Curry Recipes Online
British Indian Restaurant Recipes - Main Dishes => BIR Main Dishes Chat => Topic started by: missy on April 24, 2011, 07:41 AM
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Hi everyone
This is Kris Dhillon's recipe for chicken madras. Just to make it a little better by adding more flavour I decided to add 2 tablespoons of lemon juice at the start and a teaspoon of curry powder mixed in with the cummin and garam masala at the end. It tasted pretty good to me, would anyone out there agree with me, and do you have any other suggestions I could add to it?
I am in Thailand so some of the ingredients that are ready available for you in the UK aren't always as easy to find here or are too expensive, like pataks masala paste or any other pataks products are very expensive here. I couldn't even find single cream anywhere here so I used whipped cream for the CTM and Korma.
So, I have to keep the ingredients pretty basic. And Kris dhillon's recipes are fairly basic but perhaps not the best.
Kris Dhillon's madras
5 tablespoon of vegetable oil
? pint (425ml) curry sauce (page 20)
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon chilli powder
1 lb (450g) chicken cooked as on page 52
1 level teaspoon of garam masala
? level teaspoon ground cummin
Pinch of ground fenugreek
? tomato thinly sliced
1 tablespoon finely chopped green coriander
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Hi Missy,
Personally, I would move away from using Garam Masala in such quantities. It is very pungent and has a tendency to over power dishes. If I do use it, I use only a little pinch at the very end of the cooking, and stir it through.
I realise that Khris doesn't really use a "spice mix" as such, aka; Spice blend, curry masala, mix powder but maybe you could replace the Garam masala, and ground cumin with 2 tsp of spice mix.
Try a side by side comparison and see what you think.
As for the use of Pataks products, there a many good recipes on here that don't require them, and indeed, some members actively avoid using paste's.
Ray :)
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Cheers for that Ray
In kris's curry base there's no garam masala added, so I guess that's probably why there's more than usual in the initial main dishes. But, I have been looking at your base and I think i'll give it try next time I make a batch.
Your spice mix looks good but not sure if the Mild Madras Curry Powder will be so easy to find here.
Also, I have been looking at your recipes and they all look very good but I know that most of the ingredients you use for the masala sauce, etc will be very expensive or not available here. That's why I like Kris's book because she doesn't have tons of ingredients in her recipes. But, I'm sure her dishes aren't half as good as most of the recipes on this website.
If I make your base and spice mix (but might have to change the mild madras curry powder) how can I change Kris's recipe to use both your base and spice mix but not your masala sauce, etc?
I have made some pretty decent curry's from Kris's book, but I'm sure they can be better. So, I really appreciate your help and obvious expertise on this.
Kris's recipe for CTM
4 tablespoon vegetable oil
? pint (425ml or three cups) curry sauce (recipe page 20)
1 teaspoon paprika
1 teaspoon salt
1 level teaspoon chilli powder
pinch red food colouring
1 teaspoon garam masala
? teaspoon ground cummin
3 chicken fillets freshly made into chicken tikka (page 30)
6 tablespoon single cream
1 tablespoon finely chopped green coriander
Heat the oil in a large deep frying pan, add the curry sauce, and bring to the boil.
Without reducing the heat and the paprika, salt, chilli powder, and food colouring. Cook for five minutes stirring frequently, or until the sauce thickens.
Turn down the heat and put in the garam masala and cummin powder. Stir, cook for three minutes.
Cut each piece of chicken tikka into two smaller pieces, stir them in, with the cream, into the sauce and simmer for a further 2-3 minutes.
Serve sprinkled with the coriander.
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Hi Missy,
If you want to use my base sauce and spice blend, then simply replace Khris' base for mine, and where she asks for 1 tsp of Garam Masala and 0.5 tsp of cumin, replace with 2 tsp of my spice mix.
I'm not quite sure of which masala sauce that you mention? I don't think that I've published on yet? lol
As for Madras curry powder, use what you have available. It may taste different but will possibly be quite familiar to the Thai tastebuds.
