Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Kashmiri Bob on November 17, 2021, 07:48 PM
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Base gravy
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFk6oYWeH7Q&ab_channel=ChefDin
Pre-cooked veg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xSwUxeamj0&ab_channel=ChefDin
Pre-cooked meat
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpY06tFSiy4&t=335s&ab_channel=ChefDin
Chicken Vindaloo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5z17qrWIs8&ab_channel=ChefDin
Looking forward to testing these out. More to follow apparently, including Masala, Korma, Rogon, Meat and Saag, and Ceylon.
Rob
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I've made half quantity of base gravy using 9 chicken drumsticks. These were deep fried and served for dinner with chips, gravy and steamed vegetables. Very tasty.
Looking forward to a couple of curries tonight. The gravy is quite tasty as chef says.
I subscribed to Chef Din's channel a few months ago and I like the content. I think I'll give the Beef Madras a go.
Edit: Well I've just watched chef's Beef Madras video and found that it is a single pot cook and not the BIR style so I'll have to nut it out for myself how to do it with the Base Gravy and pre-cooked beef.
Another thought has occurred to me as well. I would imagine that as chef pre-cooks his chicken in the process of making base gravy, there should be no problem with using base gravy to pre-cook chicken. This is a process I've used in the past so it will suffice again today.
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Chef Din has just posted his Chicken Kurma (Korma) video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRZT0M4NTW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRZT0M4NTW4)
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Livo - I doubt if you will be trying Chef Din's korma recipe, will you? It is quite like Ghanna's recipe, by including evaporated milk. I remember you didn't like it at all.
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Correct George. I'd already come to that.
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I suppose evaporated milk was a bit of a staple of the 70s though... :wink:
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Evaporated milk isn't a problem, although I'm not a fan of it. The problem is that BIR Korma (most that are like this one) that I've tried are just not to my liking. I love other Korma dishes but just not the yellow Curry Kid style BIR Chicken Korma.
Having now tried Chef Din's base gravy and pre-cookwd chicken, it is quite possible that his version of the BIR Korma will be OK. I'll give it a try to satisfy my own curiosity.
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Did you hear Chef Dins comments on caramalisation?
He's an experienced chef and it just blows all the "adding a little base at a time and reducing it" out of the water
No roasting the spices or "caramalising" the base
That all came from Julian and Adey Payne didn't it?
In fact
he doesn't even add mix spice to a vindaloo
His recipes are a real eye opener
But I guess this is 1970s cooking
I definitely will be trying a few of his recipes
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His recipes are a real eye opener
I definitely will be trying a few of his recipes
I agree. Chef Din's channel has become one of the front runners for me. As for Al's Kitchen and Misty Ricardo, I regard them as having no more to offer than Pat Chapman did in the 1980s and for a few years afterwards - just a money making venture.
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In fact, [Chef Din] he doesn't even add mix spice to a vindaloo.
Agreed, but then in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5z17qrWIs8) he doesn't add the methi leaves or the fresh coriander that he lists at the beginning — the ingredients list that appears at 00:42 is significantly different from (shorter than) the one which appears at 00:14. And the sound-track finishes at around 70% of the way through the video, although there is some quiet background commentary after that. All rather odd ...
On a more positive note, his chicken bhuna video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nmHhatB5nk) does appear to yield a chicken bhuna that looks far closer to a 1970's bhuna than I have seen for a very very long time. Worth noting, perhaps, that the bhuna onions called for by his video do not have a video in their own right — they are subsumed within "How to Prep for Restaurant Style Curries( BIR) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae6_GhPc3A8)".
P.S. Another important recipe — the pre-cooked chicken (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgREJ6JeEVo).
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** Phil.
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Agreed, but then in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5z17qrWIs8) he doesn't add the methi leaves or the fresh coriander that he lists at the beginning — the ingredients list that appears at 00:42 is significantly different from (shorter than) the one which appears at 00:14. And the sound-track finishes at around 70% of the way through the video, although there is some quiet background commentary after that. All rather odd ...
Which video did you watch Phil? He does add both fresh coriander and methi leaf.
The ingredient list at the beginning of the video is the complete list. He then lists the ingredients in smaller listings as he progresses through the cook. It's all there.
His videos are voiced over, post recording, and are often a mix of real-time recorded sound and voice over. I see no problem with this format.
