Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: pg89 on August 23, 2009, 06:24 PM
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I am trying to replicate a BIR Dhansak or Madras (or any main dish really!), but I am doing something terribly wrong as the end result tastes disgusting!
I have never seen or tasted real BIR base gravy so I dont know if mine is completely wrong, although I have carefully followed a recipe called "melting base 3" from a different curry website which is pretty much the same as all the other bases I have made (I have tried several). The base itself tastes bland and watery, and I have diluted it to a thin consistency.
When I fry sugar, it eventually burns and sticks all around the sides of my frying pan or wok. I also get bits of skin forming around the sides of the pan, where it usually bubbles a lot as it is frying.
The end result always smells and tastes the same. Bland, watery (even though the consistency is right), burnt and flavourless.
I have tried cooking on a low heat as well on my domestic range, and although it doesn't stick as bad, its still pretty much the same.
I tried a madras afterward just to experiment as there is no sugar involved, and that turned out burnt and disgusting as well.
I am guessing the problem lies in the base, although it seems fine when I make a Korma ???
I have uploaded some pics to try and show what my attempts look like. The dhansak looks like it should but it doesn't taste anything like the real thing. Its barely edible! Any ideas what im doing wrong?
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Base gravy
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Madras setup
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dhansak looks like it should but it doesn't taste anything like the real thing. Its barely edible! Any ideas what im doing wrong?
Umm...
When I fry sugar, it eventually burns and sticks all around the sides of my frying pan or wok. I also get bits of skin forming around the sides of the pan, where it usually bubbles a lot as it is frying.
The end result always smells and tastes the same. Bland, watery (even though the consistency is right), burnt and flavourless.
This?
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pg89,
there's probably too much in this post to answer. cooking curry is like making a jigsaw each piece has to get into place before u can get the real benefit.
for me u need to step back and go at it a bit more slowly - i'd follow the BE post for base and madras. it's real good learning. http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2815
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2815)
it sounds like the base is turning out fine but as it's not one i've made or have knowledge on i can't be sure. u would have to post the full recipe. bland and watery would not be how i'd describe my fav bases - it'd be more a smooth watery soup with a depth of taste where no spice is out of balance and no one ingredient over powers the rest. i'd make the rajver, saffron or SNS2008 after trying out the BE base to get a good feel for different bases.
these were my observations when i tasted real BIR base:
Colour, yellow brown
Texture, quite coarse thickish consistency (will almost soft peak) yet runny
Vegetable taste, onion, carrot and possibly potato
Spice taste, minimal spice certainly nothing sticking out, a hint of chilli and possibly ground coriander.
Oil, very little oil with a little yellow coloured oil on the surface and a few specks
Taste, Very smooth, mainly of onion, not salty, sweet or sour
Smell, onion and a hint of spice
u would also need to list out how u are cooking the curry. this is a crucial part.
for the life of me i don't understand where frying sugar comes in - it's a recipe for disaster.
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Hi pg89,
I have seen the recipe for the Melting Base 3 gravy and it looks reasonable from the ingredients and your pictures of it look ok.
Why not try cooking a simpler curry - the Bhuna and Madras recipes look ok on RCR - why not try one of these instead? I agree with others on frying sugar - Not sure what this is trying to achieve other than a sticky burnt mess in your pan!
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What I mean by frying sugar is....
dishes that contain a chefs spoon of sugar such as a korma, tikka masala, dhansak etc...
the sugar is always added first from what I have seen from real BIR kitchens along with the spices, tomato paste etc...
It is then flash fried for a few seconds before the base is added. The sugar starts to burn and stick though in the middle of the cooking process after everything has been added. I have noticed that most real BIR curries are cooked in what looks like a thin and flimsy aluminium pan and the sauce never seems to stick.
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I am trying to replicate a BIR Dhansak or Madras (or any main dish really!), but I am doing something terribly wrong as the end result tastes disgusting!
Frying sugar (in oil?) for a dhansak sounds peculiar to me. Are you sure it's not salt?
What's the main dish recipe you're using pg89? Perhaps you could spell it out so that people are more able to sensibly comment?
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Hi All,
I'm still stuck on this cruise ship in the middle of the Mediterranean (no curries for 12 days and counting!).
PG - You really need a bit of thickness to your base. A watery base will usually mean a watery curry unless you reduce it down for a long time. In a BIR they can probably reduce it very quickly using a high heat, but at home this will take a long time and be very messy.
As Jerry mentioned, the base should be thick but runny almost able to form peaks. The one I now swear by (see My Madras Recipe in the madras recipes section) is thick, salty and quite spicy. You certainly wouldn't want to eat it as it is. Once you have finished the recipe it tastes amazing and cooks very quickly.
I think give up on that base recipe and start again with some from here. BIR's seem to taste different in different places around the country, the only way for you to find the taste you are looking for is to experiment and try as many options as you can before settling on your favourite.
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What I mean by frying sugar is....
the sugar is always added first from what I have seen from real BIR kitchens along with the spices, tomato paste etc...
