Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Hints, Tips, Methods and so on.. => Spices => Topic started by: Cory Ander on January 21, 2010, 01:18 AM
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Off topic posts moved from this thread by CA: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.msg36854#msg36854 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4069.msg36854#msg36854)
Posted by secret santa:
I haven't played with MSG for years, other than when it's combined with things like All Purpose Seasoning. The thought suddenly strikes me that this may be the answer to my otherwise perfectly seasoned curries tasting too salty next day when cold.
It might be time for a little experimentation as I think more MSG and far less salt might overcome this problem - and perhaps take me one step closer to the curies of old!
Reply by chinois:
I haven't played with MSG for years, other than when it's combined with things like All Purpose Seasoning. The thought suddenly strikes me that this may be the answer to my otherwise perfectly seasoned curries tasting too salty next day when cold.
Worth a shot, after all the word 'savoury' is the predominant description that comes from people talking about those curries.
I stopped using it bcos i couldnt tell much difference, only to find that i'd been using too little. I used triple the amount one day (cooking chinese food) and i realized what the point was. It did make it a lot tastier. I havent tried it again on curry.
Try using about 1tsp in a portion. In a kitchen in udaipur where the food was BIR-like they added it pretty early, with the spices and methi i think. Anyone else know if this is normal?
Also remember that using a bit of lemon balances the savoury and salty tastes, making everything taste more.
Reply by joshallen2k:
ry using about 1tsp in a portion. In a kitchen in udaipur where the food was BIR-like they added it pretty early, with the spices and methi i think.
I've been playing with MSG lately. Certainly not a whole teaspoon, but I have no issues giving that a try to see if I can find a more pronounced effect.
As for "when", it is interesting that the BIR you saw put it in at the spice stage. The recipes I've seen with MSG (particularly Chinese, like the fried rice recipe on this site) mostly add it right at the end, so that's what I've been doing in my curry trials.
I will try upping the amount and adding with the spices to see if the difference is a step forward or back...
Reply by chinois:
ry using about 1tsp in a portion. In a kitchen in udaipur where the food was BIR-like they added it pretty early, with the spices and methi i think.
I've been playing with MSG lately. Certainly not a whole teaspoon, but I have no issues giving that a try to see if I can find a more pronounced effect.
As for "when", it is interesting that the BIR you saw put it in at the spice stage. The recipes I've seen with MSG (particularly Chinese, like the fried rice recipe on this site) mostly add it right at the end, so that's what I've been doing in my curry trials.
I will try upping the amount and adding with the spices to see if the difference is a step forward or back...
Same here really. Any recipe i've seen for chinese adds it at the end. Maybe this could just be a habit people got into, like we did with salt. Chefs will tell to cook with the salt, not just dump it on at the end. The bangladeshi chef in hampshire who gave me a demo added his salt with the spices and methi.
Could be similar with MSG?
Heston Blumenthal talks about how savoury(or umami) tastes multiply when combined, which isnt the same with sour or sweet food. The reason why beef or lamb works best with black bean sauce or oyster sauce is bcos they are all savoury. This is why MSG works best with these dishes rather than, say, lemon chicken.
So MSG should reinforce the taste of a curry, if yours is nicely savoury already. Especially with lamb.
Reply by secret santa:
I got a bag of MSG the other day so there'll be some experimenting soon.
With regard to when it should be added, there's one thing to bear in mind. Apparently if MSG is cooked at high temperatures for extended time it turns into a poison! There was a very good article which, as usual, I can't find now, that gave the chemistry involved in the reaction.
So, I reckon you wouldn't want to add it at the spice stage where the temp is high. You'd more likely want to always add it at the end just before serving, which seems to be what the Chinese do.
Reply by artistpaul:
I got a bag of MSG the other day so there'll be some experimenting soon.
With regard to when it should be added, there's one thing to bear in mind. Apparently if MSG is cooked at high temperatures for extended time it turns into a poison! There was a very good article which, as usual, I can't find now, that gave the chemistry involved in the reaction.
So, I reckon you wouldn't want to add it at the spice stage where the temp is high. You'd more likely want to always add it at the end just before serving, which seems to be what the Chinese do.
Totally agree Secret Santa
Never fry it!
I use it after the base has gone in.
The Chinese are the masters when it comes to MSG and they add it near the end too.
I find a large pinch per person elevates the dish
Reply by PaulP:
I must admit I've never tried MSG in my curries but use it all the time in my Chinese style chicken fried rice.
I agree it's probably safer to add near the end of cooking.
