Curry Recipes Online
Supplementary Recipes (Curry Powders, Curry Paste, Restaurant Spice Mixes) => Supplementary Recipes Chat => Topic started by: Panpot on November 07, 2008, 02:40 PM
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I hope this is the correct location to post this.
I trust too that this wont be controversial in that this post may bring back some challenging memories for some of us who were about a couple of years ago. At the time someone who many of us ended up not trusting came onto the site with a big splash and finished by setting up another site taking with him a number of our contributors at the time.
He particularly annoyed a number of us with his post regarding a "Secret Ingredient" which was an onion paste which we later found out was copied form another source. Due to the general trouble and mistrust at the time I suspect many of us missed out in what he was getting at.
I eventually had a go with the idea but I am sure it was a modified recipe coming from the thread of experimentation and simple trial and error of members and dont remember it now. For many at the time I remember concerns of it taking to much time and something about a soapy smell. My own effort which turned out to be a dark red/brown paste was absolutely fantastic, it had the BIR smell and taste and having made a decent sized batch I froze it in ice cube trays for single portion use. To be honest It kept me going for a year and more and definitely made all the difference.
I ran out at the start of the summer and since I tend not to cook curries over the warmer months I assumed when I returned to the site a few weeks ago to make batches of base sauce and pick up on the forum and new recipes I would find the post and figure out how to make it again.
It has been removed probably for good reason which I can only understand and agree with but the resultant recipe was the business. I asked elsewhere for help and on another post I got the Link to the original recipe. I have made it and it does smell OK but its a green colour and without whatever I did as a result of the thread is missing something least of all the colour.
Can anyone help and maybe on our behalf Stew could go through the old thread if he still has it and gleam from its entirety the resultant versions that may give us all a chance to see if it can add any value to us, I know it will for me.
I certainly don't wish to open old wounds but there was something in this paste and I do see something similar being used by my local take away with an open kitchen. Cheers Panpot.
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There was a secret onion paste in the kris dillon curry secret book. i never thought much of it, but maybe i did not use, or make, it correctly. did anyone else get a good result with the kris dillon onion paste?
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I don't think I've been a member long enough to remember it. But I would certainly like to hear more about this one!
A brown onion paste?? Some have said that the missing '5%' is a savoury flavour, that others here have likened to French Onion Soup. The preparation of Onion soup involves frying and caramlization, techniques that DO produce a savoury taste. A paste that is brown and contains onion is likely to have been fried! Interesting! The counter point of view to this I supppose is that a paste is simply a thick 'bas sauce', that we all produce already, so perhaps those flavours should already be present in some base recipies?
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Was this it??
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1606.0
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Not being an expert like most on here I can't see:
The Secret Onion Paste (biggest secret!)
2 lge white onions, chopped finely
4 cloves garlic
3tbs vegetable oil
Pinch of cumin
Pinch of cinnamon
Being that much of a secret to be honest...
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Was this it??
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1606.0
LOL. That was an amusing read...
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hi pp try the Natco website it gives the original recipe which had been ripped off. the so called "secret ingredient" is now no longer used elsewhere. but opinions varied on the results again there is regional differences to take into consideration. but for many it was not the answer. imho there is no secret magic ingredient and a more than happy that i can reproduce Rajver chicken vindaloo/madras/chilli masala/korma( have made for my friend and they love it, not chilli heads) and phall(the DB). i no longer measure my ingredients but do it so regularly and i lay all my ingredients out in their pots and use my chefs spoon same method every time. my recipe for chicken tikka is adapted from the many on this site and my girls love it and my friends will be enjoying it tomorrow night i have 2 kilos marinating in my refridgerator by then it will have been 48hours yummy!
am also cooking a large korma possibly with some of the tikka and a vindaloo, gits onion bhajis and poppadums fresh( will save the oil for next base) and may have talked myself into making an aloo gobi as well oh and don't forget the mint sauce!
will let you all know how it goes ;)
regards
gary
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hi pp add 3 tbsp TRS tandoori masala 3tbsp tom puree 6 spanish onions 12 cloves garlic 3 chefs pinches of each cumin/cinnamon 150ml sunflower oil cook on low heat until you no longer smell the raw onion/garlic stirring regularly it takes about 90 mins or longer. hope this helps
regards
gary
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Was this it??
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1606.0
That thread is so funny
It almost wandered into an episode of Fawlty Towers
How could Andy deny the similarity?
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Hi Panpot (and welcome back) :)
This was the original post. I hope it helps:
Here is the recipe for the pre-cooked paste as mentioned in my post under cooking methods. You can half or even one third this recipe down again for home use. We normally do twice as much as this in one go.
