Curry Recipes Online

Curry Chat => Talk About Anything Other Than Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on November 09, 2008, 02:37 PM

Title: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on November 09, 2008, 02:37 PM
if u ever need a rest from the curry then pizza makes a good alternative. it's not that difficult to produce a reasonable result just a few hrs off and on during a spare afternoon.

i've had to copy it into word (from spreadsheet) to allow attachment so apologies for the format.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Unclebuck on November 09, 2008, 08:49 PM
thanks jerry
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: vindaloo on December 08, 2008, 07:27 PM
Nice one Jerry. I've found it quite difficult to find a dough recipe that I like. I'll be giving this a go. I usually make garlic bread though. Looking forward to it..I'll let you know how Iget on.  8)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on December 10, 2008, 07:08 AM
I usually make garlic bread though.

do u put garlic into the dough or do u use a fresh loaf and add butter/garlic mix.

i often do the latter for mex chilli - it works a treat especially with ice cold cider.

best wishes on the pizza.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: joshallen2k on December 15, 2008, 12:44 AM
I use a pizza dough recipe similar to this. I always add a little garlic powder, onion powder, and italian seasoning in the dough. Just a little does the trick.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: vindaloo on December 19, 2008, 03:25 PM
I usually make garlic bread though.

do u put garlic into the dough or do u use a fresh loaf and add butter/garlic mix.

I make my own base from scratch, and I have my home made (James Martin) garlic butter in the freezer. I cut off slices of the garlic butter and put them straight onto the base. Works really well. The garlic butter is really ace.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on December 28, 2008, 09:30 AM

I make my own base from scratch, and I have my home made (James Martin) garlic butter in the freezer. I cut off slices of the garlic butter and put them straight onto the base. Works really well. The garlic butter is really ace.

i sometimes do a garlic bread pizza but would add a sprinkle of rosemary. i must admit if i'm making garlic bread i mostly cheat. i either make it soft (use a bought loaf, slice but not cut through, spread the garlic/butter paste on each slice, re bake in foil ~15mins 180C) or crispy (use a bought french stick, slice through diagonally, paste each side but only a scrap on the intended bottom face, cook on metal plate/tin ~3 to 5 mins 180C)

i'd be interest in your own dough for comparison (always looking for new ideas).

of surprise to me - i've just switch kneading method to that used by rosemary shragger and getting better bread results. feel it would work equally for pizza. the method is stretch/tear the dough out in a line in front of u and then pull it back in using a rolling action into a ball, turn through 90 and stretch again. 10 to 20 mins seems to work.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Madchester on January 16, 2009, 06:30 PM
If you are using a domestic oven, cooking your pizza on a terracotta tile with the oven on its hottest setting produces great results.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 17, 2009, 12:55 PM
nice idea - i will look out for a decent size terracotta (~14") as it just might improve my results.

A new oven is what i really need so that i can control the top & bottom temps independently - my pizza's always cook ready on the base before the top and the compromise is a slightly crispier base than i'd like. the tile as opposed to the rimmed tin would allow the air to circulate more over the top.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: chinois on January 17, 2009, 02:25 PM
If you are using a domestic oven, cooking your pizza on a terracotta tile with the oven on its hottest setting produces great results.

That's the ticket. It definately improves the taste the quicker the pizza cooks!
I use heston blumenthal's technique of heating an iron pan (like le creuset) to max heat, flipping it upside down, putting the pizza on the base of it and putting under a grill in a fully heated oven. Close the door.
Not the safest method but it gets temperatures far hotter than your oven can normally put out. My pizzas cooked in 90 seconds, from fresh, homemade dough.
Aparantly a proper pizza oven in italy should cook them in 90 secs, which is at 500c. They have guidelines for this now.
My pizzas were smaller so cooked quicker but the superheating from the red hot iron pan worked beautifuly. Nice mottled effect on the dough too. As tasty as a good restaurant.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Unclebuck on January 17, 2009, 03:17 PM
I'm very interested in making a pizza from scratch i going to attempt next week i hope.

Can i ask what are your favorite toppings?? I'm thinking of a chicken Tikka and cheese...Mmmmm
Title: Pizza / Earth Oven
Post by: Unclebuck on January 17, 2009, 05:09 PM
Don't know if any of you guys saw this the other day quite interesting i thought could even make some nice Tikka in there

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8876606173245233089&hl=en
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Madchester on January 18, 2009, 04:31 PM
Cooking on a terracotta tile has 2 benefits.  The first is that the tile holds a lot of heat so when you put your pizza on it the temperature of the tile remains very high resulting in quick cooking time.  The second is that a terracotta tile gives your pizza a stone baked taste, which is a big plus.  Using the tile method allows you to cook the pizza quickly giving you a crispy base which is still soft and not dried out.  This is a way of mimicking the conditions of a stone bake oven.

I've never thought of trying Naan bread this way, I think I will give it a go.  I reackon It may reproduce the blistering effect on the naan bread.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 19, 2009, 08:06 AM
I'm very interested in making a pizza from scratch i going to attempt next week i hope.

Can i ask what are your favorite toppings?? I'm thinking of a chicken Tikka and cheese...Mmmmm

Pepperoni is my fav (smart price asda) closely followed by dry rub and pre sealed/part cooked chicken in rajah tandoori masala (the dark red version).

Cheese is a must - i always use mozzarella.

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: chinois on January 19, 2009, 07:38 PM
Cooking on a terracotta tile has 2 benefits.  The first is that the tile holds a lot of heat so when you put your pizza on it the temperature of the tile remains very high resulting in quick cooking time.  The second is that a terracotta tile gives your pizza a stone baked taste, which is a big plus.  Using the tile method allows you to cook the pizza quickly giving you a crispy base which is still soft and not dried out.  This is a way of mimicking the conditions of a stone bake oven

Agreed. Although a piece of iron seems to get the stonebaked flavour as well. Completely agree how the heating from the bottom is usually the downfall when cooking these at home.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 22, 2009, 06:08 PM
for info have attached pic of the eqt i use. 2 off 14" dia tins, 1 off 12" tin, slice, cutter and handle for tins.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: vindaloo on January 22, 2009, 06:40 PM
Gotta say, this is EASILY by far, the best base yet for me  ;D

Very, very soft when kneading. Really good. It's also very good from frozen as well so I am able to make quite a bit and freeze it. I must admit, I whack all my ingredients in the bread machine to do all the kneading for me.

I stick my bread machine on No. 12 - Pizza base, and let it do it's magic for 1 hour 50 min. I do like my dough prepared well in advance so it's no good my girlfriend phoning me up at 3pm, expecting penne arrabiata at 6! I like to make it the night before or very early in the morning at the latest. It really is an extremely soft dough in your hands.

Can I just ask what yeast do people use? At the minute, I've got the Allinson yeast in the small yellow tin. I've also used Asda's own in the brown box (sachets).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: vindaloo on January 22, 2009, 06:45 PM
I forgot to add, I use a pizza stone. I love mine and would not be without one now. I was worried that it wasn't one of the super-thick ones that people recommend, but it does it's job well. It was only ?14 from Amazon and at that price, I thought I wouldn't miss it if it was crap or got broke. I always leave mine in the oven as well.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 24, 2009, 02:26 PM
well pleased the base suits u.

funny enough i used a bread machine just the same (until it broke) - found it better to bake bread in the oven though but the machine spot on for kneading both pizza and bread dough.

i use the allison type of yeast only for bread. i use "fast action" dried yeast for pizza dough. the short cooking time for pizza does not seem to suit the normal yeast ie allison type - u still get a sort of yeasty taste in the cooked pizza base. i buy the fast action from ASDA but I've also used tesco no probs. i've also used fresh yeast (ask at the bread counter in ASDA) and that works pretty good too.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: RebeccaVT on January 25, 2009, 09:17 PM
We love homemade pizza around here.  I stopped making the dough, however, when I discovered my grocery store sold really good balls of dough all ready to use.

I agree that using a stone and the hottest temperatures possible is the key to getting good homemade results.  I like the idea of using a heavy cast iron pan to make it even hotter.  In the summer, we love to cook pizzas on the bbq.
 
My favorite topping would be sauteed mushrooms and shallots with fresh buffalo mozzerella. Then, fresh out of the oven, drizzle with a bit of balsamic reduction. 



Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: vindaloo on April 10, 2009, 08:12 AM
i use the allison type of yeast only for bread. i use "fast action" dried yeast for pizza dough. the short cooking time for pizza does not seem to suit the normal yeast ie allison type - u still get a sort of yeasty taste in the cooked pizza base. i buy the fast action from ASDA but I've also used tesco no probs. i've also used fresh yeast (ask at the bread counter in ASDA) and that works pretty good too.

Cheers Jerry. I've swapped to the fast action yeast now...its great. The Alinson stuff in the yellow tin made the dough smell 'yeasty'. I do your recipe to the 'T' as its perfect!

Mark
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on April 10, 2009, 12:15 PM
vindaloo (Leic),

well pleased it's working out. we make twice a month.

well worth trying (an essential for me) is to put pre cooked chopped garlic on the cheese before cooking. i chop the garlic (i use 2 off whole bulbs for 6 off large pizza), add a little butter & oil oil (1 tsp ea) and microwave for 2 mins on full, stirring halfway.

i've also found (taken aback even) the Rosemary method of dough kneading well improves the dough in the cooked pizza.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on May 10, 2010, 07:58 PM
took a few pics of the Rosemary Shrager method of dough needing following canicant's post on naan (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4610.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4610.0)) which raised the subject of breadmachines for making dough.

i have had breadmachine in the past and they are good for making & proving dough. canican't has shown for naan bread they work a treat. i used to use mine for pizza dough but have never found a need to replace since using the rosemary kneading method. the rosemary method works a treat for proper bread (love the stuff - i add oregano to it).

it's worth pointing out that the manual kneading involves a fair amount of energy and it's not for everyone particularly if they need convenience. the kneading takes me around 10 mins for 2lb of flour but upto 20 mins might be needed until u get into it (develop u're muscles). the idea is to really work the dough - what i mean by this u need to aim to be rough with it and really stretch the dough without worrying if u end up tearing it.

hold the dough ball with 1 hand and push the dough ball away from u with the other hand - the hard part of u're palm (just in front of the wrist joint) - aim to stretch it as long as possible typ 500mm
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/f2a0f0941ede6631c380212c72b24a27.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#f2a0f0941ede6631c380212c72b24a27.jpg)

then roll it back up towards yourself (making a swiss roll)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/395185e673a6ce240898e214d9070b1f.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#395185e673a6ce240898e214d9070b1f.jpg)

turn it through 90 deg
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/11e144ce9d056edcaef40070d75030ed.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#11e144ce9d056edcaef40070d75030ed.jpg)

then stretch it back out again and then repeat the cycle
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/8597e21298df4fc7da246d513796001b.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#8597e21298df4fc7da246d513796001b.jpg)

don't for get to cover with a damp tea towel whilst it's proving
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Malc. on May 10, 2010, 08:24 PM
Interesting technique Jerry, i'll give it a go next time round.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on October 29, 2010, 06:05 PM
have had real U turn on the base dough

for those interested i will update spreadsheet added at the start of the post. there perhasps is not that much need as all anyone needs to know is amazingly here - a website i stumbled on called Forno Bravo.

http://www.fornobravo.com/#pizza_ovens (http://www.fornobravo.com/#pizza_ovens)

several things conspired to force this re think.

firstly UB's "wet" - high hydration really does work for me - it produces far softer dough than otherwise possible. YES it's quite sticky and you do have to handle it differently.

i made a smaller amount of dough last weekend and picked up using the original spreadsheet values - i had not realised that i gradually upped the water amount to 65%. the cooked pizza dough was rubbish in comparison to what i normally make (using the revised hydration ie 65%).

the next day was Lucky enough to be in casa in liverpool - lovely dough. much much softer than i can produced. this got me thinking that i needed to use proper pizza dough. i got a bag of this "00" stuff (by mcdougalls) and have been putting the whole pizza base making through it's passes ever since.

anyhow in short water has to be 65% of the flour by weight. plain flour is still my preference. out goes the oil and the milk powder.

the forno bravo really does have all the info needed - even down to chucking the rolling pin out. the amount of salt they use is a tad high for me (i cut it by half).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on October 31, 2010, 07:49 PM
tried the new recipe out and it works a treat. i'm well sold on it and taken aback by how much better is achieved with a more simple recipe.

i still think there is mileage in using whey powder and will keep an eye out for a local supplier - supermarket milk powder just does not cut it.

have attached revised spreadsheet which is "xls" file loaded as jpg.


http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/f47096bbbc518e67f4e28d5be1d76b0e.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/f47096bbbc518e67f4e28d5be1d76b0e.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 01, 2010, 09:18 AM
have attached revised spreadsheet which is "xls" file loaded as jpg.

Jerry - many thanks for this tip. What a good workaround!
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: martinr1000 on November 01, 2010, 11:01 AM
Hi,

it sounds like you are pretty happy with your dough formulation at the moment Jerry but if you are interested i've been looking in on this forum site for a while now which attempts to produce perfect restaurant pizza replicas in much the same we do for curry.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php)

i also bought a couple of books which are very good 'pizza modo mio' (may have to check the spelling) and american pie. can't think who the authors are.

hope it helps
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on November 01, 2010, 04:31 PM
martinr1000,

many thanks. was thinking i could do with joining a pizza forum.

ps have registered - looks good
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 01, 2010, 05:10 PM
What's everyone's favourite pizza place for (a) sit down meals and (b) takeaways?