Just a word of warning, when using my base in the final dish, it will release it's oil quite a bit. The level of oil is consistant with that of BIR curries but I'm not sure how oily Thai's like their curries.
Hope that helps,
Ray :)
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Hi Missy,
If you want to use my base sauce and spice blend, then simply replace Khris' base for mine, and where she asks for 1 tsp of Garam Masala and 0.5 tsp of cumin, replace with 2 tsp of my spice mix.
I'm not quite sure of which masala sauce that you mention? I don't think that I've published on yet? lol
As for Madras curry powder, use what you have available. It may taste different but will possibly be quite familiar to the Thai tastebuds.
Just a word of warning, when using my base in the final dish, it will release it's oil quite a bit. The level of oil is consistant with that of BIR curries but I'm not sure how oily Thai's like their curries.
Hope that helps,
Ray :)
Cheers for that, I will give it a try.
As for the masala sauce I'm talking about it's the one you put in the Kushi chicken tikka masala. http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4495.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4495.0)
And the curries will be mainly eaten by westerners, and most of them being brits. Thai people don't really like indian food or most dishes that don't use a bucket load of fish sauce in everything :P
Cheers
Phil
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You might like to try one of these two, Phil : both are KD1-derived.
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http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5223.msg51468#msg51468 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5223.msg51468#msg51468)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5672.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5672.0)
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Hi Phil,
I see, yes I've put a few recipes on from the Kushi Restaurant (Authentic Balti Curry cookbook) and I agree, their masala sauce is quite elaborate.
Well, if your cafe/restaurant is aimed at westerners, then I'm confident that my spice blend and base sauce will be familiar to them with regards to taste.
Ray :)
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what about adding your lemon juice at the end and that way you will get the maximum flavour from it because it won't cook out.
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You might like to try one of these two, Phil : both are KD1-derived.
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http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5223.msg51468#msg51468 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5223.msg51468#msg51468)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5672.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5672.0)
Thanks for that Phil.
I will keep my eye out for the bassar curry masala next time I go spice shopping and try the out the first link.
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what about adding your lemon juice at the end and that way you will get the maximum flavour from it because it won't cook out.
Ok, I will also try that. I thought I would add it from the start after looking at chewy tikka's website and he puts it in hot oil before adding the curry base. http://bir-recipes.org.uk/CR0/ChewyTikka/Zeera-Restaurant-Madras.pdf (http://bir-recipes.org.uk/CR0/ChewyTikka/Zeera-Restaurant-Madras.pdf)
Cheers
Phil
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hi missy you could try these and you should be able to get the ingredients the world over
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5544.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5544.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5545.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5545.0)
regards and welcome
gary :)
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hi missy you could try these and you should be able to get the ingredients the world over
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5544.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5544.0)
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5545.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5545.0)
regards and welcome
gary :)
Thanks for that Gary. I was thinking about adding a pepper and a couple of carrots in there but a few people on here have said they make very little difference to the taste. Would you say they make much difference? And how do you feel about not slicing the onions first and boiling them whole?
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Add a dash of lemon dressing (1/2 oil, 1/2 lemon juice) near to end of making a madras.
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Add a dash of lemon dressing (1/2 oil, 1/2 lemon juice) near to end of making a madras.
Thanks, I will try adding it in at the end instead of the start.
