Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Sauce, Curry Base , Curry Gravy Recipes, Secret Curry Base => Topic started by: SnS on April 18, 2008, 04:04 PM
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Added by Admin
Here is the recipe in its entirety.
Base Sauce
Use any good recipe for chicken stock if you need one please ask as I have one for everyday and one for chinese dishes.
Roughly 2.5 pts chicken stock - I didnt measure this but have topped pan to approx level and measured
400g Thinly sliced onions
200g Carrots chopped
20g Garlic Puree bottled from Indian Supermarket
10g Ginger Puree as above
10ml Cumin Ground
10ml Coriander ground
10ml Turmeric powder
10ml Paprika Natco or Rajah if I remember right
1 Large stick celery sliced
250g Butter
1. Turn butter into ghee by gently melting and passing through muslin or tea towelto remove solids.
2. Mic the cumin,coriander,turmeric, and paprike with water to get a nice not too thick paste.
3. Put wok on high heat and add about 180g ghee.
4. Add sliced onions and stir fry until soft about 7 mins
5. Add the chopped carrots and continue to stir fry until you can just see the onions starting to caramellise about 5 mins.
6. Add garlic, ginger and spice mix and stir fry without burning for about 1 min until the smell gets more fragrant.
7. Add celery and stock and bring to the boil.
8. Turn heat down and simmer until celery is softened about 20 mins - you should notice the ghee is now floating on the top.
9. Remove from heat and blitz so there are no lumps remaining.
10. At this stage I split the sauce into 2 pots there was in total 1.25 litres of sauce - I added 80g blitzed chopped tomatoes to one of the pans.
11 Bring both saucepans to boil and simmer until ghee starts to separate add water as necessary to achieve a consistency such that if you dip a spoon in the back it isnt quite coated
12 Remove from heat - you should notice that you get a lot less separation of the ghee.
13. Remove scum from surface if you wish - I didnt as I was a bit rushed
Sauce is complete
Moved from New Base Gravy from visit to Saffron by SnS
What a load of twaddle you guys are talking. I want you to step back from all this rubbish talked for a second and peruse your own navels. Base, gravy, sauce what ever you want to call it is a very simple concoction. It will be different in almost every curry house in the world. But it will taste something like a curry in the final dish. Wherever I have travelled throughout Britain and Europe I have always stopped to sample the local curry house fare and without fail they have tasted like some sort of curry which can be categorised as good, average or different from normal UK or wouldn't try again.
Now lets look at the recipes that have been submitted to this board for curry bases over the years. They consist of vegetable soup, generally ginger/garlic puree, spices in various proportions and oil.
Now if I were an Indian Restaurant owner I would be looking to create what I would call a generic vegetable soup using readily available cheap vegetables. So in the UK what are the cheap vegetables? Onions bought by the sack, potatoes bought by the sack and carrots bought by the sack. Total cost of a sack weighing 25Kgs of each no more than ?15. Thats a lot of soup. 75Kg plus water plus oil/ghee. The other cheap commodity is of course chopped tomatoes in tins.
My wife was recently on a weight watchers diet and one of the staples of the diet was a "eat as much as you like vegetable soup" made strangely using most of the above ingredients. Did it taste good - Yes.
Now I put to you that the difference in "taste" from one curry house to the next and the quality of the final curry depends on this soup mix and the mix of the spices and herbs used to produce the final base sauce plus the quality of oil/ghee used.
So lets look at the soup first.
Quantity of Onions
Quantity of Carrots
Quantity of Potatoes
Tomatoes - if i wanted a slightly different flavour to the soup.
1. To make a weight watchers soup I would throw all the chopped ingredients into a pan and boil until cooked. Puree half the mixture and season to personal taste. To change the flavour I would perhaps add some tomatoes.
2. To make a good soup to restaurant standard I would first soften the onions frying in a little oil or butter (could be Ghee)add the carrots to the oil, fry for a few more minutes then add some vegetable or chicken stock and the potatoes. Puree half and season to taste. You have then got a reasonable quality soup. Especially if you add a few herbs as well.
Most Indian Restaurants would adopt method 1. above to make their soup - chuck everything in puree it add spices etc quick and easy.
Quality restaurants however would probably use method 2 to produce a deeper more refined taste.
Now lets look at how we I believe should produce a curry base sauce.
Take your choice of soup recipe and experiment with it until you have a achieved the best soup you can with no garlic/ginger or added spices other than salt and pepper.
We will call this the base soup - try making it with Ghee rather than vegetable oil - you will find that you get a much richer taste. Now lets make the curry sauce which we will make generic.
Firstly add your oil or ghee to your pan on medium heat - you can add as much or as little as you like at this stage depending on how much oil you want at the end.
Add your onions and soften and then your ginger and garlic being careful not to burn the garlic which will impart a bitter taste to the final base.
Now add your spices with a little water - I have found that equal quantities of ground coriander,ground cumin,sweet paprika - not smoked, and turmeric work well.
Stir fry for around 30 secs or so until the aroma becomes more intense. Add your carrots (if not frying with onions) and potatoes and other vegetables if using. Top up pot to your desired level (based on vegetable soup recipe )with water or even better stock - simmer until mushy.
Puree the lot add back to pan and top up with water or stock to a thin consistency bring to the boil and simmer without a lid until oil starts to separate from curry soup.
Turn off soup and skim off the scum formed on top - there is always more if you use tomatoes.
You are now ready to make your deluxe curry which should be better than the majority of take aways depending on the recipe used from this board.
I would be very surprised if expensive ingredients such as peppers are added to the base sauce mix as the majority of Indian Restaurant owners are worse than the Scots for keeping hold of their hard earned cash.
A couple of other tips for cooking curries which I always use:
Precook your meat depending on the cut
chicken breast - cube and add to pan - just cover in water with no salt added bring to the boil turn off after 3-4 minutes and leave in pan - by the time you have prepared your sauce this will be cooked/ slightly under it will finish cooking in the sauce.
Bone In Chicken as above but allow 10 mins boiling time - do this for Chinese cooking as well
Use the leftover water as stock to adjust the thickness of the curry sauce
Pork Cubes as per chicken breast - pork shouldn't be overcooked
Beef/Lamb - unless a really tender cut - (but I normally use neck or shin for extra flavour) slow cooker for a minimum of 2 hours just covered in water. Cook until meat melts in your mouth.
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Quote from: currytester on Today at 10:19:22 AM
What a load of twaddle you guys are talking.
Mmm I cant help to think that your post is going to raise a few eyebrows!, of coarse this is your humble opinion..
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Currytester,
you've lost me on this.
i am very happy to step back but what do we need to ponder.
have u tried any of the bases on the site.
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Yes I have tested most of the curry bases on the site - and to be fair the recipes provided have in general produced a fairly decent curry. Yes some have more appeal than others and some are more for mild dishes or hot dishes.
But I was going through my recipe books for base sauce this morning trying to decide which one I was going to use when I decided to do a comparison. I looked at curry queens, Darth's Base, ifindforu's original base without coconut,generic curry sauce - interesting one that!, and many others.
