Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Ian S. on May 14, 2005, 01:52 PM
-
Hi everyone. 'Infrequent Ian' here.
There's been some talk in threads about the KD recipes. Some of it's geting a bit heated (pardon the pun!) and I'd like to leave that behind, in this post. But as there seems to be a division between those who think the KD approach basically works and those who don't, I thought I'd just add my thoughts on its pros and cons, and let you know how I've been tweaking it over the years. I'm not sticking up for it in any way - it's still not close enough.
First of all - and this has been mentioned before - although we all try to describe 'The Taste' and we seem to be able to agree on certain aspects of it, it's massively subjective. It's entirely possible that some of you would try a vindaloo from my favourite local takeaway, and decide that it just doesn't 'do it' for you. When I visit my friends in Southend, they order from a very posh and expensive takeaway which obviously uses the very best ingredients but for me, the meal just doesn't hang together (in terms of taste) in the way that I prefer. My local favourite is positively cheap by comparison, but it's their food's taste and texture that I'm trying to replicate. So I may be chasing something different from you altogether!
My finished KD curry has a very similar texture to my local's. It tastes fairly light and 'clean'. When I tried Pete's excellent Brick Lane recipe, both I and my partner agreed that - while it tasted great - the sauce seemed to have an emulsified oil texture in the mouth. This is probably because I pureed the base without removing the floating oil first. It wasn't unpleasant, but for our palettes it was a little over-rich. So for me, the KD method of pureeing boiled onions before adding oil seems to get me closer to my goal.
I agree that the KD book falls down in the individual dish recipes, and that the base sauce in itself is bland. What the dish cooking method has going for it - in my opinion -
is that the rather watery base sauce evaporates down during the 5 minute boil, and then the oil separates and floats during the 4 or so minutes of simmering. To me, this just looks and feels right and deems to make sense. But the dish recipes all seem overspiced and oversalted, and the addition of so much Garam Masala turns the sauce a muddy brown. My local's is always golden (apart from the Phall!) so this tells me I'm going off the rails. Then again, some people here have reported seeing brown base sauces in BIR kitchens...
Here's how I've got my best results for a vindaloo to date. I'm not suggesting that if you try it, you'll like it! But just for info (and to prove that I do actually do some cooking!):
Base sauce: I use twice as much garlic as the recipe says and one-and-a-half times as much ginger. I roughly chop and fry the garlic (just golden, not brown) before adding it to the ginger and water and pureeing. This seems to blend in better (in terms of taste) and also - I don't know if this is important - seems to stop the onion mixture going that insipid green colour. Then straight on as the book says - although most recently, I added 2" of coconut block and a green pepper when boiling the onions (inspired by Pete's recipe) and it was very nice.
On to the tomato, paprika and oil stage, and instead of using 225g tinned tomatoes and their juice, I drain the tinned tomatoes thoroughly and puree enough to get 225g after emptying the blender. I've also tried doubling the amount and that worked well. Then straight on as the book says.
When it comes to the dish, I use 3/4 pint of base for one portion. How on earth are you supposed to get 3 to 4 portions out of that as the book says?! When I've finished, the base has reduced to just over 1/2 a pint.
I bring to the boil and add cooked meat and chilli powder - but I add 1/4 to 1/2 a teaspoon of asafoetida too. 1/4 of a teaspoon of salt is enough for me - a whole teaspoon seems practically poisonous. I boil this furiously for five minutes - but with a lid on. I know BIRs don't use a lid, but this is mainly to save my kitchen from splatters!
Then I lower the heat ad add just 1/2 level teaspoon of the KD Garam Masala, and the tip of a teaspoon's worth of ground fenugreek leaves. And instead of adding half the chopped coriander after two minutes and simmering for a further two, I just sprinkle the coriander immediately before serving. Any sooner and it seems to discolour the dish and lose all its magic.
Now, to my palette, if I could just get the smoky toffee taste/smell into this, I think I'll have pretty much cracked it. Which is why I've got to try the chicken jelly next time. I agree with Pete that chicken curries will have this quality to a degree, but it's not as pronounced in mine as it is in my local takeaway's. I think if it iis the missing factor, they must add it even if the curry is going to contain chicken anyway.
