Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions => Topic started by: adriandavidb on March 03, 2008, 11:06 AM
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I've made base sauce many times now, and for some reason, sometimes they end up being rather bitter, although most of the time not!
Just wonder if anyone has any ideas what causes this?
I do know that it is nothing to do with not frying the garlic and ginger in oil before adding to the rest of the base. I have ended up with bitter base having initially boiled the garlic'ginger (a la KD), but also having pre-fried it (a la many other recipies)!
Could it be the type of onion? I use the big Spanish sweet ones, and I've read -here and elsewhere- that smaller cooking onion should be used. I would have thought though, that sweet onions would be LESS likely to produce a bitter result.
I generally stick pretty close to recipies to avoid introducing unintentional variables,
Anyway, just though I'd 'run this one by' everyone....
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Make sure you boil the onions for longer, they almost need to stew to bring out the sweetness.
The best base sauce i have ever made was the one where i forgot about it boiling away and ended up over cooking the onions...brought out the sweetness though.
Stew
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Thanks for that, the last lot of base I made came out bitter, and I must admit that I only gave the onions a total cooking time of one hour or so!
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it's amazing how everyone has some difficulty which others don't. i've never had any bitterness in all the sauces i've made. lots of other problems just like anyone else of course.
i taste everything that goes in unless i already know what it tastes of ie onions.
so in short if it's not hidden in a spice for example i would agree to cook for longer is essential.
i think admin is spot on. i will always aim to over rather than undercook a base (you can always add water back if necessary).
i am 100% sure it's not the type of onion or any need for pre cooking - i just dump it all in the pan.
best wishes on sorting as i can appreciate how much of a bug bear it must be.
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Try the Saffron base. I guarantee, if you follow the recipe exactly it will not be bitter.
SnS ;D
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Try the Saffron base. I guarantee, if you follow the recipe exactly it will not be bitter.
SnS ;D
I'll second that.
I've tried 4 different bases (some several times), and I've never ended up with a bitter result. I'd say Stew's right--you're not cooking it long enough. Made the Saffron again last night, and I noticed that it took at least 20-25 min to really start boiling properly. Unless you're making a small batch (like with 1 onion), I can't see how 1 hr would be nearly enough.
Good luck getting it sorted.
Cheers,
ast
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also check here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1907.0.html
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Unless you're making a small batch (like with 1 onion), I can't see how 1 hr would be nearly enough.
No onion need cooking for more than 20 or 30 mins. One hour is more than long enough - excessive even, although I know the folklore about cooking Italian ragu (bolognaise) sauce, base sauces and some other things for hour after hour. I don't buy it. My base sauces never taste bitter, with around 30 mins cooking.
Regards
George
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Adding a spoon of bicarbonate of soda will ensure your onions breakdown very quickly.
I would expect a BIR to use this if nothing else to aid with cooking times.
Stew
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To ask an obvious question, which seems to have alluded everyone so far, what base recipe are you using adriandavid? Perhaps people would then be better informed to give correct advice?
George, if you strongly doubt its the length of time of cooking the onions, what else do you suggest it could be?
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just one other thought. a recent post a little while ago identified that the oil being used was to blame.
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This subject seems to come up quite regularly.
If you blend, liquidise or grate raw onions it will take much longer to cook out the bitterness. Generally the smaller the onions are chopped, the more chemicals (enzymes) are released, and the longer it takes to sweeten.
Chopping onions with a blunt knife also has the same effect as it tends to smash through the cells (rather than cutting).
In my opinion, for curry gravies it is better to cook (fry or boil) roughly chopped onions (until sweet), then liquidise them.
Also onions (and garlic) should not be fried on high heat as this makes them taste bitter. Use medium - low heat.
Spanish onions also contain a lot more "acidic" liquid than smaller cooking varieties.
SnS ;D
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just one other thought. a recent post a little while ago identified that the oil being used was to blame.
Jerry
Are you referring to this post regarding the use of Pride GM oil?
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2271.msg20430.html#msg20430
SnS ;D
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I know I am brand new, but just to share an experience I once had.
I overdid the frying of my ginger and as I had no more in the house decided to use it. The result was a very bitter taste to the end product.