I'd say my favourite restaurant chain is Pizza Express for their La Reine pizza
(Prosciutto, cotto ham, olives, mushrooms).

As for takeaways, I don't know. I've never ordered one.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on November 01, 2010, 06:59 PM
George,

we only go for sit downs - Casa Italia Liverpool is the place for us http://www.thecasaitalia.co.uk/ (http://www.thecasaitalia.co.uk/). local to us there is also a very good place in swinton near manchester.

for TA i can't believe how much places charge and never really been impressed with the quality.

toppings got to be pepperoni and red onion. i want to try smoked salmon but have never plucked up enough courage to give it a go.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Domi on November 01, 2010, 07:15 PM
http://www.orlandosrestaurant.com/ (http://www.orlandosrestaurant.com/) for me....and it's within walking distance from our house ;D though we rarely ever buy pizza...their costoletto starter followed by bistecco dijonnaise is to die for!

BTW they do magic tricks at your table too if you have kids......I taught them the balloon swallowing trick - my husband's a very happy man pmsl ;D
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 01, 2010, 08:12 PM
for TA i can't believe how much places charge and never really been impressed with the quality.

I couldn't agree more. Some people must have money to burn. When I look at takeaway menus shoved through the letterbox, I'm shocked at the prices, like a pizza charged at something like ?12 when it probably wouldn't cost much more than about 50p to make at home. They're mean with the quantities of ingredients, too, like half a mushroom, etc.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on November 01, 2010, 08:47 PM
If we go out to n Italian I have never eaten Pizza there, I usually go for the Seafood dishes & I haven't ordered a TA pizza for a long time, think it was from Pizza Express in the early 90's, I much prefer to make my own now,  I use Jamie Olivers pizza dough & tomato sauce then I usually get a pack of Italian meats from Asda along with mushrooms, but really you can do whatever you want. 
When I do make the trip to Morrisons I do like there Chicken Tikka Pizza but don't tell anyone ;)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: martinr1000 on November 01, 2010, 10:26 PM
martinr1000,

many thanks. was thinking i could do with joining a pizza forum.

ps have registered - looks good

it's a fascinating site. they have had dudes who worked at pizza hut etc. on there and although they all say that the dough is shipped in frozen the method they use to cook them is not what i expected.
for example a deep pan pizza is made by chucking a cup of oil into a pan then putting the dough on top and putting it in a prover to rise until it is ready to be cooked.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 01, 2010, 11:02 PM
they have had dudes who worked at pizza hut etc. on there and although they all say that...

The shame of it must be that we don't have any dudes on here who worked at BIRs.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on November 02, 2010, 07:40 PM
martinr1000,

loving the site. my knowledge is all based on trial and error. it's uncanny though reading some of the information as i can relate to it from direct experience. there is a lot of info though - thought BIR was complicated.

for anyone wanting a quick guide to propper pizza the pizza forum put me onto this site:

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)

on the deep pan we used to make all the time. we put 1 tbsp olive oil in the pan "tin", then dough and tomato and proved in hand warm bottom oven for 10mins before adding rest of ingredients and into the top oven for real. we switched to thin based a while ago as there is more flexibility on toppings before you get too full.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: martinr1000 on November 02, 2010, 09:15 PM
damn they look good.

wish i had a pizza oven and wasn't on a diet.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 02, 2010, 10:54 PM
for anyone wanting a quick guide to proper pizza the pizza forum put me onto this site:

http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)

OMG : I thought we were a bit obsessive, trying to re-create the authentic BIR flavour, but I never thought I'd ever read quite so much on pizza in just one place.  I started reading about 1H30 ago, and my scroll bar is still only about 1/5 of the way down.  It's a truly amazing document, and may well improve my bread-making technique as a side-effect !
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 03, 2010, 07:07 PM
we switched to thin based a while ago as there is more flexibility on toppings before you get too full.

Jerry do you have any tips for a thin base that is floppy when cooked. You know, one that doesn't stay like cardboard like most of the supermarket pizzas?

I know I should read around the subject but unlike curries I just don't have the same passsion for pizza and would appreciate a short cut to my desired type of base.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: commis on November 03, 2010, 07:28 PM
Hi
The bases used in supermarket pizza are par baked, so they keep there shape and hold the topping,so from scratch should give you the soft slice style.
Regards
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 03, 2010, 07:39 PM
Hi
The bases used in supermarket pizza are par baked, so they keep there shape and hold the topping,so from scratch should give you the soft slice style.
Regards

If you're saying that I should knock the dough up myself well that's exactly what I was asking for...instructions/tips for making a good dough to get a floppy base. I wouldn't touch the premade pizza bases.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 03, 2010, 09:11 PM
If you're saying that I should knock the dough up myself well that's exactly what I was asking for...instructions/tips for making a good dough to get a floppy base. I wouldn't touch the premade pizza bases.

SS, I would be absolutely staggered if JerryM's link (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)) did not contain not only everything you could possibly need to know, but probably a great deal more besides !

** Phil.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: martinr1000 on November 03, 2010, 10:15 PM
one of the thin and crispy or new york style recipes from here should suit

http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_recipes.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_recipes.html)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 03, 2010, 10:26 PM
if u ever need a rest from the curry then pizza makes a good alternative.

OMG Jerry - you've really opened a can of worms here, in terms of a whole new subject area that looks just as interesting, and rather better documented than our own BIR quest. I never knew there was so much involved with making pizza -  some of the web sites mentioned on this thread are amazing!
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 03, 2010, 11:30 PM
one of the thin and crispy or new york style recipes from here should suit

http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_recipes.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_recipes.html)


Here's a quote from one of those recipes:

"Tom Lehmann's New York Style Pizza Recipe
Tom "The Dough Doctor" Lehmann, Director of Bakery Assistance for the American Institute of Baking, has created this recipe in an effort to duplicate the "street pizza" found at the street corner pizzerias of New York City. With its puffy, chewy edge, and thin tapered middle, this style of pizza droops and must be folded to eat by hand. Rated: Excellent."

That looks like the one martinr1000. Cheers.  ;)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 03, 2010, 11:32 PM
SS, I would be absolutely staggered if JerryM's link (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)) did not contain not only everything you could possibly need to know

Yeah I was (and still am) being lazy. I can research curry for hours but pizza I just want to eat.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 03, 2010, 11:58 PM
Yeah I was (and still am) being lazy. I can research curry for hours but pizza I just want to eat.
In that case, I would strongly recommend avoiding the big pizza chains like the plague, finding yourself a nice little family-run Italian place that specialises in authentic Italian pizzas, and going there whenever the urge takes you !

** Phil.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: guitarmanguitar on November 04, 2010, 10:15 AM
500g Strong White Flour
1pkt Fast acting Yeast
2tbs Extra Virgin Olive Oil
tsp Salt
350ml water

Siv the flour, & yeast into a bowl.
Chuck the water, salt, & oil in, & begin to mix using your hands.
You may need to add a sprinkle more flour making it easier to work.

Once you have a good ball of workable dough.
Need it for 5 Min's, this helps to activate the yeast.

Now, line a glass bowl with olive oil, & drop in your dough.
Place a towel over the top, & put the bowl into a warm dark place for 1 hour.
It should have risen, & trebled in size.

Makes 4 good size Pizzas. Given to me by my Italian mate.

CArl...
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 04, 2010, 10:53 AM
Quote from: guitarmanguitar link=topic=3130.msg49834#msg49834
Need it for 5 Min's, this helps to activate the yeast.(sic)

I'm sure the primary purpose of kneading is to mix the water thoroughly with the flour. It's almost nothing to do with activating the yeast, i.e. until you let the dough rest for a period.

Like in your friend's recipe, I've normally used strong white bread flour but it's interesting how some of the specialist pizza-making web pages (USA) specifiy general purpose flour, which I assume is similar to our plain flour, i.e. not very strong.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on November 04, 2010, 02:42 PM
Secret Santa,

George has wrapped this up in his post - it's a bit like our BIR passion - i think perhaps even worse. many opinions, many variables.

i'm not expert in it for sure and have much to learn. these are my pizza key requirements:

1) hydration -use UB's naan idea of much water - water needs to be 65% of the flour by weight. the dough is very sticky and difficult to handle - with practise it becomes 2nd thought and easy
2) technique - don't use rolling pin - dough must be pushed out or pulled by hand to make the pizza - it must sort of step taper in cross section to compensate for the filling (thinner over the filling area than around the edge)
3) equipment - i use steel pizza pan or tins - i think they compensate for not having very high heat in a domestic oven. any metal sheet would do the job (i'm not keen on perforated).
4) oven characteristics - amount of filling (less is more), pizza dough thickness and cooking time are interrelated and very much dependent on the oven.  set oven at max temp. a bit of trial and error is then needed to get the balance right - starting off with less filling - would say even make garlic bread pizza intially (brush with butter/garlic) until you establish best thickness and bake time (nb this will increase when you progress to using fillings).

the spreadsheet should get you up the learning curve quite easily. from then on though you are likely to get hooked.

i currently have 5 off dough boxes and 1 off sauce box in the fridge.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on November 04, 2010, 05:04 PM
Hi

A heads up for anyone wanting one,
Just back from Morrisons and they are doing a Pizza stone for ?5.  Not sure of the exact size but looks about 12 inches.

Will
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 04, 2010, 07:41 PM
Jerry thanks for those tips they look like ones learnt through trial and error so they're bound to be useful.

I was about to make a pizza dough from the link martinr1000 posted earlier but I got to the bit where it said 'gently mix the dough for fifteen minutes' and thought damn it I'm not kneading dough for 15 minutes. So I'm about to buy a cheap hand mixer with rotating bowl attachment. I don't think it'll get used too often so it should do me well enough.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: martinr1000 on November 04, 2010, 10:17 PM
Hi SS, i'm with you all the way with regards to hand kneading dough. above all else i'm crap at it. I went through a process of trying to jury rig something to knead my dough.

i started with my trusty drill and one of those plasterers paddle mixers however the dough ripped the mixing attachment up like it was made out of paper.

after that i bit the bullet and got this

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4233251/Trail/searchtext%3EFOOD+MIXER.htm (http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4233251/Trail/searchtext%3EFOOD+MIXER.htm)

apparently it's a rebranded russel hobbes one (dunno if that means anything, not to me at least) in any case it certainly beat forking out two or three hundred quid for a kenwood or kitchenaid.

i use it to mix pizza and naan dough and it's always been bob on for me.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on November 05, 2010, 01:18 PM
but I got to the bit where it said 'gently mix the dough for fifteen minutes' and thought damn it I'm not kneading dough for 15 minutes

Secret Santa,

don't buy anything for mixing or needing. pizza does not need the same kneading as for bread - surprisingly little in fact.

i'm currently trying out this idea of "cold fermenting" ie put the "mixed" dough in the fridge. with this technique the kneading is actually done for you in the fridge. when i say "mixed" it's all done with a spoon in a bowl - if it's too hard it's done. that "Jeff Varasano" website spells it all out.

the secondary benefit from this approach is that the dough can be made days in advance and effectively stored until say 3 hrs before needed.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 05, 2010, 02:42 PM
after that i bit the bullet and got this

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4233251/Trail/searchtext%3EFOOD+MIXER.htm (http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4233251/Trail/searchtext%3EFOOD+MIXER.htm)

Blimey at ?65 quid that's twice what I was going to pay for one but then I am a skinflint.   ;D

I reckon I'll only use it once a week so I'm prepared to take my chances with a cheap one...it's a German make so it might last the course.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 05, 2010, 02:51 PM
Secret Santa,

don't buy anything for mixing or needing. pizza does not need the same kneading as for bread - surprisingly little in fact.

Hmmm, you've put me in two minds as to whether to get one or not now. I might just go for it anyway and do a side by side to see for myself what difference it makes.   ???

BTW jerry how did you go from spelling it "needing" first and then correctly "kneading" second?

It's ok I'm not doing a George on you (sorry George  ;) ) I just found it odd that they occured so close together.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 05, 2010, 02:52 PM
Blimey at
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 05, 2010, 02:52 PM
posted in error.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 05, 2010, 04:49 PM
Oddly enough, GBP 65-00 is exactly what I paid for my 2nd-hand Kenwood Major

That's a top rate, near-professional machine. I have one, too. It certainly should out-perform and out-last any new mixer costing ?65 bought today.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 05, 2010, 04:52 PM
That's a top rate, near-professional machine. I have one, too.
In that case, you may be able to advise me : KD recommends liquidising the onion/garlic/ginger/water mixture and the peeled plum tomatoes for two minutes : is this well within the Major's abilities, or is it safer to liquidise for (say) one minute, give things a chance to cool down, and then repeat the exercise ?

** Phil.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 05, 2010, 05:19 PM
That's a top rate, near-professional machine. I have one, too.
In that case, you may be able to advise me : KD recommends liquidising the onion/garlic/ginger/water mixture and the peeled plum tomatoes for two minutes : is this well within the Major's abilities, or is it safer to liquidise for (say) one minute, give things a chance to cool down, and then repeat the exercise ?

