Curry Recipes Online
British Indian Restaurant Recipes - Main Dishes => British Indian Restaurant Recipes - Main Dishes => Madras => Topic started by: daveeb on January 05, 2011, 11:53 AM
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Hi folks, I`m new on here but have been reading your posts for a while now having been trying to emulate the good stuff for more years than I care to remember!
My own madras is really close and probably like a lot of you guys, when someone else has it they are amazed how much it`s like a restaurant one etc...
However, I think it still lacks that moorishness...
If I can I would like any ideas you may have!!
When I have mine the first half of it is fine but then I become bored with it, it seems to become a bit blandish but doesn?t taste so at the beginning.
I bought a takeaway over Xmas and it was perfect, no bits ? just sauce and chicken, kept going back to it all night and in the morning was left with a bit in the tray.
I made my own the next day using my own base and spice mix and at the end I tried to make them the same i.e. same saltiness, same sweetness, same amount of fresh coriander taste, heat etc etc
The tastes were almost identical and hard to tell apart, but the same thing happened while eating ? half way through I got a bit bored with it again???? Why???? It tasted the same at the start.
The only difference I would say is I don?t use as much oil (2 tspns for a takeaway tray portion of base)
My Madras is basically Undercover curry style base and Dipurajas madras method with a slight difference in spice ratio ? I fry them more first, method for precook chicken is different and I don?t go heavy on the Methi)
Has anyone experimented with oil levels?? Is MSG or Onion puree an idea?? More or less Turmeric??? Could it be I?m a bit too used to my own???
I?m going to experiment over the coming weeks but beforehand any help would be appreciated
Cheers
Daveeb
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The only difference I would say is I don?t use as much oil (2 tspns for a takeaway tray portion of base)
IMHO, Dave, herein lies the problem. I really think you need to very significantly increase the amount of oil to at least 5 tablespoonsful, then if you don't like seeing or eating the oil, pour most of it back into a basin just before serving for reuse next time.
If I reheat (or re-spice) a T/A curry, I find it is enormously improved by ensuring that it cooks in an excess of oil which I can then pour off for another day.
** Phil.
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i would try adding a little bunjarra near the end of cooking - taste fab on its own and it might just get you where you want to be
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Hi Dave,
Well done on your first post :)
Welcome to the barmy world of BIR style curries. I too have experienced this, and never really found a solution as such but, like any TA, if you keep eating their food on a regular basis, you tend to acquire the taste of it. I now, think the same of my own curries. I've been eating them for so long, that, if I try somewhere new, I'm often disappointed.
However, my regular TA, beats my curries hands down, and yet, it didn't when I first started ordering from them. Do you see what I'm getting at? We are all too critical of our own food, and often expect more than we should. My friends and family, like yours, always say without fail, that my curries are far better than their regular TA or BIR. They often ask me to cook them a curry and are more than willing to offer me the full TA or BIR price for it, and yet, I often feel that they are lacking something.
Stick with it Dave, have faith, and I'm sure that you will find the taste that you believe you are missing (and when you do, let me know what it is mukka ;D)
Ray :)
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Hi Dave
I to experience the same, my currys taste almost there but does'nt seem moorish like my local TA's , i cook for friends and most say my curry is better than anything they have tried from restaurants, there main comments are that the curry taste much more fresher and i do agree with that (fresher) but im still missing that special something i believe, maybe its precooking more ingredients or maybe the curry is good but my taste buds are expecting more, probally all in my head.
i had the best TA curry very recently it was awesome tasted a bit salty but fantastic, infact after eating i drank a pint of water , i wonder how much salt is actually used in TA'S and how much salt contributes to the taste.
atb Fishy
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thanks for the replies so far
I will try using the extra oil tomorrow and see what happens, i dont like the whole oil slick thing but i will scoop it off at the end as phil says
GM - i dont know what bunjarra is or where to get it so i cant try that one
if anyone comes up with any more ideas please post
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not had this myself and a tad stumped - i find the opposite - curry gets better for over a short period after cooking then stays same till it's all gone.
only thought jumping out perhaps is the dish is getting cold.
ps it's not the oil either. i was taken a back over new year at my fav BIR in the midlands - no oil at all. they have been developing their dishes for quite a while but this latest change is a real eye opener. had the garlic chilli bahar vindaloo hot - to die for.
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i was taken a back over new year at my fav BIR in the midlands - no oil at all.