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smokenspices,
yep. that is the link to the post i was thinking of, many thanks.
i feel your post has pretty much sorted things.
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It's a strange one this. I've had a run of bad base sauces in the past few months.
I made stew's (admin) base a good few nmonths ago now and it turned out bitter which it seems it also did for a good few others that tried it. But of course there were as many (or maybe more) who tried it and found it a great base, totally lacking in bitterness.
I then tried Smopkenspices base (the original unadjusted one) and that had some bitterness to it too.
My latest was the rajver base and I was expecting great things from this as it has had many favourable reviews, but it turned out to be the worst base I've ever made. I actually threw it away when only half finished, something I've never done before, it was just so bitter.
Now I've been racking my brains to see what I'm doing to end up with bitter results, but I just can't fathom it. I'm using exactly the same spices, pots, etc. that I have alway used. The only thing I know I did differently in the last two was use red onions and Tesco value onions, not the white (brown skin) medium sized onions that I would normally use. I'll revisit one of the bases eventually and use white onions and see what happens.
It just seems very odd that after what must be in excess of 100 pots of base sauce made over the years, all without any bitterness, I have three bad results on the trot. All very weird!
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Try the Saffron base again SS, using those little standard cooking onions.
I'm sure you'll have greater success this time. ;)
Interesting reading about onions here
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=75013
Regards
SnS ;D
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I will try the saffron base again but my next one is going to be my standard slightly modified KD base because I know that's always been a winner for me. Now if that comes out bitter, I really will be worried.
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The only thing I know I did differently in the last two was use red onions and Tesco value onions, not the white (brown skin) medium sized onions that I would normally use.
Sounds like you've found the problem. I have only ever used medium sized whites and opt to remove the scum during cooking. This seems to do the trick for me 8)
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Yes it might be the onions, I dare say i'll find out when I get around to doing one of them again. You'll never win me around on the skimming of the scum though. I have never skimmed and (up untill recently) I've never had a bitter base.
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Adriandavidb asks why his base is sometimes bitter. But he doesnt say which recipe he uses - ingredients and procedure. Yet there are, as near as damn it, two following pages (and additional threads) about the bitterness of onions or not!
I really don't see how you can really sensibly comment without knowing which recipe adriandavidb uses?
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As is quite often the case here, one comment on the post can quickly change the overall topic into something quite different.
As bitterness is invariably caused by incorrect cooking of the onion (or garlic), I suppose it's only natural that the topic would head off in that direction!
But you are of course right Rai, we need some answers and confirmations from Adriandavidb.
SnS ;D
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As bitterness is invariably caused by incorrect cooking of the onion (or garlic), I suppose it's only natural that the topic would head off in that direction!
There could be all manner of things at play here, from pan material (aluminium), to onion type, to cooking times, to temperatures, to burning spices, burning onions, burning garlic, buring ginger or anything else you might care to mention.
Unless we know what recipe adriandavidb is using, we just cant really say, with any certainty, can we? ::)
But you are of course right Rai, we need some answers and confirmations from Adriandavidb
Yes, I think Im right too ;)
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There could be all manner of things at play here, from pan material (aluminium), to onion type, to cooking times, to temperatures, to burning spices, burning onions, burning garlic, buring ginger or anything else you might care to mention.
Unless we know what recipe adriandavidb is using, we just cant really say, with any certainty, can we? ::)
Not quite true Rai. We have mentioned here the "not so obvious" problems that can occur.
It is highly unlikely that an aluminium pan would produce bitterness in his gravy (or anyone else's for that matter), as he has already produced successful batches before .. so you can forget that!
BTW many, if not most BIR's use aluminium pans.
If it's the spices, ginger, garlic or onions being burnt, then Adriandavidb would have noticed that, surely. This is an obvious mistake and I really don't think it's even worth mentioning here as we assume members do have some basic cooking skills.
So that only leaves the likely cause which is onion type, cooking time and temperature .. which is exactly what we have been discussing on the previous 2 pages .......
....... unless of course you have your own theory, which of course we can easily place in the "anything else you might care to mention" category.
SnS ;)
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You're chopping your onion coarsely right? If you've started chopping more finely that could explain it...