Plus there's lots of other things to try from the excellent info provided on this site, not to mention comlete alternatives to KD - all of which I intend to get round to, when I can afford it!
-
... and, as I'm working from memory here - I've just realised i forgot to mention the cumin! 1/2 teaspoon added along with the garam masala and fenugreek! ::)
-
You've really been working on this.
I have never totally given up on KD curry secret.
I had a "back to basics" last night using her recipes.
The finished sauce is just so far off what you hope for, but near enough to know it could be done.
I normally end up with something that looks right at least.
Next time I will try your frying the garlic first.
And your observations on overdoing the fenugreek and garam masala are spot on.
Both can totally dominate the meal and neither are the main feature of a takeaway.
Bought curries have a very subtle flavour.
It's so subtle that you can completely miss the fact you have achieved it.
The number of times I have frozen my "failed tasteless" curries and been amazed at what thawed out.
-
Hi Pete,
One error in the KD book that threw me to begin with is the Fenugreek ingredient in the chicken curry (and other main ingredient basic curries).
In the ingredients it staes ground Fenugreek and in the procedure states dried fenugreek.
hope this helps a little,
Cheers Pete,
Blondie
-
Hi Blondie
Yes, you're quite right - the instructions are confusing because of this. When KD says 'ground fenugreek' she means dried fenugreek leaves, ground up! So a 'pinch of ground fenugreek' in the recipies is actually more like 1/2 a teaspoon or so of dried fenugreek leaves, I suppose.
Grinding the leaves is a bit of a business. The fine powder seems to leak out of any gaps in the mill and fill the air. My whole flat smells of it for days afterwards.
>>The finished sauce is just so far off what you hope for, but near enough to know it could be done.
Yep, that about sums it up, Pete!
-
Hi Ian S,
What makes you think that grinding dried fenugreek leaves is what is meant?
The reason I ask is, that ground or powdered fenugreek is available and it has a very very strong flavour nothing like grinding leaves at home will give.
Cheers Ian S,
Blondie
-
Hi Blondie
It's mentioned in the book's introduction, where the spices are listed and described. It talks about dried fenugreek leaves, and then (from memory - I'll check when I get home) says something like "grind in a coffee grinder and store in an airtight jar". I was surprised when I read it - I'd never heard of anyone grinding the dried leaves before. I suppose it spreads the flavour more quickly and uniformly when you add it to the curry. But it doesn't mention fenugreek seeds in the introduction (once again, as far as I can remember) so I assume that the 'ground fenugreek' referred to throughout the recipes is the same stuff talked about in the intro.
I could be wrong, though, so I'll definitely be checking when I get home! :)
Ian
--
-
Ah - I've just noticed you've got the e-book version here on this site! :D
Here's the passage from 'Introduction - Herbs and Spices':
>>Fenugreek (dry leaves). Not to be confused with fenugreek seeds, this is a dark green leafy plant similar in height to coriander. The flavour is not as subtle as that of coriander and becomes more concentrated when the plant is dried. Known as 'methi' it is available from Asian grocers in both its fresh and dry form. It is the dried ingredient that is used in restaurant cooking and although methi is not perhaps an essential herb for restaurant curries, it certainly add that 'extra something' so it is worth trying if you can get it.
To prepare for use, pick out and discard any straw-like pieces. Grind in a coffee grinder, sieve, and store in a glass jar. Do not forget to label.
Ian
--
-
Great well thought out post Ian. S,
Just picking up on your point about Brown Gravy, i ordered a takeaway on Sat (Prawn Balti) the sauce was very dark brown, thick and had a really strong beefy oxo type taste and smell. Not very enjoyable at all.
I have never seen this before and it does not work.
In addition the girl had a Chicken Rogan, which again did not have the tatse at all. Very dissapointing and I really believe i could have done a better job.
S 8)
-
I have never totally given up on KD curry secret
Where does the elusive Kris Dillon hang out? And Pat Chapman for that matter. Kris Dillon may be a pen name but a real person must have actually written the book. These authors are at least as interested in curries as we are. You'd think they would soon find these forums and couldn't resist the opportunity to pass comment.
-
The number of times I have frozen my "failed tasteless" curries and been amazed at what thawed out.