6 spanish onions, chopped finely
12 cloves garlic, chopped finely
150ml sunflower oil
3 chefs pinches of cumin
3 chefs pinches of cinnamon
3 tablespoons of TRS tandoori massala powder
3 tablespoons of tomato paste
The raw onion and garlic are placed into a blender and water is added to about halfway up the side of the blender. The contents are blended until the mixture is well smoothed.
Place the oil in a pan and heat on a high heat till near smoking. Add the blended mixture. Be careful as it will spit back at you.
Quickly stir the mixture around in the oil. Reduce the heat down. As we do this on a gas cooker controlling the heat is easy. If you are using an electric hob you will know best about controlling the heat.
You have to keep stirring now regularly. Add the cumin, cinnamon, tandoori masala powder, and the tomato paste.
STIR IN WELL.
The idea now is to fry very slowly while the water is evaporated off. Not easy the first time you do this but the aroma is superb.
Keep stirring very regularly. The paste is ready when no virtually no steam is being evaporated off and the paste resembles soft bread dough.
The finished paste does not fall off the spoon when tipped
Turn off the heat and place the paste in a container and cover with oil.
It's interesting that you had such good results with it and suggests that it might be worth pursuing. However, I tried it and ended up throwing it in the bin. Maybe I did something wrong.
As far as I'm aware (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong?) this onion paste was never seen or heard of again in any subsequent curry recipes by the poster.
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As far as I'm aware (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong?) this onion paste was never seen or heard of again in any subsequent curry recipes by the poster.
Yes, for something so important, you would have thought it would be an addition to nearly all his curries
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Well, enough people whos opinions I respect have posted above, to influance me not to bother going down this road!!
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this is the original post.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1515.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1515.0)
i don't feel the results/opinions were conclusive - many people seemed to have difficulty making it.
i've not got the TRS but have rajah (which i think having seen them both on the shelf in my local store) should be similar.
i'll give it a try. it sounds very dangerous though (adding water to smoking oil)
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Thanks,Unclebuck,Bod68,Parker21,CoryAnder and everyone else who have commented.The
variation including the tandoori masala and the tomato paste account for the red/brown colour and I am sure now it was CA's version I followed. For such a small contribution to this site this little idea caused a lot of trouble and interesting to see again some people here dismiss it without trying it.
It could be regional variation that helped people to turn away from it or the time to cook it and I now remember the 90 minutes of stirring it after it got to the bread dough stage but hey in my case it made all the difference. Many who had a go with me actually burned it and understandably didn't have another go for fear of yet another wasted 90 minutes.
The smell of it coming out of the ice cube tray was fantastic even a year later.
It was called the "Secret Ingredient" it came into our awareness, it caused a real load of controversy and it disappeared as fast as it came. It has not been found in recipes here once Andy and those who followed him left. I don't know if it is used on the site he started but I absolutely know that in my 30 year search for the perfect BIR copy it made a significant difference and precisely because it did I came looking for it again and asked for your help.
I realise that risking 90 minutes of constant care and attention to what on the face of it seems such an insignificant thing seems just too much for some but I would welcome some of us having a go and comparing notes.
I made the version that came back to me a couple of weeks ago from another post but it was the one without the tandoori paste and tomato paste, it turned out a light green colour but does have remnants of the smell of the one I made at the time of the controversy.
I intend to make CA's version later this week and will use the one above with my curries tonight.
Thanks for contributing to this for me, I will report back in due course.
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I didn't really dismiss it I was just commenting on just those few ingredients cooked until it makes a dough like mixture can make any sort of difference...
Anyway as I haven't tried I cannot really comment but may take a stab later this afternoon :)
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i have it on the go at the mo 60 mins in. tastes good
observations so far:
1) it's going to take much more than 90 mins - i reckon more like 4 hrs. if u try and fry it too quick it just spits. i'm sort of fast simmering it with the lid on and a spoon in the pan to enable the evap
2) adding the paste to the hot oil was not that bad - held the lid over and used my chefs spoon
3) it looks just like the finished madras curry i'm craving for but alas no.
4) it's sweetened a bit after the 1st hr but needs much more cooking.
5) i can smell the cinnamon although a very sutle taste in the paste.
i'm missing the seasoning at the mo though - been watching too much of rosemary shrager's cooking school on channel 4.
pic 1 ingredients
pic 2 start of cooking
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it's done 3 hrs now and i feel there's no benefit cooking further.
it's started to stick at the bottom and needing more frequent stirring. the taste does not seem to have changed in the last 30 mins. i feel it's a paste that's being made and the "soft bread dough" analogy was not a good choice.
making it again i would puree the onion/garlic more as the finished paste is not as smooth as i would like (but i'm not sure that would matter after being cooked again in the final curry).
it tastes very good - very moorish. this taste is not far off the madras i'm after. i must admit i'm surprised how good the Cinnamon sits - i'd would naturally of used casia (generally preferring it's taste in Indian food).
the question now is will it close the gap and how do i use it.
on the 1st it's no good for CTM etc but it sits very well on the madras front. i'm quite hopeful.
on the 2nd i guess something like 1 tbsp after the base has gone in. any advice appreciated.
pic 1 finished
pic 2 how good it was
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Looking good Jerry. Perhaps trying this in Curry Kids recipe or any other recipe might help perhaps? I guess the caramelised flavour "does" something.