What I did find interesting was the use of a piece of potato as the defining ingredient in a Vindaloo. I've come across this before. This must be a BIR thing and I have read the discussion about "aloo" meaning potato. The historical origins of the recipe appear to discount this and a proper vinha d'alhos is meat marinated in vinegar and garlic, and being a medium spiced dish. I have prepared traditional Pork Vindaloo and it does not have a potato in the ingredient list.
I can't comment on the Bhuna video as I haven't watched it yet.
P.S. Another important recipe — the pre-cooked chicken (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgREJ6JeEVo).
After having both watched the video and prepared the Base Gravy and pre-cooked chicken together in the 1970's style, I would suggest that this pre-cooked chicken video is just a modification of the complete all-in-one process. The ingredients are pretty much the same but with much less onion. I have done and recommend just cooking chicken in a dilution of base gravy. Totally satisfactory results and a lot less waste of spices and onion.
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Did you hear Chef Dins comments on caramalisation?
Which video is that in Pete?
In my recent cook using his methods and recipes (or my variations of), I did not achieve any significant caramelisation of the gravy, often referred to, and the dishes were fine.
Edit: I just read this in the comments of the Ceylon Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgk70EIUAk&t=10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgk70EIUAk&t=10s)
Regarding the Caramelisation , have you watched my video making the curries? All I’m doing letting the gravy thicken up , then it’s done! So I’m not sure where this caramelisation comes from the first time I heard of it was in YouTube!
Isn’t caramelisation something to do with sugar? Sometimes people say things that have no meaning , because they don’t really know what they are doing , and then people believe, and I think that’s what has happened here! If you watch my video, this is how it’s done in a commercial indian kitchen ! I hope that’s answered your question!
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Which video did you watch Phil? He does add both fresh coriander and methi leaf. The ingredient list at the beginning of the video is the complete list. He then lists the ingredients in smaller listings as he progresses through the cook. It's all there.
The one to which I linked, Livo, but on re-watching I see that you are completely correct (I would expect no less !). Mea culpa.
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** Phil.
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I just read this in the comments of the Ceylon Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgk70EIUAk&t=10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgk70EIUAk&t=10s)
Regarding the Caramelisation , have you watched my video making the curries? All I’m doing letting the gravy thicken up , then it’s done! So I’m not sure where this caramelisation comes from the first time I heard of it was in YouTube!
Isn’t caramelisation something to do with sugar? Sometimes people say things that have no meaning , because they don’t really know what they are doing , and then people believe, and I think that’s what has happened here! If you watch my video, this is how it’s done in a commercial indian kitchen ! I hope that’s answered your question!
I think that Chef Din's comment reflects the difference between a true BIR chef and the majority of wannabees — Chef Din clearly knows little about food science (e.g., the fact that onions contain sugars, which they release during the cooking process) but a great deal about BIR methodology, and can cook a perfectly good (probably first-class) curry despite this lack of scientific background. Wannabees also know little or nothing about food science, but they have picked up by osmosis, as it were, the fact that caramelisation takes place (as does the [in]famous Maillard reaction) even when no sugar has been explicitly added to a dish, given the right circumstances, and trot out this fact whenever the subject arises so as to appear more knowledgeable than they really are. See https://blog.memeinge.com/fun-fact-friday-caramelizing-onions/ (also below) for more. My EUR 0,02 (roughly AUD 0.031233192).
What is caramelisation?
Caramelisation is the process of browning that happens when sugar is heated. That's a very general statement, so let's get specific about caramelisation of onions.
Caramelisation of onions is the pyrolysis of sugar, which is a non-enzymatic browning reaction. What that means is that it's not a browning because the food enzymes react with oxygen (generally the air). Think about when you cut an apple and it turns brown shortly thereafter; that's enzymatic browning.
When you cut an onion it stays the same colour and only changes color when heat is applied, so it's a non-enzymatic reaction.
Pyrolysis is a chemical change that is caused by the presence of heat. This is the reaction that takes place to cause the caramelisation of onions. Pyrolysis involves a chemical and physical change; in the case of the onion
- the chemical structure of the onion is changed by breaking down the larger starch and sugar molecules in the onion
- the physical structure is changed from a yellow-white colour to a caramel-brown colour
Breakdown of the onions
From crispy & pungent, to soft & sweet ...
First, the onions are sliced then added to a hot pan. The heat causes the water in the onions to evaporate, which is why they start "sweating."