Those machines are built like tanks and should last 25-50 years apart from just one aspect which may need attention after, say 10-15 years, and that's the electronics which control the speed from slow to fast. On a slow speed, there can be more of a load/demand on the electronics than on a high speed. If you smell any burning, let alone see smoke on the lowest speed, let me know and I'll tell you more! Which model number is yours, exactly?

The good news is that for liquidising using the top jug (not the main bowl) you normally use the highest speed. Be sure you do. All being well, you could leave it on for many minutes without a problem. For blending, it will knock any hand held blender into a cocked hat. I might give it a break after 10 minutes but probably not less, unless it specifically states a time limit in the instruction book. Do you have one? I do, but I'll need to find it.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on November 05, 2010, 05:39 PM
In
Those machines are built like tanks and should last 25-50 years apart from just one aspect which may need attention after, say 10-15 years, and that's the electronics which control the speed from slow to fast. On a slow speed, there can be more of a load/demand on the electronics than on a high speed. If you smell any burning, let alone see smoke on the lowest speed, let me know and I'll tell you more! Which model number is yours, exactly?
An interesting question : as there is no baseplate, I am not sure where to look.  But cross-referencing the only numbers I can find (MCD3 19328) suggests it is an A 707 A.

The good news is that for liquidising using the top jug (not the main bowl) you normally use the highest speed. Be sure you do.
Ah.  I typically run it at 6 for liquidising, since any higher number does not increase the speed.  And of course for pastry I run it at 1  :(
 
All being well, you could leave it on for many minutes without a problem. For blending, it will knock any hand held blender into a cocked hat. I might give it a break after 10 minutes but probably not less, unless it specifically states a time limit in the instruction book. Do you have one? I do, but I'll need to find it.
I thought I did, but I cannot find it -- it does not appear to be anywhere on the cookery bookshelves, and I cannot think where else it might be ...

Found it  :)  All it needed was to change my glasses from +1.25 dioptre to +2.0 dioptre and it virtually leapt out at me ...

And in fact, the instructions say : "MOST IMPORTANT : When running the liquidiser the maximum time per run must not exceed three minutes with an interval of one minute between runs, otherwise the goblet and drive coupling may be damaged."

So my caution was, in fact, not ill-advised !

** Phil.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on November 05, 2010, 06:04 PM
And in fact, the instructions say : "MOST IMPORTANT : When running the liquidiser the maximum time per run must not exceed three minutes with an interval of one minute between runs, otherwise the goblet and drive coupling may be damaged."

Thanks for that. My optimism for 10 minutes was not justified! If the speed will not increase beyond 6, it may not be reaching the lowest speeds. It sounds like it may have been worked on before, and the person did not re-calibrate the speed mechanism correctly, or set it higher deliberately to avoid the electronics smoking at lower speeds.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Secret Santa on November 05, 2010, 08:51 PM
If the speed will not increase beyond 6, it may not be reaching the lowest speeds.

Can't be a professional machine if it don't go to 11!   ;)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Unclebuck on January 12, 2013, 09:24 PM
This is jerrym's pizza document:

   Pizza Dough Recipe               
Equipment                  
                     
Pizza pan/tin (14" dia with 2" rim - ideally 2 off or better still 3 off inc 12" for starter)
Circular cutter                  
Cake slice                     
Rolling pin                     
Plastic cake making bowl                  
                     
Quantities      Nb - weigh flour and water      
No persons   Flour (oz)   Water (oz)   Milk Powder. (tbsp.)   Sugar (tsp.)   Salt (tsp.)   Yeast (tsp.)   Oil (tbsp.)
1   6.4   3.8   1   0.4   0.17   1   1
3   19.2   11.4   3   1.2   0.50   2   3
4   25.6   15.2   4   1.6   0.67   3   4
5   32   19.0   5   2.0   0.83   4   5
                     
Dough      Nb - follow yeast packet instructions   
1   Put dry ingredients in bowl (flour, milk powder, sugar, salt, yeast)
2   Add water & oil to bowl and stir with spoon until liquid is mixed in
3   Use hands then to get the dough into a ball adding more flour if needed
4   Either knead in bowl or use flat surface (about 10mins) - dough must be damp but not sticky
5   Leave in warm until double in size (ie put in oven and switch on/off now again to keep at warm temp ~20C) typ 1 hr
6   Remove dough and weigh into pieces (6 oz thin base Napoli, 12 oz thick base American)
7   Roll out to rough size of pizza (turn 90 deg and turnover after each rolling). sprinkle with flour to stop sticking
8   Put 1 tbsp. olive oil into pizza pan and spread over pan base (thick base only)
9   Hold dough sheet underneath with clenched fists and move the fists around the edge to stretch the sheet
10   Place in pizza pan                
                     
Tomato Paste                  
1   Add 1 tsp. sugar and 3 heaped tbsp. of tom puree per tin of toms
2   Use tinned chopped toms pro rata based on 1.5 tins for 5 person (2 tins if making herb tom paste)
3   Use potato masher to remove lumps         
                     
Herb Tomato Paste   Nb - use as a starter ie no cheese   
1   6 heaped dsp tomato paste (for 1 pizza)      
2   add either 2 tsp rosemary or 1 tsp oregano & 1 tsp marjoram
                     
Garlic      Essential Ingredient         
1   chop as much as u want (upto 2 whole bulbs)      
2   add 1 tbsp olive oil and same of butter         
3   microwave for 2 mins stirring after 1 min and 2 min   
                     
Bolognaise                   
1   Chop 1 green pepper                
2   Microwave fat off  8 oz mince in water (5mins & drain)   
3   Put chopped pepper, mince in pan          
4   add brown sauce HP (large splodge), 1tsp black pepper (30 turns pepper mill), good glug of lea & perrins 10 secs
5   simmer with lid 20/30 mins.            
6   Take lid off and simmer till dry (just catching bottom of pan) typ 20 mins
                     
Other toppings                  
a)    Pepperoni with red pepper or sliced onion      
b)   Pre fried chicken "tikka" dry rub using rajah tandoori masala
c)   Ham and sweetcorn (defrost from frozen before using)   
                     
Final Make                  
1   Spread out tom paste (typ 3 heaped dsp per cheese pizza)
2   cover with grated mozzarella (typ 100 to 125 gm)   
3   sprinkle over garlic               
4   add toppings                   
5   For thick base leave to rise/prove in warm place for 10 mins (ideally below or above the cooking oven)
6   Cook 210C, thin typ 9mins (range 7 to 12 mins depending upon amount of topping), thick 15 mins (range 12 to 20)
7   Serve when the cutter is crisp when cutting the base and topping has melted
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 14, 2013, 06:47 PM
UB,

quite surprising how far we've traveled particularly on the dough and cooking method.

the site won't allow me to upload my current spreadsheet but i can email or try and detail if anyone has interest.

in short i cook at the highest possible temp on stone "quarry tiles" using high hydration cold fermented dough with a touch of sourdough.

going forward it's the toppings that i need to expand on.

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on January 14, 2013, 08:46 PM
Hi jerry. Where you you get your sourdough culture from and how do you keep it going?
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 15, 2013, 06:26 PM
natterjak,

the sourdough was the hardest and easiest thing i've done in pizza.

for a long time i just could not get a taste in pizza that i've experienced in restaurants - i now know it is down to sourdough. i currently add 5% but want to get to 10% where i feel the flavour is about right (% of the flour wt and adjust the water down as the sourdough is 50:50 water:flour).

i'd always been put off sourdough by it's name and the thought of needing much care and chucking a good bit away all the time. none are actually so. it's not even sour.

i used the serious eats method "Donna Currie" of making my own (http://slice.seriouseats.com/sourdough/ (http://slice.seriouseats.com/sourdough/)). i did use rye flour intially to get it going. i now use bread flour. i tend to feed it 1 tbsp of flour and 1 tbsp of water every now and then increasing or decreasing the timings to get the volume i need for when i next make pizza. i also give it a stir now and then keeping it in an open jar in the fridge. i end up using about 75% so find i never throw any away.

it's something you really can't go wrong with - i've been amazed how well it's worked in terms of feeding and harvesting.

i know that you can buy cultures or starters. i've never bothered. yes they probably give that perfect result but the make it yourself gets you 90% there.

pizzamaking.com is the key site for info and where i've learnt most. say if you need anymore info/pointers.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on January 15, 2013, 06:31 PM
Thanks jerry, top info. I will look into this further
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 15, 2013, 06:54 PM
revised tom sauce recipe:

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/0fd00e89c152a3599d5fe8f9c3d555e1.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#0fd00e89c152a3599d5fe8f9c3d555e1.JPG)

dough - minesamojito's recipe is a good starting point (uses the sponge technique), 65% hydration, 1% Yeast ADY. Salt may be reduced to 5g depends on preference.

day 1
In a bowl add

250g Strong white bread flour
325g Lukewarm water
5g Fast Action Yeast

Mix with a wooden spoon and leave covered overnight.

day 2
The next morning add

250g Strong white bread flour, or replace with an equal quantity of alternative (wholemeal/barleycorn/5seed)
10g Fine Sea Salt

Mix until it comes together and knead for 10 mins (5 mins enough) on a worktop until silky and soft

Oil the bowl lightly with olive/rapeseed oil put the dough in and let rise until doubled (approx. 1 hour)



http://woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=6953&mforum=woodovenukforum#6953 (http://woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=6953&mforum=woodovenukforum#6953)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: tonybatty on January 16, 2013, 04:22 PM
I built an outdoor wood fired oven 4 years back and use the Jeff Varasano method referred to earlier in this thread. using 20% sourdough starter and no other yeast with the dough being 'aged' in the fridge for 2-5 days depending on how much notice I need.  It produces a great tasting pizza.

It took me couple of attempts to get the starter going mainly because I was too impatient the first time.  I keep a jar in the fridge and rejuvenate it every few weeks or so depending on season.

One of the keys I've found with pizza making is that 'less is more' when it comes to the toppings.

TonyB
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Unclebuck on January 16, 2013, 05:28 PM
I built an outdoor wood fired oven 4 years back and use the Jeff Varasano method referred to earlier in this thread. using 20% sourdough starter and no other yeast with the dough being 'aged' in the fridge for 2-5 days depending on how much notice I need.  It produces a great tasting pizza.

It took me couple of attempts to get the starter going mainly because I was too impatient the first time.  I keep a jar in the fridge and rejuvenate it every few weeks or so depending on season.

One of the keys I've found with pizza making is that 'less is more' when it comes to the toppings.

TonyB

Show us your oven tonyb most interesting
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on January 16, 2013, 08:46 PM

i used the serious eats method "Donna Currie" of making my own (http://slice.seriouseats.com/sourdough/ (http://slice.seriouseats.com/sourdough/)). i did use rye flour intially to get it going. i now use bread flour.

Thanks for this link Jerry. I'm having a crack at it, currently on day 1 with half an ounce of flour and one ounce of water sitting at the bottom of a pint pot thinking about life.  Hopefully by next weekend I will have thriving sourdough starter and can try a loaf first of all, then move onto a pizza.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 18, 2013, 09:35 AM
Is there any pre-made sauce you guys can recommend?

I'm going to be concentrating on the dough part first and just want something pretty decent to put on for the time being. I wateched this video by a pizzamaking.com user
 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13454.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13454.0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_OZlp-6IBk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_OZlp-6IBk)

his dough from scratch vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGrkup9ZKwU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGrkup9ZKwU)

he uses a jar of mia cucina marinara sauce. Wonder if we have something similar. Seems tesco do some marinara stuff?

Real eyeopener the pizzamaking site, so many parallels with british curry
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 18, 2013, 03:42 PM
TonyB,

the jeff varasano site was the real breakthrough for me too - i aim to stick to his guiding principles.

the long cold ferment (~3day) i used until i started reading up on Mozza Restaurant and Nancy Silverton (via pizzaquest). this uses an even higher hydration ~78% which i've not got to work as it over ferments too quickly and sticks on the peel. i got round it by reducing the cold ferment to 1 day in bulk and 1 day in boxes whilst reducing the hydration to 70% and the ADY down from 0.2% to 0.12%.

your idea of leaving out the ADY is something i've not tried and could well work for me.

ps the 70% hydration only just about works in my domestic oven and hope to try it out in my wfo this coming year.

best wishes,

natterjak,

couple of pictures (450g jam jar)

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/20188f42021e2e96575f7c67114f6274.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#20188f42021e2e96575f7c67114f6274.jpg)

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/2e0a28bc3e5531753274090abfc85d02.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#2e0a28bc3e5531753274090abfc85d02.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: tonybatty on January 19, 2013, 11:28 AM
Uncle Buck,
here's the blog of the build I did with lots of photos of the construction. As you'll see, from the lack of recent entries I'm not much of a blogger :)
www.batty.me.uk (http://www.batty.me.uk)

Jerry,
try it with sour dough starter only, there's certainly enough rise without commercial yeast, and the flavour is fantastic. as I say to all my guests, 'best pizza this side of Rome' and they have to agree otherwise they don't get invited back ;D

Shame about the recent crappy summer weather which meant I only fired the oven up half a dozen times last year.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Malc. on January 19, 2013, 12:09 PM
here's the blog of the build I did with lots of photos of the construction.