Another cause could be that you're eating/drinking something sweet before tasting your base, which you didn't before. Sweet / sour / bitter are relative. If you take a swig of Coke then drink some tap water you'll see what I'm talking about.
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hi guys /gls
to sort out the bitterness in relation to the onions add more salt and this brings out the sweetness in them. adding sugar will also bring the saltiness and combat any bitterness. that is how the chef knows what to add at the end of cooking the base sauce. when cooking your onions add salt and cook for about 45-60mins with the lid on, on a gently boil with the oil the smell can be overpowering stir from time to time and do not add too much water as the onions release the own liquid you will smell the change from the raw smell to lovely sweet moreish smell. then add the rest of the vegggies and more hot water just to cover them, and in a separate pan brown some ginger and garlic before adding them to the larger cookng pot. boil for 30 mins or until you can cut through a carrot easily then add the spices and cook for approx 20 mins.blend until smooth then return to the heat add more water to give a runny consistency and boil (rolling boil) for 10 mnis remove any yellow scum from the top regularly and after a short time you will see the oil start to creep across from the edges of the pan simmer this for 60mins?ish and then allow to settle for a couple of hours before using to allow the spices to settle.
hope this helps
regards
gary
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In my experience, unless the bitterness (from onions or garlic) is cooked out, no amount of sugar or salt will counteract that bitter after-taste.
SnS ;D
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Not quite true Rai. We have mentioned here the "not so obvious" problems that can occur.
So that only leaves the likely cause which is onion type, cooking time and temperature .. which is exactly what we have been discussing on the previous 2 pages .......
....... unless of course you have your own theory, which of course we can easily place in the "anything else you might care to mention" category.
They've all been mentioned before so they seem pretty obvious to me ;)
But, face it, we are full of supposition without actually knowing how hes making his base arent we? Knowing that will surely help us better pinpoint the cause?
Acidic ingredients, cooked in an aluminium pan, can cause bitterness according to many peoples reports here. He may change his pan, for all we know, however unlikely it may seem. We dont know because we havent asked and he hasnt elaborated yet
We dont know if he uses tomatoes, and if he does, how much and of what type. Tomatoes can definitely cause bitterness. They are also acidic and can react with aluminium pans.
We dont know if he finely chops (or purees) the onions, garlic and ginger. If he does it can cause bitterness.
We dont know which spices he uses or how much. Too much of some spices can cause bitterness, however unlikely it may seem that he changes this from batch to batch.
We dont know if he fries any spices, in which case he may burn them. Shock horror, it happens to us all
We dont know if he fries the onions. If he does it can cause bitterness.
We dont know if he fries his garlic and ginger (I cant tell from what he wrote?). If he does he can burn them and it can cause bitterness. It happens to us all.
We can arguably presume that adriandavidbs ingredients and procedure are 100% consistent each time he makes a batch. Maybe it is, but I'd be very, very, careful with that assumption. Many people are extremely inconsistent with their approach. It anyway sounds like hes refering to different recipes and therefore different ingredients and procedures?
Face it, its all speculation because we dont know and we cant pretend that we do know until he elaborates on his ingredients and procedure ;)
Only adriandavidb can help us to help himself here by being more specific
BTW many, if not most BIR's use aluminium pans
Is this also true for their big stock pots? Or is it also speculation?
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gary,
appreciate your post. your base is my std as i consistently get my best result using it. i follow exactly and never get any bitterness. your quote
and in a separate pan brown some ginger and garlic before adding them to the larger cooking pot
is of particular interest. do you think yourself that it's worth the extra effort? i ask as i have no idea except that results are spot on without doing so but i don't know if they could be even better.
best wishes, jerry
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Sorry folks, I've not been arround for a week or so to answer your questions, this topic seems to have 'kicked-off' in my absence!!
Firstly, as I stated in my first post, I've had bitter results having bolied the ginger & garlic, BUT also having fried them first. this would indicate to me that the bitterness is nothing to do with burning the garlic and ginger, since this could only occur during frying! I also feel that I'm experienced enough to know if I've burnt something, and I don't think I have.
I DO use an aluminium pot, and was interested to hear about tomato reacting with the metal, something that should have occurred to be before (having trained as a chemist... durhhh!).