Reply by joshallen2k:
Thanks SS for the tip on it turning to poison under high heat. I think I will skip the "fry with spices" idea. Seems inconsistent with every usage of MSG I've ever seen.
Apparently MSG is making a comeback: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/03/health/main5131323.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/03/health/main5131323.shtml)
Maybe others are seeking to make the 70's/80's curries ;D
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I always use it
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I made a Madras tonight, using the reduction method, adding a tsp of MSG, and a tbsp of bunjara. It was absolutely superb.
My problem is that I have nothing to compare it to, other than memories of BIR Madras.
I do know that if I was served this in a restaurant, I would be thrilled.
I think the MSG improved the dish.
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josh,
i've been undecided on this and had just parked it. given what u say i think i'll have to try it again on the next base.
last time i tried it - it did sort of "elevate" the dish as Secret Santa says.
given how crucial salt is and the suggestion that u might be able to balance it more healthily with MSG is also another plus.
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Hmm. This is interesting. I've avoided MSG as too much keeps me awake at night (L-glutamate is the main excitatory amino acid neurotransmitter in the human brain). Some TAs I know over do it for sure, particularly noticable in the vegetable dishes. But it is an remarkable flavour enhancer. Most of the Asian shops stock it. Reckon I'll give it a go. Tip of the tsp to start with. :)
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Well there's a blast from the past. I notice my original post was from January 2010 and guess what, I've still got most of the original bag of MSG in my 'don't throw away - might use one day' box. That pretty much says how effective I found adding MSG.
I still think its effect is person dependent because no matter how much I use or in what dish, curry or Chinese, it seems to make no difference to the taste - but does give me a raging thirst.
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Hmm. This is interesting. I've avoided MSG as too much keeps me awake at night (L-glutamate is the main excitatory amino acid neurotransmitter in the human brain). Some TAs I know over do it for sure, particularly noticable in the vegetable dishes. But it is an remarkable flavour enhancer. Most of the Asian shops stock it. Reckon I'll give it a go. Tip of the tsp to start with. :)
There's a more fashionable alternative available now : Umami. Never used it myself, nor have I ever used MSG in a BIR-style dish (although I use it without fail in fried rice), but it may be worth a try ...
** Phil.
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Hmm. This is interesting. I've avoided MSG as too much keeps me awake at night (L-glutamate is the main excitatory amino acid neurotransmitter in the human brain). Some TAs I know over do it for sure, particularly noticable in the vegetable dishes. But it is an remarkable flavour enhancer. Most of the Asian shops stock it. Reckon I'll give it a go. Tip of the tsp to start with. :)
There's a more fashionable alternative available now : Umami. Never used it myself, nor have I ever used MSG in a BIR-style dish (although I use it without fail in fried rice), but it may be worth a try ...
** Phil.
Or just make your own:
Ingredients
Tomato Puree, Garlic, Anchovy Paste (Anchovies, Salt, Sunflower Oil), Black Olive, Balsamic Vinegar, Porcini Mushrooms, Parmesan Cheese, Olive Oil, Vinegar, Sugar, Salt, Citric Acid
It's just a concoction of all the most naturally glutamate-laden products.
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Or just make your own: Ingredients -- Tomato Puree, Garlic, Anchovy Paste (Anchovies, Salt, Sunflower Oil), Black Olive, Balsamic Vinegar, Porcini Mushrooms, Parmesan Cheese, Olive Oil, Vinegar, Sugar, Salt, Citric Acid. It's just a concoction of all the most naturally glutamate-laden products.
Just as a BIR curry is "just a concoction" of the various spices, vegetables, oils, etc., that all of us have in our arsenal; but we are still striving to re-create the BIR flavour, and if we were to divert our attention away from that to trying to re-create the Umami flavour, we might never get back to the real task at hand !
** Phil.
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Or just make your own: Ingredients -- Tomato Puree, Garlic, Anchovy Paste (Anchovies, Salt, Sunflower Oil), Black Olive, Balsamic Vinegar, Porcini Mushrooms, Parmesan Cheese, Olive Oil, Vinegar, Sugar, Salt, Citric Acid. It's just a concoction of all the most naturally glutamate-laden products.
Just as a BIR curry is "just a concoction" of the various spices, vegetables, oils, etc., that all of us have in our arsenal; but we are still striving to re-create the BIR flavour, and if we were to divert our attention away from that to trying to re-create the Umami flavour, we might never get back to the real task at hand !