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Hi Missy,
One of the best Madras recipe's I have tried on here is the Zeera Restaurant Madras. Simple and easy to make and you should even be able to get all the ingredients in Thailand, well maybe not the worcestershire sauce, but maybe...... :)
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Hi Missy,
One of the best Madras recipe's I have tried on here is the Zeera Restaurant Madras. Simple and easy to make and you should even be able to get all the ingredients in Thailand, well maybe not the worcestershire sauce, but maybe...... :)
Yea, I thought it looked good, and I can get worcestershire sauce here so I'll give it a go tomorrow
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hi missy yes by all means leave the onions whole but ensure they can be cut with your chef spoon before blending, carrots and green pepper go for it. check out the videos here http://cbm-mick.blogspot.com/ (http://cbm-mick.blogspot.com/) it will give you a heads up on what to do and when seeing it is far better than reading it.
would despute the use of worcestershire sauce in any curry not very BIR imo, hey what do i know...lol and also many pooh pooh the use of any form of lemon in a madras, having witnessed it first hand in 3 restaurant kitchens i think its a given a bit like the chilli powder mixed powder , tomato paste/puree, base sauce and fresh coriander!
it's a simple as that now all you have to do is cook it LOL ;)
kind regards
gary
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hi missy yes by all means leave the onions whole but ensure they can be cut with your chef spoon before blending, carrots and green pepper go for it. check out the videos here http://cbm-mick.blogspot.com/ (http://cbm-mick.blogspot.com/) it will give you a heads up on what to do and when seeing it is far better than reading it.
would despute the use of worcestershire sauce in any curry not very BIR imo, hey what do i know...lol and also many pooh pooh the use of any form of lemon in a madras, having witnessed it first hand in 3 restaurant kitchens i think its a given a bit like the chilli powder mixed powder , tomato paste/puree, base sauce and fresh coriander!
it's a simple as that now all you have to do is cook it LOL ;)
kind regards
gary
Cheers for that Gary. I have looked at that guys website before and it looked good but the only thing is that a lot of the ingredients he uses I can't buy here.
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I also just did a mod of her madras. Also omitted the garam masala and added lemon juice.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6140.msg61150#msg61150 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6140.msg61150#msg61150)
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Personally, I would move away from using Garam Masala in such quantities. It is very pungent and has a tendency to over power dishes. If I do use it, I use only a little pinch at the very end of the cooking, and stir it through.
Hey Razor
I'm not sure I agree with you on the 'toning down' of the use of Garam Masala at the end of cooking, but I'd like to hold fire on my reasons for why until I've understood your reasoning for wanting it toned down.
This question also forms the basis of something else I'm grappling with when reading through many of the posts here.
So here's my question - what garam masala mix do you actually use? Your own? A bought one? or Khris's? Have you actually made Khris's base, her recipe for Madras, her own Garam Masala Mix recipe in the exact quantities she describes and on that basis feel that 1tsp of her Garam Masala added at the end of cooking overpowers the dish?
I'm really curious about this.
Cheers and good Karma!
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Can't answer for Ray (obviously) but just some follow-up comments :
1) I too prefer Khris's Madras without the Garam Masala;
2) I double her volume of base per unit weight of meat;
3) And I double her quantities of spices per unit volume of base;
4) And no, I have not tried it with /her/ Garam Masala -- my preference for omitting was based on the use of a commercial Garam Masala, brand no longer known but quite possibly Rajah. In fact, with the sole exception of Mushroom Bhaji, I no longer use Garam Masala at all.
** Phil.
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I too have to agree with Razor.
I've made several of Dhillons recipes and to be honest I am not that impressed, including the Madras and the excessive use of Garam Masala.
But!! I also have to say that this is what this forum is all about. Individual tastes, not only from their own cooking, but also the taste that they have become accustomed to and grown up with by use of their local Indian Restaurant/Takeaway.... ;D
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Hey Phil
Thanks for giving your opinion on this.
4) And no, I have not tried it with /her/ Garam Masala
This now prompts my question - How do you know what Khris's Madras tastes like when you haven't actually cooked it out using all the ingredients in her recipe?
If it's your assumption that ALL garam masalas taste the same or influence the taste of a dish in the same way - you'd be wrong in my opinion, as in the quantities we're dealing with in our dishes, even small changes in quantity or proportion of ingredients and even the technique of cooking them and the sequence of adding them can have quite a significant impact on the overall flavour and taste of a dish.