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Well, enough people whos opinions I respect have posted above, to influance me not to bother going down this road!!
Well you may rightly discount this particular onion paste, but do try instead a very well caramelised onion paste added at the end of cooking. I know this is used by some BIRs and it might be what you're looking for if you haven't already tried it. Start with a couple of tablespoons to see if it helps. You have to fry the onions on a very low heat for at least an hour, and they tend to catch, so you need to stir frequently. It's particularly good in Bhunas and madrases.
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Jerry - how did it turn out by adding it to a Madras?
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I have made it and it does smell OK but its a green colour and without whatever I did as a result of the thread is missing something least of all the colour.
Hi PanPot,
Did you note people's comments (in previous threads) about aluminium pans causing the paste to go green?
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I wonder if this onion paste is related to whatever they were cooking each night (and perhaps stiil are) on the Maliks web cam. That was something quite thick, kept cooking for ages, in a saucepan with the lid kept on. Is it added to the Maliks base sauce, do we know?
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Well you may rightly discount this particular onion paste, but do try instead a very well caramelised onion paste added at the end of cooking. I know this is used by some BIRs and it might be what you're looking for if you haven't already tried it. Start with a couple of tablespoons to see if it helps. You have to fry the onions on a very low heat for at least an hour, and they tend to catch, so you need to stir frequently. It's particularly good in Bhunas and madrases.
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Fair one SS, I'll give it a go! I've never been able to replicate the taste I found in one particular BIR in Leeds in 1982-1985, called 'The Islamabad'. The currys their were all dirt cheap, and all the dishes were tasted almost the same, they all had a lovely savoury aroma 'though. I still miss that taste, & I have found it no where else!
I'd be interested to hear more about the circumstances in which you saw this being done in a BIR.
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i've not had chance to try the paste in a madras yet (was on CTM last night - will post in CK's recipe post). i was waiting to see how to best use it.
i will follow Secret Santa's suggestion to add at the end of cooking. 1 tbsp would seem good for me as it's pretty potent stuff.
i used a stainless steel pan to cook in with a heavy bottom (helps prevent the sticking).
i tend to think it is what malik's make with the lid on. i think they use it in some of the dishes though not in the base - it's that very red stuff that appears now and again from the worksurface in front of the cooker ie behind the chef. i'd probably say they use it in CTM but the recipe would have to be different to the CK recipe i use as otherwise the tandoori masala would be in overload.
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JerryM your a star for having a go here and for suplying us with the photographs. I am wondering if you added more water than was necessary when you blitzed it in the blender. I found both in this original and the one I prepared last week ( which turned out green )I had a bread dough thing happening after 45 Min's or so.
I used my original by keeping it frozen in ice cube trays roughly tablespoon size portions and used one portion per curry melting it in towards the end of the cooking.
I didn't experiment with using it earlier on say together with tomato paste and with the spices and pressing it into the pan with the back of the chefs spoon but will in future.
How do you rate the smell of it once it cooled down and is it a paste in consistency?
CA thanks for the comment re the pan however I cooked it in my heavy nonstick multi purpose pan I use for bolognaise, chili etc,etc and the one I used for the original too so the green colour I feel was due to the limitation of basically onion and garlic where as the original I cooked was the one you found using the tandoori and tomato paste.
I genuinely feel this is part of the mix for Bhunas,Dopiazas,Madras etc etc but not as Jerry points out for CTM
Last night I used the green paste in CK's Bhuna but it made no significant difference unlike the red/brown original did as per my notes and memory of it. I intend to prepare the original some time this week. Incidently the meal included George's Chicken Korma as per Bobby Bhuna's recommendation and as ever accompanied with Curry Queens Pilou Rice,Starters were Onion Bhaji and Papadoms. My guests were delighted as usual and I get all the plaudits for the magic found in this site. Cheers Panpot
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Panpot,
the water was as per spec. i am very happy with the output. the longer cooking was down to my take on how best to cook it (slow boat as opposed to blitz). i don't feel either method changes the end result.
it is paste consistency and tastes sublime.
i too would go for using it in bhuna,dopiazas,madras. i only raised CTM as maliks use a very red paste in what seems to be CTM which very much resembles what i've made.
i am very much looking fwd to adding it to madras - i think it might just be what i've been missing.
thanks for the ice cube prompt - i've got it in the fridge under oil at the mo but will transfer to the freezer once i've tried it in the madras.
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i am very much looking fwd to adding it to madras - i think it might just be what i've been missing.
