Curry Recipes Online
Supplementary Recipes (Curry Powders, Curry Paste, Restaurant Spice Mixes) => Supplementary Recipes (Spice Mixes, Masalas, Pastes, Oils, Stocks, etc) => Topic started by: JerryM on February 19, 2008, 04:23 PM
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This spice mix is taken for Lynette Baxter's Balti Cookbook (ISBN 0-86288-275-3).
Balti Spice Mix:
10 ml (2tsp) paprika
2.5 ml (1/2 tsp) chilli powder
5 ml (1tsp) salt
7.5ml (1 1/2tsp) ground coriander
5ml (1 tsp) ground cumin
Mix together and store in air tight container
It is surprisingly simple to make but produces a good "toffee/chocking" smell on frying at the curry cooking stage (which i believe a crucial factor in achieving the curry taste).
To use it, mix it with tomato puree (suggest 2 tbsp) and enough water to make a runny paste.
The cooking method is as used by many on this site and is repeat here for info only.
To make the curry:
1) fry garlic/ginger paste in oil on a medium/high heat until the rawness smell has gone (removing pan from heat as required to prevent burning)
2) take pan off heat and add spice mix paste and stir to mix with garlic.
3) return pan to heat and stir/fry until water has almost gone (a "toffee or choking" smell should be created)
4) add small amount of base (typ 50ml) and stir/fry until water has almost gone
5) add rest of base (typ 150 - 200ml), rest of ingredients and cook gently for 5 mins
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I've completely missed this book
Is it any good?
Does it use a curry gravy/base?
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Hi Haldi,
I'm not sure if it's a different book but I have Lynette Baxter's "Balti - The Complete Cookbook" (ISBN 1-85605-246-x). Lynette Baxter is apparently a home economics graduate and works on (or did work on) product and recipe development for high street retailers.
It is easy to spot many similarities (i.e. wads of similar text) between it, Pat Chapman's books, and the "100 Best Baltis" book (all published around the same time and this and the "100 Best Baltis" following on the heels of Pat Chapman's earlier books I believe). They seem to have often used the same reference source (or each other's books of course).
This spice mix is, as near as damn it, the same as that in the 100 Best Baltis Cookbook (except for using a little more salt, cumin and chilli).
Yes, it uses a "balti sauce" (and has a recipe for a "quick balti sauce", just like 100 Best Baltis), together with this "balti spice mix" and a "balti garam masala".
I've made the balti base (and used several of her recipes) and am not overly impressed with it.
Nevertheless, like the other books, this book is also a useful reference and is worth having.
PS: I can't understand how a "spice mix" cannot have tumeric in it. Those deep yellow stains are, to me anyway, a clear indication of a genuine BIR curry (every bit as much so as "the BIR smell" and "the BIR taste"!)! ;D
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Not much flavour in there IMHO.
I love the Pat Chapman balti masala
Onion Seeds, Lovage Seeds, Cumin Seeds, Coriander Seeds, Mustard Seeds, Fennel Seeds, Fenugreek Seeds, Casia, and more.... delicious 8)
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Cory/Haldi,
it's the same book as listed by Cory.
in terms of is it any good - it's a bit like KD plus
1) i do rate the spice mix feeling i've achieved a step change in curry making since using it. i do want to compare it against say yours Haldi which has good ratings (any chance of a link)
2) the base i feel is very similar to KD but i feel slightly more delux. it's not as good as parker21 (and i feel sure saffron which i've not yet tried). interestingly for me it contains garam masala.
3) i feel the make your own garam masala is pretty good (got me into using star anise)
4) there is a much greater range of recipes than KD. i've only made the chicken balti which was ok, close but not quite at restaurant/takeaway taste
turmeric hmm - this is a big unknown for me as i don't like the taste and as a norm i don't use it at all having compared like for like bases and curries in the past with and without it. like cory says though it must be their due to the yellow stains. i feel (from KD book) it must be added at the base stage not at final cooking as otherwise the taste in the restaurant/takeaway dish would be strong which it is not.