Personally I wouldn't put a bought garam masala anywhere near any of my dishes for two specific reasons - 1) The spices aren't freshly ground and 2) I have no idea what's actually in it and in what proportions.
This is only my opinion of course and I'm not trying to be contrary - I genuinely am interested in how and what the posters here base their opinions on.
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This now prompts my question - How do you know what Khris's Madras tastes like when you haven't actually cooked it out using all the ingredients in her recipe?
I don't :) My comment is based solely on Khris's Madras as I made it (i.e., with commercial g.m.) and it may well be that it tastes five times better with her g.m. -- I just don't know.
If it's your assumption that ALL garam masalas taste the same or influence the taste of a dish in the same way - you'd be wrong in my opinion
I'd be wrong in my opinion, too ! Of course I don't assume that all g.m.s taste the same, any more than I believe that all commercial curry powders taste the same, or even that all Chicken Madras's taste the same : even different ground chillies don't taste the same, so as soon as we get on to blended spices, there is bound to be an enormous difference (as there is, by way of personal experience, between a jar of Bassar Curry Masala that has been around for three years, and a sample of the same product from a newly opened bag !).
** Phil.
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I've just looked at the ingredients again in the KD1 book for the garam masala. It is quite an interesting mix but the half nutmeg is an off-putter for me for starters. I bought the book just before discovering this forum so I've never cooked anything from the book as I figured I'd do better with the cr0 recipes.
I think I probably made the right decision.
Cheers,
Paul
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I don't :) My comment is based solely on Khris's Madras as I made it (i.e., with commercial g.m.) and it may well be that it tastes five times better with her g.m. -- I just don't know.
Hey Phil
Thanks for following up on this.
Okay, so let me get this right. Firstly, you prefer Khris's Madras without her Garam Masala, based on your use of a commercially made Garam Masala and you modify her dish by a) doubling the volume of base sauce per unit weight of meat and b) double her quantity of spices per unit volume of base.
So for the same weight of meat Khris uses you double the amount of sauce base and double the amount of spices and feel that the use of Garam Masala at the end of cooking is not beneficial to the overall flavour and taste?
Can I ask why you I feel these modifications to her recipe were necessary to bring it in line with your own preferences?
Cheers and good Karma!
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Can I ask why you I feel these modifications to her recipe were necessary to bring it in line with your own preferences?
Very briefly, because I am typing one-handed as a result of a shoulder
injury that is getting steadily worse ...
Why no g.m. : simply because it tasted better without;
Why double sauce : I found we ran out of sauce while eating the dish before we ran out of chicken;
Why double the spice : because I found it too lacking in body and flavour with Khris's recommended quantities.
But despite all this, I still have enormous respect for Khris as mould-breaker, author and chef. Her Chicken Madras, unmodified, got me closer to real BIR than I had achieved in forty years of experiments guided by traditional Indian recipe books. My later improvements were just the icing on the cake.
** Phil.
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Heya Phil
Thanks again for giving your opinions, particularly if you're finding it difficult to type due to your shoulder injury - hope that improves for you.
Why no g.m. : simply because it tasted better without;
Why double sauce : I found we ran out of sauce while eating the dish before we ran out of chicken;
Why double the spice : because I found it too lacking in body and flavour with Khris's recommended quantities.
Khris's Garam Masala contains quite a high proportion of Coriander and Cumin as an overall percentage of the total ingredients, I'd estimate somewhere in the region of 40% or even higher which is quite high for a Garam Masala. Traditionally, Garam Masala's only contained the 4 body heat inducing ingredients - Cinnamon, Cloves, Black Peppercorns and Cardamons and was added right at the end of cooking to help improve aroma.
Khris is using her Garam Masala as a 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside her other spicing and as part of the overall spicing of the dish. She's not using her Garam Masala in the conventional way - at the end of cooking.
In my opinion this is why you've not found the dish to your liking and have had to modify it. You're not cooking it, or using the ingredients in the way Khris described and intended.