I am very much looking forward to hearing your results! ;D I've always said that my missing Madras ingredient was in Baxter's french onion soup, and this would tie in, since it's that caramelised onion flavour, albeit along with some others. Please get back to us on this asap Jerry,
much appreciated,
BB.
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I also note that this reminds me of a few recipes that I've seen that suggest adding Tandoori Masala to a curry. If my memory serves me, Kris Dhillon suggests adding a little Tandoori marinade and CA's Madras recipe has an optional half tsp of the stuff. This could be interesting.
I also note (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Rajah Tandoori Masala is the vibrant red mix whereas the TRS standard is the pink one, often preferred in the BIR recipes I've seen. Also worth noting, is the fact that in my nearest Indian Cash and Carry, they have massive bags of the TRS one but not the Rajah. This seems more important still, since most of their large bags are Rajah.
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Bobby,
i'm not sure if i've used the spirit of the as spec powder. i used the vibrant red mix (the rajah) as i though the TRS was the same vibrant red. i do have the pink (Leena) but not sure if this would give as good a result - one to ponder.
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i used the vibrant red mix (the rajah) as i though the TRS was the same vibrant red.
I'm afraid that's what I have in cupboard too. I'll be getting the TRS this week though. If you like I can pick you up a bag and send it to you. Let me know.
Cheers,
BB.
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Surprisingly; even though there are very few restaurants around here- and what there are are very expensive and pretty poor... There are copius amounts of Asian Supermarkets where they seem to stock absolutely EVERYTHING :)
I'm going to stock very soon and but myself a small freezer for christmas for lots of bases etc lol
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Bobby,
thanks for the offer - i intend to try it out 1st. i can get TRS if i need - i'm just not convinced if it is the pinker variety that it will be any good. i know that's strange given that "TRS" was specified in the as spec recipe. my pink stuff is Leena brand and very good for CTM. it's very different to the red stuff though and i can't see it working (the pink stuff) as good in this paste.
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Jerry, I've been talking nonsense again :P
I went to my Indian cash and carry and bought some TRS Tandoori Masala and it's vibrant red. I threw my Rajah as it's a year old or more, along with many of my spices that I have replaced.
That said the TRS smells different. It has a strong earthy smell. It is also finer.
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a bit of relevant intro:
the difference between success and fail must have very small margins. i've just made 4 off madras curry sauces. the 1st was a clear fail. i put this down to too little tomato puree (used 2 tbsp my norm but forgot the base i'm currently using has no tomato in it) and too much onion paste (used just over 2 tbsp). in pushing the stove & pan more (reduced the amount of water added to the tom puree) i almost burnt (family advised that these curry's don't smell good when they're cooked - must admit it did smell bad.
having learnt my mistakes the next 3 off went like a dream.
back to the onion paste.
after no 1 distaster i made 3 off identical madras curry sauces. each spot on. the onion paste works very well for me and my quest is over. i see very little chance of further fine tuning without inside knowledge.
the amount of onion paste added is critical. it needs to produce a subtle taste without the dish becoming out of balance. i added after the base had gone in
many thanks to Panpot for raising this post - i need to do a side by side comparison with BIR TA but feel my take is now as close as it needs to be - i feel i can now convert the madras curry sauce into a chicken madras dish.
the recipe for info: 300ml base, 2 tbsp yellow oil, 1.5 tbsp fine chopped garlic, 3 tbsp tom puree (2 tbsp if no tomato in base, with added water to runny consistency), 1/4 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp chilli, 1 tsp LB spice mix (not the plus version ie the std), 1 tsp rajah madras curry powder, 1 tbsp onion paste, big pinch frozen chopped coriander and splash worcester sauce (both added after the base gone in)
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the onion paste works very well for me and my quest is over. i see very little chance of further fine tuning without inside knowledge.
Hi Jerry,
Are you seriously saying that this onion paste has enabled you to get that "final 5%" that you have been looking for? :-\
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JerryM, your commitment to improve is amazing, hanks for sharing how you got on. I am delighted that at least two of us can verify that this "secret ingredient" does make a difference.
Is the subtlety that it adds to do with the smell ( which I remember even as it was in the ice tray frozen was fantastic ) or taste or both in my case.
Like you I added it after the base sauce towards the end but would be up for experimenting with it as the tomato paste goes in and the spices. Interesting that you use a branded madras powder and not a fresh mix. If you were making a bhuna or dopiaza or even a medium curry would you use a purchased curry powder rather than a a fresh spice mix?