I was interested also to read about adding bicarb. I know this is something chip shops do when making 'mushy peas', presumably for the same reason, to help them break down.
I do chop my onions coursely (with a VERY sharp knife) most of the time, however I did once chop them in a food-processor, prior to cooking and blending. This DID produce a bitter result! However I have also had bitterness from coursely chopping!
I use a modified KD base, containing, in addition to her usual ingredients: a small carrot, a pepper, a stick of celery and home made roast chicken stock (prepared using a bouquet garni of peppercorns, bay, star anise and cloves, a la Ali Haydor). Also , as well as 'tarkering' the tinned tomarto, I have done the same thing with the ginger and garlic (this is where I fryed the garlic/ginger, that I mentioned above).
I'm being to suspect two possible causes: firstly the aluminium pot. I now fully intend to get a steel one, the last thing I need is early dementia caused by aluminium plaques in the brain! Aluminium cooking pots have been cited as a cause of medical problems in the past, particularly if they have been used to prepare food that reacts with the metal! I suspect though, that the main cause is the fact that I have either not cooked the onions long enough, although I'm not sure I'm guilty of this, as one hour should be plenty. OR (more likely), I've cooked them on too low a simmer, with the lid on, which has not allowed the volatile bitter chemicals to be driven off adaquately. Perhaps a good roling boil with the lid off next time!
Comments please!
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see here
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2491.msg21705.html#msg21705
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Is this also true for their big stock pots? Or is it also speculation?
No, it's not speculation Rai. Their large cooking pots are often aluminium and they certainly do not fuss about the possiblity of the metal "reacting" with tomatoes - or any other ingredient!
As I said previously, the pan material is extremely unlikely to be the cause of bitterness in any gravy (certainly not to an objectionable concentration).
If cooking tomatoes only, or a tomato based sauce, then yes perhaps a bitterness will occur, but not with the relatively small amounts used in most curry base gravies.
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Their large cooking pots are often aluminium
How often is "often"? How do you know that? How many kitchens have you been in? Have you polled them? Or are you speculating? ;)
and they certainly do not fuss about the possiblity of the metal "reacting" with tomatoes - or any other ingredient!
Again, how do you know that? Have you asked? If so how many have you asked? Or are you speculating? ;)
As I said previously, the pan material is extremely unlikely to be the cause of bitterness in any gravy (certainly not to an objectionable concentration). If cooking tomatoes only, or a tomato based sauce, then yes perhaps a bitterness will occur, but not with the relatively small amounts used in most curry base gravies.
And on what bases do you say that? Others report differently. Have you studied it? Or can you quote some research sources? Or are you just speculating again? ;D
Only pulling your leg, I know you really work for Stock-Pots-R-Us ;)
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Rai, I think you should perhaps be more careful with your tone. I know you're just having some banter but a few of your posts come across borderline offensive. I have, in the past, found myself in a similar position but soon realised that I got on far better when I got to know members a little better, rather than running the risk of needlessly irritating and offending them.
I hope I'm not overstepping my mark :-\
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How often is "often"? How do you know that? How many kitchens have you been in? Have you polled them? Or are you speculating?
1) More than rarely and less than always.
2) Because I speak English and it says so in the dictionary.
3) More than a few, less than many.
4) Yep, I polled all 8500 Indian restaurants in UK. We still ain't having a referendum.
5) I never speculate, I'm an Engineer.
Again, how do you know that? Have you asked? If so how many have you asked? Or are you speculating?
1) I've never met a fussy Indian chef - have you?
2) If you ask an Indian Chef "hello, are you fussy?", it tends to confuse him.
3) See 2 above, but in the past I have confused a few.
4) I never speculate, I'm an Engineer.
And on what bases do you say that? Others report differently. Have you studied it? Or can you quote some research sources? Or are you just speculating again?
1) Are you referring to curry "bases" or did you mean "basis"?
2) When "others" enter into this debate we'll listen to their views (or is that speculation?).
3) I did a degree in "Aluminium Pots and Pans" but failed the oral.
4) http://www.buycatering.com/catering-equipment-prod307-aluminium-cook-pot---casserole-pan-20--.html
5) I never speculate, I'm an Engineer ... again!