Looks fantastic as did the pizza! :)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 20, 2013, 10:46 AM
tonybatty,

i guess you know of the uk wfo site (http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com (http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com)).

me too hoping for better weather this year. my wfo although pretty good remain work in progress.

will certainly try dropping the commercial yeast - increasing the hydration speeds up the ferment but you don't want to reduce the sourdough down to taste - hence have solved a problem for me - many thanks for the idea.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: tonybatty on January 21, 2013, 09:37 AM
Yes Jerry, I'm a mod on that forum which I'd recommend as a good friendly place for anyone interested in building a wfo, thought it does tend to be a bit quiet on there at this time of year.

There's a lot of interest in building/owning a wfo and lots more UK resources available now than when I built mine a few years ago.  At that time I had a struggle to source firebricks which are now almost exclusively imported from China/India, quite amazing given our heavy engineering tradition.  Most of the people I contacted for supplies thought I was a little crazy, well maybe they weren't wrong ;)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 21, 2013, 02:35 PM
Here's my first effort.

(http://uppix.net/7/d/3/c55a66f1f8a8ad46cf981316df966.jpg)

Tasted quite good but not as good as I'd hoped.

First it was quite soft soggy from what I wanted, no real browning underneath. Didn't seem to get enough rise out of the dough. All I could find was tesco's own mozzarella, it didn't come out white melting and stringy or tasty enough except the odd small area, its was disappointingly very much like every TA I've had in a decade or more where its more clumpy, yellowish, okay nice to an extent but average in my opinion and very similar to how the pizzahut round here is.

Couldn't find a pizza stone, went to tesco, asda, morrisons, wilkinsons, could only get these thin pizza plates, no pizza screens either. I guess they don't sell well or take up too much room too heavy. I'll have to order online or try sainsbury's, or find some catering place. Quarry tiles are far too small from what I could see.

Supermarket pizzas take 10-12mins, sometimes 15mins gas mark 6 in my oven. My first one took 20mins and wasn't cooked enough despite preheating for 30mins on the highest setting , I had to take it out as I didn't want more browning of the cheese and develop some thin layer.

I'll try a pizza stone or try to source one of those pizza pans the takeaway often use, more preheating. On my oven there's a six inch gap/vent on the door which I don't think helps.

Anyway, not bad, not great, kind of rivaled typical tesco, asda, pizzahut. In recent months I've been going to Aldi and their stonebaked pizza is much better than all the other supermarkets and is only half the price at around ?1.79 every day, not on these cheap one week then jump up to ?3.50 the next week ie tesco. Aldi pizza for the price makes me think twice about going to the trouble.

Hope I can find a place for lots of decent mozzarella at reasonable prices. Doing it yourself doesn't seem quite as cheap if you have to pre-heat the oven for an hour on full and ?1.50 for a bag of cheese to cover a 12" pizza along with the rest.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on January 21, 2013, 03:23 PM
Hi Harley

Photo looks good, shame it wasn't quite what you hoped for.  Was the cheese the kind which comes pre-grated in a bag? Not sure I would trust that kind of cheese. Better to buy a buffalo mozarella which comes in it's own bag of liquid and cut it into squares yourself.

For cooking the underside I haven't tried it yet but I'm thinking of one of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Re-usable-Pizza-mesh-Gives-round-crispness/dp/B002DFF6AY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_kh_2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Re-usable-Pizza-mesh-Gives-round-crispness/dp/B002DFF6AY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_kh_2)

It's a teflon lined mesh which lets the oven heat get directly to the underside of the pizza. I can't see why that wouldn't work and amazon reviews are very positive.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Unclebuck on January 21, 2013, 03:24 PM
Uncle Buck,
here's the blog of the build I did with lots of photos of the construction. As you'll see, from the lack of recent entries I'm not much of a blogger :)
www.batty.me.uk (http://www.batty.me.uk)

Jerry,
try it with sour dough starter only, there's certainly enough rise without commercial yeast, and the flavour is fantastic. as I say to all my guests, 'best pizza this side of Rome' and they have to agree otherwise they don't get invited back ;D

Shame about the recent crappy summer weather which meant I only fired the oven up half a dozen times last year.
looks good tonybatty well done, I haven't been on http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com (http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com) for a while I must pop in
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on January 21, 2013, 03:24 PM
Regarding cheese: I've found a mix of 1/3 parmesan (coarsely grated) and 2/3 young Gouda cheese (also coarsely grated) makes for a fantastic (and cheesy) combo. Most italians here use a mix of Parmesan (or Pecorino) with Mozzarella and/or Gouda.

The Mozzarella makes it nice and gooey while the Gouda (and/or Parmesan) gives it a nice cheesy taste. I find most Mozzarella to be bland, even the expensive stuff.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 21, 2013, 04:55 PM
Hi natterjak

Might give that a whirl, thanks. Similar to those pizza screens I've seen recommended. My plate has some holes in but maybe not enough. I think I need to pre heat much longer more than anything.

EDIT: Just ordered that mesh. Should help with condensation

Yes the cheese was pre-grated bag, all I could find at the time unfortunately. I'll search harder for the buffalo mozz when the snow clears a bit.

Will check those other cheeses out StoneCut.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: tonybatty on January 21, 2013, 06:08 PM
You need to be a little careful with using buffalo mozzarella, nice taste but you need to squeeze out as much moisture as you can otherwise it just makes it soggy.  Ironically the cheaper, drier mozzarella often works better.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 21, 2013, 06:40 PM
Quarry tiles are far too small from what I could see.

reclamation yards have the tiles - they are 1 inch thick and 6 inch square - i use 4 off in my domestic oven. i think the modern equivalent would work too but are thinner. not used myself but would expect the stone to give reasonable performance - the thicker the better (it acts as a heat store).

can post a pic of my setup if you need.

quarry tiles/stone are no good unless the oven temp is high ~ 550C. getting to this temp (typ 1 hr oven pre heat) is not easy in a domestic oven and potentially could damage it. you may be stuck unless the vent can be temp blocked. for example on the difficulty i had to locate the thermocouple and covered it to enable the oven to run at the higher temp.

tonyB,

very best wishes.

i picked up on your initial comment on the West Bromwich location for fire bricks as this is my No 1 task in the coming wfo season. i tried to purchase from Higgs Refractories in the Midland over the new year being foiled by seasonal shutdown.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 22, 2013, 03:05 AM
reclamation yards have the tiles - they are 1 inch thick and 6 inch square - i use 4 off in my domestic oven. i think the modern equivalent would work too but are thinner. not used myself but would expect the stone to give reasonable performance - the thicker the better (it acts as a heat store).

can post a pic of my setup if you need.

quarry tiles/stone are no good unless the oven temp is high ~ 550C. getting to this temp (typ 1 hr oven pre heat) is not easy in a domestic oven and potentially could damage it. you may be stuck unless the vent can be temp blocked. for example on the difficulty i had to locate the thermocouple and covered it to enable the oven to run at the higher temp.

I was thinking one large tile would be better when moving the pizza but yes it should work fine. I guess you could even fix the tiles together to stop them sliding if needed.

Really need to see if I can get my oven up to temp, no access to a heat gun. The vent is on the front door seal and should be blocked quite easy. The thermocouple is hanging down from the oven ceiling.

Should be on the right path if I can half the cooking time. How long does yours take in your domestic oven JerryM? Should I be looking at 7-10mins tops?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: tonybatty on January 22, 2013, 03:56 PM
Jerry, the company I used was W Midlands Refractories who were subsequently rolled into Yorkshire Refractories who were rolled into Sapling Associates ::) For comparison, you should also have a look at www.kilnlinings.co.uk (http://www.kilnlinings.co.uk) who have supplied a number of members on the forum and I believe offers members a discount.

There's quite a range of firebricks not all of which are right for the classic wfo so make sure you do your research before buying.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 22, 2013, 05:48 PM
harley,

i'll dig out and post some more info. pizza is even harder than curry to master but probably more fun.

the tiles don't move - i thought they would. you need to master the peel too.

the bake in my oven after the 1 hr pre heat is 3 to 3.5 mins. this is at 63 to 65% hydration. since trying out the 70% hydration the bake has increased to 4.5 to 5 mins. it all depend on the thickness too and the amount of toppings.

i use a cheap dial thermometer that goes up to 300C - it's good enough.

tonyB,

many thanks - will make this my starting point - the range issue is why i wanted to see before buy so to speak.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Micky Tikka on January 22, 2013, 08:24 PM
Just to let you know fellows this thread has given me the urge
To build my own Wfo
 Over the last week or so Ive been thinking a lot about it plus I done some baking bread over Christmas with a little success . I must add they actually tasted like bread and did not come out like bricks :)
Anyway I PM'd   tb and he kindly gave me some good advise and If I needed anymore help I should try
Thewoodfiredoven forum  which seems a good friendly forum not as fiesty has ours but I did see they had 2 new members  steviejet66 and Mr big  ;D
No seriously what I'm saying is I'll keep you posted with pictures of my build

ps curry will always be my first love  :'(
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 23, 2013, 04:06 PM
Tried blocking the vent off on my oven mostly and covering the thermocouple with no success, still 20+ mins.

Determined to fix it I bought an oven thermometer just to see what's happening. At stock the oven is getting to 350-375f. I then tried moving the thermocouple outside of the door through the vent which came in handy. Now I'm getting 525f without blocking the vent so very pleased with that.:)

Still to test a pizza with my modified oven. My second pizza, prior to the mod, I noticed two thirds of the pizza base under the cheese and tomato was just warmish, you would've thought it was left to stand for 10mins. Still, had some success with some proper mozz in the watery bag suggested by natterjack and also tried my own tomato sauce mixed with some dried methi/fenugreek leaves, very tasty. Can't wait to try this with my new oven temp. My new batch of dough will be ready tomorrow. Also got some parmesan and padano cheese to try.

Time to rustle up a Chicken Madras tonight.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on January 23, 2013, 04:19 PM
One thing to keep in mind: Don't use pre-shredded cheese. Never. It's covered in starch so the bits don't stick to each other which ruins the cheese, IMHO. I also found that it's better to shred the cheese coarsely and not finely (like you would Parmesan for Pasta, for example) because that seems to make the cheese burn easier.

On the other hand, I have a very hot oven (400+
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 23, 2013, 04:30 PM
That's a very hot oven StoneCut.

The bag variety I meant is the whole piece of mozz in a watery bag, not the standard grated stuff. I've edited my post above.

For the real buffalo mozz, seems I'd have to order it online or find a specialist shop.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 23, 2013, 05:41 PM
a few extra pointers on what i've learnt from www.pizzamaking.com (http://www.pizzamaking.com) and wfo site (www.woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk (http://www.woodovenukforum.forumup.co.uk) - old, http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com (http://ukwoodfiredovenforum.proboards.com) - new).

this my domestic oven setup. i have recently taken the middle cut tiles out ie i now just use 4 off quarry tiles. this has increased the clearance at the sides of the oven and improved my top heat - well pleased

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12351.msg119136.html#msg119136 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12351.msg119136.html#msg119136)

shaping & peel video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA)
balling video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN9fwlCEY2Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN9fwlCEY2Y) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfUONu_gnBk&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfUONu_gnBk&feature=player_embedded)

you ideally need a wood peel for putting the pizza in (i use a piece of hardboard as i had it to hand) and an aluminium peel for turning/taking out link http://www.nisbets.co.uk/Pizza-Peel/F037/ProductDetail.raction (http://www.nisbets.co.uk/Pizza-Peel/F037/ProductDetail.raction)

to help on the peel going in it's best to mix up a batch of normal bread flour and semolina (mine from sainsbury's). a good starting point for the mix is 50:50.

"toppings" are my next quest. cheese is 1st on the list. i've previously tried the wet mozzarella (used to dry it out in the fridge) and need to revisit. i also like the idea of adding in perhaps some of the fancy ones suggested in the above recent posts along with trying some better quality too. i currently used a mix of bagged grated cheese both cheddar and mozzarella (both from aldi).

ps well pleased there are takers on the wfo front. i've had real good fun and much still to learn. have included link to my wfo pics: http://s266.beta.photobucket.com/user/jerrym07/library/ (http://s266.beta.photobucket.com/user/jerrym07/library/)

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 23, 2013, 06:08 PM
Good videos there. I've watched countless videos over the past few days and read lots of threads. Tony Gemignani seems really good. I read Jeff varasano's site and he calls out pizza champions but I rate this Tony G guy. Seems to do everything the right according to his interviews and other vids.