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Seeds, Lovage Seeds, Cumin Seeds, Coriander Seeds, Mustard Seeds, Fennel Seeds, Fenugreek Seeds, Casia, and more.... delicious 8)
That does sound pretty tasty! :P
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1) i do rate the spice mix feeling i've achieved a step change in curry making since using it. i do want to compare it against say yours Haldi which has good ratings (any chance of a link)
Hi Jerry,
If you're talking about the one I use, I've got the proportions on my Jalfrezi recipe. The Vindaloo has it too, but its buried in the Saffron thread since I haven't quite decided if it's stable or not. I suppose it might be "good enough", and I can always alter the spice mix later.
The Jalfrezi's here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2326.0.html and Haldi's post where I nicked it from is here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2296.0.html.
HTH,
ast
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Ast, thanks for links.
the Haldi takaway spice mix is very interesting compared to LB given the significant differences.
i am going to have to give it a go using CA's curry masala for the curry powder.
comparative proportions (HD:LB):
1) turmeric (20%:0%)(also present in the curry powder and not a taste i like)
2) paprika (20%:30%)(a spice i like)
3) cumin (11%:17%)(a spice which can overpower)
4) curry powder (20%:0)(an opportunity to add depth of spice). i am not convinced on it's inclusion in a spice mix, believing it better to add in it's own right at cooking stage ie say 1 tsp of both.
when i say "i like" i mean a spice i feel i can relate to in the finished restaurant/takeaway dish.
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Recipe for Pat Chapman's Balti Masala Mix moved to here by CA http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2454.0.html
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i been experimenting with several ratio's of "spice mix" and have adopted the LB spice mix to a slightly modified version as follows:
Balti Spice Mix (LB+):
20 ml (4tsp) paprika
2.5 ml (1/2 tsp) chilli powder
5 ml (1tsp) salt
20 ml (4 tsp) ground coriander
5ml (1 tsp) ground cumin
5ml (1 tsp) sugar
background
in making a curry with the LB spice mix alone i found the curry still lacking compared to a BIR in what i thought was depth of spice. i thought the answer was to add more spice and have therefore explored the effects of various curry powders.
i used the same base and same cooking recipe/technique and tried various ratio's and even complete substitutions of various spice mixes (CA's Curry Masala, Chris303 Balti Masala, Chris303 Madras Masala, Chris303 Rogan Josh Masala). i also compared the finished dishes with leftover curry from my local TA.
results:
1) the masala's on their own were worse than LB on it's own
2) a ratio of 50:50 LB:Masala was a big improvement
3) the choice of which masala was best to use in the 50/50 mix was too close to call with all producing very good curries
4) the 50/50 LB/Masala spice mix was not as sweet as the TA
5) the cumin was detectable in the 50:50 but not in the TA
conclusions:
1) the LB+ spice mix gets closer to TA taste
2) the LB+ is best used with another curry powder typ 50:50 ratio
3) this still does not quite get to BIR taste which i now feel is down to not having one of those hot live flame burners (for my next trial i am going to try to use by gas bbq and try to cook directly off the burner)
for info the recipe i used was 1 tsp garlic/ginger paste, 1 tsp LB or LB+ (plus 1 tsp of Masala or 1+1 tsp masala and no LB ie 2 tsp total in various ratio's), 2 tbsp tom puree in water per 200ml of base and for final testing a splash of worcester sauce.
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Hi jerry, Im a little reluctant to post in case I get called unconstructive and have my posts deleted again, but
It sounds like a shed load of salt in there (almost 9%) although i see there is also an even bigger shed load in the original (almost 17%!)
And sugar in a spice mix? Is that right? Whats going to happen to that when you fry it in hot oil do you think? Melt and then burn I imagine? :o
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even bigger shed load in the original (almost 17%!)
Perhaps the base contains no salt?
sugar in a spice mix?...Whats going to happen to that when you fry it in hot oil do you think?
Well if it's added after the garlic ginger and onion it would help caramelise the ingredients and perhaps that's what they want?