SnS ;D
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This thread has progressed to page 4 now, but please note that I've attempted to answer some of the questions at the bottom of page three!
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it's also worth mentioning that the bitterness in some of my batches of base does not seem to be passed on to the finished curries, which I guess makes the whole thing irrelevant!
I don't think this is because the bitter flavours are masked by the other, more dominant, flavours in the finished curry; but rather because the final high temp cooking process drives off any remaining volatile and bitter componants remaining in the base.
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Is this also true for their big stock pots? Or is it also speculation?
No, it's not speculation Rai. Their large cooking pots are often aluminium and they certainly do not fuss about the possiblity of the metal "reacting" with tomatoes - or any other ingredient!
As I said previously, the pan material is extremely unlikely to be the cause of bitterness in any gravy (certainly not to an objectionable concentration).
If cooking tomatoes only, or a tomato based sauce, then yes perhaps a bitterness will occur, but not with the relatively small amounts used in most curry base gravies.
It is also worth noting that reactive aluminium cookware is banned in the UK as well as many other european countries. The aluminium cookware sold here is dipped in some sort of acid which changes the molecular structure - In some sort of electron stabilisation thingy (Chemistry from school is only just fresh in my head)
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Hard Oxide Aluminium
This is a recent development overcoming the disadvantages of plain aluminium which has a soft surface that can be corroded by food acids. The dark grey or black surface of hard oxide aliminium pans is formed by placing the completed aluminium pan in an electro-chemical solution and subjecting it to an electric current. This process changes the molecular structure of the metal and gives a surface which is very hard, impervious to food acids, will not oxidise or corrode and is stick-resistant whilst the pan itself retains the even heating and heat conductivity of aluminium. The hard oxide surface is harder than steel.
;D
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George, if you strongly doubt its the length of time of cooking the onions, what else do you suggest it could be?
I'm no expert of the science of onions or bitterness but my guess is that the cooking time is not a factor, whether it be 20 mins or 2 hrs. If the onions are acidic (if that's what bitterness is) then the acid needs to be removed or neutralised, e.g. by adding a bit of bicarb of soda. I have no idea where any other bitterness could come from in a base sauce.
Regards
George
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George, if you strongly doubt its the length of time of cooking the onions, what else do you suggest it could be?
I'm no expert of the science of onions or bitterness but my guess is that the cooking time is not a factor, whether it be 20 mins or 2 hrs. If the onions are acidic (if that's what bitterness is) then the acid needs to be removed or neutralised, e.g. by adding a bit of bicarb of soda. I have no idea where any other bitterness could come from in a base sauce.
Regards
George
Salt is your neutraliser for Onions. If you add salt to chopped onion it will start reacting almost straight away.. and why does Tomato taste SOOOO good with salt sprinkled on top? The neutral ph is much more apealing to the palate :)
Also lets make the distinction of bitterness and sourness (which is the tounges ability to taste acidity).
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Salt is your neutraliser for Onions. If you add salt to chopped onion it will start reacting almost straight away..
Any idea what the chemical reaction is?
NaCl + what in the onions? = what neutalised chemical(s) and/or by-product(s)?
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Further to my post earlier in this thread about a run of bitter bases I'd had, I've just brewed up a small batch of slightly modified KD base and it turned out great. This was made with the Tesco value onions which I'd used in one of the other bases and which I thought might be the source of the bitterness, but apparently not.
The one thing I always do with this modified KD base is to fry the onion, garlic and ginger on low heat, and in loads of oil, for about 15 minutes and I'm convinced that this is what is preventing any bitterness showing through. The other bases I've tried (except admin's I think) tend to boil the onions and this is where I think the bitterness is coming in.
Anyway, I'm glad the KD base turned out OK or I would have been completely stumped.
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The other bases I've tried (except admin's I think) tend to boil the onions and this is where I think the bitterness is coming in.
Boiling an onion (whole or coarsely chopped), in water (or watery stock) produces the sweetest of all the onion cooking methods (including sauteing).