Onions are about 89% water, so they have lots of sweating to do — lots of water that will be released because they are being heated. The release of the water causes a breakdown in the structure of the onions, which is why they start softening. However, at this point, the onions are still heating up. They aren't hot enough yet to start the pyrolysis — which happens above 212°F.
Once the onions have reached the temperature where pyrolysis starts to happen, they start their browning. And this is where the magic happens. It's also where you need to make sure not to let the onions burn. Basically, just stir them every 5-10 minutes. I find that I could go longer intervals in the beginning and then as it got closer to the end, I needed to keep a more watchful eye on my beloved caramelised treasures.
During the caramelisation time, the larger sugar molecules in onions are broken down into smaller, simple sugar molecules. This is why caramelised onions have a sweeter taste than their raw counterparts. Your tastebuds don't register the large sugar molecules; they acknowledge the simple sugar molecules (not to be confused with "simple sugars" such as granulated sugar ["gran"]).
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** Phil.
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Did you hear Chef Dins comments on caramalisation?
He's an experienced chef and it just blows all the "adding a little base at a time and reducing it" out of the water
No roasting the spices or "caramalising" the base
That all came from Julian and Adey Payne didn't it?
In fact
he doesn't even add mix spice to a vindaloo
His recipes are a real eye opener
But I guess this is 1970s cooking
I definitely will be trying a few of his recipes
Hi Pete
Its good to see you're back
Look forward to reading your reports on Chef Dins recipes
Kind Regards
Mick
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It's interesting to note how much emphasis in flavour terms Chef Din places on his gravy;almost to the point that you could just put some of his gravy in a pan with some chicken and you've already got yourself a chicken curry.The popular notion that the base gravy should be neutral, or even blandish is not something that Chef Din employs, totally the opposite in fact.
I've had a few samples of genuine BIR gravy over the years that have been packed with flavour, maybe this is the difference between an average curry house and an exeptional one.I'm certainly looking forward to giving his gravy and some of his recipes a go.His gravy certainly looks the part from what I've seen on his videos, especially the oilly film on the top-good to see he spoons the excess oil off to start his curries (the 'magic' spiced oil?).
As far as the solitary potato in the vindaloo, I don't think this has much to do with the 'vin' (vinegar) and 'aloo' (potato), rather it was a device invented so that a busy waiter could work out what dishes were what on his trolly.I guess a madras and a vindaloo look pretty similar so a potato sitting in the dish would help him sort things out.
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I can see how the potato would help in that way.
You won't be disappointed in the gravy. It isn't quite a curry by itself but it is more flavoured than others.
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You won't be disappointed in the gravy. It isn't quite a curry by itself but it is more flavoured than others.
Well, yes and no.
Having today made the gravy and his vindaloo these are my thoughts.
The gravy, and we can indeed call this one an actual gravy as it has meat juices in it from the chicken, is very tasty. I shuddered at the amount of salt being added but it seems just about right in the finished article and of course he doesn't add salt to the curries. So just judging the gravy on its own merits it gets a definite thumbs up.
The vindaloo though had a definite gelatinous taste/feel to it from having the chicken cooked in the base with the skin on. And the chicken was very bland in the curry, almost tasteless. On its own the chicken tastes nice but I'd be putting it in a sandwich or, as Chef Din suggests, making fried chicken with it. I really think cooking the chicken in the base gravy like this is less about flavouring the gravy and more about cooking chicken in an easy way for use in the curries, but it doesn't work as curry meat.
For me the vindaloo was just ok and didn't seem to offer the quality the base sauce should have brought to it. The lemon added a hint of tartness but is not something I want in a vindaloo. And what are the tiny pieces of green pepper for? To make the sauce look more interesting?
If I were doing this again I'd skin the chicken before adding to the base gravy to cook to avoid the gelatinous effect. So, yes, it's an acceptable takeaway curry but nothing to write home about. And, ultimately, it's nothing we haven't seen before on the forum.
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As far as the solitary potato in the vindaloo, I don't think this has much to do with the 'vin' (vinegar) and 'aloo' (potato), rather it was a device invented so that a busy waiter could work out what dishes were what on his trolly.I guess a madras and a vindaloo look pretty similar so a potato sitting in the dish would help him sort things out.
Exactly so. In some places I used to eat in the only way to tell the difference between the madras and vindaloo without tasting was to find the one with the potato in it.