Pete, I know what you mean, but I'm sure this is not just down to freezing the curry but by not eating the curry the same day you cook it. I don't even believe this is all down to all the flavours merging better but I do think the primary reason is your taste buds get shot to pieces when you stand over this stuff cooking all day. Go for a walk, come back to it and it smells and tastes better IMO.
I also think this is why putting the curries in the oven get praise - you don't get the 4 hour nasal blast before eating it.
-
Where does the elusive Kris Dillon hang out?
I wrote to the curry secret publisher, Elliot Right Way Books.
That was back in 2001
I got a letter back saying:-
"Kris Dhillon, the author of The Curry Secret, is a lady who is currently living in Australia and I am afraid we do not have an address that we can reach her at."
The letter was from A Clive Elliot, Director
I was made a little suspicious by the letter, as it said Kris was a woman.
I am NOT a sexist but in my experience I have never seen a lady chef at a takeaway.
It's an area that is totally dominated by men.
I don't understand why.
But assuming that is true, then a woman would not be privy to curry house secrets.
Does anyone else know of takeaway lady chefs?
-
I have heard from a number of sources that Kris is a woman
-
I have heard from a number of sources that Kris is a woman
So have I, but I now consider it counts for nothing. I suggest there's a 50% chance that the author is a man or even two or more persons. Who knows?
Regards
George
-
I find it really surprising that a retired indian restaurant chef hasn't written a curry house book.
It would be a real boost to their pension.
What I would really like to see is the proper quantities recipe, as used in a restaurant.
You know, "take 0ne and a half sacks of onion, 2 lbs of garlic, 3 bags of curry powder etc."
-
What I would really like to see is the proper quantities recipe, as used in a restaurant.
You know, "take 0ne and a half sacks of onion, 2 lbs of garlic, 3 bags of curry powder etc."
I agree. There's less of a margin for error if we could learn the large scale quantities actually used, and then decide how to scale it down ourselves.
-
Does anyone else know of takeaway lady chefs?
The back of the book says that Kris is "an accomplished Indian restaurateur."? I always thought she was the owner, and either she convinced the (male) chef to tell all, or she learned by observation.? Now I'm starting to wonder.? Not only have I never seen a woman chef (well, actually once in Boca Raton, Florida, but that's another story), but never a female owner or even a waitress.? ?
-
Re: The taste we desire can only be achieved by cooking in quantities.
Ok, here we go. I don't want to offend any of the lovely people on this forum but, this whole idea is ridiculous.
Well not only ridiculous but it defies logic and inteligence. How can you not take a quantity of any ingredients and divide by 5, 10, 20 or 30 or whatever and not expect to get a similar result?
To me this train of thought is some kind of excuse we are using in desperation at not getting the results we desire.
Come on folks, we will find the answer somewhere, somehow. But let's not bark up the wrong tree. That's just wasting time and effort.
Many people may disagree with these comments. Sorry, I just try to speak the truth as I find it.
-
How can you not take a quantity of any ingredients and divide by 5, 10, 20 or 30 or whatever and not expect to get a similar result?
Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. :(? From an article on scaling ingredients up/down:? "Spices and other seasonings, including salt, don't always need to be increased or decreased in the same proportion as the other ingredients. Instead add seasonings to taste until you get the results you want."?
-
Re: The taste we desire can only be achieved by cooking in quantities.
This is not true. I have achieved 'the taste', and reporduced perfect imiatation takeaway dishes 3 times now. I've made curry every night for the last month (really), with the quest of hitting the nail on the head. I've done it three times - what I can't do is reliably reproduce it. As a result, I'm unable (so far) to identify exactly what it was bout what I did one time that wa right, and what was not etc.
Last nights was my best attempt so far, without doubt. As ever, I used Dhillon sauce ( was a bit short on onions so topped the weight up with a pepper and a stick of celery), I also added 3 heaped teaspoons of sugar into it. I followed the general principle of Mark J's curry house viewing.
I now consider the pre fried onions to as important as the base sauce. I chop 3-4 onions very finley - some finely dived, some finley sliced into small strips. I fry these gently in plenty of oil, with a bit of base sauce, and a desert spoon of *cinnamon* on them. I slowly fry them for 30-40 minutes, until they are totally soft, see through, and sweet.