Incidentally, I'm not defending Khris here - I'm defending a methodology. Cooking is about technique, methods AND ingredients, it's not just about one or the other. You've got to cook dishes out in precisely the way they were intended before you can start modifying them.
Cheers and good Karma!
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All very interesting observations, Spiceyokooko, and I thank you for drawing them to my (and our) attention; I shall clearly have to re-visit KD with a freshly-made batch of authentic KD g.m. !
Incidentally, I'm not defending Khris here - I'm defending a methodology. Cooking is about technique, methods AND ingredients, it's not just about one or the other. You've got to cook dishes out in precisely the way they were intended before you can start modifying them.
Modulo "You've got" (which I would prefer to cast as"It is usually better", I completely agree:)
** Phil-the-one-armed.
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Hi Spiceyokooko,
Sorry for the late reply to your original queries (I must of missed it somehow ???)
I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes. Whilst I agree with you with regards to the level of coriander seeds and cumin seeds being quite high and unusual for a GM mix, the aromatics such as cloves cinnamon, nutmeg, cardamoms (green/black) still burst through and to me, give the dish a "pharmaceutical" note. That's just my opinion, and I would stress to anyone, try to make the dish to spec first before making any changes, whether they're recommended by me or others. Changing a published recipe before trying it, just because you don't like the look of it, is probably going to take you further away from what your taste buds prefer rather than closer to it...!
Khris is using her Garam Masala as a 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside her other spicing and as part of the overall spicing of the dish. She's not using her Garam Masala in the conventional way - at the end of cooking.
Yes I agree and find it strange practise. As you say, GM is generally added at the end of the dish, added any earlier, usually results in the GM's pungency being reduced if included at the 'hard cooking' stage. Most of the ingredients in GM are a fair bit more expensive than the ingredients you would find in a 'curry masala', so why does Kris ask us to use GM, in the way we would use Curry Masala? To me, it doesn't make sense (in a restaurant environment anyway) and it does seem that Kris is attempting to give her dishes a flavour that you wouldn't have found in any of her restaurants?
Incidentally, if I ever do use GM in a dish these days, I always use Rajah Garam masala. For the tiny amounts that I use, it's not worth the effort to make up my own and to be fair, I can't see many BIR's going through the effort to make their own GM either (this is only speculation based on no evidence whatsoever)
Ray :)
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All very interesting observations, Spiceyokooko, and I thank you for drawing them to my (and our) attention; I shall clearly have to re-visit KD with a freshly-made batch of authentic KD g.m. !
Heya Phil
I'm also going to have a crack at Khris's Madras and also probably like you I'm reluctant to invest in a freshly ground Garam Masala mix specifically for her dishes that I may or may not like! But I do feel it's integral to her spicing and will therefore have to do it.
I also note in her book a couple of things -
1/ In the weights and measures section she uses 'slightly rounded' spoonfuls unless specified as being level;
2/ She pre-cooks her chicken in the first stage base sauce (onion/garlic/ginger/salt puree) and this will obviously add to the texture, depth of flavour and tenderness of the chicken. This is why in her Madras recipe she specifies approximately a 10 minute cook time.
Out of curiosity, did you precook your meat as per Khris's instructions and then cook the final Madras dish for the time she specified - approx 10 mins and still found the amount of sauce used (per weight of meat) to be insufficient?
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Heya Ray
Thanks very much for giving your opinions on this.
As you say, GM is generally added at the end of the dish, added any earlier, usually results in the GM's pungency being reduced if included at the 'hard cooking' stage.
Could it be that we're 'assuming' that Khris's Garam Masala is added at the end, when in reality it's actually being used as a generic 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside the other spices she specifies within the dish? She specifies that the Garam Masala is added along side the Cumin and Fenugreek almost exactly at the half way stage in cooking - after 5 mins, the dish then get's cooked out for another 5 mins before being ready. It's not as if it's being added right at the end and simply stirred in without any further cooking time as per more conventional Garam Masala use.