If a gravy recipe requires the onion to be boiled (as most do), bitterness can be avoided by
a) chopping the onion coarsely and not smashing it to bits in a blender
b) ensuring the gravy is not too thick (enough water) to enable boiling at 100 degrees C
c) maintain that temperature throughout the gravy by rigorous simmering (enough heat), covered
d) stirring to ensure even temperature distribution
SnS ;D
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Boiling an onion (whole or coarsely chopped), in water (or watery stock) produces the sweetest of all the onion cooking methods (including sauteing).
Would you care to prove that?
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Boiling an onion (whole or coarsely chopped), in water (or watery stock) produces the sweetest of all the onion cooking methods (including sauteing).
Would you care to prove that?
Try it.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2491.0.html
Essential cooking principles SS
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Rai, I think you should perhaps be more careful with your tone. I know you're just having some banter but a few of your posts come across borderline offensive
Now now bobby, Im almost taking offence at that ;)
I think youre mistaking valid (but arguably blunt) points as being offensive? If so, the problem may lie with you (or others) rather than with me. My view is that people have been speculating too much as to the causes without attempting to understand the problem sufficiently. I felt it needed to be said ;)
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Now now bobby, Im almost taking offence at that ;)
I find it offensive you finding me offensive!
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I hope you dont find this too offensive bobby, but I think this is really interesting.
A good chef friend of mine (shes a member here but declines to post, I think shes shy ;)) was telling me that one of the first things they are taught is to not use disimilar metals (eg and aluminum pot and a stainless steel spoon).
She mentioned that if you do this with, say, bechamel sauce or custard, you quite likely end up with a disgusting grey colour.
Presumably its because an electolytic cell (battery) is set up between the two disimilar metals. I was suprised that the reaction rate is so high but I guess its to do with the elevated temperatures.
Just goes to show huh? Maybe its not just onions that can cause bitterness in the base? ;)
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I was interested also to read about adding bicarb. I know this is something chip shops do when making 'mushy peas', presumably for the same reason, to help them break down.
Apparently this was done in olden days more so to preserve the colour of the vegetables (like a colour fixer actually). However it was also found to destroy vitamins and therefore fell into disuse. My good chef friend also alerted me to this interesting fact.
http://www.all-about-cooking.com/bicarbonate_of_soda.html
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Thanks Raj, very interesting; i probably won't use it in a base in that case!
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I have also found that if you do not remove that yellow stalk in the onion, ther
can be bitterness.I am still undecided about tinned tomatoes. :-\
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Salt is your neutraliser for Onions. If you add salt to chopped onion it will start reacting almost straight away..
Any idea what the chemical reaction is?
NaCl + what in the onions? = what neutalised chemical(s) and/or by-product(s)?
I dont think there is a chemical ("neutralising") reaction george? I think it just physically masks the bitterness from your taste buds by making it more salty?
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I dont think there is a chemical ("neutralising") reaction george?
No, there is definitely a neutralising effect going on but it's hugely complicated. The chemistry isn't fully understood even by the chemists but, in essence the sulphur compounds (acids) get converted to salts, and I don't pretend to understand the full process which is why I didn't answer the question when I first saw it posted.
So I suppose the laymans answer to your question George is NaCl + sulphur based acids = salts + water
It's further complicated by the fact that salt is usually not pure but also contains things like anti-caking agents to maintain the free flow.
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Are you sure about that santa? So youre saying (but not in laymans terms for sure) that the salt is acting as a base to react with the acids to producse a different salt plus water? Not sure about that santa, not sure at all :-\
I thought it was a sensory thing. The taste buds detect the saltiness which disguises the bitterness
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So youre saying...that the salt is acting as a base to react with the acids to producse a different salt plus water?
It's an extreme oversimplification but yes that is approximately the end result, and I repeat, I don't profess to understand the whole process, expecially when chemists themselves don't. The point is though that the acids (there are several) ARE being neutralised by the addition of salt. That said, I don't doubt that your point that the salt also has a masking effect has some truth to it too.
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I'd be very interested to fine out more about this 'neutralization', do you mave any references for this SS?
I'd also assumed that maybe the salt just masked the bitterness, I don't disbelieve you but I'd like to find out more!
Assuming that any bittereness might be caused by the same irritant chemical (or perhaps its precurser) that causes tears when fresh onions are chopped up (and it may not be). I'd have thought that this chemical was either distroyed by the heat of the cooking process, or volatilizes during cooking. It is presumably a fairly volatile substance anyway, since it it reaches the eyes so fast!