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It's interesting to note how much emphasis in flavour terms Chef Din places on his gravy;almost to the point that you could just put some of his gravy in a pan with some chicken and you've already got yourself a chicken curry.The popular notion that the base gravy should be neutral, or even blandish is not something that Chef Din employs, totally the opposite in fact.
I think there are two broad schools of thought. One where the gravy is packed with flavour and the curry essentially is the base sauce with added meat, veg etc. And then there's the neutral base where the flavour is crafted at the curry making stage by using varied spicing etc. It seems to me the second option will provide a more varied taste experience whereas the former allows curries to be made quicker.
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I didn't experience the gelatinous feel in my curries but I used only drumsticks in the preparation of the gravy so this may have been the contributing factor there.
Chicken and flavoursome gravy is not new. Chewy Tikka wrote about it quite a while ago and I made a gravy with the addition of chicken frames back then, which I enjoyed. I can't remember whether it was a JB or a CT gravy but it was definitely different. The downside of a strongly flavoured / spiced gravy is that it is likely, or possible, that your different curry dishes will be "similar". My daughter said both my Beef Madras and Beef RJ tasted the same. I don't think they did but there was a similarity as you'd expect.
If you do fry your gravy chicken, as I did, don't expect KFC or a Southern Fried Chicken, because it isn't. It produces an unusual but enjoyable fried chicken that has definite Indian flavours.
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I didn't experience the gelatinous feel in my curries but I used only drumsticks in the preparation of the gravy so this may have been the contributing factor there.
Did you leave the skin on them?
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Yes, but the skin on a few drumsticks, with predominately large bone, is possibly less likely to produce the same amount of gelatinous material as throwing whole chicken carcasses into the mix.
I would have thought that this material would have been scooped out in the removal of the excess (spiced) oil. I also allowed my oil to sit in the fridge for 24 hours in a jar and removed the top scum before cooking my dishes, so maybe that's the difference. There was also material that settled beneath the oil, which I didn't use.
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Its great to see some quality discussion on the forum again. Long overdue :like: :like:
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I tried the base-gravy cooked-chicken deep fried like Chef Din recommended. Wasn't impressed. The flavouring is too mild to be of much consequence and the nice, crispy blistered-skin you get from normal deep frying a quarter of chicken isn't there because the skin has been boiled and rendered in the gravy. He reckons it's much better than normal fried chicken. I disagree.
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I confess, I don't really know what "normal fried chicken" is. Kentucky Fried Chicken, yes (wonderful, IMHO, or at least it can be from the better franchisees) but what exactly is "normal fried chicken" ?
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** Phil.
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... what exactly is "normal fried chicken" ?
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** Phil.
I mean like you get from the chippy. They just deep fry a quarter of chicken so the skin crisps up nicely and you get that umami hit.
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Its great to see some quality discussion on the forum again. Long overdue :like: :like:
We just need topics to bounce off. Chef Din's base and curries aren't exactly anything new but there's the cooking the chicken in the base which is enough to get a conversation going.
The sad fact is we've just about done to death every BIR topic imaginable and I think that accounts for at least 95% of the reason for the dearth of posts on the forum
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... what exactly is "normal fried chicken" ?
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** Phil.
I mean like you get from the chippy. They just deep fry a quarter of chicken so the skin crisps up nicely and you get that umami hit.
Ah, fair enough. I don't think I've ever ordered one, whence my puzzlement. Perhaps I should !
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** Phil.
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I'd written the same comment in my previous post mickdabass, but second thought and removed it. I agree. However, I also agree with SS. I've seen other forums suffer the same fate. The recent growth of BIR Chef content on YouTube is great and has given us material to use, try and discuss, but it is also direct competition to forums like this one.
Santa, your description of the fried chicken is accurate. It just didn't really tick any boxes. Sort of mild Indian flavour which was out of place in a normal chicken gravy. It was OK and I enjoyed it, but a bit less than hoped for. I won't do it again. If I do cook in the gravy again the chicken will be used in curry.
I feel that it isn't really necessary to cook whole or even portion chicken in the gravy. Frames, bones or even a good chicken stock or broth would suffice and actually pre-cook chicken instead.