If you take out the spices ginger and garlic you end up with a basic Onion soup type recipe with the other vege added for "stock purposes" to help improve the texture, consistency or taste.
So my point is this - step 1 make a soup that you wouldnt mind eating on its own without the garlic and ginger and spices - if it tastes good now then the curry stands a good chance of tasting good. Once this recipe is perfected start over and make your curry base add your garlic and ginger in a 2:1 or 1:1 ratio as per Saffron base. Then add your 4 spices in equal measures.
Then you have curried onion soup base gravy that should be better than your local bir takeaway.
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hi ct
you seem to know it all, if it is so simple then why is this site and site no2 doing so well if it all about making the right "generic "( hate that word) soup. why has mr chapman made loads of money and yet still people write books about the subject which is as you say all about the making of this simple soup. if you know it all then how did you end up looking for a site like this. it seems that you have no need.
we all know we can make superior replicas than most Bir restaurants but the reason for this site is about making the curries like you get at favourite curryhouse you know the ones the ones that make you want to eat it again and again. we have heard it all before from the ultimate curry base to 10 years of experience...... and not to mention the posting of people that have been getting demos from restaurants where the real discoveries and experiences are found.
so if soup is where the answer is why bother just open a can of campbells/heinz no i know what about a big soup after all they have big chunks.
so what is your "simple" suggestion for chicken tikka masala or vindaloo or madras i know do you have a recipe for a simple balti garlic chilli chicken tikka masala?
i'm sorry to anyone who is offended by this post but trying to recreate bir curries isnot so simple and this site and every other site new or old (in2curry RIP) is/are the reasons why!
kind regards and welcome to the best BIR curry site on the web
just a simple BIR curry lover
gary
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hi ct
you seem to know it all, if it is so simple then why is this site and site no2 doing so well if it all about making the right "generic "( hate that word) soup. why has mr chapman made loads of money and yet still people write books about the subject which is as you say all about the making of this simple soup. if you know it all then how did you end up looking for a site like this. it seems that you have no need.
we all know we can make superior replicas than most Bir restaurants but the reason for this site is about making the curries like you get at favourite curryhouse you know the ones the ones that make you want to eat it again and again. we have heard it all before from the ultimate curry base to 10 years of experience...... and not to mention the posting of people that have been getting demos from restaurants where the real discoveries and experiences are found.
so if soup is where the answer is why bother just open a can of campbells/heinz no i know what about a big soup after all they have big chunks.
so what is your "simple" suggestion for chicken tikka masala or vindaloo or madras i know do you have a recipe for a simple balti garlic chilli chicken tikka masala?
i'm sorry to anyone who is offended by this post but trying to recreate bir curries isnot so simple and this site and every other site new or old (in2curry RIP) is/are the reasons why!
kind regards and welcome to the best BIR curry site on the web
just a simple BIR curry lover
gary
I would 2nd that.. if i buy or make the best veg/onion soup in the world and added Indian spices this would not equal a good base gravy.. it would just be mulligatawny soup!
Pretty sure we've discussed this one before.
I know this has been moved once already but probably best in the lets talk curry section.
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The point I am trying to make I suppose is that if you check through most of the base sauce recipes you will find the same or similar ingredients used in each one perhaps with a bit of this and that added.
I have tried and tested most of the base sauces over an extended period of time having started with the curry secret base and used exactly the same curry recipe to test them. My findings are as I describe there is a very marginal difference between "the taste". Today I have tried a comparison between 2 bases Saffron and another - one with chopped tomatoes and one without - the one with suited my taste (or the recipe I am using) slightly better than the one without.The difference was very marginal.
I like you have been striving to make the perfect BIR curry in my case for over 20 years. This site has probably the best and most accurate recipes for stimulating the curry lovers tastebuds. As you can see from the following recipes they all use a version of Onion soup - one even gets it from a can - Check Saffron,New base Sauce recipe (with tomatoes),Rajver (with tomatoes), UB's (lots of extra bits), KD's, Darth's Madras etc etc.
So have a look for yourself - you will see the similarity between recipes but you have to step back to do so.
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So my point is this - step 1 make a soup that you wouldnt mind eating on its own without the garlic and ginger and spices - if it tastes good now then the curry stands a good chance of tasting good.
You have certainly started a lively debate!!
But this quoted point, is extremely valid
The best curry house round here makes a gravy to die for
I can't make it, although I know all the ingredients
It's really simple too
Basically:- Onions, oil,salt & spice
However I would point out that there is no canned or packeted soup that has anything like this flavour either.
Attaining this flavour is the goal for many people on this site
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Currytester,
i do see what u mean and think it's the way the message is coming across that's getting the crossed wires.
i too made KD's for many years. since joining cro i feel i've made a significant step change in taste. i'd probably put the step increase down to say 50% base, spices 25% and 25% technique.
in trying out the cro bases i've come to the conclusion that there is a certain threshold that a base needs to achieve and once this is reached it's impact going forwards on the final dish is limited (spice and technique takeover).
for more info see http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2585.msg22760.html#msg22760 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2585.msg22760.html#msg22760)
so onto my question
step 1 - if it tastes good now then the curry stands a good chance of tasting good.
i've settled on rajver, saffron and ifindforu which taste fantastic.
so is step 1 only aimed at those who are not happy with their adopted base or do you believe there is something missing or to be gained.
i'm not sure that there is - on a side by side comparison against my local BIR TA (which is a 10) only shows up a lack of sweetness and smokey flavour.
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In reality all I wanted to do with my post is bring to everyones attention that the base sauces on this site are probably representative of the variations between curry houses and their own recipe for base sauce.
I would not suggest for one second that you should use a canned soup for production although according to one recipe for a quick curry base it is said to work.
The other point is that they all invariably use vegetables in various quantities.
So the format for a base sauce is quite simple.
Garlic/Ginger mix
Vegetable soup - various recipes contained in existing bases
Various proportions of standard spices
Additions such as tomatoes, peppers and other spices.
Today I am going to carry out a trial for you all.
The chicken stock is already on the go and will be ready in 2 hrs time.
Two chicken carcasses, two carrots, one onion, 10 peppercorns, 4 bay leaves - chicken fried before boiling - covered with water.
I will then use a cut down version of Saffrons base to establish the spice mix and proportions of garlic and ginger. I will then make a vegetable soup (onion based) using my stated method and using ghee.
So I will either shoot myself in the foot or have the recipe. Whichever to me it doesnt matter. The search for perfection continues.
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i think i'm now with it ok.
just to test that i am, i presume u are going to use the chicken stock (home made & sounds pretty good) in place of water.
i hope u don't mind me asking but please write down your recipe as you go so u can post it if all goes well. best of luck on the experiment.
also if i could push it a little further - how will u know if u have the recipe. a brief outline of what comparison would help my understanding.
the chicken stock idea is quite interesting to me for several reasons
1) BIR's would have the carcases at hand (i think)
2) the use of general purpose seasoning in the ifindforu had a surprising effect (+ve) and probably has a profound effect on the title of what we are all making ie soup or onion base ;D
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The chicken stock is now done and all the ingredients have now been prepared and cooked according to my original plan using ghee. The stock has been added and the base is now bubbling away quite happily. Every step has been documented and photographed and measured to the gram.
