tomato paste (will use ketchup next time)
1 lvl tsp salt
1 tsp Rajah curry powder
pinch garamasala
pinch methi
3 tsp chilli powder
1 tsp fresh coriander
(ran out of green chillis but would add these next time)
3 ladels of Kris Dillon curry gravy
pre cooked Chicken (10 min boiled version)
2 x 1/4 tomatoes
1 tsp lemon juice
1) Heat oil, add pre cooked onions
2) add everything upto the base sauce and stir for 30 secs (added water to stop sticking)
3) add 1 ladle of base
4) add pre cooked chicken, stir for 1 min
5) added 2 ladels of base, tomatoes, lemon juice, cook for 5 mins. Leave it to stand for 5 mins
here's a picture of the pre-cooked onions (cooled down). They taste nice.
I heated 4 tbl oil, added 2 tsp turmeric and cook for 30 secs and added 6 small onions finely chopped. Turn down to med-low and cook for 30 mins.
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Great description Blade
Nice shot of the onions too!
The ones I saw in the curry house were not as bright as those
But I bet that's because they were older
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There is ABSOLUTELY NOT a secret ingredient in the base sauce.
The magic comes AFTER.
Any of the sauces commonly used on this site will suffice.
Personally, I would like to see a decent number of us commit to using just one (I'd go with Dhillion) from now on, and sticking with it. The variables are elsewhere, and the way everyone is fussing over the base sauce makes it that much harder for us all to concentrate on the DISH COOKING, which is where it's all at.
This is the TRUTH people, seriously.
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The variables are elsewhere, and the way everyone is fussing over the base sauce makes it that much harder for us all to concentrate on the DISH COOKING, which is where it's all at.
This is the TRUTH people, seriously.
I agree with what your saying, its down to the final dish, the early stages of frying the spices and puree's in the oil. I don't agree with the using the Dhillion base though, I recently went back to it as a test and it doesn't work for me at all. I know people have had some succsess with it but I don't think its right, for one the extra hassle of 2 parts, I can't see a restaurant messing about like that when time is money. Also the stench of it, that lovely aroma we all talk about that wafts down the street certainly isn't coming from a big vat of Dhillion base on the go ::)
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There is ABSOLUTELY NOT a secret ingredient in the base sauce.
The magic comes AFTER.
Any of the sauces commonly used on this site will suffice.
Personally, I would like to see a decent number of us commit to using just one (I'd go with Dhillion) from now on, and sticking with it. The variables are elsewhere, and the way everyone is fussing over the base sauce makes it that much harder for us all to concentrate on the DISH COOKING, which is where it's all at.
This is the TRUTH people, seriously.
I agree ONE HUNDRED PER CENT. Thomashenry, do you know more than you are letting on by any chance??
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I don't know if this has been done bofore....An experiment: Get somebody to cook a curry from the Dhillon sauce and one from Edwards and maybe one from Chapman. Also have a curry present from a decent Indian restaurant. Have a few 'guinea pigs' who are into their curries taste to see if they can work out 1. Which is from the restauratn 2. Order of preference. It might even transpire that the participants correctly identify the restaurant curry but prefer another. Who knows? I sometimes think that there is too much made of this secret ingredient and think it it more to do with the fact that somebody else has cooked it and presentation etc I also think that freshness of spices and quantities must have a big part to play......
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? Who knows?? I sometimes think that there is too much made of this secret ingredient and think it it more to do with the fact that somebody else has cooked it and presentation etc? I also think that freshness of spices and quantities must have a big part to play......
Agreed!
I made a curry the other day using Petes base sauce and a recipe for chicken chili massala (sorry dont remember who posted it) and it was wonderful. No it didnt taste spot on the same as my local curry house, but as I had cooked it, I knew the ingredients were fresh, nothing had been stood around in a warm kitchen, there were no additives etc. I got a real pleasure from eating it after spending so long preparing it, thats gotta be worth one over on the resturaunt curry hasnt it? Lol probably not, but I wont lose any sleep over it not being spot on :-)
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Hi Angelina,
Did you get someone else to try your curry? Always a good test is to have another curry lover sample your currys.
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Hi Angelina,
Did you get someone else to try your curry?? Always a good test is to have another curry lover sample your currys.
Yes my partner and son had some too. My partner said that he thought it was identical in looks to a curry house one. He thought it was lovely, but cant understand why i'd want it to taste identical!!!!
I used extra oil and skimmed off to save for the actual curry. As soon as I poured it into the warm pan, I knew this was a very important stage. This is the way to go for me from now on.
Looking forward to trying some other recipes, I have about four portions of Pete's base left and im undecided yet on whether to try the KD one, think i'll wait for more reports......
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I used extra oil and skimmed off to save for the actual curry.? As soon as I poured it into the warm pan, I knew this was a very important stage.?
The aroma of this reheated spiced oil is amazing
This part I know is right
At most of the demos this is the predominant smell.
That, and also when, they add the curry powder
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Pete, At last some are taking on board that the use of extra oil when making the gravy and skimming it off when it is cooked is the way to go! I can't believe that it has taken this long for people to take the initiative to find this out. As soon as you start a curry with this oil then you know it is right, and, of course, if you keep reusing it the smell/aroma intensifies even more. Thankyou Angelina for taking the time to listen.
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As soon as you start a curry with this oil then you know it is right, and, of course, if you keep reusing it the smell/aroma intensifies even more.
I shall be using old oil in the next KD base
I'll probably have to use new oil too, but I reckon a restaurant wouldn't throw away any oil left over.
I saw one place using the oil from the deep pan fryer
If you'd use that, what wouldn't you use?
I shall post the results
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Thats a very interesting point! I reuse the oil in cooking after deep frying one time. I use it in all my indian dishes because I was told not to deep fry with the same oil again. The flavor is great! it really adds depth to the dish I am cooking - especially when I have deep fried some onion pakodas and the such with the oil!!
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Thats a good point, there are other dishes that use oil, like pakora.
This oil could easily be returned to a common pot to be used for curries.
If you check out the Balti recipes in "The Curry Secret", you?ll see that
they chop bell peppers and onions and deep fry them and then add
them to the curry at the end. I?ve used the oil from deep fried onions
and peppers and it smells great (although it means frying them in advance)
Although I?m not convinced it added much to my curry, but
fried large quantities of onion and peppers would definately make a difference.
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Hi All,
Noticed in one of our local asian shops that not only was there tomato puree on the shelf but next to it was a tin of tomato paste it was made by EUROFOODS a company in my home town Newport Wales.I read ingredients on the tin and there were slight differences but what did surprise me was the tin was about the size of a large tin of potatoes,i dont know if this suggests more useage of this product against puree or not.
keep up the good work
steve e
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Hi Steve e
they definitely use tins
I had another look around my local Asian shop, trying to find the tomato paste, I cooked with last time.
It wasn't there but there were loads of italian (almost pizza tomato base) tins.
I've just bought an Asda jar of tomato paste
I'll post if it's any good
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Yo Dudes,
My thought is (and i know its been said before) is that it is recycled oil from previous dishes. Now I don't think this is the end of it either since all the oil does is carry flavour from previous dishes. The flavour has to be there to start with BUT... I do think those flavours mellow with heat and time. The reason I suspect these things is manifold one being this: ever walk past an asian takeaway joint and wonder how those places get to smelling like the do? I rekon it's the repeatedly reaheated oil that has little bits of everything floating in it such as little bits of pastry from wantons and spring rolls etc plus all the flavours from these foods have leached into the oil and mellowd over time. I suspect the same thing happens with indian spices and other ingredients mellowing in hot oil over time. now the other important reason was this: one time I was carefully watching an indian chef cook my dinner and I saw him do something remarkable but thought nothing of it at the time. He would skim off excess oil (which also had a tiny bit of my meal in it) from my dish and put it into the little plastic container in front of him. This is the same little plastic container he originally dipped into to add oil to MY meal at the begging of making my madras and he also started the next dish (after mine) with this same oil. So in this restaraunt, the oil going into each dish had been, at some time, been in a whole miriad of other dishes and possibly in the onion sauce and red sauce pots as well. This would lead one to presume that this is where the secret is coming from and why the flavour is so difficult to acheive at home. But the recipe methodology and ingredients have to be there to begin with. All this theory is doing is taking the emphasis off this silly idea of a secret ingredient. I hope this is of some use to someone. my sugestion to anyone trying to prove my hypothesis, is to take a little bit of oil from every dish you make say a tablespoon or two per every serving and add it to the next dish you make and from that dish add a bit to the next dish and so on and so forth ; ) The secret could be this tiny taste of a hundred sucsessive curries!!! YUM thats gotta help
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I've lost count of the number of times this has been reported
But it's alot
I think we can take this practice as almost standard, though no chef would admit it.