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I made Dins "my base gravy" which he posted before the 1970's base gravy. I've got loads in my freezer along with the salvaged savoury oil. So I was't going to make another of his bases, before using that. To be honest, both recipes are very similar, except the 70's style gravy pre cooks the chicken in it whereas his first base has chicken carcass boiled in it's added stock . So.....I made the vindaloo. It's a good recipe. I think the worcester sauce adds a little magic. Curry Queen had a few recipes using that way back!! So I feel almost like I've gone full circle. The curry was pretty oily too. My wife loved it, but I didn't feel it was a "wow" moment. Just a reasonable curry. I really liked the simplicity of the recipe and I'll be trying a few more curries from Din. He clearly knows his stuff. I had a bought frozen curry at the same time as this vindaloo. Hate to say it, but I preferred the bought curry (it was a Rogan Josh). Better aroma and deeper flavour
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Will be spending some time over Christmas trying out some of chef Din's recipes. Also interesting is his preference of a stainless steel pan over aluminium.
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Also interesting is his preference of a stainless steel pan over aluminium.
I think Chef Din is a mine of information but I will not be taking his advice on pans. I am quite sure stainless steel is the worst possible material for a frying pan. It has too many hot spots, rather than the good conduction of aluminium or carbon steel. Tri-ply pans are also good with layering between stainless, aluminium and sometimes copper.
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I've just watched his Vegetable Madras recipe.
Once again it's very clear, simple yet very informative
But can't help noticing that its almost the exact recipe as his vindaloo recipe
I must admit I thought that most of my 70's and early 80's bought curries tasted pretty much the same (and I loved them)
Except for a chilli difference or maybe fried garlic poured on top
So I reckon his recipes are pretty spot on
I'm really enjoying his videos
Wish I'd seen these 20 years ago
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I tried Din's mushroom bhajee (sic) today. I had to pre-prep the bhuna onions, which was easy, as was the cooking of the bhaji itself.
Again, it was a decent enough meal (I had it as a main with rice), but still low-end takeaway in my opinion. I thought the bhuna onion which, by the way, is really tasty on its own, would have lifted it to a new level but no, not really.
Strangely, and I find this with a lot of dishes, adding the base gravy actually makes the flavour worse (having tasted before its addition). Great tasting base, great tasting bhuna onions, but there seems to be some strange negative synergy going on. Shrug.
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Yes , I know what you mean. The curries are ok but somehow you've not got exactly what you want. And totally agree that the sum is less than the parts. All the same his recipes are very comprehensive and complete and I'm really enjoying them.
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SS I know what you mean about this negative synergy thing.
For the last year or so I have been using BE's Base gravy - mainly with Chef Syeds recipes which imo have been well matched. I couldnt get on with Syeds gravy for one reason or another
I tried Chef Dins 70s base over the weekend and I still cant understand why the resultant currys cooked were neither over spiced or over salted. Perhaps Im losing my sense of taste I dont know. In the past I have tried akhni stock but have found it overpowers the resultant curries but in Chef Dins base I am not even aware of it being present. To be fair I did deviate from his recipe slightly as I bought one whole chicken from asda and used that for the gravy - after i had de breasted it.
After all these years of cooking curries I sometimes feel like Ive learnt very little. Totally confused now.
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Yes , I know what you mean. The curries are ok but somehow you've not got exactly what you want. And totally agree that the sum is less than the parts. All the same his recipes are very comprehensive and complete and I'm really enjoying them.
I'm not sure what you mean. You say they're not what you want but then you say you're really enjoying them. Please clarify.
I think Secret Santa's use of the term 'low end takeaway' is useful, to distinguish from food which may be amongst the best you've ever had. I am only interested in preparing dishes with flavours which are about as good as it gets. As I've said before, I achieved it for only a few dishes, for my taste. That's because I only worked on a few dishes and haven't yet spent enough time with "R&D" on other dishes.
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I'm not sure what you mean. You say they're not what you want but then you say you're really enjoying them. Please clarify.
Hiya George
I accept the fact that a restaurant/takeaway can get a better result than I do
And Din is showing exactly how he prepared all his curries for years
And I really find that fascinating
I have never understood why my home cooked versions often fall a little short
The funny thing is that I have been allowed on several occasions to cook my own curry in a takeaway
And they turned out perfect
So I know it's not that I lack the cooking skill
It's that something is just a little different when you do it all at home
And I'm not driving myself crazy trying to find the missing ingredient any more
I love the way Din shows the whole method to produce a curry, from start to finish
And there is so much
It's amazing
A 1970's curry encyclopedia
By the way
My wife thinks these curries are far better than any takeaway we use
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Interesting points there Pete. It makes absolutely no sense at all that you can cook dishes in a commercial kitchen and then not be able to replicate at home. Other than the energy output of the burners there should be little to no difference, and if what has been stated recently by actual chefs is anything to go by, this is essentially irrelevant.