The comparison will be three fold
1. Taste test against the saffron base which is still on the stove.
2. Taste test against the same new base with added chopped tomatoes
3. Taste test against yesterday's curry (Balti)
Theory
By cooking the onions and carrots in ghee until caramellisation just starts should release the natural sugars contained in the onions and carrots. The addition of the celery should add a more complete flavour. By frying the garlic and ginger this should remove the rawness of flavour you get and also the bitterness from them.
By frying the spices this should improve the fragrance and colour and produce slightly more depth of flavour.
The chicken stock will add more richness to the flavour. I also left the fat on the stock when it was added. This should add more flavour to the ghee when it separates.
The base I am expecting to produce should be slightly sweeter and much more flavoursome than those previously tried.
What I am hoping for is a base that will suit all types of curry - hopefully for everything from korma to phall depending on the additions at the next stage of cooking.
By the way no salt has been added at all at this stage - I feel that you should season each dish individually to your own taste.
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i think i'm now with it ok.
just to test that i am, i presume u are going to use the chicken stock (home made & sounds pretty good) in place of water.
i hope u don't mind me asking but please write down your recipe as you go so u can post it if all goes well. best of luck on the experiment.
also if i could push it a little further - how will u know if u have the recipe. a brief outline of what comparison would help my understanding.
the chicken stock idea is quite interesting to me for several reasons
1) BIR's would have the carcases at hand (i think)
2) the use of general purpose seasoning in the ifindforu had a surprising effect (+ve) and probably has a profound effect on the title of what we are all making ie soup or onion base ;D
Chicken stock idea is nonsense. They are unlikely to make seperate vegetarian bases.
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Hi Curry Tester
I agree with Chris. If your aim is to produce a vegetable soup (stock or gravy), perhaps water should of been used instead of the chicken stock. :o
I'm sure the BIR kitchens wouldn't use chicken stock in their main stock base either (although I do know some will include green peppers).
Look forward to seeing the results. ;)
Regards
SnS
;D
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Good point on the chicken stock. Hadnt thought of the vege's I must admit but for today stock is stock I am afraid. However if this is successful - and I have to say its looking good at the moment - I will look at some tweaks to improve the veg stock quality.
Some interesting points raised by other people - I cant smell a thing as the house probably still smells of yesterdays curry.
If the base coats the back of a spoon it is too thick to release the oil to the surface.
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CurryTester.
feel your very thorough and looking fwd to result.
the veggie argument does not bode well with me - stick to the chicken stock.
any particular reason for absence of green pepper or are u looking to start basic and work up. Would also appreciate thoughts on use of garam in the base.
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Chicken stock idea is nonsense. They are unlikely to make seperate vegetarian bases.
I have seen the base made at four places
There was no chicken stock used
Some places do use it (see Mark J's base post) but the base is not a consistant recipe
Green peppers & carrots are variables too
The chicken arrives, at takeaways, in two forms:-
Breast and "on the bone" drumsticks
It is never frozen and is halal meat
So there is no boiling carcasses at these places
I think that was old style
1990's and previous
I have been given recipes where it is used (see chicken jelly)
Do you remember those places that would cook you a whole tandoori chicken but you needed to give them 24 hours notice?
Nowhere, round here, does that now
That was the 80's and 90's
I reckon they were using a lot of chicken stock then
All the same, I think Currytester's recipes might still turn up trumps
I'm keen to hear his results
I hope he posts soon
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Unfortunately yesterday after completing the base sauce preparation I had to go out - last rugby match of the season. Went to Aldis on way back to pick up some chili's and they were out so no Balti.
A quick look in fridge revealed an unopened pack of mushrooms so I decided on a Chicken Patia with mushrooms - for years one of my favourites with mushrooms and bindhi.
Also something that I had never reproduced with the right taste at home.
Now it was time to do a taste test on the the three sauces.
First observation - the colours were very similar with the one with added tomato's looking just vaguely darker. Expected
Instead of oil on the surface of the new bases I had set ghee - but interestingly nowhere as much as what had been used in the cooking process.
The saffron I had made the day previously had released virtually all of the oil.
Tasting the saffron to me it tastes like a raw oniony garlic sauce very slightly tart and also quite salty. It instantly reminded me of the taste I had probably over 10 years ago when making the curry secret stage 1 base. I instantly decided if I were to make the saffron again I would leave out the salt or leave it as it is and use it for the pre-cooking meat stage as per the curry secret method. I will go on to this later.
New Base without tomato tasted velvety smooth - a sauce that I could almost eat on its own - no bitterness just a hint of ghee in the background no major flavour discernible or overpowering it.
New base with tomato tasted slightly fuller but with a slightly bitter after taste.
I concluded the following from the look and taste test:
The 2 new bases were edible on their own. Straight out of the pan. The saffron base needed futher cooking and flavourings to make it a complete item and remove the raw taste. See next post for curry results
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I note the previous post by Haldi. You are absolutely correct in your observations as to how the Takeaways receive their meat. Two of my locals that I used for probably 15 years or more had walkthrough kitchens and I had a good relationship with both. Always on the side there was pre-cooked chicken in cubes and tandori marinated joints on the bone. Neither restaurant offered the full tandoori chicken that you can remember from the 80's and 90's. UNfortunately the one I used the most has now closed down.
The Curry Test
I decided that I would just use the new base without the added tomato's.
Unfortunately by this time I was starving so forgot to take the photos. But I did write down the recipe albeit not as accurately as before but if anybody's interested I will make again and measure to the gram.
Here is the method I used to make my 15 mins Patia.
Grabbed a packet of Lidl basmati rice and poured enough for three into sieve. I then washed thoroughly under the cold tap and set aside.
Put on Oven and set to 200
Filled kettle and put on to boil.
Took two breasts of chicken and cut into roughly 1" cubes. Sliced 10 closed cup mushrooms
Chopped 1/2 a green pepper
Got spices out of cupboard ready to go plus tomato puree double concentrate.
Kettle had now boiled so added chicken to a small saucepan and poured on the boiling water. Put on high heat to bring to boil and stir once then brought down to simmer.
Put wok on burner to high heat and added ghee. Chicken is now simmering so I turned off and set aside to cook on its own.
Added green peppers to wok and stir fried for around 3-5 mins. Then added mushrooms and stir fried for two mins. Filled large pan with boiling water and added the rice and 1.5 tbsp sugar and reduced to simmer. Put two lidl nan breads in oven.
Added 2 tsp tomato puree to wok and stir fried around 30 secs added 2 tsp special spice mix and stir fried for 30 secs added 3 full ladles of new base and brought to boiling point. Added chicken to wok plus a good pinch dried methi, couple of large pinches sea salt, 3 tbsp of sugar 2.5 tbsp lemon juice. 1/2 tsp of extra hot chili powder.
Removed rice and drained through colander set aside.
Added a good handful of roughly chopped coriander to wok and took off heat.
Removed Naan's from oven and plated up.