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Chefs will not admit this become health reasons, also a chef will tell you how to make a curry but not what the so called "secret ingredient" is, probably because they don?t know themselves. It does seem to be the by-product of reused oil. The only mystery is, how do you reuse oil from a vindaloo and a phal, the heat level would ruin the oil for the next mild curry. Or would it? Has anyone tried this yet?
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The practise of re-using oil is widespread, mainly I think for economic reasons. Personally, I don't think its vital to the taste of the dish. The oil doesn't relaly seem to carry much flavour, just piquancy.
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I disagree TH, I think the spiced oil is key to both taste and flavour, Ive recently cracked this whole thing to my mind and will post later on the subject
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I disagree TH, I think the spiced oil is key to both taste and flavour, Ive recently cracked this whole thing to my mind and will post later on the subject
Come on don't keep us in suspense ;D
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I managed to get a really large sample of the curry gravy again.
Viewed from the side of the takeaway carton there is a quarter of an inch of oil.
The oil smells just like the "cracked it" post by Mark J
It tastes very nice
Sweet, oily, fried oniony, a little spicey (but no particular spice), quite KD base like.
Very good on it's own
The main point though, is that it already has the "taste"
I will cook with some at the weekend
You couldn't fail with this stuff
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My two cents worth ...
Has anyone succeeded in asking/bribing a restaurant to let them see the whole process?
My guess would have been ketchup, or ketchup and vinegar. Available since the fifties, cheap, uniform taste, basis of quick and easy, cheap sweet and sour sauce.
Or it's MSG. It's been around since 1909!! Would be a good reason for a uniform taste.
Or if it's not ONE product, it's many products mixed together, right?
Or it's in the pots and pans. Ever noticed if you do the same dish in the same pan the "smell that never leaves" get strong and stronger. Add re-used oil and who knows???
Stupid question perhaps but where does your average restaurant buy its wholesale goods? Maybe try looking there?
DD
I have to say though that the BIR recipes I've done have been pretty bloody close.
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Ooh, my wife just had a thought about this ...
I was complaining about this mystery of the "taste we can't replace" (rhymes too) and I told her the idea about how it can't be the oil cos you have to chuck it every three or four days. She said yeah, but just think how many different dishes your average Restaurant kicks out in a day, never mind three.
Maybe we can't duplicate the complicated multi-layered taste because it's an equation of time over variety. Short time, big variety.
Well?????????
Right, back to the Wolf Blass Shiraz... cheers!
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Has anyone else managed to get a sample of the curry base?
I have been trying loads of different permutations to get an exact match
Although my family seem to not tell the difference, I still can
There is a slight fruity, extremely yummy taste, that I just can't get
This extra something we all want is in the base
You can eat a bought base it's own
I had a long chat with several chefs and they are adamant that you cannot get the same results at home.
I don't think there is any secrecy over the recipe, I now believe it to be a physical fact.
I don't understand it though but these dissapointments are very upsetting
My whole house smells like a fried onion today, as a result of all this cooking, and I still haven't got exactly what I want
One thing did become clear though
I got much closer by have a very thin curry base
I wondered also if this fruity taste might be mango chutney?
Whatever it is, it's very nice
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Pete.
You can eat the base at home because it is not KD's but a close approximation of this ..
I bought some base sauce last week & it is exactly like the one below,but for the missing ingredient.
I'm almost convinced its a flavor enhancer (not MSG,tried that ;)) after some comparisons last week & Maggi liquid Seasoning added to the final dish indicates this theory is not far off.
This surprisingly doesn't need massive Pots & Pans, i use one Stew Pot (about 7" high 10" across) & a very average large Saucepan IE if you buy a Saucepan set it's the largest of the set.No Bath outside Ray? ;D.
BASE.As i make it.
This recipe was given to me by my local.
Chop/Dice all veg..
15 Onions.
6 Tablespoon Vegetable Oil.( next time i do this i will use none !!).
2 """"""""""""""? Home made Fresh Ginger puree.
2 """"""""""""""? """""""""""""""""""? Garlic? """""".
3 """""""""""""" Curry powder ( Ive used Schwartz hot for 16 100% successful Curries !!).Not "The taste" but?best Curries Ive made.
3 """""""""""""" Turmeric.
1 """""""""""""" Extra hot chilli powder (You can substitute for just normal strength).
5/6 Carrots or 4 big ones (7"/8" is big).
3 Green Peppers.
5 Sticks Celery.
1 Tablespoon Salt.
2 Level Desertspoon Garam Masala.
20-30 stalks Fresh Coriander.
2 Heaped Tablespoons Sainsbury`s Italian Passata also used Lidle Passata (makes no difference).
Method.
Fry Garlic & Ginger until golden/brownish.
Add all spices & add some Water to stop becoming to sticky etc..(A Tomatoe Puree/paste texture should suffice).?
Add Onions,Carrots,Peppers,Celery,Coriander & Passata & simmer for 1 hour or until all ingredients are cooked .
Liquidize all ingredients.
Cook again for 10 minutes on medium heat.
Allow to cool & separate into approx .. Half liter portions (i use two jugs, put freezer bag in one & pour /serve with other to save making a mess).
When fully cooled you can freeze for months.
Members comment on how complicated my recipe is but if you read it through all you do is fry Garlic & Ginger add the Spices a bit of water & then all the veggies etc..& cook its just that there is a lot of various ingredients.
You can eat this base on its own & its lovely mmmmmmmmmmmm :D
You can make any Curry with this base if you leave out the Chili powder (another indication that its is very close to being 100% correct as a base gravy).
DARTH............
DARTH............
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Thanks Darth
I appreciate the recipe, but I have curry bases fighting their way out of the freezer.
It is very similar to some recipes I have tried and I am sure that it is a good one.
You said you bought some proper base
It's really runny, isn't it?
You also said it is exactly like your recipe,but for the missing ingredient
The latest bases I have made are the same
That close and yet missing, what I consider, to be the best bit
If this was a "got to make a large quantity" issue then I think your 15 onion recipe would do the job.
My present thoughts, are that we hide the taste, by putting too much spice or salt in.
When I have used up my curry base stocks
I will try your recipe, but I want to get this missing flavour
I must admit, I am beginning to think, this last part of the puzzle is impossible.
Short of the occasional fluke, a bought curry always beats mine
Do you think there is a missing herb or vegetable to the base?
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Do you add msg Pete? I dont think it is the missing flavour however most BIR's would use it IMHO
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Thanks Darth for listing your recipe for the base again, it looks pretty straight forward, i shall give this ago during this christmas period.
Just a though about the missing ingredient: we use tomato in the base and we know that tomato ketchup is used in bir's but has any one tried alittle bit of HP brown sauce as that has a slightly fruity taste and it's very moorish.
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I've tried Tomato Ketchup,puree & fresh all making no major difference.
This brings me to the missing ingredient quandary, it is so distinct, the only ingredient that I've noticed to make that much difference is Maggi liquid Seasoning & the water from the cooked Chicken.
Everything else just adds what we all seem to be saying " an extra dimension & depth" to the Curry overall, but i have enough of that. i want that missing link, i have a sneaking suspicion its not an orthodox Indian ingredient,or what we assume is orthodox.
I`m going to post the final stage Vindalloo now .
DARTHPHALL..... 8).....