Recently Bhoby Bhuna recommended two favourite BIR like curries, could you do the same? I would appreciate your advice with this. Cheers Panpot
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CA,
i'm going to have to say yes.
for sure it does not taste exactly the same as the madras from my local TA or my fav curryhouse back home in the midlands. this is what i mean by the "inside knowledge" required to get it tasting exactly the same.
i put the missing 5% down to asking the question if u put my kitchen onto the back of a BIR TA and i cook would anyone complain of the standard or detect that it was "essentially" fake (ie not in the trade).
i do need to do a side by side comparison to be sure. but based on the taste improvement i feel my 5% gap has closed significantly to the extent i feel it's no longer important (on madras).
i would not put the gap closure down totally to the paste but it is significant and the last piece of the jig saw for me personally. i've made a few changes recently and i'm still not totally convinced on using yellow oil as opposed to red.
the changes being:
1) slow boat cooking targeting emulsification (adding water to the tom puree)
2) adding salt at frying stage
3) making the base thin and evaping off after frying stage
these being things that most people already do but it's taken time for me to appreciate their value
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Great stuff Jerry it's amazing how you find all the time to do all this experimenting.
i put the missing 5% down to asking the question if u put my kitchen onto the back of a BIR TA and i cook would anyone complain of the standard or detect that it was "essentially" fake (ie not in the trade).
This is the thing for me, chances are no one would complain if you omit the onion paste. I have tried it a couple of times and it didn't really do a lot, certainly not the answer I have been looking for anyway. Maybe it is regional differences again?
for sure it does not taste exactly the same as the madras from my local TA or my fav curryhouse back home in the midlands.
It is probably because they don't use onion paste ;)
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I'd be interested to hear more about the circumstances in which you saw this being done in a BIR.
Ok, the first time I saw it used and explained was on one of those programmes where they try to get the people to cook their own food instead of getting it from a takeaway. The chef was from a real BIR and he basically said add a dollop at the end of cooking as that is one of the curry secrets!
The next time I saw it qwas on a news bulletin, I think, about immigration, and they went to a BIR and I saw the same paste being put in at the end of the dish he was preparing. Now I don't know of course that it was absolutely the same onion paste, but it looked exactly the same as the one on the first programme.
So I think it's fair to conclude that, at least in some BIRs, this caremelised onion paste is being used. You do have to add it at the end though or else it loses its potency.
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i'm going to have to say yes.
Awesome. I can't wait to try it! ;D
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i've had chance to do a side by side comparison.
the fine chopped garlic and cooked coriander are not present in the real BIR but my personal preference. the garlic must be their and added as a paste and the fresh coriander on top goes some way to my cooked version.
putting these 2 aside the taste was very similar. 2 things stood out:
1) the real BIR had significantly more tomato - this i find hard to take in as mine had 2 tbsp per portion of puree (3 tbsp actually to compensate for the base) which i feel is a lot. the taste is certainly not fresh tomato but i feel upping the tom puree might not be the way to go - maybe passata. one to experiment with a little.
2) the cinnamon in the onion paste is too strong. either the amount of paste or the amount of Cinnamon needs reducing. i feel the 1 tbsp of paste feels right so intend to reduce the cinnamon by 1/2 on the next make (i used 1 tsp and will reduce to 1/2 tsp).
other than these slight differences the 2 curries sat very close - enough for me to confirm my initial observation stands - the paste is spot on and significant ie the curry is better (towards BIR) with it than without it.
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Jerry
I use extra pureed tinned plum tomarto in my madras, someone else here does this also(CK perhaps?). It adds a extra very slightly sour 'tomarto-y' taste with the cloying sweetness of puree. About 3 tbs per 450ml of base. You need some puree too.
Another avenue that might be worth exploring is tomarto ketchup. Suprising I know but lots of British Chinese Restaurants (BCRs ??) do that. It add a differnt tomarto note again, obviously sweeter (than puree even), but it might be worth exploring. Madras from 'The Vogan' in Merstam (near me) tastes of ketchup. I wouldn't be at all surprised if BIRs used it, it's cheap and easily availble. After all some of them use cream of tomarto soup and Worchestshire sauce!
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CA,
i'm going to have to say yes.
I have to say that I am amazed Jerry.
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Adrian,
thanks for the thoughts - appreciated. i will try the "extra pureed tinned plum tomato" - i've not seen it before but feel it's something along those lines that i'm after. it's certainly not tomato sauce. it's not fresh tomato as i know how this works in a rogan josh for example.
CA,
not as amazed as me. i feel we all have different pieces of the jigsaw left to find. it just seems to be that this paste is the last piece for me (other than getting the tomato taste right).
i really am surprised that it works so well together and i feel this what makes it so good (the combination). the cinnamon on it's own would not even be on my short list and the rajah tandoori as been put firmly on the BBQ shelf. the rest of the ingredients are what we are used to.
it gets difficult to put in words the taste difference but i guess in a nutshell i've always felt there is a sort taste in the back of the throat from a real BIR which i did not get before with my efforts (not chilli but a moorish taste). the paste fixes this for me and also seems to make the curry more rounded.
if people have previously tried it without success then i feel this may be down to the "fast" cooking method in the instructions. i adopted a slowboat simmer and feel this made it easier to cook with and a much higher likelihood of producing the intended finished paste "The paste is ready when no virtually no steam is being evaporated off".
i think it most probably also depends on what type of BIR curry u like. i've been brought up on "red" curry ie plenty of garlic/onion/tomato. i don't for example like the "brown" curry (found in some restaurants in rusholme or Bradford for example).