Having recently done Chef Din's dishes, I found them quite good. Really good actually. When I went back and tidied up the 2 beef dishes after they'd sat in the fridge for a few days, they were delicious. Syed's were good, Chef Faz is good. The Bengali Chef, Rik (Loveitspicey), et al. I no longer hold a belief or suspicion that there is a mystery secret or missing ingredient. It's all there in plain view.
However, while saying that it makes absolutely no sense, the fact remains that home cooked dishes just seem to be something less than hoped for, with the qualification of saying usually. Occasionally, for whatever reason, it all just happens and you get what you hope for.
I still believe that it is a bit "in the mind" and as the cook we don't always enjoy the meal straight away. Other diners always (usually) enjoy the meals I cook and they never say, "Oh its OK, but not as good as the restaurant". They will tell me if it's too spicy or if I nail a particular dish. As I cook using different bases and pre-cooks over time, my dishes are not consistent. A restaurant / takeaway would have consistency unless they use different chef's or have a change in staff / skill level, etc. I imagine I could get consistency but I'm not really looking for that as I'm not running a business based on returning clientele.
While it is fairly widely accepted that a traditionally prepared curry will improve over a rest period of 24 - 48 hours, this appears to not be the case with Restaurant / Takeaway dishes prepared commercially. Why is it that our BIR method dishes do appear to benefit from the rest? Is it the dish itself or us as the cook? I guess you need 2 cooks to decide by taking turns to be the cook or the diner.
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a small observation on the "restaurant food tastes better" comments:
restaurants use a lot more salt than you think
restaurants use a lot more sugar than you think
restaurants use a lot more fat than you think
because salt, sugar, and fat make everything taste better, because we're programmed to crave them all.
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They'd be hard put to to add more salt, sugar and fat than I do, and I still can't achieve their taste ...
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** Phil.
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They'd be hard put to to add more salt, sugar and fat than I do, and I still can't achieve their taste ...
That's because those ingredients don't contribute to "the taste". Although I do agree all are used to excess in many eateries and not just curry houses.
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I think Secret Santa's use of the term 'low end takeaway' is useful, to distinguish from food which may be amongst the best you've ever had. I am only interested in preparing dishes with flavours which are about as good as it gets.
Don't get me wrong George. Certainly these are not even close to the best curries I've had but they are still decent by today's standards. If you've never done a chicken in base sauce type gravy I would recommend you try Chef Din's although the base of itself is not quite up to being a curry sauce and the vindaloo suffers as a consequence. The madras however, which adds bhuna onions and a smidgen of mix powder and benefits from the added spice from both, is much better.
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a small observation on the "restaurant food tastes better" comments:
restaurants use a lot more salt than you think
restaurants use a lot more sugar than you think
restaurants use a lot more fat than you think
because salt, sugar, and fat make everything taste better, because we're programmed to crave them all.
Hi,
I am not sure about more but maybe more concentrated?
We used to (when I was a child) make family stews... not a lot of meat but lots of vegetables. Each day, servings were taken and the pot would be added to with more vegetables and maybe some meat. I continued this when I left home in my teens as a cheap way of having a meal.
I have had a few attempts recently where I have lost track of time and have left the base on a low heat for extended times, causing it to reduce substantially... but then when cooked with, the oil of the curry has really taken on the flavours, having been much more concentrated and I preferred in my lamb, madras and bhuna dishes. I find it hard to get this flavour into chicken, so again, in the curry sauce that the meat sits in, it works, mostly.
Is it therefore a possibility that takeaways produce the base and that over hours (days or from the increased power of the burners) it reduces and liquid is added for consistency but the flavours are already there from the reduction that we do not get at home from smaller scale production?