No oil ? NO OIL ??? You'll be telling us next it was bright yellow, tasted of raw curry powder, and had sultanas and raisins floating in it :o
** Phil ;D
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Phil,
no. it really tasted every bit as good as it's always tasted (the place is the Dilshad).
i was honestly speechless. it was even more surprising that of the 9 people in our party no one else noticed the absence. i could not see all the dishes but at least 5 off had no oil at all. (2 off bahar, 1 off Korahi, 1 off garlic special, 1 off balti).
all with no oil - or at least none that you could see - on the surface or in the curry - i know it sounds impossible.
the only real giveaway was a hint of water in the bottom of the curries - like when something has been frozen.
i'm going to try a copy cat and also ask at my local TA to get their view too.
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That seems to increasingly be the way of it up here, Jerry....most of the newer restaurants round our way are pushing the likes of madras, dopiaza et al down the menu usually under the heading "old school favourites" or suchlike in favour of new "healthier" authentic curries I've never heard of before.....the places that have madras etc as the "stars" are the same places that do pizza, kebabs and fried chicken. ??? If you want a greaseladen vindaloo, you've got to go a takeaway, not a restaurant. :-\
I had wondered if it has anything to do with the price of vegetable oil going up so much in recent years. Either that or curry is going upmarket lol
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Lots of oil, all purpose seasoning and not eating the curry straight after you've cooked it (your tastebuds are blasted) really helps. If you leave the curry for a few hours before you eat it you'll get that morish taste. Or get someone else to cook it for you!
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I had wondered if it has anything to do with the price of vegetable oil going up so much in recent years. Either that or curry is going upmarket lol
Domi,
i noticed a start of the change at this restaurant about 5 yrs ago. it's progressively gone as you say up market. unlike other upmarket they've kept the price low and the portion decent. how they made this change is difficult to work out - gut feeling is that every constituent part of the curry must be just right every time. i think it's what emin-j has touched on in the past but having had no direct experience could not relate to this type of food.
as for daveeb, '"still lacks that moorishness.." the only other thought given my recent CTM experience is that it's down to the base not being good enough.
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Why do people crave a McDonalds? A Burger King? A nice juicy Donna Kebab? Fish and Chips?..........
It's because they are all full of fat. Fat is the most wonderful tasting/addictive ingredient in all the above and Indian takeaways too.....
The trouble is, when we make it at home, we try to be health conscious, only a tablespoon or 2 of oil here and there.
The Indian restaurants don't care how much oil you eat, it's good for their business.... you come back for more and more and more......
Possibly and just possibly if we were to use the amount of oil or fat that any of the above use, we would be producing food that would keep us at the table all night.......
Albeit, we wouldn't be at the table for too long........
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its a myth that more oil = stronger bir flavour. I spent months working out the optimal oil level and concluded that if the oil to base and spice ratio is to high, the curry soon starts to taste far less moorish. Too much oil begins to dominate the flavour of the curry, so dont over do it.
The amount of oil you use in the base, has a big impact on the amount of oil you need when doing the curry. If your base is loaded with oil , then perhaps only 4 tbs of oil are necasary when making the curry.
Dont make the mistake i once made, of thinking adding lots more oil improves the flavour. Its simply not the case. If you want to improve your curries ,concentrate on making sensible changes to your base, and then concentrate on the recipies for the curry. If your curry lacks morrishness, its usually because the overall recipe is just not that good. The moorish taste comes from a good balance of spice, a nicely prepared base, good technique , and a certain amount of experience at playing around with different spice mixes. The oil soaks up the flavours of the recipe. But dont use to much oil or it turns into a greasy spoon curry!
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The trouble is, when we make it at home, we try to be health conscious, only a tablespoon or 2 of oil here and there.
Not in this home, I am afraid. We still cook in roasts in dripping, use butter in pastry, cook pancakes in lard and when I eat a hot-cross bun, the butter is a bun-sized slice about 1/4" thick! So when it comes to curries, there seems no point in stinting on the oil. For about 5 pints of base, I would use 8 tablespoons of oil (usually 50% recycled, 50% rice bran), then for each pint of base in the finished dish I would also use about 8 tablespoons of oil.
The amount of oil you use in the base, has a big impact on the amount of oil you need when doing the curry. If your base is loaded with oil , then perhaps only 4 tbs of oil are necasary when making the curry.
Derek, from your perspective, would you say I am overdoing it with the oil ? I invariably pour most of it back into the recycled oil jar before serving the dish, but in my experience, too little oil spells ruination for a curry, and the amounts I am now using seem just about right to me. And I certainly don't have a problem with achieving "moreishness" : tonight, long after all the chicken was gone, my wife and I were still eating the curry sauce by the spoonful !
** Phil.
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As the chef's say "Fat means flavour"
It's difficult not top be frugal with oil, for years now we have been told that oil and fat is bad for the arteries and health in general. But when it comes to certain meals, curries and frying spices, i don't think you can reduce the amount without reducing the flavour or burning things.