As you rightly point out, if the Garam Masala is added as part of the cooking process it's pungency would be reduced, yet you still felt it overpowered the dish and made it taste pharmaceuticial?
Most of the ingredients in GM are a fair bit more expensive than the ingredients you would find in a 'curry masala', so why does Kris ask us to use GM, in the way we would use Curry Masala?
It's a good question. But it's clear from her use of Garam Masala that that is her 'Spice Mix' or 'Curry Masala' if you prefer as none of the other ingredients in it apart from Cumin feature at any other stage of her basic 'Chicken Curry' or 'Madras' recipes. It's not unusual for all of the ingredients (perhaps with the exception of Black/Brown Cardamon) found in her Garam Masala to feature at some point in most Indian dishes. Perhaps she needs or feels the need for those flavours to feature somewhere within the overall flavour of the dish and by adding them in relatively small quantities in the her 'Spice Mix' and then used in small quantities of Garam Masala within each dish is the most cost effective way of her achieving that. I'm convinced in my mind that the use of Black/Brown Cardamons is due to cost cutting as they're cheaper than Green ones and contribute a very similar if slightly 'less refined and earthier' flavour. 1 teaspoon of whole Green Cardamons is not huge when you consider it also has 1 tablespoons (3 teaspoons) each of Coriander and Cumin in it! A teaspoon of whole cloves and half a small nutmeg isn't huge either when considered as part of the overall volume.
To me, it doesn't make sense (in a restaurant environment anyway) and it does seem that Kris is attempting to give her dishes a flavour that you wouldn't have found in any of her restaurants?
Do any of us truly know exactly what the ingredients and proportions of them are in these highly secretive 'Spice Mix's' or 'Curry Masala's used in BIR's? There's a thread at the moment by Whamsy asking this specific question - and none of us can really give him the answer. What he does know is, the 'Spice Mix's he's used in substitute of the secret recipe obtained from his local BIR does not give him the same results.
It's difficult therefore I think to reject Khris's Garam Masala 'Spice Mix' as being wrong, when we don't really know what commercial BIR's actually use.
Just my own personal opinion and speculation of course!
Cheers and good Karma!
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Hi Spiceyokooko,
Could it be that we're 'assuming' that Khris's Garam Masala is added at the end, when in reality it's actually being used as a generic 'Spice Mix'
No, I'm aware of how Kris intends us to use GM in her recipes, and like I said, I think it pretty unusual. My understanding of GM is, it is mostly used as a condiment rather than a main ingredient such as a generic spice mix, that way, you get the full benefit of the aromatics.
As you rightly point out, if the Garam Masala is added as part of the cooking process it's pungency would be reduced, yet you still felt it overpowered the dish and made it taste pharmaceutical?
Yes, even though the aromatics have somewhat dissipated, there is still an underlying hint of cloves, cinnamon and cardamom which to me, do indeed have a 'medicine' note to them which is still noticeable in the dish. I'm not saying that it's wrong, I just don't believe that GM is used in this way as I've never noticed a 'medicine' note to any curry I've ever had with the exception of the odd Balti dish.
It's not unusual for all of the ingredients (perhaps with the exception of Black/Brown Cardamon) found in her Garam Masala to feature at some point in most Indian dishes.
Totally agree but are they as prevalent in BIR cooking as appose to traditional Indian cuisine?
Do any of us truly know exactly what the ingredients and proportions of them are in these highly secretive 'Spice Mix's' or 'Curry Masala's used in BIR's? There's a thread at the moment by Whamsy asking this specific question - and none of us can really give him the answer. What he does know is, the 'Spice Mix's he's used in substitute of the secret recipe obtained from his local BIR does not give him the same results.