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Do you add msg Pete? I dont think it is the missing flavour however most BIR's would use it IMHO
Hi Mark
? ? ? ? ?have you tried it in the base?
I'll add some to some base I have already made
I must admit that I feel I do something wrong with msg.
I add it and can't tell a difference
I tried it on a few things recently
I know you have had a lot of success lately
Do you think you make exactly the same as your BIR now?
Just a though about the missing ingredient: we use tomato in the base and we know that tomato ketchup is used in bir's but has any one tried alittle bit of HP brown sauce as that has a slightly fruity taste and it's very moorish.
Hi John
? ? ? ? ? I'll give that a go too
It definitely seems to be a fruity sort of taste
I've tried Tomato Ketchup,puree & fresh all making no major difference.
This brings me to the missing ingredient quandary, it is so distinct, the only ingredient that I've noticed to make that much difference is Maggi liquid Seasoning & the water from the cooked Chicken.
Everything else just adds what we all seem to be saying " an extra dimension & depth" to the Curry overall, but i have enough of that. i want that missing link, i have a sneaking suspicion its not an orthodox Indian ingredient,or what we assume is orthodox.
I`m going to post the final stage Vindalloo now .
DARTHPHALL
Hi Darth
? ? ? ? ? ?I've got some maggi seasoning, I'll try that as well
I wouldn't be surprised if there is an unorthodox ingredient
But at least I've got a few more ideas to try
Thanks everyone!
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Hi Pete,
>have you tried it in the base?
Yes I have
>I'll add some to some base I have already made
>I must admit that I feel I do something wrong with msg.
>I add it and can't tell a difference
Me too, I cant tell the difference ;D
>I know you have had a lot of success lately
>Do you think you make exactly the same as your BIR now?
No but my curries since the cracked it thread are more like a BIR. My local BIR is very good though :)
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I used MSG in my 99.9% Clone & found i couldn't perceive any difference between it & using Salt, its such a subtle additive with all the health implications i feel it is not worth using it.
Although it might be good for scaled down base gravies as its not as strong as Salt & therefore you will be less likely to ruin it by making it to Salty etc... ;)
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I'm inclined to agree with you Darth and Ive stopped using it in curries, however the fact remains if you are trying to 100% (not 99.9% ;D) duplicate most BIR's you must add MSG IMHO
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;D
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I'm inclined to agree with you Darth and Ive stopped using it in curries, however the fact remains if you are trying to 100% (not 99.9%? ;D) duplicate most BIR's you must add MSG IMHO
Hi Mark
? ? ? ? ? If BIR's are happy to spend money on msg, then it must be well worth using
It must be as important as a spice
We don't know how to use it
When I have cooked with it, I added a little towards the end of cooking (as instructed on the bag)
That is clearly wrong too, because it does nothing
Maybe it's in the curry gravy right at the start
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I used it in the final stage of the actual Curry itself, & put it in with all the Spices.
Salt Gives the same results there abouts, MSG, is i think, to subtle an ingredient to be used in heavily Spiced dishes to be of any real consequence to the overall flavor IMHO.
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As I recall I think it doesnt have much of a flavour on its own, its raison d'etre is to enhance the other flavours in the dish.
My bag also says to add near the end of cooking, Ive tried it at the start/at the end/in the base and at no time did I think it made a clear difference
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Hi all,
MSG tastes a bit like soy sauce - try dipping your finger in some and tasting it.
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I had a theory that white cabbage might be part of the "taste"
Yuck!!
It's definitely not
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I've heard a few people mention how it would be good to get hold of a sample of pure curry base, and the fact that it's actually d*amned hard to get a takeaway to give/sell you some.
Has anyone tried this: go into a takeaway and ask for chips and curry! I remember doing this quite a few times when I was younger (a long time ago!) and the curry sauce we used to get was a dark, savoury but sweet, oniony affair, fairly lacking in any real curry smell - my guess is that this was just some curry gravy fried off with some added chilli powder, and quite unlike your regular mild/medium curry sauces.
Curry sauce was never a menu option at these places (typically Pakistani kebab/pizza/curry shops) but they were always willing to rustle up a quick 'make do' curry sauce for you if you asked.
Just a thought, could help in 'The Quest' I suppose :)
Gary
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Nice one Gary !!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
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Nice one Gary !!!!!!!!!!!!? ;)
No probs guv' :)
On the Secret Ingredient subject: the only thing I can think of is Alcohol? Maybe this would explain why the predominantly Muslim Bengali restaurant workers won't eat the very food they'd cooked themselves?
Seriously, I added the remnants of a homemade French Onion Soup to my curry base this week (very reduced, & with all the alcohol burnt off) and boy did it taste smokey, sweet, & savoury! :P
Who knows! :o
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Our favourite takeaway has curry gravy on its menu.
They have a 'std gravy' and a 'hot' version (we have always bought the 'hot' version)
It's a dark red, runny gravy with a fantastic taste which is evident in most of the dishes that we have.
I will post a picture next time we buy some.
Also, I was walking past a different local takeaway a few days ago and there was a bloke having a ciggie at the door, (It changed hands a few months ago). He had on a chefs apron so I just asked him if they had a pot of base curry sauce in the kitchen and what was in it?
At first he said 'onions and spices', I asked what kind of spices, and he said 'garam masala' have you heard of it?? He knew by my response that I had some idea of the spices etc, and he then became much more secretive, he then said he was only there to do the front counter stuff and that it was the chefs secret. He did however end the conversation by saying that it's how the onions are cooked that's very important!
I honestly believe he knows more, but maybe I need to use his takeaway more often, (it's not our favourite)!
PS
My latest attempt at base sauce (see picture section) has been sitting for over 24 hours and to be honest I think the smell is average, and nothing like as good as when it was being cooked, but here's hoping!
Broon
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I saw a program quite a while ago that seemed to imply that tinned tomato soup was used, this seemed to be backed up by the chiefs using what looked like Heinz tomato soup out of large tins with the labels removed. I have not tried this, but it could be added to the base as part of the tomato content, or even to the curry in the final stages.
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That is definitely worth a try
I made a base with no onions, just tom soup
It was pleasant but not right
Using it as apart of the recipe, might do the job
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This thread was started one and a half years ago and still makes interesting reading, we?ve had several new members since then; so ive dug it out, dusted it off and bumped it up.
Regards Ashes :D
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'I saw a program quite a while ago that seemed to imply that tinned tomato soup was used'
I use Heinz tomato soup for my CTMs and one or two special dishes. It does work well and saves an awful lot of time getting the taste to authentic way. I sometimes add a little soup when I am flash frying onions. It tends to catch and adds something akin to the BIR taste. It can't be a secret ingredient because i dint think BIRs uses it in all their curries.
On the 'secret ingredient' point; in the 1970s a lot of people believed that Hashish was the secret ingredient in Phall. I knew a BIR in Bermondsey that admitted they put a little in for special customers; it certainly felt like it afterwards but that might have been the good ales beforehand.
Happy Cooking
C P
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I've changed my mind over the last year, i don't think the ingredient is a key to the secret, but the technique/method.