Initial observation
Looks bloody beautiful - nice silky sheen to the sauce and no sign of separated oil.
Now for the taste test.
Silky smooth sauce, perfectly cooked moist chicken, mushroom taste coming through hot enough for my palate nicely sweet sourness from the lemon, hint of coriander and ghee.
Better than all my local takeaways but still not quite as good as the best Indian locally - they charge around ?13.00 for a similar dish which is slightly more buttery in flavour.
Rice was fine but a bit disappointed with the naan's.
Wifes comment - that was the best curry you have ever made.
Now bear in mind I last made a pathia around 2 weeks ago and the wife didnt like it at all. Next post some more tips
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Tips
If you are going to use my method of cooking rice - it cooks in around 5 mins keep testing it until there is just a nut in it then drain and set aside - it will be perfect and fluffy by the time its on the plates.
Buy the big 99p bunches of coriander from Tesco's split into about 6 freezer bags and then freeze down. - You should never run out of coriander if you fancy a curry.
Buy whole chickens - the cheapest are from lidl's around ?1.40/kg if not somerfields or tescos 2 for ?5 - ?6 are ok You can then use carcasses and offcuts for stock and you will save a fortune on chicken breasts bought in packs. I normally buy 10 at a time and freeze them in family portions - we get through a lot of chicken and its not worth freezing down any less than 20 wings at a time. The stock can be used in virtually every recipe and definitely imparts a richness of flavour - reduce well down for perfect chicken gravy for sunday roast's
Dont't overcook the chicken as it gets tough and chewy but remember leg meat takes longer to cook.
Anybody have any idea where I can get mild chili powder from, the wife doesnt like it hot and paprika hasnt got the same flavour.
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Currytester,
i'm going to have to try your base. i still remain sceptical that it?s going to make a difference and trying it is the only way for me to be sure either way.
please if you could jot down what u can remember (i am happy for ball park accepting refinement can be done later).
the reason i'm remain sceptical is the observation on the saffron base the saffron to me it tastes like a raw oniony garlic sauce very slightly tart and also quite salty
something has gone wrong on your go at it. i think i've made it twice and both times turns out yummy - it's very much edible on its own. agree on your comment on the salt i reduce to 1tsp and i use much less than the spec amount of oil (however next go i am as i intend to reclaim the oil for frying - different experiment)
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Hi Currytester
Thanks for you posts.
I'm sure everyone appreciates you efforts, but bear in mind that what we're attempting to reproduce with the base gravy in this section, is the BIR taste of a few decades ago.
I look forwad to seeing your final detailed base recipe (with photos I hope) and perhaps a follow-on recipe for the pathia you've made to go with it.
I would suggest at this stage however, that you leave out instructions on how to store coriander, cook rice, meat, naan, etc (unless you think it is relevant)..... stay with the base soup and pathia only or it'll get messy and confusing. ;)
Regards
SnS
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Anybody have any idea where I can get mild chili powder from, the wife doesnt like it hot and paprika hasnt got the same flavour.
Not too hot, but does provide colouring.
http://www.spicesofindia.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2espicesofindia%2eco%2euk%2facatalog%2fcontact%2dus%2ehtml&WD=kashmiri&SHOP=%20&PN=Indian%2dFood%2dMDH%2dKashmiri%2dMirch%2ehtml%23aISG049#aISG049
SnS ;D
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Reply to Jerry M
Dont get me wrong the Saffron Base wasnt inedible at all - just that IMHO it wasn't what I could eat a bowl of - everyone's palates are different. FYI I added the extra oil much to wifes disgust and used it for the frying part of the Balti I had on Friday.
IMO the balti I had Friday was not any particular improvement on the one I made the previous week using a different base and without using the curry oil.
But that is only my opinion. Also remember until now my whole family have been very happy with the Balti which we have had once a week for ages now. I have to cook for 7 on most occasions.
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Thanks for the tip SnS I will get some ordered.
Here is the recipe in its entirety.
Base Sauce
Use any good recipe for chicken stock if you need one please ask as I have one for everyday and one for chinese dishes.
Roughly 2.5 pts chicken stock - I didnt measure this but have topped pan to approx level and measured
400g Thinly sliced onions
200g Carrots chopped
20g Garlic Puree bottled from Indian Supermarket
10g Ginger Puree as above
10ml Cumin Ground
10ml Coriander ground
10ml Turmeric powder
10ml Paprika Natco or Rajah if I remember right
1 Large stick celery sliced
250g Butter
1. Turn butter into ghee by gently melting and passing through muslin or tea towelto remove solids.
2. Mic the cumin,coriander,turmeric, and paprike with water to get a nice not too thick paste.
3. Put wok on high heat and add about 180g ghee.
4. Add sliced onions and stir fry until soft about 7 mins
5. Add the chopped carrots and continue to stir fry until you can just see the onions starting to caramellise about 5 mins.
6. Add garlic, ginger and spice mix and stir fry without burning for about 1 min until the smell gets more fragrant.
7. Add celery and stock and bring to the boil.
8. Turn heat down and simmer until celery is softened about 20 mins - you should notice the ghee is now floating on the top.
9. Remove from heat and blitz so there are no lumps remaining.
10. At this stage I split the sauce into 2 pots there was in total 1.25 litres of sauce - I added 80g blitzed chopped tomatoes to one of the pans.
11 Bring both saucepans to boil and simmer until ghee starts to separate add water as necessary to achieve a consistency such that if you dip a spoon in the back it isnt quite coated
12 Remove from heat - you should notice that you get a lot less separation of the ghee.
13. Remove scum from surface if you wish - I didnt as I was a bit rushed
Sauce is complete
I did the taste test when all three sauces were cold. See previous post
For the Patia - serves 2 or 3
1/2 Green Bell Pepper finely chopped
2 Breasts chicken roughly 1" squares
10 closed cup mushrooms thickly sliced
About 70g Ghee
2 tsp Double concentrate Tom Puree
2 tsp special spice mix - I will post below again but its same as another post on this board
1/2 tsp Extra Hot Chili powder - adjust this to suit your own known tastes
Cooks Pinch of Methi - probably just over 1/2 tsp
2 Cooks pinches fine sea salt - probably around a tsp
2.5 Tbls sugar - sweeten to own taste
2.5 Tbls Lemon Juice - mine was from a bottle once again to taste.
Good handful of coarsely chopped coriander leaf fresh or frozen
1. Put chicken in pot and add boiling water to just cover.
2. Bring chicken to boil and turn down to simmer for only 3 mins then remove from heat - set aside
3. Heat wok and add ghee and bell pepper
4. Stir fry for about 4 mins so that pepper is just about cooked
5. Add sliced mushrooms and stir fry 2 mins
6. Add Tom Puree and stir fry 30 secs
7. Add special spice mix and stir fry for 30 secs
8. Added 3 Ladles of base sauce and brought to boil
9. Turn down to simmering and add chicken reserving water
10. Add Methi, chili powder, Salt, Sugar and lemon juice and stir in - taste and adjust as required
11. Adjust sauce consistency using the water from the chicken.
12. Add chopped coriander just before serving and stir in well.
Serve with Lemon wedges with a garnish of coriander leaf, naan bread and choice of rice.