My cooking procedure was as follows : hot oil -> stiry fry garlic paste -> heaped ladle of onions -> creamed tomatoes -> spice (only 1/2 a teapsoon) -> fenugreek -> salt-> chilli powder -> Ladel of curry sauce -> 1.2 chopped tomato-> sprinkling of coriander -> 3 more ladles of curry sauce -> 3 mins cooking or so. I popped in the pre cooked meat, put the whole thing in a takeaway dish, srpinkled it with coriander, put the lid on, and set it aside. I went to get a beer from the offy, and ate the curry about 1 hour later, after heating it in the micro wave. It was a 100% spot on replica of chicken Bhuna, as served by the Bengal Spice, Oxford.
The things notable to me about my method this time were
1. Generous helping of very well cooked onions, falvouried with cinnamon - I used a lot more of these than in previous recipies
2. I flambed the pan a LOT (still dont know if this makes any difference, will have to conduct an experiment)
3. Smalll, (tiny) amount of spice used. I get the feeling that it didn't matter too much what the spice was; this time I used a regualr 'curry shop masala'
4. Tomato
5. Much more consiervative amount of chopped corinader used than I usually have.
6. Leaving it for 30 mins, leacing the house, coming to it fresh - Im sure this gives the dishj time to mellow and cool out, the flavours to come through in it.
I'm really going to nail this over the next 6 days. I intend getting exact measurments, cooking times, and eventually photos.
-
Ok, here we go.? I don't want to offend any of the lovely people on this forum but, this whole idea is ridiculous.
Well not only ridiculous but it defies logic and inteligence.? How can you not take a quantity of any ingredients and divide by 5, 10, 20 or 30 or whatever and not expect to get a similar result?
Similar yes, but not exactly the same which is what all the chefs ive spoken to have said in the past.
-
Hi Thomashenry,
Well done. You seem to be getting very close and wre using techniques and ingredient variations that a lot of us wouldn't have tried because we are trying too hard to stick to restaurant kitchen methods.
Keep up the good work, can't wait for your findings.
There are 1 or 2 questions that I have for you, but I will let you reach your conclusions first.
Well done again,
Blondie
-
Keep up the good work, can't wait for your findings.
Well, I've done it 3 times in 25 days now, and I'm not gettin excited yet, as the last two times I 'did it', I was then unable to do it the next day! This time I really want to consolidate what I'm doing.
It also has to be said that while this was a perfect replica of Bhuna from Bengal Spice, this is not my fav BIR bhuna by a long shot! haha
what are your qs btw?
-
I wonder what is considered by indian chefs, the smallest amount of base you can make which tastes correct?
Thomashenry has mentioned something else important too.
He leaves the curry a while before eating it.
Others have said this too.
When you buy a takeaway it sits in the carton for maybe 10 to 15 minutes before you get to eat it.
This would give the new spices a while to blend/cook.
I have been serving a lot of my curries straight from cooking.
That is definitely wrong to do.
They need to "rest"
-
I find I just don't fancy eating curry if ive been making them, usually reheat and eat it a good couple of hours later. I don't know if it makes that much difference in taste and also if a "rest" period was required for the "taste" to come out then how does this work if your having a sit-in?
-
Re: The taste we desire can only be achieved by cooking in quantities...Many people may disagree with these comments. Sorry, I just try to speak the truth as I find it.
I don't disagree. I think you're right. I don't accept different quantities as a valid reason whey cooking at home should not produce the same taste as cooking in a restaurant kitchen. High flames, tandoor oven, skilled chef, correct spice mix - yes. Vast quantities - no.
-
The main reason I think quantity plays a part, is because you get told so, and we have all found difficulties recreating what we want.
Take this thread from Mark J:-
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=279.0
Quote
"He was adamant that it cant be done at home and seemed to indicate it was to do with quantities, he said the amounts of spice are very important."
Why would people say these things to us, when they are trying to help us?
There are loads of other quotes like this one, including some I have posted.
I don't understand
-
The main reason I think quantity plays a part, is because you get told so, and we have all found difficulties recreating what we want.
Take this thread from Mark J:-
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=279.0
Quote
"He was adamant that it cant be done at home and seemed to indicate it was to do with quantities, he said the amounts of spice are very important."