I enjoyed watching this series. Perhaps you've seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dtiOxq73uM)

I'm using Allisons strong bread flour and ADY at the moment. Couldn't find any semolina at tesco. Wanted it to help with spreading out the dough and also combine it with the bread flour as Jamie Oliver suggests.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 24, 2013, 08:24 AM
before going into this pizza making I thought cast iron would be a good platform, cooking here we use iron or ally and i've worked on car engines and other metal related repairs in the past, ally would be too fast

doing some searching it seems to be the case and led me back to pizzamaking.com and heston's cast iron pan trick

edit
(http://uppix.net/a/7/f/06919075eb193d051b46f7f65d281.jpg)

don't have the final pizza pic, had a crowd gathering and it quickly went. Still don't have a stone or plate so it wasn't that crispy underneath although much better than before, cooking time was 5mins, can't remember exactly. getting to 525f wasn't very long, 20 odd mins

Got my mind set on a cast iron or steel plate or maybe some quarry stone if not and to also use the top oven and grill, pre heat the iron plate. unfortunately I can't use both the top oven and grill at the same time, would be ideal if I could, perhaps I can mod it.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 24, 2013, 07:18 PM
harley,

i had seen the video. i'll try and capture the steps i use now (collected as we all do from www).

the baking steel is something i've held back on despite seeing good results by others. will be interested on your thoughts if you do end up comparing. i'm pretty much 100% sure i'm sticking with stone (quarry tile or fire brick).

sounds as if your on the right track and well pleased.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on January 24, 2013, 07:34 PM
Plenty of buffalo mozzarella at Waitrose; I noticed their stock when I was in the Paddock Wood branch earlier today.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 26, 2013, 12:05 PM
i've taken a few pics of the steps i go through. i can extra clarification if needed. i still have a few pics to take later in the day.

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/Pizza%20Make/?albumview=slideshow (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/Pizza%20Make/?albumview=slideshow)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 28, 2013, 03:34 PM
(http://uppix.net/a/4/9/101724a8eb5c2848680b2054a7b23.jpg)

I've got the steel in place, 1/2 inch thick, was going to use cast iron but its harder to find anyone who cuts it.

Was my best pizza yet, very tasty, ate every bit of the crust. The dough wasn't floppy or soft/soggy, quite firm but didn't get the charring/darkening underneath as I would've hoped. Maybe have to try a different dough ratio, steel has definitely helped, also got a nice oven spring.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 28, 2013, 04:19 PM
harley,

the top heat appears a tad too much and suggest the hydration is not high enough - the minimum i use in my domestic oven is 63% (water as % of flour termed bakers percent).

pictures of pizza only go so far at describing pizza and yours defo looks good to eat to me.

the suggestion of top heat is quite a surprise given the use of steel i would have expected it the other way round ie the bottom cooked before the top and good omen for the steel.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on January 29, 2013, 02:21 PM
I had another shot at Pizza at the weekend and prepared some dough for yesterday. Previously I was using a dough to be consumed the same day. This time I used this german site as a guideline:
http://www.perfekte-pizza.de/perfekter-pizzateig/ (http://www.perfekte-pizza.de/perfekter-pizzateig/)

The method (and recipe) on that site is loosely based on Jeff Varasano's (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm)). It uses about 62.5& hydration and all-purpose flour (apparently german All-Purpose flour is very similar to Tipo 00).

The pizza turned out lovely with a nice crust but still very airy. No yeast flavour whatsoever. In fact, the whole place smelled like a proper Pizzeria when I came back from a little walk :)

However, I still have some questions for the Pizza "veterans":

My final dough was pretty sticky after taking it out of the fridge after 24 hours of resting. It would stretch really easily, but it was REALLY delicate (pick it up on one edge and it would streeeetch but never leave the table at the other end). Is that normal ?

Did I just not put enough flour on my dough balls when I packed them up or what ?

JerryM: Your picture "Ready to Shape" -> did you dust the dough ball with flour prior to taking that shot ?

Apart from that I like the method outlined on that page (make a thin "pancake dough", let it rest, then knead, then add remaining flour, rest, portion & then refrigerate). The results are excellent.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 29, 2013, 05:02 PM
have added better link to photo's - the description was not available in the previous link

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/Pizza%20Make/?albumview=slideshow (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii262/jerrym07/Pizza%20Make/?albumview=slideshow)

Stonecut,

the "ready to shape" pic is the dough box with lid on out of the fridge for 2 hrs then lid taken off and photo taken ie no flour added only at balling stage. the revised link should help - say if need more explanation.

a guy (Scott123) moved my blinkers thankfully on "over fermented" dough. from jeff varasano in an effort to get more taste i ended up over fermenting dough without realising what over fermented is. it sounds just like what you had. the difference between it and what i call proper dough is that proper dough doesn't really pour out of the dough box - it's sort of plump. over fermented has hardly any springback if at all. you also tend to have problems not only transferring to the peel but on launching it down the peel - sticks.

the way i've attempted to prevent over ferment is to reduce the yeast - down to ~ 0.2%. the flavour that i was after i now realise is more easily achieved through sourdough.

i also think that the wetter the dough the faster it ferments and consequently needs less yeast.

plain flour has less protein and is more prone to over fermenting. i started out using plain flour then sort of moved to 50:50 with bread and now use 100% bread flour.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on January 29, 2013, 08:07 PM
Jerry, forgot to mention I did a 1min blast on the grill, ie the steel plate broiler method. I do like the top of the pizza well done with pepperoni edges burnt a little. I need to get some smaller pepperoni slices, the ones from tesco I have now I rip in half because they're so large. I seen some good smaller ones in Asda.

Your pizza looks good to me though needs a little more browning on top. Underneath looks great and nice looking pizza overall.

My new dough mix is done in the Lehmann calculator. Will be ready tomorrow
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (167.5%):
Single Ball:
673.96 g  |  23.77 oz | 1.49 lbs
424.6 g  |  14.98 oz | 0.94 lbs
5.05 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
11.79 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
1128.89 g | 39.82 oz | 2.49 lbs | TF = 0.1
376.3 g | 13.27 oz | 0.83 lbs

My previous doughs from were done by using by peoples recipes done in teaspoons, measuring water, and bit of guess work, with no hydration info.

Hopefully my new mix will address the lack of browning underneath and also my previous doughs always sprung back and quite difficult to stretch.

I started out with allisons strong bread flour, protein 12.1%. I noticed this time they had very strong bread flour 13.9% protein so I grabbed that and used it today. Maybe more protein will make it stronger, less springy. They recommend 13/14%.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on January 30, 2013, 09:53 AM
JerryM: Many thanks for the updated descriptions on the pics and your feedback!

I don't really think I overfermented the dough - I think I simply had too small containers so the dough started to "sweat". I had some dough left over yesterday which I had stashed in a bigger box. And while it stuck to the box quite a bit the dough, it was a pleasure to work with. Again, it produced an excellent tasting pizza (see pics attached).

I use a 1/4 cube of fresh yeast per 1kg of flour for my recipe, I think that's about 10g of yeast per 1000g of flour (or 1%). I might need to experiment with using even less yeast after reading your post, though.

All-Purpose flour is classed differently in Germany. Our flour is categorized by mineral content and not protein as in Italy. An all-purpose flour ("405") has roughly the same mineral content as Tipo 00. Also the protein content is set at 11%, which resembles "tipo 0" ("tipo 00" has only 9% protein content). That's a pretty close match for a really cheap flour. It's really no wonder that you'll see Italians buy big bags of "405" All-Purpose Flour for their Pizzerias here. It's only about 1/3 of the cost ...

See some pics from yesterday's Pizza run (before you complain: I don't like my Pizza very dark when made in a conventional oven as opposed to a wood oven).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on January 30, 2013, 03:56 PM
Just for laughs: I stumbled over an EU regulation note for "Pizza Napoletana". It actually includes a recipes, too:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:040:0017:0025:EN:PDF (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:040:0017:0025:EN:PDF)

Regulation madness ;)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Naga on January 30, 2013, 04:31 PM
...Regulation madness ;)

I'm astounded! Job creation at it's most ingenious!  :(
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on January 30, 2013, 06:08 PM
harley,

you're right - i love a tad more top heat. on my wfo it's the otherway round too.

recipe looks spot on. i've recently switched from brown sugar to honey - might be worth a try.

i use the aldi spanish chorizo with sliced banana - well worth a go. the asda peperoni is good.

stonecut,

the dough pretty much always sticks to the dough box for me too. bigger boxes do seem better for me too.

the air bubbles do look good indicating the flour is good - quite a surprise there is such a difference in something with the same description - our all purpose is defo very low on the bread scale. it does produce a much softer pizza though and the mix of bread flour and all purpose a sort of compromise.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on February 02, 2013, 01:11 PM
(http://uppix.net/1/8/f/11f44c0946cbf400639a070c10ce6.jpg)
(http://uppix.net/f/4/4/f83d2a7498ebdf95eed8ec02f3740.jpg)
(http://uppix.net/5/c/1/29446dfcaa6485b9d0e338980a6fb.jpg)

Had a real turning point today.

My previous attempt with my new dough yielded a slight browning underneath, like a fine tuning of the dough but still a long bake and only slightly improved, not looking to great for the steal I thought. I moved my steel near the top of the lower oven without the grill at 490f in hope of some increased heat but not expecting much and boom the pizza just explodes into life. After just a few minutes the bottom is nicely charred with the dough soft airy on the inside. The oven spring was incredible and I was scrambling to move the pizza under the grill it all happened so fast.

Don't know how long it took exactly. Easily my best tasting yet. I was starting to think these quick bakes at home were an exaggeration.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Malc. on February 02, 2013, 02:43 PM
That looks fantastic Harley!

Has anyone tried to recreate the dough you find at Pizza Express?
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on February 03, 2013, 08:10 PM
I was starting to think these quick bakes at home were an exaggeration.

Rome wasn't built in day. well pleased.

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on February 18, 2013, 04:31 PM
I have some questions for others and also some suggestions.

1. Pizza oven
My oven is not hot enough after all. I've been researching alternatives to a Wood oven (no room for that) and it appears that these "Pizza Makers" from Brands such as "G3 Ferrari" (Pizza Express Napoli) and "Bestron" (Alfredo) are actually pretty good. Unfortunately, however, these devices don't get as hot as they used to anymore (EU regulation "A-12" or something like that which regulates max. outside temp for ovens). An "old" Bestron Alfredo DLD 9016 (not 9017) Pizzamaker could go up to 450
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on February 19, 2013, 05:32 PM
StoneCut,

a lot in your last post.

i think poolish is what i know as sponge. a starter of flour, water and yeast. if so then the earlier recipe i posted of minesamojito uses this method. it gets very active. on one occasion spilled out into my fridge. he leaves the sponge out at room temp for 1 day.

following earlier tonybatty suggestion i've dropped using yeast and rely only on the sourdough. i'm currently at 15% but aiming for 20%. i was only using a very small amount of yeast but have seen no disadvantage. the sourdough does work slower and suits my preference for cold ferment. i was concerned that the rise may be affected but is not the case.

what to do about an oven is quite difficult for me. i don't have deep pockets. i'm still working on my wfo as they are not as good as i want. the 2 things they offer are oven spring and smokey flavour. the downside being opportunity to use and long warm up.

the key thing i've realised is that much is achieved by getting the dough right. this needs to be priority no 1.

as for what equipment for inside then i've looked at getting lincat ~PO49X off ebay (recommended by pizzaman on this site). this is what i've seen in restaurants. i've also thought of buying scrap domestic oven for mod. it's the ability to separately control top and bottom heat that i want.

for outside use in place of wfo i've also seen much on the LBE. this is what i would probably go for. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/06/pizza-lab-in-which-we-get-the-kettlepizza-insert-working-and-meet-its-maker.html?ref=search. (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/06/pizza-lab-in-which-we-get-the-kettlepizza-insert-working-and-meet-its-maker.html?ref=search.)

will have look through your links and add if i can.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: mr.mojorisin on February 19, 2013, 07:48 PM
here's some pics on an earlier thread of my stuffed crust pizza

home made base, home made base sauce :)

lovelyjubbly. this reminds me that I aint made a pizza for eons...maybe this weekend in place of my usual ruby murray

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,7632.msg66251.html#msg66251 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,7632.msg66251.html#msg66251)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on February 19, 2013, 09:04 PM
Well, having been making homemade hand baked bread for the last month or so, i decide it was time to have another go at good old pizza inspired by you gents. The difference this time though as opposed to previous years attempts, i now know the importance of kneading, proving, yeast and oven temp etc.

So i decided to make a thin and crispy hot n spicy pepperoni pizza tonight with the "less is more" attitude.
The dough was made from a new bread book recently purchased and was tossed through the air to stretch it after a lesson from you tube. Suprisingly with good results for a 1 st time.
I then topped it with a homemade pizza sauce along with mozzarella, pepperoni, chilli, seasonings, pecorino and some chilli oil.

Fortunately my Neff top oven appears to go to about 270* / 280* C so i knew i had half a chance of a decent result.
The only confronting issue was getting it off a cardboard "peeler" onto the pizza stone. (New purchase for that coming up, was difficult!)

The resultant pizza was in the oven for about only 4 mins or so and turned out brilliantly, am well impressed.

Pics below

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/fe179f1ea067db018832f5f8f1103e8d.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/fe179f1ea067db018832f5f8f1103e8d.jpg)

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/a2d0c34659b0a95f249d86066c1a0022.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/a2d0c34659b0a95f249d86066c1a0022.jpg)

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4c4ebd94daec44a92bf554d03c8f4380.jpg (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/4c4ebd94daec44a92bf554d03c8f4380.jpg)

Thanks for the inspiration guys

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on February 19, 2013, 11:06 PM
Good effort Whandsy

For me, 500f or 270c is like a threshold, anything around 450f ish just doesn't cut it.

i'm in the same boat with the peel, trying to find a 14" one but the price puts me off so I've decided to make one.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on February 20, 2013, 09:32 AM
Crust looks great, Whandsy !
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on February 20, 2013, 11:26 AM
Looks really good Whandsy.  I had a Neff oven in the UK and rated it very highly!
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on February 20, 2013, 11:29 AM
Cheers for the comments guys

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on February 21, 2013, 07:21 PM
mr.mojorisin,

i think of your pics whenever i hear stuffed crust - they look brill.

given i thinking of trying a deep pan - i guess the stuffed crust would work well.

what dough weight do you use and what dia pan.