Much of the stuff I've read on this thread had suggested to me that bitterenss may have resulted from insufficient cooking time, or perhaps that simmering too gentley with the lid on had not allowed these compounds to evaporate off.
One other 'variable' I've tried is how finely I slice the onions before cooking. I immagine damage to the onion either releases the irritant or activates an enzyme that causes its formation from a precurser. It could work either of two ways: course chopping could result in more irritant or precurser remaining in the onion, before cooking. Fine chopping could be said to increse the release of (or generation of) more of the irritant and thus 'use-up' some of its precurser before cooking. It all rather depends on what causes the bitterness. Is it the irritant sulphur-containing organic compound released by chopping? Is it the precurser to this compound (if there is one) contained in the 'unchopped' onion? Or maybe it's something else entirely!
What I can say is, in my opinion, it makes absolutely no difference to the result how finely chopped the onion is before cooking!
What I might try next time, is to boil by base in a wider pan, which would expose a greater surface area of boiling liquid to the air, perhaps this could get rid of these volatile irritants more effectively by providing a greater area for their evaporation. Assumimg, of course, that bitterenss has anything to do with this in the first place!
Anyway, enough rambling; I'm very interested to find out more about this salt business!
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Am I just rubbing it in, or does anyone else simply not have this problem? My base sauces have just never turned out bitter! :-\ I bet since I've said that now...
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What's your favorite base recipe BB?
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My base sauces have just never turned out bitter!
Yeah, I wouldn't get too cocky Bobby. As I said in another post, I've easily made in excess of 100 pots of base sauce over the years, and then I had a run of bitter bases (3 in a row). I still don't know why.
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I'd be very interested to fine out more about this 'neutralization', do you mave any references for this SS?
I originally got the info from a PhD thesis. The actual thesis was mostly incomprehensible but the Abstract was fairly readable. I've tried to find it on the web again and I can't (it was a couple of years ago when I last saw it).
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If it's bitter, add salt.....I've never had a bitter base either, maybe that's because I always add a little salt to my onion? I have had sour results when using passata :-\ which salting won't help as sugar is needed to counter sourness.
This article is about the effect of salt on bitterness....
http://shopping.guardian.co.uk/food/story/0,,1044951,00.html
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i'm with bobby on this one and sit perched up high. never had a bitter sauce.
my experiences as follows to help a little:
1) salt is key - don't need a lot mind you 1 to 2 tsp ish (masking the taste has me lol and lol and lol)
2) cooking time/intensity is crucial - smell and taste the base all the way through cooking - i seriously worry about there being none left sometimes. don't stop cooking the onions until that raw smell & taste has gone
3) size does matter - cut into 1/4'rs only (otherwise cut them smaller cook em longer)
4) pan surface area seems to make a difference on cooking time - squat wide pan best
5) need to give them a few stirs during cooking
6 add plenty of olive oil (sorry could not resist the joke)
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masking the taste has me lol and lol and lol
Sorry jerry, i think might find that he who laughs last might laugh loudest in this case then.
I'm thinking in terms of the five basic taste sensors. Many people seem to think that salt counteracting bitterness is biological in this regard. That is "masking" rather than chemical in nature. I suggest that you maybe check it out a bit further before you lol too much?
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he who laughs last might laugh loudest in this case
you've got me in stitches now.
i suppose i try to be too healthy some times for example i don't put extra salt into any of my cooking except indian and making bread. i also reserve sprinkling of salt to chips only. what i am saying is my taste buds go into alarm as soon as they so much as smell a bit of salt. so masking the taste is clearly well ott for me.
there are some instances when you need salt ie making bread. getting the bitterness out of onions is another must use for me.
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you've got me in stitches now
Sorry jerry, for the life of me i still cant work out what it is that youre laughing at?
I thought you were laughing at my suggestion that the salt masks the taste of bitterness (rather than by neutralising any acids present)? :-\
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Rai,
sorry. it was the masking that initially got me going. but then i realised you were having a good laugh as well and that got me going a 2nd time.
all the best.