Special Mix
4 tsp ground coriander
3.5 tsp turmeric
2.5 tsp ground cumin
1 tsp paprika
2 tsp Rajah Hot Madras curry powder
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SnS,
I cant remember what curry tasted like 20 years ago unfortunately however what i do remember is that sharwoods at that time produced a tandoori mix which when mixed with lemon juice and yoghurt tasted just like the real thing - but they stopped selling it probably ten years ago. It always was a firm favourite at summer barbies.
The taste I am trying to achieve is one that suits me, tastes as good if not better than anything that can be bought from a takeaway or restaurant and is definitely BIR standard.
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Nice post Currytaster.
Looks like there may well be another good base option here.
There appears to be proportionally a lot of carrot. Is this measurement correct?
Also you mentioned in your original post about using potatoes (being cheap), but there is no mention here. Did you not use any?
Just checking ;)
SnS ;D
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I dunno sns, you always seem to come across as being a little too sarcastic?
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I dunno sns, you always seem to come across as being a little too sarcastic?
No sarcasm intended. Sincere questions Tamala.
200g of carrot to 400g of onion does appear excessive.
from currytester's orignal post
So lets look at the soup first.
Quantity of Onions
Quantity of Carrots
Quantity of Potatoes
Tomatoes - if i wanted a slightly different flavour to the soup.
Just confirming that he hadn't left them out of the recipe as he appeared to be quite sure that these were to be the main ingredients.
:)
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With reference to the carrots SnS the proportion used was 2:1 and yes I didnt use any potatoes.
In my initial post I described a "vegetable soup" but when I checked through the bases very few actually used them (potatoes)as a sweeping statement I would say now "Onion Soup".
I then went and checked through a whole heap of cookery books comparing probably 2 dozen "Onion Soup" recipes but particularly one using carrots. I upped the quantities of onions and carrots to a level where I felt the flavour would be the best without overpowering the onions or spices I did take the carrots to the extreme because of the vegetable soup comment.
When I use up my current bases (I've run out of containers and freezer room) I will try another experiment but next time dropping the carrots down and adding other vegetables which will compliment the onions.
After the success of the initial experiment I am fairly certain that providing you dont add vegetables that overpower the onions you will be able to produce a decent base sauce. I must admit after all the posts and disparagements from members no one was more surprised than me when the theory worked.
I was asked whether I was going to use green pepper in the mix I will give some reasons why not in a second and was also asked about using garam masala.
My view on the curry base is quite simple - it is a base sauce and should be used like a roux. You add the other ingredients to it to create the flavour of sauce you want. Adding green pepper at the start to an "Onion Soup" would detract and not enhance the flavour. Change the flavour it would I agree but it is not recognized as one of the ingredients that go with onions and carrots. (If you buy a book called The Cooks Companion by Stephanie Alexander you will see what goes with what- its recommended reading for applicants to Masterchef) Garam Masala - there are so many different recipes with differing proportions.
You could say that in the final curry the special spice mix could be called garam massala. Its a bit like chinese 5 spice mix there are loads of different formulas and recipes. BY virtue of the fact that both of these are spice mixes I prefer to add the spices individually or in a group that I know works. I have never had any successful curries made using a off the shelf garam masala.
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currytester/tamala,
there is bound to be some sceptism. currytester is offering something different which is outside most peoples comfort zone (inc me).
anyhow back to progress. i'm ok on going for the make except the chicken stock. my wife certainly won't buy 2 carcases and i think stock cubes would not please CT at all. CT please if you could
Use any good recipe for chicken stock if you need one please ask
i will buy the ghee (easiest for me). i'm not keen on the celery (but Ronnoc is in the same boat and the celery in his base left me still pindering it and unable to discout it) so will comply to the spec.
i'm no sold on the no green pepper but happy to wait (i noted that CA's development base tasted pretty good and it had no pepper).
suggest we leave the garam out of the dicussion for now to keep things simple ( the special spice mix stays as spice mix for me.
planning to cook the base tuesday along with (now i'm not sure). only kidding the saffron as i really need to exclude/or prove oil reclaim.
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after all the posts and disparagements from members
I think you probably didnt help your cause much by your opening gambit currytester:
What a load of twaddle you guys are talking
I dont know, maybe it got peoples' backs up do you think?
For the life of me, Im still not sure what you meant by it anyway? Maybe you can elaborate?
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Interesting thread this one...
I always use home-made chicken stock in my base, stock cubes are rubbish in my opinion and just don't produce a good flavour. I make a stock with the left over carcass of a roast chicken, containing peepercorns, (a little) star anise, bay and cloves. I would normally add onion, pepper and celery but there is little point if those ingredients are going in the base also.
I always add a stick of celery, and I think it makes a difference. I also add some carrot and green pepper, but I made bases that are just as good without them.
I agree completely with the remark that currytester made about never getting good results with 'off the shelf' garam massala, I don't it in everything, but I do think home-made is much better.
I used to belive firmly in the importance of pre-frying, however now I'm not so sure! having tried making base without initially frying the garlic/ginger/tomarto first, and it seemed ok. Also I wongder if if is evfen necessary to fry the spices, provided oil/ghee (or some other lipid!) is present to extract the flavour. In some base recipies here the spice is simply added to the base with the oil, at leat that way the temp can't climb above 100c and the spices won't burn!
I use amethod that is a bit of a distillation of many on here. Boil; chopped onion/celery/pepper/carrot and stock, then after an hour or so fry garlic/ginger paste a few minutes in oil, add blitzed tinned toms, fry another few mins, add spice mix fry a minute, and then add the fryed mix to the reast of the base, bltz the lot, cook and skim for 20 mins or so.
I think currytester is right in his opinion that if the base tastes like a good (albeit slighty spicy) soup in its own right then it can be the basis of a good curry. I still believe the success of the final finished dish is more down to the on the ingredients and techniques used in the final stages, and this is far more important than minor differences between base recipies!
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Ouch, sorry everyone, I really must take the time to type more slowly and check my post properly before pushing 'send'! Oh, and using spell check would help!
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Currytester,
am i ok to make the stock as: one chicken carcase, two carrots, one onion, 10 peppercorns, 4 bay leaves, simmer 2 hrs time (nb i will have to put 1 anise just the same as adrian does).
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Reply to JerryM
Chicken stock will be fine with one carcase - Just not so highly flavoured - you could add a chicken stock cube to help improve it. The rest of the ingredients are absolutely fine - if you arent going to use the wings chuck those in as well or alternatively if you precook the chicken using my method put them in with the breast cubes. Please note that I dont use salt until the final stage of making the curry. The star anise addition is interesting but I would leave it out first time round. My reason being it would be nice to see if your experience of the base was the same as mine.
If you like your curry with a hint of aniseed in the background I would try dry frying some fennel seeds for a few seconds then grinding them down and adding to the curry a little at a time until you get the taste you want.