Whandsy,

well pleased - real impressive stuff. i agree too 500F is pretty good and good enough. and 4 min bake is good enough too. i'm currently running at 5 mins and best i get is about 3.5 mins in my kitchen oven.

StoneCut,

the temp prompted me on what would be ideal. i have no proof or experience but 660F would be my target to upgrade to from kitchen oven at say 550F. Not a huge increase but near on impossible without either money or some handy work.

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on February 25, 2013, 09:23 AM
Hey everyone,

this past weekend I made some Pizza with the Oregon Trail sourdough starter from www.carlsfriends.net (http://www.carlsfriends.net).

Here's the recipe I used (made with this calculator http://pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html)):

297.14 g Flour
172.14 g Water
10.71 g Salt (3%)
120 g Preferment (20%)

Total: 600 g of dough

This breaks down to exactly 65% hydration with 3 doughballs
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on February 25, 2013, 06:46 PM
StoneCut,

i've had the same - it's quite an eye opener. they will soon get used to the new standard. it gets worse as when you have a few hic cups they will soon let you know too.

i would give the bread flour a try. in the UK it is quite different to plain flour. i've tried a 50:50 mix and also 100% plain in the past. it really does depend on your own preference and of course the beauty of making your own.

i'd also try at some point going up to 70% hydration - for me this has produce for the 1st time that large open bubble structure in the cooked dough. a small amount of rye flour ~5% is also well worth a try.

everything else in your post shows you've mastered it.

ps tried the seriouseats fool proofproof deep pan with mixed results.  it's quite a few years since i last made deep pan - i really gelled with the very quick and easy method making a midweek feast a possibility. i think the cold weather and too small dough batch (for my pans) the key problems. the less is more ethos doe not apply and need to use more tom sauce on next go. also need to get that mozzarella into the crust
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on February 26, 2013, 08:33 AM
Well, the problem is there is no such thing labelled as a "bread flour" available over here. Our flour gets categorized by mineral content (All-purpose is "Type 405", which means it has 4.05 grams of minerals per 100g of flour, for example). A more robust dark flour might be "Type 1600". However, it seems that "Type 956" is often being used for bread rolls, so I might give that a try at some point. Any flour that mentions "bread" on the package over here is not really a flour but actually a pre-mix of different flours ("breadmaking mix").

Increasing the hydration even further seems like an interesting experiment, even though the dough will probably hard to handle. But boy, wasw my previous pizza dough always dry. No wonder it was crap :) Adding some rye flour sounds worth investigating since my wife loves rye bread. Thanks for the ideas.

I've had mixed results with seriouseats' recipes in the past, too. I tend to stick to the "A Hamburger Today" subsite and avoid "Slice".
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on February 26, 2013, 04:23 PM
StoneCut,

the flour is clearly not clear. high protein content is to aim for.

the "wet" dough does take some patience to handle - think of keeping the inside wet and use flour on the surface so that it can be handled. UB's naan bread was my learning start point (66% hydration).

i usually try to confirm things before trying things new on the pizza front from pizza quest - peter reinhart and his webisodes and blog.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on February 26, 2013, 04:41 PM
JerryM,

Caputo Blu "Pizzeria" Tipo 00 flour only has 9% gluten so I don't see your point about high protein being best. Regular Caputo Tipo 0 (not 00) has about 12-15%, so it has more gluten than "00". Most Pizzaiola mention that 12-15% gluten is best for Pizza, hence why professional pizzaiolas somtimes use various dough conditioners for "00". Puzzles me why they don't use "tipo 0", though, which even "Molino Caputo" mentions as a very good Pizza flour on their homepage.

Anyway, I found out that I might be able to find differences in german "all-purpose" flour (Type 405) when getting it from different brands. Brands made in France and Italy will usually have 12-15% gluten whereas "405" flour from Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland will have lower gluten content (this has to do with the actual grain used).

I also found an interesting thread in a german baking forum where someone compared various supermarket "all-purpose" flours, some specialty "breadmaking" flours and also Caputo Blu. You can barely see any difference between the resulting pizzas, to be honest. His conclusion, after baking more than 40 Pizzas, was: The flour makes little difference. It's all in the technique/preparation.

That being said I will try out some other flours when I stumble over them - AND I will check the manufacturing country on any flour I buy from now on :)

Oh: I found a "Tipo 00" flour in a supermarket two weeks ago. On the back of the bag it said "Type 405" in small print, so I really don't know what to say or so. I will need to remeber which brand and store it was again so I can take a picture.


Peter Reinhart provided me with some fascinating reading, too, but I soon realized that it doesn't help me at all since our flour uses a different categorization system so I completely ditched following him :(
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on March 02, 2013, 08:43 AM
StoneCut,

interesting stuff that is new to me.

i think our bread flour is in the 12-15% range. i have tried what's called very strong bread flour "canadian" (from our uk sainsbury's) which gave poor result (too much springback). i've also used tipo 00 and not been impressed. i've not tried 00 in my wfo but have it on the todo list albeit a very low priority.

i've made deep pan pizza for years too using plain flour ~ probably something like 9% gluten. for thin crust the stronger flour is my preference after much trial and error down to the open bubble structure.

the technique and preparation as you say is key ie amount of mixing and length of fermentation. once these are in place then the flour resurfaces with opporunity.

best wishes

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on March 30, 2013, 03:06 AM
A pizza is built on James may's man lab

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rmhlc/hd/James_Mays_Man_Lab_Series_3_Episode_1/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01rmhlc/hd/James_Mays_Man_Lab_Series_3_Episode_1/)

Not too serious mind, maybe a bit of fun or interest for you guys.

starts at 15 mins 10 secs
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on March 30, 2013, 08:51 AM
harley,

nice simply and short intro to wfo and not bad outcome for a 1st go at it.

i've treated myself to a IR temp in preparation for the season.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130804603113?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130804603113?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on March 30, 2013, 09:47 AM
Haven't watched the video yet. Just wanted to say that I tried out that 'Tipo 00' flour I mentioned I had seen in a supermarkt recently. It was nice but really not much different from my previous flour (which costs only a fraction). Will try some german 'type 550' sometime, which is said to be bread flour.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on March 31, 2013, 11:44 AM
in case of interest i've persevered with the serious eats fool proof deep pan and now well pleased with result.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/01/the-pizza-lab-the-worlds-easiest-pizza-no-knead-no-stretch-pan-pizza.html?ref=search (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/01/the-pizza-lab-the-worlds-easiest-pizza-no-knead-no-stretch-pan-pizza.html?ref=search)

i think i've pretty much stuck to the original recipe but have probably gained better understanding of the making:

1) i put the dough in the fridge overnight (my norm) then take out next morning and leave 2 hrs to come up to room temp.
2) then split and ball and bench stretch "shape" like for thin base. leaving just the final stretching to be done in the tin.
3) leave the dough in the tin for a good couple of hrs until it's risen.

i add 1 to 2 tbsp of veg oil into the base of the tin before adding the dough.

the real advantage over this deep pan method is that you can sort of go out during the day and just top and put the tins in the oven when you get back.

well impressed with the results.

recipe for 2 off 14" based on 0.125" or 3.2mm thickness factor:

bread flour 579g
rye flour 30g (5%)
water 426g (70%)
salt 6g (1%)
ady 6g (1%)
oil in dough 12g (2%)

i also make using sourdough when i have enough supply
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on April 03, 2013, 07:41 PM
Got any pics Jerry?

The one on seriouseats looks fantastic. Will any thickness of cake tin do, do I need a heavy duty type tin?

I definitely want to try pan pizza, I'm sure my family would prefer it if its like your usual pan pizza at takeaways ie more soft and cripsy where the oil cooks the underside.

Also, no sugar in the dough for that pizza recipe?
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on April 10, 2013, 06:28 PM
harley,

not taken any pics but will do next time. i do like my thin pizza but this deep pan has really hit the spot too. as you say it's that oil underneath that makes it so yummy with the balance of the soft yet heavy toppings on top.

i have bought "pizza" pans. they seem just as thick as cake tins. i think the rim height is important with 2 of mine at 40 mm and 1 off at 50 mm.

i don't think the sugar is needed as the top "browns" naturally down to the longer period in the oven. i have added "sugar" honey for thin pizza to help browning of the top rim. i tend not to like the sugar down to cold fermenting and the feeling that the sugar goes against the idea of slow ferment.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on April 15, 2013, 12:08 PM
Has anybody tried using the san marzano tomatoes for the pizza sauce? All the serious pizza sites say these are by far the most flavoursome for pizza and pasta sauce.
   Im thinking of hunting some down but would value somebody else's opinion who has cooked with these as they look tricky to track down and a bit pricey too!

Well pleased with the pizzas im turning out now, but getting the bl**dy things off the peel and onto the stone is an art in itself.

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on April 15, 2013, 01:25 PM
I've only used canned San Marzano tomatoes but they taste great (also for pasta sauces).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on April 17, 2013, 06:24 PM
pic of the serious eats foolproof deep pan (14 inch, 11 min bake, ~500F):

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/fe21e21f76d720f6fd311b768e1e0737.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#fe21e21f76d720f6fd311b768e1e0737.jpg)

Whandsy,

i can feel you're pain. i was likewise feeling i'd never get a pizza down the peel successfully. you will get there. the use of a flour semolina mix was the 1st step forward. i feel with time you also build a gut feeling for how wet the dough is and can add more bench flour when shaping to compensate. getting the amount of sauce just right helps too.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on April 17, 2013, 07:47 PM
Superb looking pizza there jerry, I've been sticking to the Italian style thin crust, I think I just need to be more liberal with the flour semolina mix for the peel removal.

Have you ever used San marzano toms? Stonecuts happy with them, I'm happy with my own pizza sauce however if there's something better out there........! :o

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on April 19, 2013, 06:11 PM
Whandsy,

not not tried the san marzano down to never seeing on shelf locally. i do think they would make a difference but not enough to mail order.

i too think the other ingredients in the sauce also matter and tuning them to what you like gets you quite a long way to being sorted.

i'm sure peter reinhart of pizzaquest rates them and for me he knows his stuff.

my fav still remains the thin base but the deep pan are certainly well worth a try
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 02, 2013, 03:02 PM
Whandsy,

not not tried the san marzano down to never seeing on shelf locally. i do think they would make a difference but not enough to mail order.

i too think the other ingredients in the sauce also matter and tuning them to what you like gets you quite a long way to being sorted.

i'm sure peter reinhart of pizzaquest rates them and for me he knows his stuff.

Jerry (or anybody)
I nearly took the plunge on mail ordering some San marzano's but before processing the order I did a quick web search and noticed the larger tesco stores stock them. Even better is that they're on offer down from
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on May 02, 2013, 05:54 PM
Whandsy,

spot on detective work. will have a look for them.


ps got a tin - tesco finest ehh. "Pomodoro S. Marzano Dell'agro Sarnese - Nocerino". will try em out this next week.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on May 13, 2013, 07:13 PM
have tried the san marzano on deep pan - please i tried it but not sold.

it tastes slightly better than normal chopped tin toms. i got less pip and stalk when i sieved c/w normal (~0.5). in the tom sauce with herbs etc the difference is lost.

i could not detect any change in the cooked pizza.

certainly not worth the extra dosh (~x4)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 13, 2013, 07:39 PM
have tried the san marzano on deep pan - please i tried it but not sold.

it tastes slightly better than normal chopped tin toms. i got less pip and stalk when i sieved c/w normal (~0.5). in the tom sauce with herbs etc the difference is lost.

i could not detect any change in the cooked pizza.

certainly not worth the extra dosh (~x4)

Did you drain the toms 1st jerry or did you crush them along with the juice?, I've been using the whole tin but I do think it leaves them a bit watery.

I made a lovely pizza the other day based on tony gemigmani's cholula pizza(video and method on youtube) I substituted the cholula for encona hot sauce though, was good. (Pic below)

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5ef120f318174922361e3b39331e68ef.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on May 14, 2013, 08:48 PM
Whandsy,

love that pic of your pizza - you're clearly there - well pleased.

i used the whole tin ie crushed the tomato and the juice/water. i add 1 tbsp of tom puree heaped which makes thicker. the "watery" make up seems to suit the high temp cooking though.

will have to look up the cholula.

ps make the sauce 24hrs in advance. the herbs soak up quite a lot too.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 27, 2013, 10:22 PM
Buzzin,

Just made a couple of pizzas, (Peter reinhart dough) its quite a wet dough but managed at last to toss them into the desired pizza shape! (difficult with high hydration dough if not tried). Anyways, managed to get them off the peel and onto the pizza stone, because the shape was right and the air in the dough had moved to the edge, the crust had the lovely soft aeration that's desired, pics below!  :) :)

Sorry to bore non homemade pizza fans, but getting it rights a bl**dy tough job!