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Good point secret santa. One base doesnt (the full one) and one base does (the quick one) contain salt
The sugar isnt part of the original LB spice mix. Its a change that jerry has made as I understand it. I wouldnt be frying sugar with my spices in hot oil. No ways
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The sugar isnt part of the original LB spice mix. Its a change that jerry has made as I understand it.
If I'm adding sugar to a curry I always add it before I add the spices to achieve a small amount of caramelisation. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to do.
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wow, interesting. Sugar (granulated?) at somewhere in the region of 200C? Ill have to think about the consequences of that one.
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Perhaps you missed the part where I said after the ginger, garlic and onion and as you know as long as there's any water around, which will be the case here, the temperature won't rise above 100 celcius.
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But its before you put the spices in right?
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Yes, I know what you're trying to imply. You expect a mass of charcoal, right?
Wrong! It's in there for a few seconds, barely time to even caramelise before the spices go in and a few seconds later some sort of fluid (base, tom puree etc.) will join it, so there's no time for burning.
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No, Im seriously wondering what happens to the sugar secret santa.
The spices will get to well above 100C wont they? Especially if they are added as a powder (in this case with the sugar). Otherwise they wont cook properly? Say 200C? Maybe higher? And sugar melts at 140 to 185C or so? Then decomposes?
But I suppose there is also sugar in the onions anyway? Which will presumably also burn if youre not careful. Interesting. I need to study food science I think :P
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The spices will get to well above 100C wont they?
Not while there's any fluid in the pan they won't. It's an interesting point though because a lot of people purposely add watered down puree, for example, to make sure the spices don't burn and the reason they don't burn is because the temperature is being held back at 100 celcius by the water present.
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Yes, I undertand that santa. But once the water has evaporated, the oil and the spices (and sugar) will rapidly get to well above 100 and probably up to 200 and above wont they? And the spices need that to cook properly dont they? Isnt this when the oil separates (rises to the surface)?
I dont know enough about it. What temperature do spices need to cook properly and release their volatile oils? Much higher than 100C I presume? Interesting, as you say.
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Rai,
very much appreciate your thoughts and input as that's what we here for ie to learn off each other.
It sounds like a shed load of salt in there (almost 9%) although i see there is also an even bigger shed load in the original (almost 17%!)
i must admit one of the reasons for doing so much cooking myself is to be healthy. i only normally put salt on chips and that's it for my diet. unfortunately i find sometimes you can't avoid something and this is one of them. i don' know what the salt does but i feel it's crucial. the 17% is straight from Lynette Baxters book. when you taste the spice mix powder the 1st thing to hit you is the salt. but it does seem to be crucial in getting towards the BIR taste. trying to achieve a balance i've left the salt qty unchanged in the revised recipe ie 9% which is getting more healthy but not loosing the taste it brings(don't forget i'm only using 1 tsp of the spice mix per person so the salt in each curry is small). All of the bases that i've made have around 1 tbsp so again not a lot when divided into 200ml portions.
And sugar in a spice mix? Is that right? Whats going to happen to that when you fry it in hot oil do you think? Melt and then burn I imagine?
i came to this via CA and the development curry work. i used the tomato sauce in the CRO development madras and found the sweetness was ott. i've also tried adding sugar once the base has been added. both give a sort of sickly taste for me which is not like the sweetness i crave in the BIR. i put the spice mix in the tom puree/water paste and i think as Secret Santa suggests adding at this stage brings about some caramalisation and a different type of sweetness. as for the hot temp i did not see any difference in cooking the LB to cooking the LB+ albeit i am using an electric hob on full.
hope this helps a little and please keep posting as the timeline of the RCO site suggest this is a difficult one to crack and we need everyone on their toes and putting their 2p in.
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Isnt this when the oil separates (rises to the surface)?
I get the impression from what you have been saying that you cook in a more traditional style where the spices are cooked at a lower heat for a longer time, thus allowing the oil to separate from the garlic/ginger/onion/spice mix.
BIR style cooking doesn't allow for that. The spice cooking stage is all over in about ten seconds if you're cooking on high heat and the amount of fluid present at this time doesn't really allow any burning of spices or added sugar. Does that make sense?