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To Tamala
What got to me was reading mutiple posts about the addition of a potato to a curry base. This led to my opening statement which looking back was a little harsh I have to say. However what it did do was make me get off my backside and put my chef's hat on.
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Currytester,
a brief update (will add full details and pics later).
have the base made (3pts finished base). have also made the saffron alongside. have tasted both hot & cold and find them not much dissimilar in terms of a base.
headline would be that both pass the threshold for me. the currytester base is certainly a "delux" but requires a lot more effort.
will make my std madras curry sauce tonight to gauge the taste (this is the only real test for me - proof in the eating).
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pictures of base
1) frying onion & carrot
2) onion & carrot finished
3) frying complete and chicken stock
4) the finished base
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Currytester,
details of yesterday's efforts on the base cooking. it kept me going all day off and on.
i'm glad u included the times for frying otherwise i'd have been lost. i thought times were spot on. the stock tasted pretty good with 1 carcase and didn't fancy ruining the good taste with a bought stock cube so did not add. i ended up making the ghee myself.
i like to make a base by basically throwing all into the pot and leave it cook. this method was a marathon for me and would probably have to admit that it's too much effort for my weekday curry making. i think if u could use a stock cube then this would alleviate much of the effort.
i found the ghee a bit messy and struggled with the amount of sat fat compared to oil. i noticed a vegetable ghee in the supermarket (no cholesterol) and this would again alleviate much of my concerns.
something was a little too strong in the taste for me and i am pretty sure it was the ghee (i'm not used to it). so if this could be reduced or switched then i would be all in favour.
i did not add any extra water at step 11 and not sure that i should (consistency seemed good). there was no separation of ghee at step 12 but i did remove a fair amount of scum at step 13.
surprising to me i could not detect the celery. i would increase the bulk veg % by increasing the onions to say 600g. i think this would help to perhaps soften the taste of the ghee (or alternatively reduce the amount of ghee).
so in summary as i said earlier - this base has a totally different taste "delux" from the saffron (from which it's based). to me i don't feel it will have that much effect on the final curry though - based on my experiences to date which suggest that a base either does or doesn?t make the threshold. once the threshold's past then the impact is down to the spices at frying and the frying technique.
have starved myself all day in prep for trying my std madras with both bases for a side by side comparison.
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I have to say that looks pretty damn fine to me - I could almost have made it myself
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What an effort Jerry! Can't wait to hear the results! ;D
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Nice report Jerry.
I reckon you're right about the 'threshold' though. It's much of a compromise between cost, quality and effort I reckon.
Thanks to Currytester for his efforts as well.
SnS ;)
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How was the curry Jerry?
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Currytester,
things did not work out as well as i thought. i've strayed a little too far off the BIR path.
i've added a picture of the 2 madras curry sauces that i made to my std recipe (link http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2444.msg22679.html#msg22679 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2444.msg22679.html#msg22679)).
there is nothing between them in terms of looks. the left hand is your base the right hand saffron. there's a dominant taste in yours which i've not encountered before and put it down to the ghee. this spoils for me what is otherwise a spot on base.
i am certain that for those who like the more authentic cooking then this is definitely the base for them. for me is just too far off the BIR taste that i'm used to.
i think i might have compounded the taste by making the ghee myself and starting with 250gm of butter. in haste i did not weigh how much was left after the clarifying and it's likely that i used more than the 180gm spec. the trouble is the taste of the ghee is just so different which surprised me as it's just butter. the other thing to point out is that we are not butter people (i know this may sound strange but we don't have it on our sandwiches for example). so the difference was quite abrupt for us.
in summary for anyone wanting to replicate their local BIR (as i do) it's not for us. for anyone edging more to the authentic cooking then this will be the base for u and clearly passes the threshold.
i remain glad that i tried this recipe as it is quite different.
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i am certain that for those who like the more authentic cooking then this is definitely the base for them....in summary for anyone wanting to replicate their local BIR (as i do) it's not for us. for anyone edging more to the authentic cooking then this will be the base for u and clearly passes the threshold.
But bases arent used in authentic indian cooking jerry. For those "edging more to the authentic cooking", leave the base out!
You seem to get quite confused sometimes jerry ;)
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Ghee is not used in making a BIR 'main' curry bases either - it's far too expensive. Mostly, they tend to use 5 gallon containers of vegetable oil. So if there was one thing to change in Currytasters recipe it would have to be the Ghee anyway (I believe this is the bit that Jerry reckoned caused his problem).
Having said that, I found out tonight that ghee is used in making the curry base used for BIR Kormas. More later ;)
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I am not surprised by your test results at all Jerry.
Firstly to me I would break BIR curries into categories of curry
Sweet
Sweet and Sour
Sour
We have two totally different sauces here Saffron and CurryTester.
The CurryTester is purely experimental and if you remember I described the cooking procedure as a method of releasing the natural sugars from the carrots and onions.
Now I would describe the two bases and have in previous posts - currytester tastes sweet and silky and rich whilst for me the saffron tastes sour and coarse.
Also you made your favourite curry which is a madras - I would class madras, vindaloo, tindaloo, phall, basic curry all of these curries in the sour category.
I would say that the best sauce for these would be the saffron or rajver or one of the others.
Now I just happen to love Patia - hot,sweet and sour but also quite rich
I made the patia again last night - I made three screwups in the cooking process but it was still better than all takeaways that I have tried in last couple of years
By the way the three screwups were - I added the chicken wings to the cubes to pre-cook - you must cook the wings separately otherwise the cubes overcook.
You must add boiling water to the chicken - blanches it and helps to retain moisture
and forgot to fry the mushrooms.
I think the currytester sauce complements the sweet and sweet and sour dishes perfectly. I will try a CTM over the weekend to see if it provides a similar result to the patia - but i am confident it will.
Now back to the base
Ghee - I used a lot of Ghee basically overall it was 250g or 1/2 lb butter - for the cost conscious amongst us this added a ?1 to the overall cost of several curries.
This was purely an experimental base and experiments are for us all to learn from.
One unexpected result that came about was the lack of separation of the ghee at the second stage of cooking - it didnt come to the surface in the same way that the veg oil does. This meant it couldnt be skimmed off and set aside.
Next time I make the base I will reduce the amount of butter by half as I think this will still provide the "taste". I will not be changing the veg mix as both Jerry and I found the consistency to be correct nor will I be changing the spice mix or the overall cooking method.
What I actually believe is that purely by accident we have found the second base sauce that the best BIR's use suitable for making your Patia, CTM, Tandoori Chicken Massala, Salia, korma and Passandra.
I was planning on further confounding the experts by using different vegetables and producing a different "soup mix" but I am that pleased with the result myself in that I have achieved my required taste for the type of curry I like the most I feel that any further experimentation will be wasted.
I am now going to go through the various curry recipes one by one over the next few weeks and test the taste the different bases make. I will report back later
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What I actually believe is that purely by accident we have found the second base sauce that the best BIR's use suitable for making your Patia, CTM, Tandoori Chicken Massala, Salia, korma and Passandra.
Coincidentally. I was at the Saffron last night and the subject of the second base (used for Korma) came up in discussions with Raj (Manager & Chef).