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hi , ive been trying to get the bir for many a year now, ive tried a few bases , kris dillon,pat chapmans and a few off the net.you speak of the secret ingredient which im not sure there is, iI feel there must be, then i think its to do with technique, im not sure but the nearest i got was an ordinary chicken curry which i seen on mamta gupta`s site in which there is the normal onion,garlic ,ginger tomato cumin,corriander tumeric .I added a few cloves cinamon stick .while on my quest i asked a few asian grocers how to make a restuarant curry and the nearest i got was to do the usual but add methi and at the end she said ( och stuff the restuarant guys) add some yoghurt at the end.Which i tried but it still wasnt right, then when on mamta gupta`s site i read about using asafoetida in dhals so i decieded to add a pinch with the cumin seeds in the oil before the onions. well the smell was there bir well nearly not too strong but there...me the other half and my daughter had it that night it was better than normal but still not the taste. The small lot which was left got put in the micro till the next night i was going to through it out but decided to heat it and try it when my wife and daughter came in they said its like a real indian in here..shame they couldnt taste it it was so good best ive ever tasted really like bir i ate the lot lol so to me the methi yoghurt and asafoetida and leaving to the next day is the answer but i need to try different amounts but i will report back when i get it perfect.
btw i asked an asian shopkeeper lots of times and got the same usual recipe without the yoghurt asafoetida and methi..when i told him about asafoetida he looked puzzled and him and his wife said they never heard of it which tells me thats part to do with the secret.
hope this isnt too long and winded but i feel if the people on here try this and experiment we will get the perfect bir
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I've done some experimentation with Asafoetida & it does help in respect to the strong Garlic smell you get in Bir's, but not always (as usual), although recently i have been going back to my roots in Curry Cooking terms & i think i will incorporate it in my next oven cooked Curry (this weekend i will post results okee dokee) :) ;)
Cheers for now ya buggers ;D
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Yep Hing (Asafoetida), which if I reall rightly literally translated means 'Devil's Dung' it is a gum resin that comes in lump or powdered form. It is a form of flavour enhancer rather than an up-front flavour of its own, e.g. brings out the flavour of Garlic & Onions; in some recipes it is used as a replacement for the latter. It should be used very sparingly and only in some curries. I know that BIRs used it in base preparation sometimes, but I am not aware they use it in their fast food meals (but then that is only my experience).
So you may have a point here. As Hing does not disappear but amalgamates in the dish by melting in the hot oil, you have to add it to the hot oil right at the start of cooking, usually before anything else, and you only let it fry for 1 or 2 seconds max. Whatever you do do not be tempted to add a lot of it as all the flavours will screw up; a small pinch is all that is required for say, a meal for two. Don't bother with lump form unless you are 'Tempering' as in Tarka Dhall.
Hope this helps
CP
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Asafoetida...It should be used very sparingly
I'll agree with that!! And it smells up the kitchen something awful. I keep it in a closed container inside a jar that is tightly sealed. If they are using it in BIR kitchens, I'm surprised it doesn't smell up the whole place with that unmistakable odor.
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i hope im on the right path but remeber and leave it overnight , it definately changed my curry, ive not had much time to try it again but i will and report back ..best of luck and i hope we find the holy grail
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Hello all! I made my first posting the other day re "THE SECRET" and today stumbled on this poll. Tis' all very interesting! But the thought that came to mind was wouldn't it be a hoot if some of the guys on this site could get together and open up a BIR/Takeaway maybe somewhere where BIR curry is popular and let the "great british public" decide if what you guys are acheiving is any better or worse than than that that the "professionals are achieving? Would they tell if there was a secret or not?
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Hmm, interesting, but I think it would end up with ladles and Kharais at 20 paces. What may be a good idea is to produce our own cookery book using the most popular recipes and the best techniques. I mentioned before that I was involved in such a task years ago and we were going to donate the proceeds to UNESCO, I reurned to UK before we finished it. Just a thought.
CP
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Perhaps just like the Chinese as has been stated here do. Reuse the Wok or pan for the same type of meal with just a damp cloth wipe off after cooking might be the key?
My Vindaloos here and back home in many cases have one particular aroma that is not in other dishes. This is a completely different kettle of fish and proves that in at least this instance I do have something missing. The nearest I have found in this case is Paprika and Asofoetida
Again and only in this instance I think it is a combination of these two with a good helping of salt at the start of cooking? The filters in my microwave are rich with this aroma from gentle warm ups and only Paprika comes even close to it.
As regards the general aroma from a restaurant? I've always taken this to be Tikka roasting and being prepared since it is a longer process.
I've also noticed that some other chicken dishes NOT TIKKA have the same aroma on the odd occasion.
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I believed for years that the secret ingredient was the chef's own garam masala mix but dont subscribe to that view now - I think it's all down to cooking technique and lots of heat. I will be purchasing a black iron fry pan soon, these are used in BIR's so I beleive, they hold the heat well and are quite cheep. I have a full size carbon steel wok which gets hotter than the flames of hell but dont use it for indian meals - It's just too darn big and has a habit of tipping over on the hob :P
Kev.
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I will be purchasing a black iron fry pan soon, these are used in BIR's so I beleive, they hold the heat well
The few open kitchen BIRs I've been able to peer into over the years have used cheap looking long handled stainless steel or aluminium frying pans. The problem with those heavy cast iron pans is that they retain the heat so that if you need to remove the heat for a short time, say to add the powdered spices, the temperature stays too high risking burning them. Even the pics I can find on the internet mostly show cheap looking stainless steel ones.
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hi - stainless steel pans are not cheap lol or I would have a set :P I do take your point about the iron pans and the possibilty of burning the spices - Yes the pans you seen were probably cheap aluminium saulte pans, worth a try I guess.
Kev.
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Hi folks, heres my tuppence,
I met my local takeaway owner the other day in asdas and asked him how they get the "taste" and he said "our pans retain all the flavours" so maybe chipfryers right in saying that, like the chinese do, only wipe down your pan, don't wash em, like a good omelette pan. Ok I suppose if your using them everyday but...
As for asafoetida I thought that was only used in authentic curries where using garlic/onions are against their religion, however I've tried using a little instead of freshly fried onions and garlic in the main meal to no effect, possibly cos they're in the base anyway.
Cheers
Mike
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So what's happened to the edit facility? And other threads just disappear without reason?
Here's my previous post with amendements:
"Stainless steel is one of the worst materials in terms of heat conductivity. Unless bonded with other materials, like alumimium or copper I wouldn't give it shelf space. Aluminium is second only to copper as one of the best materials."
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Hi George,
The edit (or "modify") button is still here on the top right hand side of the post. I believe the "delete" facility was removed many moons ago :P
Some threads get moved to a new (hopefully a more logical) home.
I think Stew may have deleted, what might have been, a divisive thread yesterday.
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The problem with those heavy cast iron pans is that they retain the heat so that if you need to remove the heat for a short time, say to add the powdered spices, the temperature stays too high risking burning them.
Hi Santa,
I agree with what you say Santa, but their ability to retain heat (i.e. high heat capacity) is also one of their benefits because it makes the distribution of heat more uniform and the temperature more stable - thereby avoiding hot spots and arguably reducing the risk of burning. I use them all the time for this very reason.
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The edit (or "modify") button is still here on the top right hand side of the post. I believe the "delete" facility was removed many moons ago :P
Something must be wrong with my browser settings because I can no longer see an edit button!
Like you, I rate cast iron because of even heat distribution. Much of the porcelain enamel has come off my old Le Creuset pans but I still use them. There's a difference here, of course, between the best material for heat distribution and the best material as your top surface or coating. That's why some of the more expensive pans bond a layer of aluminium and/or copper in between top, and often bottom, layers of stainless steel, in an attempt to get the best of all worlds. I have a couple of metal plates which I can heat on the gas rings on top of the stove. I use them like a 'hot plate' in commercial catering. The first I tried was stainless steel (throughout, several mm thick). I learned a lot. It is simply awful. There are hot spots and cold spots. My next attempt was solid copper. This is brilliant for heat distribution but it tarnishes badly and is far more difficult to clean. My next attempt will be with a solid sheet of cast iron but then rust could be an issue. I say, "sheet" but these are really thin blocks. They are sufficiently thick that none of the sheets can be bent.
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Cory Ander I understand what you're saying about the heavy cast iron pans but the ultimate test is what do the restaurants use. I may be wrong but it seems from the photos and videos I've seen and the few BIR kitchens I've seen myself, that they use cheap looking aluminium frying pans. Of course they also have vastly more powerful burners than most of us do, and the type of pan and the available heat source are both part of the equation.
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Yes Santa, that certainly looks to be the case in the video recently posted by Brum :P
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Are there anymore videos lurking about like this?
I might get some cheapo pans but I cannot think where to look for them over here? Perhaps my Chinese superstore up North?
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if you look very closely in the video I posted, the chef does in fact use two pans - a black iron fry pan and an aluminium pan the iron pan is the one he whacks with his spoon (ding!) :P
Kev.