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Not sure why you get that impression santa. My logic is as follows:
1. You need hot oil (with smoke points generally well up above 200C) to fry the spices sufficently to release their essential oils and flavour. Without reaching these temeperatures (I dont know what temperatures these are?) the spices will remain uncooked and raw tasting or bitter?
2. Prior to this the hot oil may be used to fry any onions (do you really add onions to your main dish santa? Is this bir style?), garlic, ginger, etc. As you say, water will be present which will reduce the temperature of the oil (but to what temperature though, I dont know. Somewhere between 100C and the smoke point of the oil presumably?)
3. Then the oil is definately used to fry the spices (dry or in a paste). Here (at some stage) we need the temperature of the oil to rise sufficiently (certainly above 100C?) to fry the spices regardless of whether its bir or authentic style. The temperature will only rise as the water (from the onions, paste, tomato puree, etc, evaporates, hence the accompanying oil separation?
So I question the sense of adding sugar (to the spice mix) knowing that we want to fry the spices at these high temperatures (up towards 200C or so? I dont know?) for them to release their flavours. If so, I imagine the sugar (in the spice mix) would quickly melt and burn at these temeperatures. If not, the temperature wont be hot enough for the spices to be sufficiently cooked?
Make sense? :-\
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I imagine the sugar (in the spice mix) would quickly melt and burn at these temeperatures
i am pretty sure this technically would happen.
all i can say is when i add sugar to the dish later ie when the base is in i feel i get a sickly sweetness.
when i add to the spice mix i don't get the sickly sweetness. i am only using an electric hob so i don't know what would happen with propane set up. i do heat the pan till the oil is smoking and keep it on full while i cook the garlic/ginger paste, then the spice mix paste (spice mix, curry masala, tom puree all dissolved in 1/2 cup of water). the biggest problem i have is in stopping the pastes from burning by knowing when the water has almost gone. having the sugar in the spice mix makes no obvious difference during the cooking but does seem to solve my aim to get sweetness without the sort of pure sugar sickly taste.
the only answer is to give it a try if you have a problem on sweetness. if not don't use the LB+ version.
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just an update on efforts to find the best mix togo with the LB+ mix.
Made 8 off individual curries (200ml) using the ifindforu base and effectively the same madras recipe but with subtle changes in the spices (ratio of spice mix:curry powder, type of curry powder). Did very similar/same exercise last week using saffron base.
This week I had rajah hot madras curry powder to try out (really spot on). Spice preferences were mixed with 2 votes for 2 tsp LB+ spice mix per portion (ie 100:0) and 2 votes for 1 tsp LB+ spice mix and 1 tsp rajah (ie 50:50). The 100:0 ratio gave sweetness equivalent to BIR/TA where as the 50:50 gave a better depth of spice but lacked sweetness a little.
Conclusion:
1) kids will like LB+ x 2
2) adults will like LB+ x 1 and rajah x 1
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As chris said previously, you dont really have any spices in the LB or LB+ spice mixes to give you any flavour. Just coriander and cumin really. Paprika is there mainly for colour and chilli is there mainly for heat and colour.
I wouldnt expect to get much "depth of spice" or flavour from effectively just two spices jerry
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Rai,
i must admit i've wrestled with this "depth of spice" issue for a long time.
the traditional Indian spice is just not for me (cloves, turmeric, curry leaves and even cumin to an extent) - i hate the taste of pat chapman for example. it's got to be BIR as that's what i've been brought up on.
i had tried various spice combinations trying to gain "depth of spice" but without anyone spice overpowering the rest thinking this would get me closer to BIR taste. i also looked into increasing the spice in the base.
after a long period of making 1 off changes and comparing against a control and then comparing against a real BIR i've come to the conclusion that BIR is not heavily spiced at all.
by using a good base (i include rajver, ifindforu and saffron), using the "toffee" cooking technique and the LB spice mix /rajah curry powder in a 50/50 mix i feel i've got pretty close to the taste i'm after. when compared to the real BIR it was lacking sweetness and by adapting the LB to the LB+ i feel this has been sorted without getting a sickly taste. i believe the only thing missing now is the sort of smokey bbq flavour which i feel i'm going to need a proper wok burner to sort.