I know this, but still, when i start frying the spices for a curry, i still get that little voice in the back of my mind saying" don't do it, use less oil!".
The only way over the hurdle is to just bite the bullet and do it. The curry always tastes better for it.
Olive oil is an alternative, but for me its a no-no, T.V. chef's that use olive oil in curries are not making, or trying to make BIR replicas as we are, so they can get away with the healthier option. Add to that the flavour of Olive oil and, well, its alien in a curry for me.
Yes, using more oil is actually quite a difficult mental hurdle to get over.
But well worth it.
Another thing is chef's rarely use the measurements they tell you to use. Take Jamie Oliver as a case in point, watch one of his excellent Meals in 30 minutes shows and you'll see what i mean. When he adds 2 serving spoons of Olive oil to a frying pan he actually tells you, as he's doing it, to add a couple of tsp's or a tbsp of oil to the pan.
What he is really doing is cooking a meal the correct way, with the correct amount of oil for the process in real time, yet trying to tell us to be healthy at the same time, and not get bashed by the healthy eating critics. You see, he's doing it himself but telling YOU not to.
Watch Dipuraja's vids and he does the exact same thing. These are two examples of either the mental block saying "Don't" or the bending of the rules for the healthy eating campaign. There's nothing wrong with this, its healthy, yet tells us to watch carefully and never take a recipe's measurements for granted.
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phil i would try a little more oil in the base, and a few tbs more in the curry . for example i use 300 ml of base with between 6 - 9 tbs of oil, per curry. i make base with 3 kg of onion and 3/4 pints of oil at least.
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phil i would try a little more oil in the base, and a few tbs more in the curry . for example i use 300 ml of base with between 6 - 9 tbs of oil, per curry. i make base with 3 kg of onion and 3/4 pints of oil at least.
OK, interesting : in view of your earlier message, I had thought that you would advise me to use less; as you say "use more", I am greatly relieved :)
** Phil.
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no. it really tasted every bit as good as it's always tasted (the place is the Dilshad).
Was that the place on Highbridge road?
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Fat is the most wonderful tasting/addictive ingredient
I must have an incredibly tasty backside at the mo, 976bar :o I've made myself a very low oiled 5L base in an attempt to take some of my "flavour" away ;D ....It'll be interesting to see what difference it makes to my curries which I'll also be trying to get as near zero oil as possible...at least for a few months ??? No Naans, bhajis or sides....however will I cope?
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Wouldn't it be far less stressful just to have your stomach stapled, Domi ?!
** Phil.
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An update on the oil question!
It seems from a lot of your posts that oil is a big factor in "moorishness", I think I knew it but wanted to cheat the unhealthy truth...
976 bar is spot on with - "The trouble is, when we make it at home, we try to be health conscious, only a tablespoon or 2 of oil here and there.
The Indian restaurants don't care how much oil you eat, it's good for their business.... "
Also, Peterandjen with "when i start frying the spices for a curry, i still get that little voice in the back of my mind saying" don't do it, use less oil!".
Thats been me (my wife runs her own slimming company and gives me dirty looks when I make a curry!)
I use the Undercover curry base but I use 300ml oil instead of the 500ml I should.
That in conjunction with that I only use 2 teaspoons of oil in the finished curry means that my madras doesnt have that moorishness as described earlier (but is suprisingly still very good!)
SO, I made a curry using a full ladle of oil yesterday and it was the D`s B`s
Bear in mind that was using the 300ml oiled base so if i use the full oiled base it will be perfect.
I will make some more full oil base soon and report back (I can never get the oil back out at the end very well, it doesnt separate enough - hence why i stared putting less in)
Has anybody got any tips on separating oil from the base or final dish to make scooping off easier??
Davee B
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Anybody got any tips on separating oil from the base or final dish to make scooping off easier??
It needs to cook for long enough to separate out (10 to 15 minutes, provided that the base itself was cooked for long enough), and of course stirring will keep setting things back, so whilst you want to stir fairly vigorously if you start (as I do / KD recommends) at a highish heat, you need to back off the stirring as you back off the heat. And don't be embarrassed to take it away in the middle of the meal and pour some more off if it continues to rise to the surface (as it usually does). And have your cholesterol level checked at least once every fifty years :-)
** Phil.
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The sheer amount of calories in oil or fat is very high - about 125 calories for 1 single 15 ml tablespoon.
Quite shocking really!
Paul
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I've just worked out my curries probably contain about 4.75 tablespoons of oil from what I add and what is in the base. That is about 600 calories without the meat or rice.
They do taste good though!