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One last thought on the onion paste.
for me the paste is not something to be dolloped into every dish to convert into BIR. It's for selective use as and when needed ie when it compliments the other ingredients.
where to use - i'm learning but madras is one for sure. as an opposite example - Admins Jalfrezi - certainly not (it does not need it and would probably spoil the dish).
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thanks for the thoughts - appreciated. i will try the "extra pureed tinned plum tomato" - i've not seen it before but feel it's something along those lines that i'm after. it's certainly not tomato sauce. it's not fresh tomato as i know how this works in a rogan josh for example.
I also use this method Jerry as I like my curry's with that extra tomato taste you can't get from puree.
not as amazed as me. i feel we all have different pieces of the jigsaw left to find. it just seems to be that this paste is the last piece for me (other than getting the tomato taste right). I think it most probably also depends on what type of BIR curry u like. i've been brought up on "red" curry ie plenty of garlic/onion/tomato. i don't for example like the "brown" curry (found in some restaurants in rusholme or Bradford for example).
This is the point, it is something you are trying to find rather it actually being the key to the "taste". Great that you have found what you are looking for Jerry but my opinion of the paste hasn't changed, I certainly don't feel the need to make it for a third time ;D
As SS has suggested, there was someone a while ago that proclaimed pre-fried onions were added to every dish towards the end, finely chopped and fried they should disappear into the sauce. Again they made a slight change but not enough for me to use this method on a regular basis.
Funny enough I have just finished a dopiaza where I use pre-fried onions, I will post some pic's later.
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JerryM as ever thanks for your level of commitment and experimentation. A couple of points,
CK it could be regional variation but JerryM is somewhere East of Liverpool and I am from Glasgow yet I believe this paste makes critical difference.
I am probably going to have to also post this on the thread re myths but I also think that the paste together with the single Ali pans together with the high heat initial frying of the spices and tomato looking paste scraped as they are from the bottom before the quick evaporation of the base sauce once introduced and the possible burning of splashes as the flames lick the sides all contribute. In my local TA they do add an onion looking paste or prefried onions or a combination of both towards the end also as soon as the base goes in they add 2/4 wedges of fresh tomato.
I am fully expecting to get into a Glasgow BIR kitchen soon so should be able to give decent report of all that goes on.
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Hi Panpot,
It might not be regional differences more different chefs than anything else, I guess they take the recipes when they move rather than adapt to the restaurants norm.
I am fully expecting to get into a Glasgow BIR kitchen soon so should be able to give decent report of all that goes on.
That would be good, out of all the reports and insider information we have on the site this paste has never come up, now that might be because it really is a secret ingredient or the majority of BIR's just don't use it.
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CK your probably correct and the paste is not a true secret but in my many years of searching for the BIR smell & taste using the onion paste takes me closer but only on appropriate dishes as JerryM points out. I do hope I make real progress by getting back stage and witness first hand all that's going on. I can't wait to post my experiences cheers Panpot
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It could be that the onion paste emulates something that naturally occurs during the curry making process in a BIR, I'm sure if it was a standard practice it would have come up somewhere else by now. This is why a get together would be invaluable, we could all see where we are and what we are looking at achieving, I'm sure ten of us would have ten differnent ideas of the perfect madras. The bottom line is if respected curry nuts like you and Jerry say it works then I am not going to argue with that.
Curry on 8)
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After Jerry's positive results, which I trust, I am now on the job. This is stinking my house out something rotten! ;D
It is also taking far longer than it should! Here's hoping!
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It is also taking far longer than it should! Here's hoping!
Which begs the question, would BIRs really have the time to attend to this?
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Which begs the question, would BIRs really have the time to attend to this?
I'll tell you what begs the question... why does it smell like crap and why I am thinking I'm about to butcher up an otherwise decent Madras ;D
I'm thinking at this stage, that this is madness!
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BB - please report back. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
I'm going to try the Ashoka banjarra which seems like the same sort of concept as this.
Oh, and what about it smells so bad? Is it not just fried onions?
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BB - please report back. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
What a complete waste of time. I added a couple of tbsps of the paste, and have nothing positive to report back. :-\ Don't do it.
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In summary my madras is slightly more garlicy and has hints of tandoori masala. No surprise really.
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Oh, and what about it smells so bad? Is it not just fried onions?
No Josh, when you blend the onion and garlic it smells very strong indeed when cooking, similar to the KD stench ;D
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Weird. Two totally opposite camps on this onion paste stuff.