** Phil.
I was just offering it as information Phil. Of course, if keeping to the task at hand is foremost then one could argue that suggesting the use of an ingredient that almost certainly has never seen the inside of any BIR establishment, is rather counter to that goal. ::)
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I was just offering it as information Phil.
I know : I was just trying to point out that /everything/ is "a concoction" of something, and that there are times when it is better to buy a concoction than to attempt to replicate one.
Of course, if keeping to the task at hand is foremost then one could argue that suggesting the use of an ingredient that almost certainly has never seen the inside of any BIR establishment, is rather counter to that goal. ::)
I agree : but as the issue of MSG had reared its head, it seemed only helpful to point out that there were alternatives that one might consider. My wife, for example (75% Chinese, 25% Vietnamese) never uses MSG per se, but uses great quantities of (catering) Knorr Chicken Stock powder and thereby adds the necessary MSG content that way ...
** Phil.
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I've never had the fortune to take a good look around a BIR kitchen, but that said I would be surprised if MSG was used explicitly in BIR food across the board. I've never quite had the same raging thirst after a BIR meal that I normally do after a Chinese meal/TA. That said I have seen MSG as an ingredient on some all-purpose seasoning mixes so perhaps small quantities are introduced this way?
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As others have pointed out: MSG is actually in many instant stocks and other sauce mixes. So, you might be using MSG without knowing it.
Also, mono-sodium glutamate comes naturally in tons of food (such as Bovril and Marmite, for example). Since MSG is closely connected to the "Umami" taste I was always under the impression that you actually NEED msg (be it naturally obtained or via explicitly adding it) in Chinese cuisine in order for things to taste "authentic".
Now, whether MSG gets deliberately used in BIR curries I have no idea - I suspect other (indirect) sources of MSG, for sure, even though I can't find classic MSG sources (such as Worcestershire sauce) in any of the recipes.
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MSG isn't used in powder form in BIR to my knowledge.
Wasn't aware Worcestershire Sauce contained MSG, naturally or otherwise.
Worcestershire Sauce is used in old School recipes, like my Madras and Dhansak
I class MSG as Chinese Salt and use it occasionally like a salt, mainly in my special rice dishes, the same way I use Black Salt and Himalayan Salt, sparingly.
cheers Chewy
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Worcestershire Sauce is used in old School recipes, like my Madras and Dhansak
We must have gone to different schools. ;D
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Worcestershire Sauce is used in old School recipes, like my Madras and Dhansak
We must have gone to different schools. ;D
Interestingly (or not, depending on your viewpoint), Worcestershire Sauce is also found in recipes for traditional Indian food. (You'll find it mentioned several times in 'Prashad - Cooking With Indian Masters').
As some of the ingredients for Worcestershire Sauce came from India (Lea and Perrins dates back to 1838), and we no doubt sent it over there during the days of the British Raj, I guess that's where its use in Indian cuisine originated - and continues to this day.
As indeed it should.
Bloody good show, I say!
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Ripped out of context from another site:
"Glutamate and Glutamic acid are naturally occurring amino acids present in a large range of foods. It is free Glutamate that provides the unami taste.
They are most concentrated in sharp cheeses (like Parmesan), yeast and yeast extracts, anchovies, fermented fish sauce (and hence Worcestershire sauce), fermented bean products (hence soy sauce), sea-weed/vegetables and savory mushrooms (like Shiitaki). Tomatoes also contain reasonable amounts, which in the quantities of a tomato sauce, have a strong unami taste."
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Yes, you definitely didn't go to my BIR school SS.
But stick around, It may not be too late for you to learn the ropes ;D
SC
No escaping Glutamate then?. :P
Unami is what the old western folk call more-ish, me thinks.
You never know, Patak's might bring out a new Unami Paste :P
cheers Chewy
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As some of the ingredients for Worcestershire Sauce came from India (Lea and Perrins dates back to 1838), and we no doubt sent it over there during the days of the British Raj, I guess that's where its use in Indian cuisine originated - and continues to this day
If I recall correctly, I think Worcester Sauce was actually originally invented/discovered/created in India (by Lea and Perrins), during the Raj, and the recipe was brought back to England (by one or the other of them) for manufacture. I recall reading (on their website, I think) that the original mixture was left and subsequently found fermenting, in a barrel, somewhere, in India.
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i use MSG in my curries it dose make a difference a good pinch right at the end, talking about making you thirsty pizza from my local TA wakes me up at night or is that garlic salt.
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I might try a sprinkle. I bought a 500g bag of MSG from a Chinese shop about 6 years ago and put it in a jar, still going strong. Now it lives on the very top shelf of the pantry with a skull and crossbones design drawn on it following an unfortunate incident a few years ago.