It is then flash fried for a few seconds before the base is added. The sugar starts to burn and stick though in the middle of the cooking process after everything has been added.
pg89,
i've no experience of using sugar like this - u need Secret Santa's or George's help on Korma.
the nearest i've got is when using coconut flour. i add this after the base but it almost immediately dries the whole pan if i get the proportions wrong ie too much flour and too little base or the base was not thin enough to start with. i now keep a jug of water by the cooker and add when needed. i would do same as soon as the sticking starts.
as chriswg says the "thinness" of the base is not easy to convey in words. it looks very watery but there is actually a lot of onion in it which when fried gives the texture we know. u just need to experiment a bit. go too much thin if in doubt as u will then just have to cook longer to evap it off. go the other way and it's prone to burning and sticking.
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hi,
are you using the method as done on the fatima dhansak video?
if so i just wonder if you are adding your ingredients in the wrong order, in the video the chef puts in his tomato paste first followed by salt and the rest of the spices. the sugar goes in last and then immediately goes back on the gas. (i think that if you fry sugar in oil on its own it will just go crispy and hard which is nasty)
he gives it a few stirs then leaves it a few seconds to start caramelising. after this he adds hot base (i think that this is important because you don't want to lower the temperature of the caramalising sugar too much when it has started)
if you get the caramalisation happening ok then it should all come together ok. the chef is using a mental hot burner without any trouble and i've made this on my inferior gas hob as well (yum except a bit too much sugar for me)
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i've no experience of using sugar like this - u need Secret Santa's or George's help on Korma.
I've no experience (yet) either! I think I'm going to try the CTM (video) recipe first, given the positive feedback from at least one member here. As for dry-frying sugar on very high heat, I would have expected it to stick but if the BIRs do it, then it must work. It would also fit with the elusive 'toffee/caramel' flavour which I've noticed in many BIR kormas over the years. I remain hopeful that the reporting of this dry frying sugar/coconut technique remains a real breakthrough, not previously mentioned or discussed here before, as far as I'm aware, i.e. curryholic got there first with his videos on youtube.
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I dont necessarily mean that the sugar is fried first, although it is added to the pan first along with coconut powder in the korma video (which is the only recipe that I can get to taste good).
In the dhansak video, and from watching a webcam that is set up in a takeaway kitchen http://www.easttakeaway.co.uk/webcam.php , most dishes start with oil, tomato paste (is this the same as pasata?), mix powder, chili powder and sugar. This creates a mushy mixture and is flash fried before the base is added.
It seems strange to me why dry ingredients are added first especially with such a big flame, and yet it never seems to stick or form bits of skin.
I can also confirm that after getting a sample of real base gravy from my local takeaway, all the ones I have been making taste completely wrong.
I tried frying a spoonful of the real base and it was like a magic reaction happened, I got that restaurant smell just from the base so I think the biggest priority is to get the base right.
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Hi pg89,
You said in your first post you would be happy with a madras. Why not forget the sugar idea for now and concentrate on a madras recipe, either from this site or the other one you got your melting base 3 recipe from.
There are several "proven" base recipes on this forum together with final madras recipes. I can knock out curries better than my local takeaway now but my local TA is crap to be honest and I can't beat a good TA or restaurant.
PS: You couldn't get the recipe for the real base you obtained, could you?
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most dishes start with oil, tomato paste (is this the same as pasata?), mix powder, chili powder and sugar
I think you'll find it's salt, not sugar, that is added at this stage pg89 (for most curries).
It seems strange to me why dry ingredients are added first especially with such a big flame
To get the flavour from the spices
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I am trying to replicate a BIR Dhansak or Madras (or any main dish really!), but...the end result tastes disgusting..when I fry sugar...the end result always smells and tastes the same. Bland, watery (even though the consistency is right), burnt and flavourless.
Pg89,
I think this base is pretty ordinary and normal (maybe apart from the creamed coconut). You should be able to get a decent tasting curry from it.
Stop trying to fry sugar! I think you will find that, for most curries, it is salt that is added during the frying stage!
If the final curry lacks flavour, try frying more spices and add less base. You should be able to get a decent tasting curry without using any base!
Try adding some Pataks (or similar) pastes with the spice mix (e.g. a teaspoon of Patak's Madras paste). Or try adding proprietary curry powder.
Make sure your other spices are fresh! Grind whole spices if necessary (e.g. coriander and cumin)
Try adding more spice than recipies suggest (e.g. 2 or three teaspoons a single serving)
Try sprinkling a little garam masala (e.g. 0.5 teaspoons) over the curry just before the end of cooking
Try adding a little (e.g. 0.5 teaspoon) of tandoori masala to the spice mixture.
Make sure you don't burn the onions, garlic, ginger or spices!
Try adding sugar (and/or salt) towards the end of cooking to "lift" the flavours.
Perhaps tell us EXACTLY what you are doing and we won't have to second guess!
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tomato paste (is this the same as pasata?)
it's very different.
tomato paste in at spice frying stage. i also water it down (~2:1 water to paste) http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2968.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2968.0)
passata in after base. not needed in most recipes but in a few it's crucial for me ie madras.