Forgot there was garlic in there too.
Never tried the KD, but from all accounts its a step backwards from where we are... kinda like onion paste ::)
Think I will still give the Ashoka paste a go, must satisfy the curiosity.
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Bobby,
sorry it did not work for u. it just must be down to differences in what people like and have been brought up on. it does it for me for sure (i've a strong preference for red curry) and along with the passata - i'm in heaven.
i'd just add for anyone still wishing to try it - the emphasis is not to rush the cooking - this for me is a very slow cooking job - that way as well it does not need a lot of looking after until near the end (last 1/2 hr). 3hrs was how long i cooked it.
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i'd just add for anyone still wishing to try it - the emphasis is not to rush the cooking - this for me is a very slow cooking job - that way as well it does not need a lot of looking after until near the end (last 1/2 hr). 3hrs was how long i cooked it.
Hey Jerry, sorry if I came off offensive with my post, having serious woman problems and when I reread my posts that comes through.
I gave mine about 1 to 2 hours on 2 and 3 on the electric hob, using the cooler setting as the paste thickened. I should mentioned here, I divided the ingredients by 4, as it says you can scale. I also took a chefs pinch to be about a half tsp. I added a fair amount to the all but finished Madras but to be honest I just didn't get any new flavours. I sometimes use a half tsp tandoori masala (see CAs madras optional ingredients). I have also experimented with the use of last minute caramalised onion, tomato paste volume and amount of garlic. This didn't work out any better for me. That said, I totally agree that if that gets you closer to your standard BIR madras then that's great, although I'm surprised that given all your experimentation with the things i've mentioned, you haven't also reached a similar taste.
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Bobby,
had not read your post as offensive - there's some effort in making the paste and if it don't work then that's clearly not good. (btw getting the right woman in your life is the no 1 - enough said).
i used 1/3 tsp and thought this too much for the Cinnamon but now it's been in the fridge a while it's mellowed. the fact u used 1/2 tsp i feel should have suited your stronger taste buds. best wishes going fwd.
might try the direct addition of 1/2 tsp tandoori masala - had missed this somehow
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i've settled on my thoughts for making this paste.
i've now only use the as spec TRS masala instead of the rajah i'd used previously. a wet finger tasting easily confirms the powders are very similar but the TRS for me the better. the rajah is much more salty.
i've copied an idea from Panpots bunjarra (which i also make) of using a 4" stick of cinnamon instead of powder. for me it produces a far better taste.
i've tried leaving out the early stage of adding the blended onion to hot oil in favour of a slow simmer throughout the cooking (typ 3 hrs). this is not a good idea as the onions take a lot longer to cook. aesthetically the paste/oil does not brown as much either.
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i've been alternating between the 2 off cooking methods to establish which is easiest and whether any loss in taste results (the other being the ashoka method : http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3189.msg28517#msg28517 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3189.msg28517#msg28517))
i feel i've settled on the ashoka method of cooking ie not blending up front but cooking chopped onion and then blending at the end. i feel the blending upfront method takes longer to cook and is not as easy to detect visually when the end of cooking is reached (for me when the oil starts to separate & paste starts to stick with a yellow tinge on the base of the pan when stirring).
as for which recipe to use - i still can't make my mind up as i although they taste different on their own the difference in the final dish is hard to detect.
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This is my attempt at the secret onion paste - 3.5hrs cooking time.
(http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj465/clairef1000/BunjaraSmall.jpg)
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This is my attempt at the secret onion paste - 3.5hrs cooking time.
windybum,
only realised that u'd included the below link when i was replying (pic did not show intially)
http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj465/clairef1000/BunjaraSmall.jpg (http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj465/clairef1000/BunjaraSmall.jpg)
will be interesting how u feel it tastes. the cooking time of 3.5hrs sits well with me but the colour looks darker than what i get. your's looks as if it's far more caramelised (and if so probably better than my attempts).
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Hi,
Regarding the secret onion paste photo above, i feel due to the longer cooking time the smokey burnt flavour was really present in this paste, i did not add cinnamon powder i used a two inch piece of cassia bark and removed it after two hours, just enough i feel.
I will make the ashoka paste again to compare again. I think i will caramelise the ashoka paste further next time to get a better comparison, but overall I'm undecided on which i prefer at the moment, both are good.
I found a recipe on another site called Punjabi onion paste which is made in the microwave... i may give that ago some time soon..
When adding onion pastes to my dishes i do think it finishes the dish off in terms of that smokey Moorish flavour and will keep a batch in the fridge at all times
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Hi,
i feel due to the longer cooking time the smokey burnt flavour was really present in this paste
thanks windybum. i think i am certainly cooking it less than u and will need to up the heat a little more (i use very low) to try and copy your result for comparison too.
interesting that u used casia. i used to swear by it but have recently warmed to Cinnamon.