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Yep, you're right there Kev :P
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the iron pan is the one he whacks with his spoon (ding!) :P
If you've got a really good eye like me ;) you'll see that his black iron pan is in fact a well used aluminium/stainless steel pan. You can see the silver colour on the handle and most of the inside of the pan, apart rom the upper sides.
I might just do that forensic sound thingy later too, when I get the time!
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If there is a secret ingredient?
OK then..................
If you cannot say what Indian spice or herb it is? What do you think it is from your experience in cooking? What DOES it taste or smell like?
Often the most elusive thing is right under your nose. Literally.
Best.
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I dont think there's any secret ingredient in the base sauce itself - in the final dish well maybe thats another story (or thread) :P I think it's all down to technique to be honest although i'm quite willing to be proven wrong :P
Kev.
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I know we all smell different things that's us. For me the aroma is in only a few dishes, not many in fact since I found out about base sauce elude me.
What I find totally annoying is that what I smell in my Vindaloo for example smells very familiar yet only 2 or 3 ingredients match what I smell and they are not Indian spices! ;D All very odd. Not feeling too prime today (Cold I think?)
Be back tomorrow and I hope I've stirred some interest in this because I've read so much about secrets.
One thing I do want to add is that over here at least in the states the Indian Restaurant had better adapt a little. Folks like to know what is in their food and have names that are understood on a menu.
To spread the word here another change is needed I feel.
Best.
(Thanks Kev)
I dont think there's any secret ingredient in the base sauce itself - in the final dish well maybe thats another story (or thread) :P I think it's all down to technique to be honest although i'm quite willing to be proven wrong :P
Kev.
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Ok this is getting annoying now. ::)
I warmed up a Broccoli soup this morning. The aroma from the Microwave was obviously my Indian from my takeaway. It's gotten stuck in the machines filters and I sit by it when its on hahahahaha.
I don't believe whatever causes this aroma is in my spice cabinet. I've been a bit unethical and tried nearly everything because it just has to be so simple to my thinking.
At least now I have base sauce. This went a long way to retrieving my self esteem in as much as I can now cook a decent meal. However I just keep moving on with it. I think heat does play a part but having had a few flamers now think that it just cannot be heat or a seasoned pan alone. There is something definitely missing from my food.
The other day I dropped Tomato Ketchup in one test and Brown sauce in another. Both had pleasing results and were extremely close to the aroma. Downside = SWEET. Way too sweet when mixed with the final sauce. Malt Vinegar might be worth a shot I suppose?
The spilling out random thoughts.
Anyone?
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i don't think there is a secret ingredient .I have Several BIR takeaways near me one is excellent one is pretty good and the others are poor.
Then again I could say the same about fish & chip shops ,pizza takeaways etc
I think its the cooking process ,Minimal spices and not too complicated preparation
Its all about making money so these chaps will want to do it as easily as possible ?
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Hi Bangra thanks.
You could be right. It's only 9:31 AM here and it smells like an indian restaurant again LOL ;D
I've just tried something oh so simple it does my head in to think. Let you know.
Yup your right. The amount it varies is frightening. Florida served up bottled sauce over their meat. :-\
Best.
i don't think there is a secret ingredient .I have Several BIR takeaways near me one is excellent one is pretty good and the others are poor.
Then again I could say the same about fish & chip shops ,pizza takeaways etc
I think its the cooking process ,Minimal spices and not too complicated preparation
Its all about making money so these chaps will want to do it as easily as possible ?
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I think its the cooking process ,Minimal spices and not too complicated preparation
Hi Bangra,
Are you able to elaborate on what you mean by "its the cooking process" please
Bangra?
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Well put Adamski,
There is no secret. Somewhere on the internet I read a survey on Chicken Tikka Masala. They tested 38 all from different restaurants and the only common ingredient between all 38 was the chicken!
I have made loads of curry sauces all similar to the ones on this site and they produce curries far better than most restaurants!
Regards ACIK24
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lo Corry,
By cooking process ,I think its the right amount of spices added at the right stage and cooked for the correct length of time ,
I believe certain BIR's will get a distinct taste by using different oils ie mustard oil or ghee and adding extra bits and pieces, butI reckon if the main part of the dish is done right using Garlic Ginger and the main 5 spices ,Coriander,Cumin,Turmeric, chilli powder and maybe Paprika.
I also think the addition of the tomato element is important ,i have tried puree,passata ,ketchup and combinations of all 3 but still cannot get it quite right but sometimes close
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This has been driving me mad for years and I am beginning to think I will never get this right
The curry gravy is far more complicated than it seems
I have seen three made start to finish and there seems nothing complicated
But there is this hidden flavour and a hidden aroma
I just bought a fantastic vindaloo and a carton of undiluted curry gravy
The previous day I had prepared some curry gravy
I wanted to prove a point
I know this particular vindaloo recipe very well
Dead simple
Heat curry gravy oil
Add some tomato puree, cook a minute
Add some curry gravy, cook a minute
Add main ingredient,salt and more curry gravy
Add spice and half a tomato
Cook five minutes and it's ready
So I tried this recipe with my purchased curry gravy (after diluting it)
It was absolutely amazing
Standing over the frying pan with this fantastic BIR aroma
It was to die for
The curry was right and it had the "taste"
So I did the same recipe with my curry gravy
I got no aroma or "taste"
So I conclude that BIR curries can be prepared at home, but the secret lies in the gravy
We think we have got it right, but we haven't
I am at a loss
I still haven't tried a full sized base
Perhaps that's the only thing left to try
The difference between restaurant and home made curry gravy is not apparent until it is re heated
The smell is almost like poppadoms
Maybe old poppadoms end up in the gravy
Maybe the oil they are cooked in, is used in the gravy
I seem to have hit a brick wall, after getting so close
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Haldi your dedication is impressive and I know how frustrating it can be. I bought a Madras sauce from my favourite BIR and took it home and subjected it to an autopsy. I removed what solids I could find and tried to identify them with the help of my wife who is a qualified chef. We found what looked like; fragments of bay leaf, the skin off a green chilli or capsicum, some small seeds that could have been cumin but they were slightly smaller a bit like arjowan and we also found some very small spherical objects which could have been some kind of flour or milk product or poppy seeds, just dont know. There was also a tomato component floating around along with lots of oil. From a taste point of view and over and above the normal flavours we detected, a strong chicken flavour, very slight hint of cinnamon and Turkish delight (rose water).
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I wonder if Heston Blomenthal could be persuaded to take on curry? ;D
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:o What a good call. I can see it now, "The Perfect BIR Curry". What do you reckon he'd be playing you on his mp3 player?
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Could it be that a commercial kitchen can produce a far hotter flame than we can at home. Is it the higher cooking temperatures that makes the difference? ???
Also, as they use much larger volumes of spice than we do, I guess theirs is always fresh.
I did read once somewhere, that they will only use medium size spanish onions despite this being more prep work than if they were to use the large onions available in the supermarkets. :-\
I dont think there is secret ingredient. ;)
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Actually, looks like heston already has:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tv_and_radio/perfection/about_index.shtml#episode_one
Dunno if/when a repeat might be.
Anyone see it when it was on?
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Actually, looks like heston already has:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tv_and_radio/perfection/about_index.shtml#episode_one
Dunno if/when a repeat might be.
Anyone see it when it was on?
I started a thread on this and pasted the full (long) recipe here at this forum. It can't be hard to find. I suggested he try CTM in an email to Heston and the producers after the first series. Who knows if this helped to influence him in some minor way but it was good news.
Please see:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2064.0
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Maybe the oil they are cooked in, is used in the gravy
I know that some (if not all?) used to use the old frying oil for the curries. It was driven as ever by economy. The old oil had to be disposed of if not used up and that cost money so they reused it for the curries. But then the councils (not sure if they all do this now) started to collect their used oil (and chippies old oil etc.) for free because it can be turned into biodiesel. Perhaps that's when some of the smell/taste started disappearing from BIR curries?
I definitelty think it adds something but you have to fry a shed load of bhajis, pakoras etc. to get the same depth of flavour into the oil as the BIRs do.