BAJ
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Summing up my thoughts:
1) There's much talk about the "missing 5%". There are two senses in which this might be interpreted. First, that something is being purposely withheld from us. Second, that some restaurants use ingredients we may be unaware of. I'm not convinced of the first, and agree with the second. BIR style curries have been discussed among enthusiasts for years, with input from ex BIR chefs, behind the scenes footage, and so on. It seems highly implausible that "the ones in on it" are averting our eyes from "the secret". Plausibility, not possibility, is interesting here. Ingredients, methods, and convictions vary from restaurant to restaurant, still more from region to region, so the suggestion borders on conspiratorial. To the extent it's claimed that the BIR taste is elusive, I just take that to mean a restaurant is using other ingredients or the same ingredients in different proportions or brands. However, I don't take there to be a specific ingredient/set of ingredients known by all good BIR chefs but withheld from us. Any talk of being able to reproduce the taste in a restaurant but not a home setting seems to me an artifact of the mind.
2) I've tried many base gravy recipes. The last base I made contained relatively little oil (120 mL for 2 kg). It was also the first time I made my base using the "add everything to the pot and boil" method. Every other base involved frying onions, garlic and ginger paste, spices, and blended plum tomatoes (or some combination of these). I'm not convinced that frying anything separately makes a difference. Since the non-frying method is easier, healthier, and just as tasty, the amount of oil typically used is superfluous. Re-using oil increases trans fat content, which makes it even more unhealthy.
3) I've tried many pre-cooked chicken recipes. My usual method is this: boil a chicken breast cubed in 500 mL water, one stock cube, and one teaspoon of mix powder. I don't understand the complaint of tough chicken. People warn to cook chicken for 10-15 minutes at most and even to run it under cold water to halt the cooking process. I've never done this. I boil chicken on low heat for 25-30 mins and keep it in the hot water, sometimes for over an hour. It's always tender. I tried Chef Din's pre-cooked chicken recipe. This involves cooking chicken in its own juices without any additional water. The idea is to stir for 10-15 minutes until the juices are released, cook, then let rest. I didn't notice a significant difference, and certainly not one that justifies the additional effort. My brother thought the same.
4) Chef Din's comment about sugar is... something. Someone said earlier in the thread that "wannabes" mention the Maillard reaction to create a pretense of knowledge. That might be true, but it doesn't change that the Maillard reaction actually occurs. In my experience, adding base gravy incrementally actually makes for better curries.
5) On the topic of things that actually work, I notice a difference when using a small amount of very finely chopped onions at the start of savory curries. Before trying this, I used a caramelized onion paste (see: "How to make Onion Paste (a Bunjarra for extra flavour in Curries) by Misty Ricardo.) Chopped onion works just as well, is easier, and more healthy, so I'll continue using that.
All in all, I don't think BIR curry making is as complex as it's made out to be, and that declarations to the contrary may be a case of the sunk-cost fallacy.
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I used a caramelized onion paste (see: "How to make Onion Paste (a Bunjarra for extra flavour in Curries) by Misty Ricardo.)
Misty Ricardo should receive zero credit. The onion paste idea was around for at least 10 years before he appeared, to make money from other peoples' recipes.
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Livo,
I firmly believe that one of the reasons why self cooked curry's don't taste 100% great just after cooking at home is down to our nasal passage being absolutely overwhelmed by all the spices during cooking. Standard kitchen extractors are nothing like a commercial system to suck up the smells from the cookers. I have often found cooking currys outside in the fresh air where I'm not breathing in all the aromas that my curry tastes good straight out of the pan. I also believe that it might also add a little to the reason that the curry may taste better the day after because the nose has had so much time to reset.
Our sense of aroma has so much to do with how we taste things.
I'm betting that some spice fumes from cooking are doing what my mum used to do...pinching my nose shut so I couldn't taste that darn tablespoon of cod liver oil every morning before school!
Ok that stopped when I turned 12. I'm now nearly 42, perhaps I should start taking that stuff again?
Does anyone still do that?
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Misty Ricardo should receive zero credit. The onion paste idea was around for at least 10 years before he appeared, to make money from other peoples' recipes.
Agree 100%
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I firmly believe that one of the reasons why self cooked curry's don't taste 100% great just after cooking at home is down to our nasal passage being absolutely overwhelmed by all the spices during cooking.
You're treading a well trodden path on this forum with that statement. You're right to an extent but when I used to make curries and order curries in at the same time (don't ask) the smell of the delivered curry still hit me full in the face on opening the door to them despite being sensorily overloaded from the cooking process. I wish I knew what their secret was/is. Nowadays the curries just don't have the same powerful aroma, or at least it's very different and not the aroma I associate with the old style curries going back the the eighties. And before you say it I've still got good sense of smell. All other food I cook smells and tastes just like it did going waaaaay back.