Why would people say these things to us, when they are trying to help us?
There are loads of other quotes like this one, including some I have posted.
I don't understand
The 'quantity matters' doesn't hold any water with me. When you order a dish in a BIR, they make 1 serving of that dish for you. They make a dish on the same scale as we make them at home. They are not making a motherload, where margins for error are much higher.
The area where it is at least logically possible that quantity plays a role is in making base sauce: and I think Dhiillon base sauce, made accurately is 100% suitable for BIR use anyway.
-
>> Generous helping of very well cooked onions >>
My only concern about this is that all the best currys i've had are a very smooth gravy, with no 'bits' in it at all.
Other peoples' currys may have bits in though.
-
Some people may not like this but:
I strongly urge the members of this forum to forget the whole idea that 'this can't be done at home'. - I know it is a great excuse every time your NOT overjoyed with the curry you've just cooked. But it simply CANNOT be true. Sure, all the BIR chefs and bosses would love us to think that - and I don't blame them at all, it's their livelyhood.
As long as we accept this (that it can't be done at home) rubbish, we will be hampered continually, because there's always that excuse for failure, when the truth is that we still have a bit of work to do yet.
My curries have improved dramatically since this forum started. If that correlation continues, then I will be even better at some time in the future.(logic) :)
Oh by the way, can someone give me one(or more) good reason why, I would tell you excactly how to cook something at home - which I continually charge you ?7 for?
-
The main reason I think quantity plays a part, is because you get told so...
I've learned not to believe everything I'm told. I think this excuse is either because the chefs don't know the real reason or, if they do, they certainly don't want to tell their customers.
-
This is not true. I have achieved 'the taste', and reporduced perfect imiatation takeaway dishes 3 times now. I've made curry every night for the last month (really), with the quest of hitting the nail on the head. I've done it three times - what I can't do is reliably reproduce it. As a result, I'm unable (so far) to? identify exactly what it was bout what I did one time that wa right, and what was not etc.
I chop 3-4 onions very finley - some finely dived, some finley sliced into small strips. I fry these gently in plenty of oil, with a bit of base sauce, and a desert spoon of *cinnamon* on them. I slowly fry them for 30-40 minutes, until they are totally soft, see through, and sweet.
At the end of last year I made four brilliant vindaloo curries which I knew to be as good as I ever would get.
Everyone who tried them said the same.
They had the "eat every last bit of it" flavour.
Almost the same as a restaurant but fresher.
And................I don't know what I did right.
I am currently backtracking to try and do it again.
When I do, I will post it.
One of the problems is that I try too many different things.
I get enthusiastic whenever I see an interesting post, or if I chat with a chef.
I have read several post regarding adding pre fried onions.
So I started adding them to my curries as a matter of course.
They only improve it.
Here I go experimenting again..........
What about making the 600ml oil base but cook the onions in more oil for an hour, then add the water and other ingredients.
One thing seems clear to me, is that when we achieve the taste, it will not be through the standard methods used in a takeaway.
-
And one other thing my takeaway owner said was that HE cant recreate it at home either! When he cooks curry he says his kids tell him "bring it home from the restaurant dad"
I dont know if the quantity thing is right or not, my gut feeling says it should be possible to reproduce at home (and I believe I can do)
Im sure that some BIR owners will talk bullshit but this guy I talk too just seems genuinly interested in helping me, he is amused by the idea. I obviously know a massive amount of what goes on in the background of a BIR and when talking to a chef I know if they are bullshiting.
A case in point, I talked to my local restaurant, I asked about the curry powder and they said "its a special mixture known only to the chef, you cant reproduce it" - total bullshit
The same question to this guy - "Its just curry powder", I say "I use rajah, is that ok", "yeah thats fine, the actual make isnt really that important"
-
Some people may not like this but:
I strongly urge the members of this forum to forget the whole idea that 'this can't be done at home'. - I know it is a great excuse every time your NOT overjoyed with the curry you've just cooked. But it simply CANNOT be true.? Sure, all the BIR chefs and bosses would love us to think that - and I don't blame them at all, it's their livelyhood.