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I have a far fetched suggestion...
It is a fact that reusing vegetable oil lowers its smoking point each time.
BIRs probably reheat the oil in their deep fat fryers many times, e.g. they may change the oil in their fryers once per week.
By the time they then use it in a curry (assuming that is what they do) - at high heat, it is probably smoking like a chimney. Could this deteriorated oil's smoking effect on the ingredients being fried account for the taste missing from our currys?
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Could this deteriorated oil's smoking effect on the ingredients being fried account for the taste missing from our currys?
I don't know, but I spent another day in my curry laboratory (garage)
trying to match this wonderfull curry gravy I bought
I thought I was really close, but when it came to cooking with it, absolutely zero aroma
Maybe it is old oil, as you say
I think they must add something that we haven't got
There certainly nothing used in my kitchen, at any time, that smells or tastes, like what I am looking for.
It is quite unique
There was this asian chef I knew, really nice bloke
His takeaway produced brilliant curries with this extra "taste"
Then his lease ran out, and he had to move premises
The new place he started, had loads of new equipment
It even had an electric potato peeler
This machine looked and acted very similar to a tumble dryer
You put potatoes in with skins on, then turned on the machine
A couple of minutes later you took them out: whole, but completey peeled
I was very impressed
He even got a new cooker
My gosh, you should have seen the flames it could produce of the big gas ring
They were probably about a foot high
But the funny thing was, that he never produced a curry with the "taste" again
His curries were very good, but never as good
I used to pester him with many questions and he always insisted that " the curry is created in the pan, not by the curry gravy"
If I could just make curry gravy with the "aroma" I would be happy
There is only one place left around here that does that
I think this is the aroma/flavour George talks about
I'll have to go back
I feel like I am running out of time, and will never know
Maybe I can find out more over Christmas
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Could it be an industrial strength dose of msg? I bet I'm the 1,000,000th person to suggest this lol.
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It even had an electric potato peeler
This machine looked and acted very similar to a tumble dryer
But the funny thing was, that he never produced a curry with the "taste" again
His curries were very good, but never as good
Haldi
Your efforts and reports continue to be so interesting. You can get a potato peeling bowl for a Kenwood Chef food mixer, on a domestic scale. It's basically got an abrasive surface inside and, as the spuds are tumbled around, the skins get scraped off.
It's amazing that the chef's curries went downhill just because he moved premises, unless he simply doesn't agree that his old curries were better. But you'd think he would be aware of a change and could explain what he'd done and why. One possibility is that he replaced an old seasoned wok. I forget the Chinese word for wok 'seasoning', which supposedly adds something, but I've never thought it possible that it could add much - not the high strength aroma I've smelled wafting down the street out of a sealed take away container, or from a BIR premises.
I think the used 'chip' oil idea has some potential as part of the answer.
Regards
George
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I hope I don't upset the venerable contributers here when I suggest that the secret is not so much in the the base, but in knocking up the final dish.
I believe I have got pretty close to the BIR taste, but I have to admit, there is still something missing!!
The closed thing that comes close to the rich aroma wafting from your local curry house is, I believe, as lot of people here have already suggested, fengreek leaf. I add ground dried methi leaf to many of my curry dishes, and although it produces results nearly as savory as my local, it is 90% 'there' but not quite!
Could it be that as we, as 'chefs', are exposed to the cooking smells, it's never going to taste quite right? I cook a mean Sunday morning 'fry-up', but it always tastes better if someone else has done the cooking!!
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I believe it in the final cooking process as well, yes the base is the building block but its understanding spicing, what works & how its fused to get maximum spiciness using technique and the correct heat that would take years to master.
I am in ore of Indian chefs when i can sneak a view in their kitchen its like Christmas come early.
Even accepting this it still frustrates me that i can not replicate at home
Stew 8)
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I definitely believe there are secrets in BIR cooking. It could be in the technique or the ingredients or both. Either way there has to be some secret to it because if there wasnt, then someone would have recreated it, even on a small scale at home. The food industry is renowned for keeping secrets, look at Coca Cola for instance.
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The closed thing that comes close to the rich aroma wafting from your local curry house is, I believe, as lot of people here have already suggested, fengreek leaf. I add ground dried methi leaf to many of my curry dishes, and although it produces results nearly as savory as my local, it is 90% 'there' but not quite!
Could it be that as we, as 'chefs', are exposed to the cooking smells, it's never going to taste quite right? I cook a mean Sunday morning 'fry-up', but it always tastes better if someone else has done the cooking!!
I agree with you. It's because our smell and taste senses are linked.
I love that curry aroma wafting down the street. However, it soon disappears once you step inside the restaurant and you certainly can't smell it AFTER you've had a curry.
If you're actually cooking curry, you wouldn't notice that gorgeous aroma that we're so familiar with. Only way to check to see if that authentic smell is being produced is to get someone else (a curry head preferably) to walk past your kitchen door when you're cooking ... or even ask the down-wind neighbours, I'm sure they'll soon comment on the smell wafting around outside!
:o
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I'm back in St Andrews for a few days so nipped along to The Balaka for my take out Madras. I have a broken finger with a bandage on and got some sauce on it. For the past day or so I've been smelling and smelling the sauce trying put my finger (no pun intended) on the aroma. I am now convinced that it's Heinz Cream of Tomato soup. There is also a sour, bitter smell. I'm quite sure about the soup though!
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I'm back in St Andrews for a few days so nipped along to The Balaka for my take out Madras. I have a broken finger with a bandage on and got some sauce on it. For the past day or so I've been smelling and smelling the sauce trying put my finger (no pun intended) on the aroma. I am now convinced that it's Heinz Cream of Tomato soup. There is also a sour, bitter smell. I'm quite sure about the soup though!
Hey Bobby
Got the recipe for you here http://southernfood.about.com/od/okra/r/bl10814d.htm
;D
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Nice one SnS! We've found the "taste"! Use Okra with Tomato soup as your base sauce. Job done.
It really does smell like cream of tomato soup though... I might try this in my base instead of canned tomatoes.
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...Only way to check to see if that authentic smell is being produced is to get someone else (a curry head preferably) to walk past your kitchen door when you're cooking ... or even ask the down-wind neighbours, I'm sure they'll soon comment on the smell wafting around outside!
I remember hearing this incident reported in the news back in October:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2182525,00.html
A Thai restaurant was frying chillis and the aroma was so strong, throughout the local neigbourhood, that the authorities feared it might be a chemical attack!
If spiced oil is used, as many of us think it probably is, I've long had my doubts that a sufficient volume could be produced as a by-product of making base sauce. It seems more likely that they would prepare quite a large volume of spiced oil directly. If chillis were one of the ingredients, the chilli 'cloud' could easily 'carry' other aromas as it wafts down the street. Just a thought...
Regards
George
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....I am in ore of Indian chefs
You must be thinking of "The Iron Chef" then Stew? ;D ;)
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I'm probably repeating what has already been said but, the smell that comes from my local take-away is almost a barbecued aroma, suggesting that the secret is not an ingredient but the use of flash-frying to sear your final curry. All BIR's will do this but I bet not many of us do. We don't have big cookers or hoods or fire extinguishers.
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I'm probably repeating what has already been said but, the smell that comes from my local takeaway is almost a barbecued aroma, suggesting that the secret is not an ingredient but the use of flash-frying to sear your final curry. All BIR's will do this but I bet not many of us do. We don't have big cookers or hoods or fire extinguishers.
Sorry to disagree with you Dirk. I'm not disputing what you're saying about the possible source of the aroma (albeit a bbq one?), but BIR's do not all do this. My regular restaurant doesn't for sure, neither do a few other "open kitchen" takeaways I've used. The aroma is still most certainly there. In fact their burners aren't much different to the largest gas ring I have at home, which most modern hobs now have as standard.
Having said that, if I did want to flash-fry a curry at home, my largest burner ring (3 kW) would be ample, but as you rightly imply, it would make a bit of a mess, and her indoors would certainly object .... and fire extinguishers are expensive ... and if you were right, I'd have a queue outside my front door!