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I wouldnt expect to get much "depth of spice" or flavour from effectively just two spices jerry
And yet that's exactly what a lot of authentic dishes use (and sometimes only one or the other), relying instead on the onion, tomato, and meat juices to provide the majority of flavour. Perhaps that's why I'm not really into authentic Indian/pakistani food.
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And yet that's exactly what a lot of authentic dishes use (and sometimes only one or the other)
Really? Well, I never knew that! :o
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Google some authentic recipes, you'll be surprised just how basic some of them are in terms of spicing and relying instead on cooking technique.
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When using the 50:50 LB+ spice mix/rajah hot curry powder I am getting a good tasting curry sauce.
However when comparing side by side with a BIR - 2 things are missing sweetness and smokey flavour
I intend to up the sugar in the LB+ spice mix aiming for more caramalisation to address the missing sweetness (the move from LB to LB+ has helped but not quite there)
I?ve adopted Domi?s method of frying the spices
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2548.msg22523.html#msg22523 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2548.msg22523.html#msg22523)(How Hot do I have to get my Spices)
to address the missing smokey flavour as the method generates a massive amount of ?toffee/choking? smell/smoke (I now have to open a window or door)
The method is ingenious for me as it allows the tom puree and garlic/ginger to be fried without the addition of water (ie making a paste).
Have set out Domi?s method of Frying the spices based on qty?s for one 1 portion of curry (~200ml finish vol)
a) set out the ingredients up front so they can be added quickly and easily
b) measure out spice powders into a cup (1tsp spice mix ie LB+, 1 tsp curry power ie rajah hot ? it?s no hotter than a madras)
c) mix 2 tbsp of tom puree with finely chopped garlic (I use 2 tbsp/4 cloves) (I find the garlic good enough on it?s own but fresh ginger could be added for personal taste). This is the ingenious part as the mixture becomes much quicker to add than the individual ingredients on their own (this was why I originally used water to make a paste)
d) add some vegetable oil (between 1 and 4 tsp, down to personal preference) to frying pan or wok on the cooker and turn on full power (size/weight of pan now no longer matters)(setting 6 on my electric hob)
e) when pan just starts to smoke add the garlic/tom puree mixture and fry until the rawness smell has gone (no longer than 30 secs)
f) then add the spice powders and fry until the toffee/choking smell is produced (very quick, no longer than 15 secs)
g) add 1/2 ladle of base (50/75ml) and fry until slight toffee/choking smell (until most of water in base has evaporated, approx 1 to 2 mins) (optional stage)
h) turn heat down to low simmer (2 on my electric hob) and add rest of base 1 ? ladle (225ml)
i) add pre cooked ingredients, 1 tsp methi (optional) and fresh coriander and simmer for five mins
all including Domi, please add any missing details or other key points.
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Thanks Jerry ;)
I would say that at part c, if you are worried about burning the ingredients, add a little raw finely chopped onion to the mixture as it lowers the heat in the pan a little more and gives you a little more time (and it's easier as when the onion is soft, it's more or less time to throw in your spices. It's an easier version of parker21's method but it's a good stepping stone for the less confident as it gives you a little breathing time. :)
As Jerry says, remember to have your ingredients prepped, you don't get a great deal of time for running about the kitchen lol
Also keep having a sniff when you're cooking but be careful as it's heady stuff :o great for clearing your sinuses though ;D
oops! one more thing, I wouldn't recommend substituting the tomato paste for chopped tinned or fresh tomatoes, it just doesn't have the same effect....in my opinion anyways :-\
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i've finished adapting the LB spice mix and list the final mix:
Balti Spice Mix (LB+2):
20 ml (4tsp) paprika
2.5 ml (1/2 tsp) chilli powder
5 ml (1tsp) salt
20 ml (4 tsp) ground coriander
5ml (1 tsp) ground cumin
20ml (3 tsp) sugar
5ml (1tsp) La Chinata Smoked Paprika
it produces a sweet smokey variation to the original
i use in the ratio 50:50 with rajah hot madras curry powder (it's not hot at all, just a slight nip) with 1 tsp of each going into 1 portion of sauce (200ml finished)
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5ml (1tsp) La Chinata Smoked Paprika
it produces a sweet smokey variation to the original
i use in the ratio 50:50 with rajah hot madras curry powder
You confuse me jerry
1) Im sure birs dont use smoked paprika, in fact ive never ever seen it
2) You say you dont like tumeric, yet its the main ingredient of Rajah curry powder, which you say is "spot on"
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Tamala,
i'm appreciative you're interested in this as i too feel it to be important.