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I found a recipe on another site called Punjabi onion paste which is made in the microwave... i may give that ago some time soon..
Hi Windybum,
I'd be really interested to see that recipe if you're willing to share it. :)
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had a go yesterday at getting the "darker" version of the paste.
it did not work out and i've given up on it as i'm now convinced that it already turns out good enough.
i cooked the paste for 4 hrs (instead of 3hrs) and used a hotter temp than normal. still very low heat though (after the initial fry) but hotter in that it was constantly catching on the bottom of the pan as opposed to normally just the last 1/2 hr or so.
the colour did not change but the paste became very dry and was difficult to blend at the end. i needed to add extra water and oil. i also endued up with only 1/2 the amount that i normally get so it must be very condensed in flavour (although it did not taste it). i will start out using 1 tsp during cooking c/w 1 tbsp normally.
have attached pic of the bottled product.
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Jerry,
I think the intent is to caramelise the onions. If so, you should use just a little oil and fry gently, using low heat. The onions should caramelise (i.e. turn brown and sweet) after about 20 minutes or so (not 4 hours! :o)
If you use too much oil the onions will fry rather than caramelise.
If you cook them for too long they will burn rather than caramelise.
A little sugar or vinegar is often added to help caramelise the onions.
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CA,
i too am convinced that the intent is to caramelise. The trouble is the Tandoori Masala adds colouring (as well as the flavour which i like when combined with the cinnamon) and masks what's going on in the cooking.
I normally keep tasting a little and find it changes in taste between 2 and 3 hrs.
Given your prompt i think i will do a control next time making a 2nd batch without the tandoori masala - that way i'll be able to see how the natural colour of the onion changes.
i think i might also add the little sugar as u suggest - won't do any harm at all.
the taste i get tastes good to me - i was just a little concerned that i may not have been getting the full flavour. as u say i now believe that the longer cooking time is not required.
many thanks for thoughts - appreciated.
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i did not have time making my last base to make the onion paste (which i normally do in parallel). none of the family knew this happened. no one spotted that the paste was missing. i could tell - but there was not as much a difference as i'd expected.
i've change my thoughts on onion paste to optional as opposed to essential.
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i've never really made my mind up when to use the paste - with the spice or after the base. i've seen both and together i think in the Askoka recipes.
i've always used it after the base has gone in - thinking that it's already precooked.
the video link Secret Santa posted recently convinced me to try adding with the spices. i've tried this over the last 10 off curries and feel it's better and have adopted going fwd.
it seems top produce a more rounded dish taste.
i've also done a head to head on the 2 off methods of cooking - blend & cook or cook and blend. the cook and blend remains my preferred method (quicker and more caramalisation)
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i've never really made my mind up when to use the paste...always used it after the base has gone in - thinking that it's already precooked.
I think it depends on the curry that you are making. If you add it in with the spices it tends to lose its power and, as you say, you get a more rounded (subtle) flavour from it.
If you are making a dupiaza though, where onions are the predominant featutre of the dish, I stir it in at the end, and only heat it through for a few seconds just to bring it back to the right temperature. This way you retain the oniony, caramelised taste, and some of the onion texture.
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I think it depends on the curry that you are making.
Secret Santa,
i can go along with that - probably unknowingly why i'd not really been able to make my mind up. will keep it in mind - bhuna is one of the dishes i make a lot but did not try out with the new approach. might try converting to dupiaza as well at some point.
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i've adopted the gordon ramsey which i guess is chef standard of tasting everything.
the last few batches of bunjarra have been disappointing - the taste was just not right.
i still alternate between the original and the ashoka and thought perhaps i was just getting mixed up. i then thought i was getting a tad complacent on the cooking which is critical. you also question down to the difficulty of measring them accurately if i was just inconsistent in the amount used.
i've been using the cinnamom in ifindforu's staff curry and although harder to work out felt this had same problem.
in short have bought a new bag TRS. the previous bag being East End. they do look different. taste them and the difference is huge. both from china too.
will be dumping the east end. the recent experience thanks to ifindforu on mix powder read eastern star curry powder and jalpur - has made me aware of brand difference. sadly it may extend further across the ingredients than we would expect.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/24ba3a02b5b99ebceb076c360c93f20f.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#24ba3a02b5b99ebceb076c360c93f20f.jpg)
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I've been through similar trials over the years with onion pastes, but to date the best I've come across, and the one I use as the default bunjarra these days is from Mick Crawford's (CBMs) book (though I tend to cut back on the tandoori masala a bit).
Once you've got your cooking technique dialled and can get those onions nice and caramelised (takes about an hour), it's a winner.
Add a tablespoon or so about half-way through cooking the curry, then if you have the patience leave overnight for flavours to develop.
The result is one of the most intensely flavoured curries ever - and the closest I've ever got to that 'Glasgow taste' I've been chasing for the last three million years.