Regards
Sn's ;D
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Anytime I heat one of my cast iron baltis up till they are smoking hot and I pour my just cooked curry in and everything is sizzling and smoking ---- I get the SMELL and when I taste the curry I just poured in -- i get the TASTE.
There is no secret ingredient... Its is all bout high tempratures, smoking and sizzling.
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I definitely believe there are secrets in BIR cooking. It could be in the technique or the ingredients or both. Either way there has to be some secret to it because if there wasnt, then someone would have recreated it, even on a small scale at home. The food industry is renowned for keeping secrets, look at Coca Cola for instance.
That is completely different though. The Coca Cola syrup spicing is known only by 3 I believe people within the full company.
For a secret to be kept by so many thousands of restaurants is a crazy concept. Even crappy local kebab shops who can fire out currys with the BIR taste. And if the magic circle has tough you anything - there is always someone willing to sell out secrets for more money than they would get using the secret.
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The closed thing that comes close to the rich aroma wafting from your local curry house is, I believe, as lot of people here have already suggested, fengreek leaf. I add ground dried methi leaf to many of my curry dishes, and although it produces results nearly as savory as my local, it is 90% 'there' but not quite!
Could it be that as we, as 'chefs', are exposed to the cooking smells, it's never going to taste quite right? I cook a mean Sunday morning 'fry-up', but it always tastes better if someone else has done the cooking!!
I agree with you. It's because our smell and taste senses are linked.
I love that curry aroma wafting down the street. However, it soon disappears once you step inside the restaurant and you certainly can't smell it AFTER you've had a curry.
If you're actually cooking curry, you wouldn't notice that gorgeous aroma that we're so familiar with. Only way to check to see if that authentic smell is being produced is to get someone else (a curry head preferably) to walk past your kitchen door when you're cooking ... or even ask the down-wind neighbours, I'm sure they'll soon comment on the smell wafting around outside!
:o
Again your absolutely right... when you have been spending hours making base sauces, grinding fresh spices, pre cooking meat, and cooking up a curry your senses are completely dulled to your final dish --- in part because you *know* what you have just put in it etc.
When I serve my curries sizzling in baltis to my friends and family they swear blind that they are eating restaurant quality.
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Anytime I heat one of my cast iron baltis up till they are smoking hot and I pour my just cooked curry in and everything is sizzling and smoking ---- I get the SMELL and when I taste the curry I just poured in -- i get the TASTE.
There is no secret ingredient... Its is all bout high tempratures, smoking and sizzling.
I've got to try that
Somebody bought me some balti bowls for a present
Unfortunately they got those awful stainless steel ones
They can't be heated the same
I'll have to get some cast iron baltis
Where did you get yours from?
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Anytime I heat one of my cast iron baltis up till they are smoking hot and I pour my just cooked curry in and everything is sizzling and smoking ---- I get the SMELL and when I taste the curry I just poured in -- i get the TASTE.
That may be the case but it doesn't really explain where the "tatse" and "smell" come from as you get that if you have your curry in a takeaway plastic or foil container.
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That may be the case but it doesn't really explain where the "tatse" and "smell" come from as you get that if you have your curry in a takeaway plastic or foil container.
It suggests that it comes from the heat involved in the cooking process.
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Anytime I heat one of my cast iron baltis up till they are smoking hot and I pour my just cooked curry in and everything is sizzling and smoking ---- I get the SMELL and when I taste the curry I just poured in -- i get the TASTE.
There is no secret ingredient... Its is all bout high tempratures, smoking and sizzling.
I've got to try that
Somebody bought me some balti bowls for a present
Unfortunately they got those awful stainless steel ones
They can't be heated the same
I'll have to get some cast iron baltis
Where did you get yours from?
http://www.spicesofindia.co.uk/
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Anytime I heat one of my cast iron baltis up till they are smoking hot and I pour my just cooked curry in and everything is sizzling and smoking ---- I get the SMELL and when I taste the curry I just poured in -- i get the TASTE.
That may be the case but it doesn't really explain where the "tatse" and "smell" come from as you get that if you have your curry in a takeaway plastic or foil container.
Because the restaurants and take aways reach these searing sizzling hot heats in their normal cooking pans, but on a home stove the white hot cast iron on contact with the food gives me the *exact* and I mean EXACT smell and taste.
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Tried my gas bbq (put wok straight on top of burner having taken the grill off) hoping this would deliver the last step to BIR. Alas would have to say taste was no better than electric hob.
I did get the oil smoking and amazingly the wok did set on fire after adding the garlic/ginger paste (a bit dangerous to say the least if you weren?t expecting it and I wasn?t).
The dish certainly cooked quicker (burn off of water) but there is no discernable taste difference cooking the same madras recipe between the two.
Rai advises in the Chinese rice topic You can?t season a wok and expect it to impart flavour immediately. You need to use it several times (to build up a substantial patina) before you notice the smokey taste (wok hey). The more you use it the better it gets.
So I think I need to try a few more times to be sure but i feel the omens are not that good as i would have expected at least some increase in the sort of "bbq" flavour. I really thought this would be it as I feel it is only that sort of smokey ?bbq? taste which is now the difference.
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what is the power output of the burner? manual should tell you.
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Chris,
the electric hob is 1.5kw. the bbq is 7.5kw (adelaide woody 2). the bbq burner is rectangular and longer than the wok by about 1/4 so the setup is not ideal but i thought ok for a trial.
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Hi all,
Here's my take on it as I cook both Chinese and Indian food. I think technique has a lot to do with it but there are tricks of the trade too. Take Chinese fried rice for instance. I tried for years to get an acceptable restaurant style fried rice and in the end I cracked it.....by buying an electric rice cooker! The key problem was always too much moisture in the rice and in no other way could i get a "dry" rice other than using a rice coooker. My point here is if you follow most recipies for fried rice you can make it work using a rice cooker. Boil it as most do and things go pear shaped but most books don't tell you that! ;) i am sure out of all the base recipies here that at some time if not most, sources have been telling the truth about the recipies but they are using commercial equipmemnt to cook it. Also in the Curry secret KD mentions that some chefs add a teaspoon of Tandoori marinade to add extra flavour at the end of cooking. I know this to be true as I found it floating in my Lamb Karahi one night! The Lamb Poori I bought last night definately had vinegar in it, probably about a teaspoon full and also strong ginger overtones. So i believe there are certain twists at the end of cooking. Most tikka starters or chaats are seved with a slice of lemon. How many of use squeeze it on without thinking possibly not knowing that we are adding an essential ingredient ourselves - wouldn't that be something? As for the smell of your local BIR when you walk past. As has been said before. You are out on fresh air then all of a sudden you are hit by this heady aroma of spices etc. It is going to seem more intense. Let's not forget as well that what you are smelling is being thrown out buy a commercial extractor system so you are getting a mix of absolutely everything going on in that kitchen at the time, not just the curry. As for msg. I saw a chinese chef throw about dessert spoon full into the wok before cooking a chow mein one night but i also know the same restaurant buys in their noodles prepacked and "wet" from company in Manchester so again technique, ingredients and flair? MSG does add flavour to Chinese cooking but I feel Indian spices may be too strong to allow the, enhancer as it is, to make much difference. I would possibly suggest that what we may be looking for is a simple ingredient, maybe even vinegar, that cuts through the smooth oily spices to give the dish an extra dimention. It has been said elswhere that smoked paprika probably isn't used but I would dissagree. I am convinced my local carryout uses it but only in their Chefs Specials dishes. The thing about this stuff is it's hot too so you don't have to add extra Chilli powder. Corry put up a mignificent post about flaming his curries on his burner which looks like it has been wrenched off the wing of a Beoing 747 and says it makes a marked difference to his curries. Could this be because he is cooking outside in th open air? Less dulling of the smell senses? In total I think you are all being a bit hard on yourselves as I am convinced that the curries you guys are producing would sit alongside a hell of a lot of BIR curries and probably beat few as well. Just one last thing about the cooking temprature. If you look at most domestic cookers, hobs and even ranges the output is about 3.5 to 5 or 6 (can't remember if it's Kilojules or what)on the wok burner, a Chinese commercial wok burner runs at about 17! You will not find a domestic range with much more as it is rated to match a domestic canopy or extractor! what I used to do before i got a cannon range was remove the cast iron diffuser on the ring and let the flame come through straight onto the bottom of the wok - not suggesting that you do do the same ofcourse!!! ;D
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Chris,
been thinking more about my bbq burner and read the various posts searching on burner. found the posts very interesting particularly the blue flame. my bbq burner is aimed at heating up a large area ie the grill and is not really blue like my torch for plumbing.
i don't think now the test equipment was good enough and i'm on look out for a burner at a decent price.
given what you say about your cast iron baltis and the quality of the base & recipe i've got through CRO then i feel it ie hot burner can be the only missing ingredient.