I now have the ingredients and the basic method but have not yet had the demonstration which will be arranged soon. I can however assure you that the currytester base is a long way off the Korma base used in the Saffron kitchens, at least. They do however use ghee.
The third base is different again and that is used for CTM's.
Regards
SnS ;)
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Tamala,
You seem to get quite confused sometimes jerry
it may come across that way but i don't profess to be a cooking expert (i have no cooking training) so I would expect some confusion (ie the post on yogurt I haven?t a clue what it does and feel I don?t need to only the final taste being important). what i post is the output from actual experience in trying the cooking out. It?s not the travelling but the arrival that?s important to me.
i've lived on BIR's for years and i know what tastes good (and not so good) in terms of BIR. all that i say (and do) is aimed at being able to replicate this at home not to substitute the BIR either as visiting my local takeaway and restaurants is a way of life and will never change.
keep pointing out any points that need clarification though - i am very keen to keep learning.
best wishes, jerry
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Currytester,
agree entirely on your follow up post
if you remember I described the cooking procedure as a method of releasing the natural sugars from the carrots and onions
this is what attracted me to the method. i await your next output with 1/2 the ghee (i felt the rest of the curry was spot on).
interesting that u class madras as sour. i find my std madras to be not as sweet as the BIR taste i'm used to. i've tried adding sugar into the base at cooking stage but this just adds a sickly sweetness not a caramelised.
i also very much like pathia (my fav is UB's - it's the closest to BIR i've come across). i've got enough saffron so will try your recipe out for background understanding.
SNS's post is also adding to the interest in the post - many thanks CT for raising the issue (original post). i'm sure there's learning here and as u say we're only experimenting so no probs if any attempts don't deliver promise at the 1st go.
just 1 last thought what about the vegetable ghee i noticed in the local Asian supermarket (it would sort the cost and veg lobbies)
best wishes,
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Have to say I have never tried vegetable ghee but it will be worth a go next time i go to asian supermarket.
For those that are vegetarians and dont want to use chicken stock you can make and add a basic vegetable stock instead.
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The point I am trying to make I suppose is that if you check through most of the base sauce recipes you will find the same or similar ingredients used in each one perhaps with a bit of this and that added.
I have tried and tested most of the base sauces over an extended period of time having started with the curry secret base and used exactly the same curry recipe to test them. My findings are as I describe there is a very marginal difference between "the taste". Today I have tried a comparison between 2 bases Saffron and another - one with chopped tomatoes and one without - the one with suited my taste (or the recipe I am using) slightly better than the one without.The difference was very marginal.
I like you have been striving to make the perfect BIR curry in my case for over 20 years. This site has probably the best and most accurate recipes for stimulating the curry lovers tastebuds. As you can see from the following recipes they all use a version of Onion soup - one even gets it from a can - Check Saffron,New base Sauce recipe (with tomatoes),Rajver (with tomatoes), UB's (lots of extra bits), KD's, Darth's Madras etc etc.
So have a look for yourself - you will see the similarity between recipes but you have to step back to do so.
currrytester
I agree with the thinking and rationale behind your original and subsequent posts. It should be easy, too. I also think that even if the base sauce is a bit too simple and lacking, that it can be improved upon at stage 2, to end up with a superb curry. But at the end of the day, it's accurate recipes which are needed. Nothing else counts. "Talking shop" type debates are interesting but are no substitute for recipes. Do you have any final recipes (base + stage 2) for anything like a madras, korma or CTM which is as good, or better than anything you've ever tasted in a BIR?
Regards
George
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One further thought: someone (Curry Tester I think) suggested that BIRs were unlikley to use anything as costly as green pepper in their base sauce. Whilst I'm sure this is true for run-of-the-mill BIRs, I'm equally sure it doesn't apply to anywhere trying to serve food which is a cut above average.
The cost of adding an ingredient like green pepper might be somewhere around 1p-5p per portion (if that) but the resturant would probably charge 100p-200p or more above the average price of the dish, if they reckon their version tastes better, so I suggest it would be perfectly viable.
Regards
George
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Hi George,
You are probably right about the green pepper perhaps being added by some restaurants. However its just my feeling that basically we are are starting off with a vegetable soup mix of onions carrots and celery for this base - the point being that there was a load of what I consider to be twaddle discussing the merits of adding a potato to a base sauce when I felt we were just creating a spiced vegetable soup.
With all due respect if you want to add a green pepper please do so it shouldnt make much difference to the final sauce. The main difference is the method of cooking, the use of ghee and chicken stock.
By the way I made a ctm last night using this base and an adaptation of CA's recipe.
Using the base it was way too rich for me - the CA recipe tastes great but all those calories. Anyway I will make again and adapt for this base
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Currytester,
no real value in this observation (probably obvious to most).
i made your pathia and UB's side by side. I had not cooked mushroom at home in a curry before. i was surprised how i did not think the mushrooms added much - surprised as my fav at fav blati is chicken & mushroom - obviously i?m miles away from there abilities (with mushrooms).
i don?t put lemon in UB's (or madras) so effectively was comparing lemon & sugar v tamarind & cream coconut. for me the tamarind/coconut was closer to BIR (but as always not just quite there but that?s the case for all my dishes albeit UB?s got 3 out of 3 family votes to make again but no mushrooms).
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>You are probably right about the green pepper
>perhaps being added by some restaurants.
To clarify, I consider green pepper as just one of several 'expensive' ingredients which I believe some BIRs may add to their base sauce.
>However its just my feeling that basically
>we are are starting off with a vegetable
>soup mix of onions carrots and celery
Well sort of, but the are many different recipes for vegetable soup, just like there are many recipes for base sauces. And base sauce is not vegetable soup.
>there was a load of what I consider to be
>twaddle discussing the merits of adding a
>potato to a base sauce when I felt we were
>just creating a spiced vegetable soup.
I don't think it helps to use a word like 'twaddle'. And as it happens, I consider potato to be one ingredient on my preferred list of ingredients for base sauce. I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
>With all due respect if you want to add a
>green pepper please do so it shouldnt
>make much difference to the final sauce.
It depends how much one adds of course, but I suggest it can make quite a difference.
>The main difference is the method of cooking,
>the use of ghee and chicken stock.
How do you know? Do you have a truly stunning recipe for a base sauce and final curry? If we all tasted such a dish and agreed it was one of the best curries we've ever tasted, and you were able to demonstrate that was because it included ghee and chicken stock, then your statement might have some credibility. Othwerwise, how can you possibly be so sure?
As I said before, the only thing that counts is recipes which many people agree are special and good in some way. Anything else is mere speculation!
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Latest development on what I would now call a true curry base.
I used exactly the same ingredients and quantities except for omitting the celery and adding 1/2 a chopped yellow pepper which was sauteed with the carrots when they were added.
After the puree stage I then added about 200 ml of passata. This time round the ghee rose to the surface correctly giving the ability to spoon it off and produce a healthier curry option if desired.
I then made a variation of CA's CTM
The end result was superb - even my 75 year old mother cleared the lot.