One tip to enhance the flavour of the curry if eating just after having cooked it , which I came to realise quite late in my curry cooking experience, is to let the curry cool down before eating it. The difference, to me anyway, is like chalk and cheese, with the cooler version letting all the flavour through.
I'm betting that some spice fumes from cooking are doing what my mum used to do...pinching my nose shut so I couldn't taste that darn tablespoon of cod liver oil every morning before school!
Ok that stopped when I turned 12. I'm now nearly 42, perhaps I should start taking that stuff again?
Does anyone still do that?
I was fortunate to never have had that experience. And I never needed it because we ate simple but varied food that covered all the nutritional bases that are lacking in most diets these days.
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we ate simple but varied food that covered all the nutritional bases that are lacking in most diets these days.
Stewed oxtail with parsley dumplings washed down with Coca-Cola, followed by a couple of bars of caramel Aero, some Bon Maman apricot compote, and finally real coffee with Jersey cream and Demera sugar — what nutritional bases can I have possibly overlooked today ?!
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we ate simple but varied food that covered all the nutritional bases that are lacking in most diets these days.
Stewed oxtail with parsley dumplings washed down with Coca-Cola, followed by a couple of bars of caramel Aero, some Bon Maman apricot compote, and finally real coffee with Jersey cream and Demera sugar — what nutritional bases can I have possibly overlooked today ?!
Seems a shame you had to dilute the health benefits of all that sugar with actual food (the oxtail and dumplings).
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Oh, I'm a great fan of healthy eating, Santa — never fail to augment my basic diet of chocolate and coke with the odd scrap of protein and carbohydrate !
But I have to say, in all seriousness, that I had never really appreciated how good oxtail could be until my wife stewed some recently — my only recollections of it were in the form of Heinz oxtail soup as a child, which I now realise is nothing like the real thing. The parsley dumplings were an extra touch which I added for the first time this evening, and they really went well with it. I also bought some Seville oranges from my local farm shop ("Celtic Produce) yesterday with a view to cooking duckling à l'orange , and probably freezing some for use later in the year. He also sells passion fruit at half the price of Morrisons, and when I bought the last three that were still firm, he threw in for free at least a dozen that had started to break down, but which, when I cut them open at home turned out to be completely edible too, as he had assured me.
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Hi parabolic! While I can and do agree with your comment re smell, I also agree with Santa. Dishes from some restaurants, and probably moreso from the past, are (were) abundantly more aromatic. When I'm cooking curry, I no longer really smell it in the kitchen but my daughter came in the other day and told me she could smell it from her studio down in the shed. The shed is 50 metres from the house.
I've mentioned in the forum previously the restaurant / TA called Raj's Corner in Newcastle (NSW Australia). I visit the optometrist nearby and there is no comparison between my house and this establishment when both are considered for the aroma. The hit of aroma induced appetite from the restaurant is amazing. I usually need to park my car about 500 metres away and if the breeze is from that direction I can smell it at halfway.
While we discuss, consider and dismiss the missing 5% as a fact, a myth or an anomaly, we must still accept the dilemma that it exists. In our minds, our noses or our tastebuds makes no difference.
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While we discuss, consider and dismiss the missing 5% as a fact, a myth or an anomaly, we must still accept the dilemma that it exists. In our minds, our noses or our tastebuds makes no difference.
There are many things that occur in our minds that aren't real.
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You're scaring me Garp!! Can you give us an example?? Maybe metallic aftertaste from too much Baking Powder in a naan. Haha. :owsome: :Clown: :clown2:
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An atheist might respond "God ?".
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Phil has given you a starter for ten :)
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When I'm cooking curry, I no longer really smell it in the kitchen but my daughter came in the other day and told me she could smell it from her studio down in the shed. The shed is 50 metres from the house.
nasal fatigue is a real thing. If you want the full smell, and thus aroma, and thus "taste" experience, take 5 minutes to step outside before sitting down to eat your meal. This will allow the nasal fatigue to abate and you will get a much better "taste" experience.
(I am putting taste in scare quotes because what we think of as flavour is a synthesis of smell and taste. If your nose is tired of smelling the same thing, the flavour or "taste" will be much muted.)