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Davy,
nice post. very much conclude on the rice problems and i'll add to the rice post my experiences.
the secrete ingredient i often use is a splash of worcester sauce. it' seems to add a sweet smokey flavour and gets the dish closer to BIR/TA taste.
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Back again,
I was pondering the theory of the vinegar, worcester sauce and additional theories and practices this morning. Then I had a thought that may tie in with what we all seem to think is involved in "The taste & Smell" What about some sort of pureed Indian Pickle added to the dish? We know the Indians are big on their pickles and chutneys in India etc We also know mango chutney is added to various dishes. All my locals do and Achari or pickle curry. Has any of our forum noticed large jars of Indian pickle at their local cash & carry? Has any of our intrepid investigators noticed any in a BIR kitchen?
I have found over the years that so much information can be gleaned from multiple sources and many a time I have cracked one problem or another via books I already have at home. I just couldn't see the Forrest for the trees at the time. For instance I was having "Another" Puree a week ago and got the distinct taste of coconut which I hadn't picked up before and I have used this TA quit a few times. Instantly I thought of the paste given to Annam in his base sauce post. It fits like a glove in to this theory of pates and marinades added at the end of cooking. Ta and restaurants do goof up at times and add a bit too much of something. I have had several sweet and sour sauces over the years that have been very lemony. They haven't changed the recipie just goofed up while making it!!! :-\
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Davy,
interesting theory. i'm afraid i'm not convinced.
pondering a bit more would do no harm though. the focus would need to be on us though not the "Indian" people (meaning Indian loosely, the cooks at my fav TA originating from Bangladesh) as the reason why we have BIR today is that the native dishes were adjusted to suit the brit pallet.
the sweetness is an interesting part as just adding sugar does not move towards the BIR taste - it's too sickly. at moment i've adapted the spice mix i us to add sugar the idea being that the sugar caramelises during the frying process. this has moved my cooking on i feel in the right sweetness direction but as you say we need everyone?s' input to get closer.
The smokeyness I?m convinced comes from the hot burners used and I see the Worcester sauce trick as a stop gap measure (I am looking at burners at present)
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Hi Jerry,
In truth I would tend to agree. I managed to get bargain in a Blender with coffee grinder attachment this weekend so I decided to grind down some methi leaves. This led to a most interesting experience indeed. To explain, I am a mobile DJ and I had a party to do Saturday night. During the afternoon while I was grinding the spice I had been rubbing it between my thumb and fore finger to check on the smoothness of the blend. When I went out of the front door there it was , the BIR smell as large as life. I was looking around to see if I could locate the source of the smell, it was me ! When I arrived at the venue and got out of the van there it was again. I went inside and set up but could only smell faint whiffs of it. Later in the evening I had to go back out to the van and there it was again as large as life. Proof that fresh air intensifies the smell of this spice. When I made Annams base the Corriander stalks made a big difference to my base so I think I will try putting in about the same amount of unground methi leaves and stalks and see if that makes any odds. I don't think It will adversely effect any dishes as it is quite smooth spice anyway. I am going to try the Famed Darth base next time as it has most of Annams ingredients in and i do like his base!! Thanks for the update on the paste Annam!!
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Davy,
i am convinced a little methi in the dish is definitely a must (i add 1 tsp once the base has been added). decided to try and repeat the grinding but alas could not get the smell like u managed. all i can think is that u maybe did some other spice grinding and it sort of collectively built up. i did just the methi (4 tbsp or 60 ml).
also convinced on coriander in the base (i can't be bothered to take the leaves off so i use the lot - i don't cook & make base on same day so leaves don't tend to keep).
Darth's base has good reviews so would expect u will get good result. I've tried 3 since joining (rajver, saffron & ifindforu - used KD before). all 3 have been spot on with the rajver what i call a delux version. i think once a base has reached a threshold then they are all effectively good albeit they produce slightly different tasting curries. the rajver & ifindforu have coconut in which i like a lot.
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This BIR aroma is a real killer isn't it?
I was cooking curry one afternoon, then went out for an hour or so
During this later time, I kept getting a waft of BIR
It was coming from my fingers too (just like Davy said)
And that was because I had been adding dried fenugreek leaves by hand
It's a really strong smell
I needed to assert some self control to stop sniffing my fingers
Finger sniffing is not a habit I want to get in to!
I've tried fenugreek in the base, but I thought it seemed to lose it's character
It didn't dominate the flavour, like I thought it would
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I usually grind the spices and then put them through a sieve. Then return the rougher parts to the grinder as well. I find if you only half fill the coffee grinder it does a better job. It's funny how the spice smells stronger outside than I though. It must be so strong that it dulls the smell senses quite quickly. The day I mentioned I only ground up the Methi and the grindee was brand new. My wife popped out to the shop while I was doing the grinding and all she could smell was methi inn her hair when she was out! That's what caused the smell alright! The resulting curry was excellent as well!! Haldi, sniffing your fingers is an unfortunate by product of the quest!!! I was sniffing the kitchen wall the other day when a found a bit of curry I had missed on cleanup LOL!!! I reckon it all linked in the same way as curry tasting better the next day. It's just that your smell senses have had a rest from it and you get a fresh whiff the next day! Jerry I freeze the corriander leaves and use the stalks they reuse fine after freezing. Just keep them whole and chop them before you use them, otherwise if you chop before freezing you get one big corriander ice block!
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I needed to assert some self control to stop sniffing my fingers
Finger sniffing is not a habit I want to get in to!
oh come on, Haldi, live a little! LOL ;D There are worse things you could be sniffing you know...believe me - I've tried! ;) hehehe Mind you, I also have to say that as a woman, when I sniff things people tend to think I'm sensual....but when a bloke does it, he's a pervert! :o Double standards I know, but hey! it works in my favour so who am I to argue? ;D
Have to admit I'm partial to a larger dose of methi in my curries too although I haven't tried adding it to the base :)
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Davy,
thanks for thoughts on freezing the coriander leaves whole which will come in useful for me (i always have too much or not enough).
regards,
jerry
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Hi All,
Why is it you always remember things while your offline? ! I just remembered reading somewhere that BIR's sometimes add a touch of Citric Acid to bases to preserve them for a bit longer. How this would effect the taste or not I don't know but maybe the something we are all thinking about that's missing? :-\
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Hi all as ive said before,my local sells curry sauce.bought a chicken madras and a madras sauce.The madras sauce tasted the same as the sauce on the chicken.But the next day the cold madras sauce tasted just like mine tastes the next day.So then made a chicken madras with the sauce,the sauce tasted like one of my Curry's,it didn't have the taste.So have come to the conclusion that something is added at the end of cooking to give it the bir smell and taste.Just wish i new what it is.
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I think you all have hit the nail on the head with the the methi. I only started adding it as an ingredient a few months ago but what a difference it makes to the taste of the final curry.
Up until recently using a balti recipe on this board I have included it at the frying stage of the final curry. The aroma instantly transforms into the curry house smell.
Purely by accident when carrying out the test for the "Vegetable Soup" curry base I forgot to add the methi at the frying stage - instead it was added to the patia I made when the chicken was added. The patia was the best I have ever made and I felt it had the true restaurant taste.
Next time I will add it at the frying stage and see if it makes a difference.