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/bc3a43136407171a1ee78b30c522bb07.jpg)

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/6e11f947b3de3c98b07a95cf87ec5c75.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on May 28, 2013, 11:15 AM
Looks absolutely delicious, only a little bit too much topping on there IMHO.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on May 28, 2013, 12:35 PM
The cross-section of the base looks just perfect to me.  I don't anticipate I will ever make one (too much faffing around for what is, after all, only glorified cheese-on-toast, IMHO) but I do miss the days when pizza Napoletana featured on everyone's pizza menus.  A very simple pizza with cheese, tomato, olives, anchovies and herbs, but to my mind greatly superior to the modern chicken-tikka / pepperoni / Hawai'ian nonsense that seems ubiquitous these days.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 28, 2013, 01:43 PM
but I do miss the days when pizza Napoletana featured on everyone's pizza menus.  A very simple pizza with cheese, tomato, olives, anchovies and herbs, but to my mind greatly superior to the modern chicken-tikka / pepperoni / Hawai'ian nonsense that seems ubiquitous these days.

** Phil.

I know what you mean phil, a simple italian style pizza can deliver a delicious meal standalone, however some of the pizza shop concoctions are better suited for a late night snack on the way home from the pub! (To be fair, at that stage of the night, they're also delicious hehe!)

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Gav Iscon on May 29, 2013, 10:10 AM
So after reading through this thread and drooling over the pictures, I was sitting having evening meal with the missus and the daughter was cooking in the background.  I quite fancy having a go at making some pizzas and theres a 15" pizza stone on Amazon for
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on May 29, 2013, 11:03 AM
(Pic below)

Whandsy - the trouble was, your picture was not below; just a hyperlink. The insertion of an image is so easy, I'm sure other members can explain how it's done. In the meantime, I've edited two of your posts, so that the fine pictures display in all their glory. Your pizzas look delicious.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on May 29, 2013, 11:18 AM
(Pic below)

Whandsy - the trouble was, your picture was not below; just a hyperlink. The insertion of an image is so easy, I'm sure other members can explain how it's done. In the meantime, I've edited two of your posts, so that the fine pictures display in all their glory.

Well, you might have rotated them through 90o, George, while you were at it; at the moment they look as if they are sliding off the plate under gravity !
** Phil.

Images rotated as suggested :
-----------------------------
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/5bd0d629a7fec60066aea244fe63e916.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/f943a5c168aeb909227723d2b1fb9139.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 29, 2013, 11:22 AM
Thanks George

The problem is, I use an iPad as a pc and unfortunately it doesn't display all of the embedding link nor does it let me copy it!(it tries to copy the box around the link, not the link itself

Instead I have to manually type the code into the post with 2 screens open at the same time and the link is the only one that shows the full code.

If anyone knows how to get around this then help would be appreciated as this as you can imagine is a pain in the old backside!

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on May 29, 2013, 11:51 AM
I use an iPad as a pc and unfortunately it doesn't display all of the embedding link...Instead I have to manually type the code into the post

I'm not sure this will work but, if you are manually typing in the code, can't you also manually type in the img and /img commands which is all I did, to make the photos display. That's img inside square brackets before the link starting with http, and /img inside square brackets at the end, after .jpg

Whereas you'd repeated the links twice, somehow for each image, and neither would appear because the img bits were missing. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 29, 2013, 12:14 PM
I will try this next time thanks George
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Unclebuck on May 29, 2013, 01:18 PM
Just made a couple of pizzas


nice looking pizza W well done
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on May 29, 2013, 02:29 PM
Is Unclebuck's post #153 a mistake, or what? It seems to be just one big quote, with no extra comment.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Gav Iscon on May 29, 2013, 02:43 PM
Is Unclebuck's post #153 a mistake, a wind-up, two fingers in the air, or what? It seems to be just one big quote, with no extra comment.

I'll delete it as 'spam' unless anyone can suggest why not.

Is his, 'Nice looking pizza w, well done' not the message and he's somehow got it in the middle off the 2 quotes.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: chewytikka on May 29, 2013, 04:38 PM
IMHO, Pizza is probably the most diluted and destroyed plate of food in the UK.
I think the rot set in when Domino, Pizza  Hut and the like appeared on the high street.

Your Pizza's look great W, very rustic indeed.

Have you ever tried cooking a Calzone, really is my favourite type of Pizza.

I have friends and family who are Italian and have restaurants. I really should grab some recipes sometime.

Here's a random pic of my favourite, Calzone with various fillings. Yum

(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/93a8469dd400f2b8d2da19ab98a7794d.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#93a8469dd400f2b8d2da19ab98a7794d.jpg)

cheers Chewy
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Les on May 29, 2013, 06:19 PM
A recipe would be good chewy,
Love Calzone

Les
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 29, 2013, 06:44 PM
Never tried making calzone Chewy, maybe need to put that on my radar as it is a good dish when done properly. The reason I say that is the last time I had one was in an italian restaurant and it was stone cold in the middle so was somewhat off putting. That pic of your looks highly edible though!

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: George on May 29, 2013, 09:07 PM
Is his, 'Nice looking pizza w, well done' not the message and he's somehow got it in the middle off the 2 quotes.

Many thanks. What a muddle, now sorted, and you spotted it!
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on May 30, 2013, 05:21 PM
Whandsy,

what hydration were you at. i ask as the mozza (nancy silverton) is suggested to be 78% which i've not mastered. i'm currently at 70% and it seems pretty good and similar to your result (the air bubble structure).

ps never tried calzone but can imagine how good it could be. actually got a pizza stuck on the peel once and it turned into a calzone but very poor one at that as not only did i get the pizza stuck on the peel it also then stuck on the stone too - it can go horribly wrong sometimes when you go off the comfort zone in search of improvement.

loving the pics.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 30, 2013, 05:42 PM
Jerry

Below is the link for the pizza dough recipe I have been using. I actually have bread bakers apprentice ebook which is where the recipe comes from, I did notice however when searching the web that it has been posted so here's the recipe and method

http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/001199.html (http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/001199.html)

Wayne
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on May 31, 2013, 11:29 AM
Hi,

Enjoyed reading this thread as when I bought an outdoor table and chairs I got a free pizza oven thrown in :D.   I have used it a couple of times now and the pizzas are fantastic, much better than Dominos etc.  I have only tried the Jamie Oliver recipe for the base and sauce but with great success 8) 

I have though made a few calizones but unintentional! ;D  the pizzas are a real pain to get off the paddle but I am getting better...ish at it.

These are infact the first Pizzas I made in the oven, not round but very very tasty ;)

cheers,

Will



Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on May 31, 2013, 11:48 AM
Good effort willy, looks great. Regards the paddle release, I use a combination of flour and semolina on the paddle and quite liberally too, sticking is a pain in the ass, especially with a wet dough!

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: curryhell on May 31, 2013, 11:22 PM
i'm no pizza fan, far from it.  I haven't eaten one for about almost three years.  But I sure wouldn't mind tucking into that little beauty.  All it needs is some freshly chopped chillis sprinkled on the top  ;D
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on June 01, 2013, 02:38 PM
I got a free pizza oven thrown in :D.   


Will,

a photo of the oven would be appreciated.


ps Whandsy, will have good read up of the Peter link (he's the no 1 for me, via pizza quest). for info the hydration is 69% (14oz water divided by the 20.25 flour).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on June 02, 2013, 11:52 AM
Whandsy,

what hydration were you at. i ask as the mozza (nancy silverton) is suggested to be 78% which i've not mastered. i'm currently at 70% and it seems pretty good and similar to your result (the air bubble structure).

Jerry

I have not come across the mozza pizzas til you mentioned it. The recipe for the dough does get rave reviews! What issues have you encountered? Is it the shaping and getting into the oven? That looks like it would be a tough task with so much moisture.

Are you trying to make it to exact spec with the wheat germ and malted honey etc? Am tempted to give it a go but, in truth, I'm happy with reinharts dough.

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on June 03, 2013, 08:58 AM
Hi,

Here are two pictures of the Pizza oven.  As you can see it is a gas one. It can get up to about 700F but I generally cook at about 550F which cooks the pizzas in about 4 minutes but it needs 25 minutes to get to about 600F then by the time I get my pizza off the paddle it drops to 550F ::).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on June 03, 2013, 06:06 PM
Whandsy,

there are about 4 off video by mozza this being my fav http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTxwYZwbolo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTxwYZwbolo)

i've not added in the wheat germ and malt but need to. i looked on ebay but decided to look out for it locally (health shops). i currently use 5% rye which must be along the lines of the wheat germ so this would be the last to add in. the malt is a real priority for the curiosity and expectation.

i was holding back with the 2 off untried ingredients whilst i was trying to get the hydration up but then curry got in the way. the extra water at the 78% seemed to speed up the fermentation to the point that the dough had over fermented (prone to tearing)(i currently ferment 24 hrs, ie make in morning then in fridge over night and dough boxes out mid day ready for evening cook). i want to stick to 15-20% sourdough and need to perhaps reduce the time in fridge etc but not easy to do - need a few goes. need to get back onto it.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on June 03, 2013, 06:13 PM
Willyeckerslike,

really jealous. that heat up time is just perfect.

my do hutch oven is essentially same as yours but made of brick. i'm currently modding it and if that fails then might just have to get more info on yours (had quick dig and not looking good for uk and price would take some getting used to).

i'm also thinking of a mesh filled design as a fallback having gained inspiration from UB via the naan post.

mine currently has too much bottom heat and i'm essentially putting the shelf up a few notches.

many thanks for pick.

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: chewytikka on June 04, 2013, 02:19 PM
Good effort willy, looks great. Regards the paddle release, I use a combination of flour and semolina on the paddle and quite liberally too, sticking is a pain in the ass, especially with a wet dough!

W

Why not buy a couple of cheap Pizza Pans, most real life Pizzerias use them.
Make life a bit easier, me thinks

Was in a local Italian restaurant last night, grabbed a video with my iPhone,
went a bit wonky, but shows making a Calzone, with a twist.

The Pizza Dough is very simple, 00 flour, fresh yeast, salt and good olive oil.
proved for around an hour, ready to go and very tasty.

http://youtu.be/LDCme2DKr94 (http://youtu.be/LDCme2DKr94)

cheers Chewy
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on June 04, 2013, 07:18 PM
Good effort willy, looks great. Regards the paddle release, I use a combination of flour and semolina on the paddle and quite liberally too, sticking is a pain in the ass, especially with a wet dough!

W

Why not buy a couple of cheap Pizza Pans, most real life Pizzerias use them.
Make life a bit easier, me thinks

cheers Chewy

Unfortunately chewy most domestic ovens don't reach the temperatures of a pizza oven, so the heat of the pizza stone is needed on the doughs bare surface to cook the dough correctly. It's a bit of a challenge to get home pizza to taste like an authentic pizzeria.

Willys pizza oven looks like it'd do the job with a pizza pan though!

Nice video hehe, definitely pizza fusion!!


Wayne
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on June 05, 2013, 09:44 AM
Good effort willy, looks great. Regards the paddle release, I use a combination of flour and semolina on the paddle and quite liberally too, sticking is a pain in the ass, especially with a wet dough!

W

Why not buy a couple of cheap Pizza Pans, most real life Pizzerias use them.
Make life a bit easier, me thinks

Was in a local Italian restaurant last night, grabbed a video with my iPhone,
went a bit wonky, but shows making a Calzone, with a twist.

The Pizza Dough is very simple, 00 flour, fresh yeast, salt and good olive oil.
proved for around an hour, ready to go and very tasty.


cheers Chewy

Hi,

I have thought about using pans, I have some good quality ones I use for cakes etc, but I like the way the bottom crisps up just right on the stones when I get the release from the paddle right, really thin and light, not too crispy but firm enough to pick a slice up without too much bend in it.  I always found when doing them in a conventional oven getting the middle cooked was difficult but in this oven I have had no problem at all.

Interesting Calizone I might have a go at making one.
s.
Will
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on July 07, 2013, 10:16 AM
finally got round to trying Nancy's "mozza" hydration (77%). i made the dough in the evening like they (would normally make in morning) and cold fermented overnight. used 20% sourdough and cooked early evening. dough was good not too sticky and not over fermented.

the pizza were poor (takes too long to cook the center by which time the extremities are over cooked). i'm dropping further effort switching back to 70% hydration which seems optimum (big bubble structure).

still going to look out for the wheat germ and barley malt as these could well be the key elements given the hydration flop.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on July 07, 2013, 11:34 AM
What oven temperature are you managing to get to jerry?. I'm managing to get to about 590f and about 600f on the pizza stone, last dough I made was with rheinharts dough linked earlier in the thread and left fermenting in the fridge for 2 days. Very happy with the outcome although I'm curious to try ken forkish pizza dough as well, I have his bread book and the loaves are superb.

A link below
http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/bread-recipes/overnight_straight_pizza_dough.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/mix/index.ssf/bread-recipes/overnight_straight_pizza_dough.html)

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on July 09, 2013, 06:02 PM
Whandsy,

i don't know the stone temp (quarry tile) for my domestic oven (it hits 550f on dial gauge). i've been on deep pan for ages now and not used the stone in my domestic since getting my Infra Red gun. will take on next use (could be a while given wfo and good weather)

the 77% was done in my doghutch wfo. the stone was at 750f and the oven walls at 600f with 3 to 4 min bake.

i've been using same dough for both thin and deep pan ie 2 day ferment. the 77% being 1.5 day. can post recipe if of interest.

will check out your link. i'm pretty happy with dough and see only fine tuning ie the malt and wheat germ. my wfo is next priority - want to get better top heat to bring bake time down.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: harley on July 18, 2013, 08:31 PM
Well, not much has changed, still to seek out some some pans for a pan style pizza. Also need to source a decent mozzarella block that's grateable. Still using the ball of mozz in a watery bag. Not bad and much better than supermarket grated mozz.