Paul
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daveeb,
might help on separating oil from base http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2684.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2684.0)
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Maybe its just that food always tastes better if someone else cooks it for you, if you have a fry up breakfast in a cafe or hotel it alaways seems to taste better that when you cook it yourself and then eat it.But its still the same ingredients in it.
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Hi
I started this post a while ago at the beginning of my quest and now feel I should answer my own question as I feel I have the answer! (after 8 months of learning) this was for my favourite, Madras
Basically there is more than one answer to this question and the more of these you apply to your curry the more "moorish" it will be.
In making order
Boil Onions in turmeric first for base 1st stage
Coconut cream in the base 2nd stage
Salt in everything
2 chefs spoons oil in final curry then skim off
Onion/green pepper tarka
Decent ratio mix powder (Balanced)
Burn/singe spices
Tspn Red massala paste in final curry
High heat on base at end until thick
Everything else is just padding or for colour, these are what makes it rich, however the biggest thing ive learned is not to make the base and final curry in the same day - not only does the base flavour get richer but just mainly that being immersed in curry smells for 3 hours just dampens your taste buds.
Any others please let me know what you think
Davee b
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All makes good sense to me up to this point, Dave :
High heat on base at end until thick
I wonder how thick you are aiming for ? For me, "moreish" requires the finished sauce to still be runny; if it clings to the chicken and won't drip off, I tend to leave it, having extracted and eaten the chicken. But if the sauce remains behind when I lift out the chicken (some adhering, of course, but at least twice as much falling back), then I will usually mop it all up with my chapatti. So, how thick are you aiming for during your final stage, in terms of my "what ratio falls back" test ?
** Phil.
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Its a close one, too thin and its a bit boring but too thick and it turns sickly.
I look for the "lava" style craters which bubble away when it gets to the right consistancy
when you put it on the rice it coats the rice really well but doesnt kind of disapear into the rice so you have dry looking rice if that makes any sense
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Its a close one, too thin and its a bit boring but too thick and it turns sickly. I look for the "lava" style craters which bubble away when it gets to the right consistancy. When you put it on the rice it coats the rice really well but doesnt kind of disapear into the rice so you have dry looking rice if that makes any sense
OK, sounds as if we are aiming for much the same thickness : I shall watch for the "lava-style craters" next time, to see if I normally take it that far !
** Phil.
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Its a close one, too thin and its a bit boring but too thick and it turns sickly. I look for the "lava" style craters which bubble away when it gets to the right consistancy. When you put it on the rice it coats the rice really well but doesnt kind of disapear into the rice so you have dry looking rice if that makes any sense
OK, sounds as if we are aiming for much the same thickness : I shall watch for the "lava-style craters" next time, to see if I normally take it that far !
** Phil.
Hmmm. The way I read it it seems that your ideas of the 'right' thickness are diametrically opposed.
Phil wants some adhesion to the chicken but not so much that the sauce doesn't run off. Daveeb wants the sauce thick enough that it doesn't flow into the rice. Contrary requirements don't you think?
For what it's worth I'm with Phil (I think). Curries should basically be runny such that they flow into the rice. If they are so thick that they don't then they are, or in my opinion should be, a speciality such as bhuna or balti.
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Hmmm. The way I read it it seems that your ideas of the 'right' thickness are diametrically opposed. Phil wants some adhesion to the chicken but not so much that the sauce doesn't run off. Daveeb wants the sauce thick enough that it doesn't flow into the rice. Contrary requirements don't you think?
Well. I don't think we're diametrically opposed, but we might be at different points on a continuum. I was really basing my answer on Dave's "too thin and its a bit boring but too thick and it turns sickly"; that is exactly what I am aiming for, too. But I may well have misunderstood the "coats the rice really well but doesn't kind of disapear into the rice". By "disappear into the rice", I thought (probably wrongly) that Dave was talking about it being /absorbed/ by the rice; but the way that you (Santa) put it, it is not absorption that is taking place but capillary attraction : the sauce flows between the grains, not into them. So if that interpretation is correct, then yes, Dave & I are at different points on the continuum : I want my sauce to flow between the rice grains (but I don't want them to absorb the sauce). Dave ?
** Phil.
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Its all about preference I suppose, the thickness between us is probably not too different (just describing it is hard!)
Probably a good way to think about it is the difference between a takeaway madras in a foil tray and a restaurant version in the small balti dish, the takeaway has lots of sauce and is quite runny wheras the restaurant is a bit thicker and more intense - thats where I would say mine is once I see those craters.
The slow bubbling "lava" craters are really just telling me that the base in the sauce has been fried due to the excessive oil and has caramalised/sweetened - Im getting hungry now!!