My observations are that the curry base was slightly sweeter and darker because of the passata and pepper. Due to the ghee content the ctm was very rich and can be improved further by substituting coconut milk for the cream and missing out the coconut powder. For the Tikka I used standard Rajah Tandoori Mix - mixed with yoghurt and lemon juice and marinated the chicken for 36 hours - this resulted in melt in your mouth chicken. The curry powder used in the recipe was Rajah medium.....
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now call a true curry base
currytester,
could i please clarify whether u are aiming for a BIR base or a traditional slant on BIR.
where i'm coming from is the use of ghee. since our last discussion i've tried out oil reclaim and found that it gets me much closer to BIR than without (hence my plea http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2713.0.html (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2713.0.html)).
with the changes u've made (add pepper and more tomatoe) i am convinced this will be a spot on "traditional slant BIR" base.
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JerryM
In the area I live (just outside Portsmouth) we have hundreds of Indian restaurants to choose from. I use them with different purposes in mind for example we have a very local restaurant that allows you to bring your own booze with no corkage. I would give this a curry rating of 5/10 but expense rating of 12/10 so we use it for big family parties. Then we have some good takeaways and restaurants which I would give a variable 7-9/10 depending on which chef is on duty all of which are within a pound of each other in price per meal. Then we have the two really good restaurants where the food is above and beyond everywhere else in taste, variety and quality these I rate at 10/10 however the price of the food is double roughly the average price.
So in answer to your question what I am aiming for is at least the 10/10 level achieved by these two top restaurants hence the use of slightly different ingredients and quantities. This is also probably why the taste of the pathia was different to what you are used to.
On the subject of mushrooms I'm sorry I didnt explain how they should be cooked. Heat a pan to high heat and add a splash of olive oil and a knob of butter. When the butter is foaming add the thickly sliced mushrooms - dont be tempted at this stage to add any more oil as they seem to soak it all up - stir fry the mushrooms until lightly brown now add a chef's pinch of salt and a shake of ground black pepper - reduce the heat slightly but continue to stir fry. The moisture from the mushrooms and the oil should start leaking out into the pan - turn the heat back to high and reduce the liquid so it is fully evaporated - you have now intensified the taste of the mushrooms. At this stage if you like add a little garlic and you will have beautiful garlic mushrooms. Next time you have a full english breakfast try this method with field mushrooms but leave out the garlic. When fully cooked add to the pathia at the last minute before serving.
If you just throw mushrooms into any liquid - you will lose the flavour as it dissipates throughout the liquid - use the method above and the flavour gets doubly sealed into the mushrooms and doesnt get a chance of leaking out. The result a chicken and mushroom pathia rather than a chicken and grey lump pathia.
The use of reclaimed oil or ghee is now achievable with the new recipe - I reckon I got almost 100% separation with the last base made. Now on this subject basically what is created is a spiced oil. Any spiced oil added to a dish improves the flavour I make a chilli oil and a spiced oil for chinese dishes which I use one or other in place of ordinary groundnut oil.
We only had the CTM on saturday night and mother wanted it again tonight however next saturday I am going to further improve the recipe by doing her blades chicken tikka which seems to be getting rave reviews.
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currytester,
hope you?re not a pompey fan.
on the summary of restaurants i'm right with u. disappointed that the no corkage is not really upto spec as i believe these are fantastic places for a get together.
i'll try the mushroom technique for english breakfast 1st - as a practise on my skills.
would appreciate your thoughts on what spice for a BIR base - even maybe your thoughts on the differences across the 3 categories of BIR.
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JerryM
Rugby fanatic
The base spice mix I seem to prefer is equal quantities of ground coriander, ground cumin, good paprika, turmeric. I never add chili powder to the base as its easy to spice up the final dish to your desired heat.
I have three different chili powders now Rajah Extra Hot, Hot and Mild. Believe you me the Extra Hot is exactly what it says on the packet - I made a beef chili a couple of years ago and threw in a tablespoon - I was the only one able to eat it with watering eyes, runny nose and sweating like a pig. The morning after was also quite painful and brought tears to the eyes.
I would say that there are really only 2 categories of BIR, cheap ones and dear ones. The cheap ones generally have very similar menus to each other and vary a small amount in taste, sauce consistency and quality. The more expensive restaurants and here I mean meals starting at ?12.00 and over just for the main dish tend to do a lot less trade (throughput) but are generally booked solid. They have what I would describe as a different menu - they call it traditional. However the food is simply better cooked and with slightly different fresher fuller flavours.
This is where the use of ghee came from to replicate the slightly buttery flavour of these "better" restaurants.
By the way on the subject of "the taste" I am sure that this is the burnt oil in the cooking process caused by the flames regularly seen in BIR kitchens and the high heat of the burners.
Ghee has just about the highest smoke point of all oils I would check out the wiki on ghee as you may actually find its a healthier option than veg oil.
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Currytester, when you are suggesting that upmarket BIRs use ghee instead of veg oil, is it in the base or the curry, or both?
-- Josh
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Currytester,
very pleased on the rugby front which i know nothing of despite living at the centre of rugby league (or so they claim).
yep! i think i'm pretty much settling on the same base spice - i need to make one more base batch to confirm. agree on the chilli too but i have on my list to add the milder green chilli without seed (i know from mex chilli how u miss chilli a bit like garlic when it's not there). i now also think the type of chilli important (another post on cayenne pepper).
i would add a 3rd BIR (but being a bit flippant) - some have now gone the way of some general restaurants and started putting more emphasis on the decoration (and small portions) without thought that punters have to visit the chip shop on way home.
i aim to minimise cholesterol through sat fat. butter along with eggs and butter are whey off scale. i do struggle with the richness of the ghee in the base (down to individual taste buds). i could see a use at the final cooking stage.
i too am pretty sure now that the final missing part of the "taste" is down to the burners & flames (instantaneous heat hitting the ingredients). i am beginning to think also that overall it may not be that crucial.
best wishes.
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Its definitely used in the final curry as I have seen them use it but whether they use it in all curries is a different matter. I havent been able to afford to go through the full menu. I have in the past had a good arrangement with 3 different curry houses and have been in the kitchens and watched the preparations - unfortunately these were only the lower end curry houses. One thing I would say is that they very rarely use large amounts of spice in their individual portions. In all three curry houses they have 6 or 7 containers alongside the range which they dip into when making the curry plus a large pot with the curry sauce. I havent seen a container containing dried methi leaves unless these have been ground down finer and I didnt recognise them.
However thinking about it they had a tub of sliced onions with green flecks in - I wonder if they pre-mix the onions with the methi and then add them into the curry in this way?
A thread discussing pro's and con's of veg oils versus ghee, etc here:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,2139.msg18068.html#msg18068
SnS
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In all three curry houses they have 6 or 7 containers alongside the range
Are these British or American restaurants CT?
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Sorry about the delay in replying they are all uk based.
I have been into other kitchens notably in Gran Canaria - Puerto Rico but I wasnt able to learn anything because the curry was c**p.
Here is an interesting point though using the recipes off this site both chinese and Indian are generally better than the overseas (European) restaurant bought curries.