Anways, thought I'd add a pic of one of my recent efforts.
(http://uppix.com/f-pizza1351e83e73001369c8.jpg)

Only thing I'm trying is adding bird eye chillis and chilli powder to the sauce. not authentic to the more serious guys but it really hits the spot.

on a side note
Curries/base making still going strong. I'm a Madras Head, and have 3/4 a week.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on July 28, 2013, 10:14 AM
a very pleasing pic from harley - just shows with a little effort you can produce restaurant pizza at home.

finally had the opportunity to get Mozza/Nancy's special ingredients (wheatgerm 2.69 1kg, barley malt 2.65 454g). Holland & Barrett being my savior.

used 8g of each in 750g flour (bakers 1%) which i think was to Nancy's spec. the barley malt was instant hit but could not detect difference from the wheatgerm. the barley malt gave a nice hint "beer" in the flavour and i feel helped the top of the crust to crisp and darken much better (than with say honey).

the barley malt did advance the dough more than usual (would make in the evening for cold ferment and use next day as opposed to the make in the morning).

i currently use 5% rye flour which might have masked the wheatgerm effect.

going to play around with the amounts next (say x2).

in short sold on barley malt - a must have for me.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on August 06, 2013, 02:23 PM
I've been reading a lot of books about Pizza recently (including an originally Italian book for the Pizza business) and I found it rather odd that almost all of the recipes only have around 60% hydration, especially the original Neapolitan ones. I think I'll actually lower my hydration for the next batch which I'll make next month when I can finally order one of those modded Pizzamakers from Bestron that people on other sites are raving about (for home use).
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on August 08, 2013, 06:14 PM
StoneCut,

certainly give it a go. i started out i think at around 60% and found Jamie Oliver recipe at 65% and now settled on 70%.

i think the 60% works down to the very fast bake - i think 90 secs typ. i have a pdf on the Neapolitan spec which might be of interest.

Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on August 10, 2013, 12:15 PM
I linked to that PDF somewhere within this thread ;)

I recently did a comparison of Tipo 00 flour and our german Type 405 - the flavour was very much alike but the pizza turned out better with the 405. Who would've thought? I'll do a more elaborate comparison another day with more flour types and hopefully not forget to snap some pictures again.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on August 11, 2013, 10:31 PM
Today, I tried the "Pizza Pilgrims" method of baking pizza in a frying pan (and then a grill). You can find the method, I used my own dough, though:
http://pizzapilgrims.co.uk/frying-pan-pizza-recipe/#.UggBdtdlWJ5 (http://pizzapilgrims.co.uk/frying-pan-pizza-recipe/#.UggBdtdlWJ5)

This is the resulting Pizza:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img43/4503/vlvi.jpg)

Underside:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img818/5821/f4cu.jpg)

And here are some Tocchetti (deep-fried pizza fingers) that I also made:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img13/1116/8nvw.jpg)

My daughter loved these ;)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: goncalo on August 11, 2013, 11:24 PM
SC,
That is a fantastic looking pizza. It reminds me a lot of one of my favorite italian restaurants around here. Did you get your breston yet?
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on August 12, 2013, 02:15 PM
No, I'll order mine at beginning of September. This one was prepared in a hot pan and then placed under the grill. Total time about 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Gav Iscon on September 06, 2013, 05:09 PM
Anyone seen one the Uuni ovens in use yet?


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tapaninaho/uuni-a-small-fast-and-affordable-wood-fired-pizza (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tapaninaho/uuni-a-small-fast-and-affordable-wood-fired-pizza)

and

http://uuni.net/blogs/uuni (http://uuni.net/blogs/uuni)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on September 06, 2013, 07:15 PM
That looks intersting indeed but I still wouldn't know where to put it, I surely wouldn't want to fire that up in my flat... And if you have the room then why not simply build a proper Wood-fired oven yourself?

3 minutes baking time is also way too much for a Neapolitan-style Pizza that he claims it's capable of making - Neapolitan pizza bakes for 90 seconds or 2 minutes maximum. I can currently make a pizza in my modded G3ferrari Napoli in less than 3 minutes already, although it won't have that wood-fired oven taste. Most of the taste comes from proving the dough for a long time and not the burnt wood, though.

If I had the money that the Uuni costs I would buy an Effeuno P134H instead:
http://www.effeuno.biz/en/linea-easy-pizza.php (http://www.effeuno.biz/en/linea-easy-pizza.php)

For now, I've ordered some more heating elements for my G3ferrari and will mod it even further. I'll upload a picture of my Pizzas once I'm finished with that and messing about with different types of flour.

If you do come across any videos of the Uuni I'm definitely interested, though.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Willyeckerslike on September 07, 2013, 06:16 AM
Interesting oven,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onjAl4Tw-uU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onjAl4Tw-uU)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Gav Iscon on September 07, 2013, 10:04 AM

If you do come across any videos of the Uuni I'm definitely interested, though.

To be honest I only posted it as I though it would be of interest to the Pizza lovers of this forum. Novel idea though.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on September 08, 2013, 08:08 PM
Here are some pics from today's pizza - oven still only at M1 stage mod but pretty decent I think.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img23/776/z7wl.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Gav Iscon on September 08, 2013, 08:22 PM
They look massively good  ;D

Here they are resized to 720 pixels wide and saved for web.

Nice pizzas. I'm going to have to have a bash at these.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on September 08, 2013, 08:39 PM
Thanks, Gav. Pretty annoying to resize pics with an iPad :/

Anyway, the 'Tipo 00' flour really does make a difference after all. Here's today's recipe - I had to aim high with the yeast because I only had 8 hours of proving time. I found an interesting maturation table (outlining the amount of yeast needed) and it really helps:

1kg flour Tipo 00
650ml water
2.5g fresh yeast
30g salt

Make a dough of all ingredients but only 60% of the flour, rest covered with a damp towel for 10 mins. It'll be a pancake-like dough.
Add the remaining flour in 100g steps while mixing until all flour is incorporated.
Let rest another 10 mins.
Perform some 'stretch and folds' and let rest another 10 mins. Look it up.
Divide dough into 200g portions and ball them up - hard to explain, check out some videos about it.
Prove the balls in well-oiled plastic containers for approx. 8 hours.
Once proved, Flatten the dough balls from the inside out sparing the last 1cm to create the cornicione (the crust).
Add tomato puree (San Marzano tomates preferred) and condiments, as well as plenty of shredded Mozzarella (and some Provolone if you have).
Bake in the hottest oven you can get your hands on. These were baked at 400 Celsius for just under 3 minutes.

The Pizza pilgrims method linked to above works great, too, though.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on October 21, 2013, 07:28 PM
Here's my latest attempt at creating Neapolitan style Pizza:

(http://i.imgur.com/Y7sgwWC.jpg)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on October 25, 2013, 03:50 PM
Stonecut,

well done - top notchy.

that G3 oven looks pretty good - 400C is impressive.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on October 25, 2013, 11:50 PM
Well, my G3ferrari is heavily modified now. I replaced the top heating element (originally 600W) with a 1500W one. The pizza bakes in about 90 seconds now (as Neapolitan should). Only problem is: Now the damn thing gets so hot (600
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on October 26, 2013, 06:06 PM
Stonecut,

thanks for extra info. will keep lookout on ebay. i've only used wfo 3 times this year. i'm planning on a UB replica to get it ready for the spring. if ebay comes up trumps on the money front then say no more.

i've got to 2 min and 2.5 min in the wfo and 90 secs is something i can't really appreciated - seems too fast to cook. i know of course different.

best wishes
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: JerryM on April 13, 2014, 10:19 AM
having tried out a few times have adopted the practice of starting the dough (minus the yeast) 1 day early ie 2 days before cooking.

Jeff Varasano alerted to the need of autolyse and typ 12 to 30 mins is quoted as norm.

the 24 hr autolyse has 2 benefits for me:
1) i use sea salt and this full dissolves over the period without the need for pre grinding or dissolving
2) the gluten seems to be more (more stretch)

the down side is that adding of the yeast/sourdough after the 1st 24 hrs is quite messy and appears as if it will never combine into the dough mass. after a few peter reinhart corner fold sessions it soon does.

probably only of interest to the few - this being at the marginal end of improvement
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: StoneCut on April 23, 2014, 11:49 AM
One thing that really does help is using the proper flour. It really has to be "Tipo 00".

I also bought a 25kg bag of Caputo Pizzeria (one of the most renowned flours for Pizza making) recently and it certainly imporoved flavour even more. It's quite hard to brown even in my G3ferrari, though. It needs a cold rise (in the fridge) for at least 2 days so I need to go down to about 1.5g of yeast.

In Naples, however, they apparently do a warm rise at room temperature for about 12 hours. However, I prefer the taste of cold-risen dough. I tried the dough as written in the EU directive for proper "Neapolitan pizza" and found my method better. (If anyone needs a link to that EU directive then send me a PM).

Anyways, I also tried some expensive italian "beer" yeast instead of the regular german cake yeast I normally use and I couldn't detect any difference whatsoever. They appear to be the same thing.

One other thing that really does make quite a substantial difference (besides the flour) is the tomato sauce you use. San Marzano canned tomatoes really are excellent albeit quite expensive.

Still looking for the perfect Mozzarella to use on Pizza, though. Right now I "kick it up a notch" by grating some fresh parmesan over the pizza once baked and also give a little swirl of extra-virgin olive oil on top after seeing that in a Pizza place I rate very highly.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: toddk63 on April 27, 2014, 03:33 PM
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.230109417000351.69607.100000038825169&type=1&l=7648b64e35 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.230109417000351.69607.100000038825169&type=1&l=7648b64e35)

Here is my "Poor Mans Wood Fired Oven"

Gas grill, pizza stone, wood chips.  Not shown is a foil backed fiberglass insulation blanket I throw over the top of the grill.
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on June 01, 2014, 10:08 PM

Really pleased with how my pizzas are turning out these days, i use my own sourdough starter and leave the dough fermenting in the fridge for 3 to 4 days prior to cooking. Wonderful base with a fantastic crumb structure!

This is the link for the recipe i base it upon.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15844/sourdough-pizza-good-kitchen-oven-pizzas-get (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15844/sourdough-pizza-good-kitchen-oven-pizzas-get)

W




 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/e5a329c78def951bc11da8f8457bdfa1.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#e5a329c78def951bc11da8f8457bdfa1.jpg)}
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on June 01, 2014, 10:21 PM
Looks great whandsy. What method did you use to develop your sourdough starter?
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: ELW on June 01, 2014, 10:56 PM
Nice whandsy, being lazy without checking your posts back, are these conventional oven, stone / quarry tile pizzas?
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on June 01, 2014, 11:03 PM
Nj
I used just plain old organic rye flour and water and after about 5 days it got going. Its now a year and half old and it sits in the fridge. I refresh it every couple of weeks.

I started mine similar to the method below. Once doubling in size regularly about day 7 or 8, i gradually introduced white flour with the rye over a couple of days and then eventually used all white flour.

The breads and resultant pizzas are delicious.

http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/rye-sourdough-starter-in-easy-steps/ (http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/rye-sourdough-starter-in-easy-steps/)

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: Whandsy on June 01, 2014, 11:06 PM
Nice whandsy, being lazy without checking your posts back, are these conventional oven, stone / quarry tile pizzas?

Elw

I use a plain old pizza stone with the oven cranked up on full for about 45 mins prior to cooking. The higher the temperature your oven will go to, the better ;)

W
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on June 02, 2014, 06:49 AM
Thanks whandsy. Looks like a well written piece with none of the hoodoo voodoo I've seen in some other sourdough articles. I'll get myself some organic rye flour and try it as I enjoy home baked pizza but can never quite get the base to taste right. Good thread :)
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: ELW on June 02, 2014, 10:19 AM
Nice whandsy, being lazy without checking your posts back, are these conventional oven, stone / quarry tile pizzas?

Elw

I use a plain old pizza stone with the oven cranked up on full for about 45 mins prior to cooking. The higher the temperature your oven will go to, the better ;)

W

I used 4 x unglazed quarry tiles in the past. which were about 50p each whandsy. Also used an oiled pan on top of them for pan.
Guy in pizza place local to me told me their dough is normally 2 days old depending how busy they are.
He also told me he doesn't bother with a baking stone at home, just gives the base an initial bake on its own then tops it. Must try this when I have more time as i'm out of tiles.
B- in- law has a wood fired oven out of which he does 90 second pizzas
Title: Re: Pizza from scratch
Post by: natterjak on June 02, 2014, 12:02 PM
I just use a Teflon coated mesh mat, such as these:
http://www.planitproducts.co.uk/quickachips.html (http://www.planitproducts.co.uk/quickachips.html)

Seems to work ok at letting the heat of the oven get to the underside of the pizza.