One comment my takeaway chef/owner said was its difficult to get the spicing right, I wonder if this is compounded when making smaller quantities and hence his comment you cant make the base at home.
-
I've made curry every night for the last month (really)
How much weight have you gained, if you don't mind me asking? I'd be concerned about salt and certain other factors too. Every visitor to this forum should be grateful to generous pioneers like you for putting so much effort into this quest. But, pray don't harm your health, let alone become a martyr, heaven forbid, in the process.
-
Perhaps when the chefs say the curry base can't be done at home, they mean that they never do it, and consequently don't know how.
I am puzzled by Mark J's restaurant owner's comments.
The scale we work on is so much smaller.
Maybe it's like trying to make a scaled down nuclear expolsion.
If it could be done, then you wouldn't do it the same way.
One thing did occur me.
The pot they use for the curry base, may be a different shape to our pots.
This would affect how much oil comes up the side of the pot when cooking.
If it is proportionatly wider, then the oil will be very shallow.
If proportionatly taller, then the oil will come up higher.
It would make the difference of ingredients being shallow fried or deep fried.
-
>> Generous helping of very well cooked onions >>
My only concern about this is that all the best currys i've had are a very smooth gravy, with no 'bits' in it at all.
Other peoples' currys may have bits in though.
Vindaloos are generally smooth, but other dishes that I order in BIRs invariably have thicker sauces with stuff in them I find, apart from one particular curry house (which is atrocious!).
My attempt at copying my BIR success met with failiure last night; I failed to re-create the magic, although I was not far off. Ive got 4 more nights of my current batch of base sauce, then I'm off the curries for a while, so fingers crossed.
-
Did you leave the curry for a few hours after cooking it?
-
Did you leave the curry for a few hours after cooking it?
Not that long, more like 10. The one I did the night before was left for 30; so I will revert to that.
A new idea has struck me; garam masala, we have generally agreed is not a good thing. I've got a small jar of home made stuff, made to Dhillon spec. Its very similar to my East End packet. From memory, it contained coriander seeds, cumin, two colours of cardomman, cloves, black pepper, cassis bark, and nutmeg.
Coriander seeds and cumin seeds are friendly. Black cardommans have the smokey aroma that we often talk about, but no-one has found a way of harnessing them for this yet. Cassia bark/cinammon is a flavour I've definatly identified in most of my favoruite BIR dishes.
Therefore, I am going to make a new batch of home made garam masala, but will omit the cloves, pepper and nutmeg. I think these are the 'baddies' in the mix. Cumin, coriander, caroomans + cassia bark ought to be a lot more up our street.
As ever, will report on success/failure of this.
-
I've made curry every night for the last month (really)
How much weight have you gained, if you don't mind me asking? I'd be concerned about salt and certain other factors too. Every visitor to this forum should be grateful to generous pioneers like you for putting so much effort into this quest. But, pray don't harm your health, let alone become a martyr, heaven forbid, in the process.
I've not gained any weight that I've noticed. I'm a pretty skinny bloke (6'2", 11 stone), and have been the same weight since I was about 16, so a month won't do my any harm! I think after this month is up, I'm going to cut back to one batch of curry sauce a month (hence 6 dishes). This doesn't include authentic indian food, whihc I cook a lot (and is very healthy :))
-
There is a conundrum for me when it comes to chefs being unwilling to give away trade secrets. How do any new curry houses ever open?
I hope this doesn't cause anyone any offence but I've only ever seen one "caucasean" waiter in a BIR (that I can remember) and certainly no owners have been of that ethnicity. BIR's are still on the increase in the UK I believe so it stands to reason that someone is training people somewhere so that the demand for chefs can be met - do they all come through the course mentioned in an earlier thread I wonder? If I were ever in a position to consider opening a BIR I also wonder? how difficult it would be to learn the trade secrets needed to crack the taste, and wonder if it something of a closed shop along ethnic grounds - hence the make up of most BIR staff. Is it true the vast majority of BIR owners/staffs are from a particular region of Bangladesh?
I don't mean any racist implications, I'm just trying to reflect my experience of all the BIR's I've been in - you would think that at least a few "caucasean" entrepeneurs would have entered the market by now, given how popular curry is, and has been for years now. Please excuse any ignorance..