1) i've compared side by side the made madras sauce with a BIR TA. the bought sauce has more sweetness and a slight smokey flavour. i think the BIR smokey flavour is probably down to the heat at which they cook (i also have on my mind the use of reclaimed oil). the smoked paprika is merely a cheat to get a similar flavour and the chinata is the closest i've found.
i'd never seen it until Domi suggested it. i've started adding to my none Asian cooking and it's doing the same trick there (paella for example).
2) i really don't like tumeric. i made the KD sauce for years without it. in any base i make off the forum i reduce it down to 1tsp. i've only started using it since CA and i think Haldi pointed out that u can see it (the yellow oil) in the BIR - so it's clearly used. i've simply minimised how much i use of it so it does not overpower. the rajah curry powder is a real find. for years i tried to make my own and felt that the bought powders would just not come up to the mark. i was wrong they do. it really is good.
as with everything what someone finds nice is not always the case for someone else. i like garlic, onion and tomato based BIR curries. this is what i've tried to copy and i feel it's pretty close.
hope this helps.
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since making the SnS June 08 Madras (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2783.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2783.0))(which is top notch) i've come to the conclusion that i can reduce the amount of tom puree at frying stage.
i am now using 1 tbsp instead of 2 tbsp without any discernable reduction in taste.
in the above post http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2444.msg22679#msg22679 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2444.msg22679#msg22679) c) mix 2 tbsp of tom puree with finely chopped garlic
this should now read 1 tbsp.
I?ve also has the audacity of one of the family complaining that the curry is too sweet. The sweetness is spot on for me comparing to BIR but some may wish to reduce the sugar in the spice mix
So ? ?in Balti Spice Mix (LB+2)? http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2444.msg23108#msg23108 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2444.msg23108#msg23108) u could reduce the sugar from 3 tsp to say 1tsp if u felt it necessary ? I must admit I?m not changing it and will put up with the family insults.
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see link http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg25772#msg25772 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2672.msg25772#msg25772)
i've started adding jaggery to my bases and find i don't need sugar in the spice mix anymore so revised spec is:
Balti Spice Mix (LB+2):
20 ml (4tsp) paprika
2.5 ml (1/2 tsp) chilli powder
5 ml (1tsp) salt
20 ml (4 tsp) ground coriander
5ml (1 tsp) ground cumin
5ml (1tsp) La Chinata Smoked Paprika
it produces a sweet smokey variation to the original
i still use in the ratio 50:50 with rajah hot madras curry powder (1 tsp ea per 200ml portion of curry)
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i have no explanation why (possible salt or emulsification frying technique) but i've reverted back to the original LB spice mix finding it too "smokey" ie i've ditched use of the smoked paprika. i still use the smoked paprika in none curry cooking and it works a treat (ie paella)
i'm also thinking of removing the salt so that i can more accurately control the amount added at cooking time (now using 1/4 tsp per 200ml finished portion). it probably also applies to the chilli as i've started adding it direct at the frying stage (now using 1/4 tsp per 200ml finished portion).
the spec reverts (LB+3):
20 ml (4tsp) paprika
20 ml (4 tsp) ground coriander
5ml (1 tsp) ground cumin
my current madras sauce recipe is at http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3128.msg28019#msg28019 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3128.msg28019#msg28019)