Daughter in law made herself a coffee and put in two spoons of this sugary looking substance she found in the cupboard. I can still remember the yell of horror ;D ;D
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Sounds like a silly question, but has anyone noticed any connection between consuming MSG and getting hiccups the subsequent day? I've always seen a correlation in myself between hiccuping and consuming Chinese takeaway the night before. This could be just a quirk of my physiology of course but a quick google revealed others asking the same question so maybe there's anecdotal evidence of a slight link. Would be good if you MSG experimenters could keep half an eye on this issue or at least be aware of the possibility of hiccups and report back?
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my header refers to the members who have posted their recipes & tips
i cant find the original thread but the other day someone suggested using CHALICE CURRY OIL from aldi available in hot or mild also available form some asdas
i used chewy tikkas base IFINDFORU`S spice mix with julpar garam masala about 100 ml Of chalice hot curry oil as it has been suggested i used powdered fenugreek & a large pinch of MSG right at the end the sauce i haven't made any chiken yet though the sauce is exactly the same as a madras available from the amonbagh take away in preston
to make it put 100mils of chalice hot curry oil in the sauce pan
add two finely diced onions mine were from lidl then at this point i added ginger/garlic with the addition of two heaped tsp of minced green chili fry slowly on a low light for a half an hour till nearly dissolved & sweet
then follow chewytikkas recipe but with the addition of heaped 1 tsp of ground fenugreek don't forget to omit the ginger/garlic as it has already been added
thanks guys the credits all on you.
add a large pinch of MSG right at the end ;D
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Chalice oil, let me see ??? ??? ::) must be Bob, 976 bar. He buys it by the lorry load ;D Sound like you've got a bunjarra thing going on there with the onions, garlic/ginger chillis etc DC ;) Good choice of base and spice mix (suggest you try IFFU's pre-cooked chicken as well) and CT's madras recipe is lovely and tasty. As for the fenugreek powder, i've not added it to a curry only as part of the spice mix. Nor have i used msg in BIR. But i won't knock it till i've tried it. If it's that close to your locals, congratulations. That's what this site is all about. Enjoy everything else this great site has to offer thanks to the efforts of its members, past, present and hopefully future :)
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i used powdered fenugreek...add two finely diced onions
Is that ground fenugreek seeds or powdered methi (dry leaves)?
And two whole onions per serving?! :o Are you sure?
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my header refers to the members who have posted their recipes & tips
i cant find the original thread but the other day someone suggested using CHALICE CURRY OIL from aldi available in hot or mild also available form some asdas
i used chewy tikkas base IFINDFORU`S spice mix with julpar garam masala about 100 ml Of chalice hot curry oil as it has been suggested i used powdered fenugreek & a large pinch of MSG right at the end the sauce i haven't made any chiken yet though the sauce is exactly the same as a madras available from the amonbagh take away in preston
to make it put 100mils of chalice hot curry oil in the sauce pan
add two finely diced onions mine were from lidl then at this point i added ginger/garlic with the addition of two heaped tsp of minced green chili fry slowly on a low light for a half an hour till nearly dissolved & sweet
then follow chewytikkas recipe but with the addition of heaped 1 tsp of ground fenugreek don't forget to omit the ginger/garlic as it has already been added
thanks guys the credits all on you.
add a large pinch of MSG right at the end ;D
The Chalice Oil was my find, but alas have not seen or used it since :(
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i used 600ml of CT`S base 2 heaped tsp of IFFU`S mix & 2 onions about 0.70mm diameter & just powdered fenugreek from the Asian shop I think it was eastend it would probably feed three people or one of my mates
i thought the oil was available @ASDA don't say i`I've found the holy grail but lost the ingredients i only have the one 250ml bottle
i read a few years back that the spiced oil to start a gravy was called a rogan is that the like the surplus oil on a roganjosh heavily laced with spices/tomatoes etc.
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The Chalice Oil was my find, but alas have not seen or used it since :(
Managed to find the Chalice Oil at an Asda Hypermarket the other day Bob. Think Ill stock up if its starting to be in short supply.
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just one thing this sauce is best made fresh i ate it immediately & it had a depth of flavors with that TA savory hit i then cooked raw chicken in it & the flavour was flat & had definitely lost something i`ll use precooked in future.
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I'm going to try 0.5 tsp in my next curry just to see ... I made a family favourite chicken chow mein the other day and added MSG for the first time and everybody commented on how similar it was to the T/A .. that was the only change I made to my usual recipe.