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Sorry to resurrect this topic but every base Ive made (SNS, darth and Safron as well as others numerous times) has been bitter. I have a stainless steel Karachi, wooden spoon so its not metal.
I suffer from Extreme Hypertension (High blood pressure) so adding loads of salt is out the question. Any salt I use is 'Low Salt' variety. Could this be the cause?
Could it be the fluoride in our water up here in the north?
If so what can I do to sweeten and remove the bitterness other than salt?
Some people mention cooking for longer. Has anyone tried it in a slow cooker for say 8 to 10 hours?
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makum101,
it's a v.good topic. u don't need "loads" of salt but i'm pretty sure it's a key ingredient and although we have low salt i would not use it in a curry. i use 1 tsp per 800 g onion and it works well. i also cook (simmer) the base for at least 3 hrs (2 hrs lid on, blend, 1+ hrs lid off, adding back water to maintain the initial blended volume).
i'm up north so it's not the fluoride.
i had it in my mind a while back that my bases were not sweet enough. i've never had a bitter base though and have made SNS & Saffron. at the time i started adding Jaggery {palm sugar} following ifindforu's prompt. i tried several amounts and ended up using 1 off sugar lump size per 800g onion (~10mm cube). at some point i found i did not need it and have stopped using it. it did work however as a sticking plaster.
i also use anis as a whole spice which i feel has some effect on the sweetness of the onion (1 off per 800g onion taking it out before blending).
i only ever use bog std onions ie brown and only boil them. i don't cut them up small (1/4's).
i also limit the amount of initial water that i add (for the lid on stage). 20% of the onion by volume (300ml per 800g onion). i then add the extra water after blending. i feel by limiting the water in the earlier stage it helps with the sweetness. i fully believe this is not done by BIR's and therefore not a necessity. nevertheless it's a further option to consider.
i can probably find the relevant links if u need.
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Hi makum101.
It might help to fry/saute the onions before adding the rest of the ingredients. Use a stock pot or pan with a very tight fitting lid and fry the onions on a med/high heat for a few minutes then turn the heat down as low as it will go, put the lid on and let them stew in their own juices for about 20 mins or so, stirring occasionally so they don't catch and then proceed as per whatever recipe you are making. HTH.
Regards
CoR
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Hi Makum101
I can't tell you why you are getting bitter bases but a while ago now I had a really bad base making time. Every base I made turned out bitter and yet I was using the same ingredients, utensils, water etc. To this day I don't know what caused it and prior to that unfortunate period I had never made a bitter base. So perhaps you may just have to give it time and it will fix itself! :-\
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Makum101,
CoR has a very good point which i'd overlooked - oil. i'm convinced for the boiling only method u do need a decent amount of oil in the pot. there is a balance though as too much oil in the base is not good either.
i aim for 7% oil in the finished base volume or 14% of the onion wt ie ~100ml in 800g onion. trouble is for me i add extra oil to use it for cooking so don't know where the cut off is for helping to cook the onions.
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Having started this thread, a while back now, I feel I have to meekly admit that I found out why my bases were bitter and it was nothing to do with onions!
Too much ginger was the problem, or possibly ginger that was not in some why 'ripe' or in tip top condition???
I cut back on the ginger and now everything's fine!
Worth a try......
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I came across the bitterness quite frequently, but in my case it turned out to be not frying the onions in hot enough oil before the boiling stages of cooking my base which is based on Darth's base. I don't think of it as biterness though, more a 'harshness' that catches you at the back of your nose.
If you think about frying onions for a burger or hot dog, there is never any harshness, just lovely oily sweet fried onions, so i concluded you have to fry them at quite a high heat and in small batches before adding them to the boiling pan.
Just my experience.
steve
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Hi BHB (Steve)
Yes it could be the 'uncooked' onions giving that 'bitter/harshness' but it is not necessary to fry onions on high heat. Onions should be fried gently (low or medium heat) for a longer period so that the liquid evaporates - at which point the onions will change colour (brown) very quickly. High heat/short time can easily burn them - and you will also have a very bitter/harsh taste.
When frying onions - before moving on to the boilng stage (adding liquids), I always check the onion for 'sweetness'.
also see here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2491.msg21705#msg21705
SnS ;)