Probably not mate but I'm pretty confident that the generic curry masala doesn't include cloves, cinnamon, cardamom or bay leaf, as these are the 'hot' (garam) element in GM. As for Whamsy's question with regards to spice mixes, it always going to be hard for any of us to give him a definitive answer because none of us know what he uses as the bench mark ie; does he prefer his curries with a stronger jeera flavour or does he prefer a more garlicky element. Another question to Whamsy from me would be, how many different spice masala's has he actually tried from off cr0 or anywhere else for that matter? Abdul Mohed, tells us that he is a restaurateur, and so his publish '8 spice' should be the real deal although Whamsy prefers the curries he makes using the donated spice mix. That in itself tells me that 'what's good for the goose, is not always good for the gander'!
Back to Kris Dhillon, I have both books and have tried a fair amount of the recipes to spec but, I've always dropped the use of the GM in favour of my own spice masala on future tries. I know that to some, Kris's recipes are a revelation and have took them far closer to BIR food than they ever could have imagined but to me, I think that they can be greatly improved on by adding this, omitting that, and substituting some ingredients for others. It's all down to the individual taste I guess?
Plenty to debate here, which is great for the forum.
Ray :)
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Ray
Plenty to debate here, which is great for the forum.
Absolutely!
I cooked out Khris's Madras recipe this afternoon - to the letter and I'm happy that all stages were cooked correctly with all the specified ingredients in the correct quantitites. I now have 4 jars of various Garam Masala mixes, all marked up as to what they are fortunately!
My first impression of her Madras was one of over-powering saltiness. This might just be me, because I do have a reputation amongst my culinary friends of being a bit of a 'salt Nazi' in other words I don't like using much salt in my cooking and because of this my taste buds have probably re-tuned themselves to a lower salt tolerance.
When I do use salt it's usually high grade sea salt and often smoked, so to use bog standard chemically processed salt in the quantities Khris specified was a bit too over-powering for me, which was a shame because it spoilt the dish and I was barely able to taste anything out apart from salt!
Having said that, I didn't find the Garam Masala over-powered the flavour (probably because of the salt!) but I won't really be able to say until I've cooked it again and dialled back that salt content. My other observations were that for my taste it could do with a bit more ooomph in the chilli department so next time I'd probably up the chilli to a teaspoon and a half and may even add some fresh chopped green finger chillis at the same time as the fresh coriander as well as perhaps some fresh lemon juice to give it some extra zing.
I can well understand why for many people Khris's Madras is a step towards BIR Nirvana for them, but until I've cooked it again with the above modifications it's hard to be objective about it.
I took a photo with my pilau rice to show how it came out and only ended up eating half that bowl for dinner, I'll see if it enhances overnight when I eat the other half!
Cheers and good Karma!
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/7a10af88def083126b42aeeb19dbf920.jpg) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#7a10af88def083126b42aeeb19dbf920.jpg)
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Hi Spicey
Just my two pennies worth and nothing personal to you or any cR0 members, its just a revelation to me. :o
After reading your post earlier, I downloaded the KD book and I don't know if it's genuine or not but, I've spent some time going through it.
In my opinion, Its no wonder people are still searching for the holy grail, if they've started off their curry quest using this book as a tutorial.
It also explains to me why there are so many crazy theories and notions on how things are done in a BIR kitchen.
Firstly she is Punjabi, so it follows her restaurant (as the story goes) she opened back in 1989, would have been what I call Pakistani BIR, this would explain all the Garam Masala and the use of Cumin in her dishes. Just about every Pakistani BIR I've been in has had a Cumin or Bassar background flavour to all the dishes I've tasted.
The majority of BIR in England are Bangladeshi run. like fellow cR0 member Abdul Mohed (Who posts genuine recipes, in my view).
Going through her recipes, they are simply NOT authentic BIR at all. in fact not sure what they are, she definitely wasn't taught by a BIR commercial cook, basically the fundamentals are missing, No mixed powder, G&G, or tomato puree. Then there's the use of garam masala and cumin in everything, even in a Korma,
and get this, a BIR Korma without Coconut! I don't think so. Her CTM, is her chicken curry with only Paprika and Cream added, no mention of Almond,
Coconut, Sugar or even Tandoori Masala.
IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions. :(
If this is the genuine Curry Secret Book that is!
Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't.
But there are plenty of good Madras recipes on cR0 worthy of your effort, even the Admin's Passata Madras is got to be better than this recipe. ;D
cheers Chewy 8)
p.s. She's probably a lovely women and it was 21 years ago ;D
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IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions. :( If this is the genuine Curry Secret Book that is!
Yes, it is, and in my opinion It is a great shame it was pirated. I have four or five printed editions, including two of "The New Curry Secret", and to my mind they are worth every penny. I am afraid that with one arm out of commission, I neither have the energy nor the enthusiasm to debate every one of your points (with some of which, of course, I completely agree) but I want to defend both Khris and TCS : they /taught/ me how to make BIR curries, and without them I would probably never have gained the enthusiasm to join, and participate in, fora such as CR0. I wholeheartedly recommend TCS to complete BIR beginners, although I am less enthusiastic about TNCS. And to Spicey : I /love/ salt, can't get enough of it (ideally Maldon sea salt, my maternal family home), which may explain why KD's recipes resonate so powerfully with me !
** Phil.
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I would rate the Authentic Balti Cookbook over KD1 for getting you close to BIR cooking. I would rate CR0 above any single book in print for BIR recipes.
If I hadn't discovered CR0, I would have tried some KD1 recipes and probably stopped trying to cook BIR after a while.
Perhaps when KD1 was first printed it might have been a significant book but times have moved on.
I've got nothing against the author, just the recipes.
Cheers,
Paul
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Hi there chewytikka
Thanks for your views on this, as Ray said earlier, it stimulates debate and discussion.
Firstly, I think I did mention in a previous post that I was not defending Khris Dillon here - I was defending a method - that method being, that you MUST cook out a recipe exactly as the recipe is described before you can start modifying it or even passing judgement on it in a critical way.
basically the fundamentals are missing, No mixed powder, G&G, or tomato puree.
Okay you've stumped me a little here, what are you referring to by 'no mixed powder'? I assume you're referring to the 'Spice Mix' or 'Curry Masala' as some call it that BIR's use? This is really what prompted my comments in this thread to begin with! Khris Dillon calls her 'Spice Mix' Garam Masala! So how can you say she doesn't use one? She just calls it by a name you and others have usually associated with something else.
No Garlic and Ginger or tomato puree? Did you actually read the recipe for her base sauce? Clearly not because that contains those exact three ingredients you're claiming she doesn't use!
Then there's the use of garam masala and cumin in everything
As I said previously, the 'Spice Mix' or 'Mixed Powder' as you refer to she calls Garam Masala, she doesn't used Garam Masala in the more conventional way most of us associate it with - at the end of cooking. You'll notice with her recipe for basic Chicken Curry and Madras Garam Masala goes in half way through cooking, that's not using Garam Masala in the traditional sense 'stirred in at the end of cooking' and her Garam Masala uses far too high a percentage of Cumin and Coriander to be considered and used in a conventional way. I originally estimated the Coriander and Cumin % of the total volume to be about 40% having actually made it I can revise that estimate up to about two thirds the total volume.
and get this, a BIR Korma without Coconut! I don't think so. Her CTM, is her chicken curry with only Paprika and Cream added, no mention of Almond, Coconut, Sugar or even Tandoori Masala.
I can't really comment on these dishes as I've not cooked or tasted them. I've looked at the ingredients and agree some of the omissions are curious, and all her dishes appear to follow a fairly formulaic pattern with only small additions or omissions in ingredients according to the dish. Her overall flavour 'profile' is clearly coming from three things 1/ the base sauce; 2/ the precooked meat and 3/ the spice mix she uses or Garam Masala as she calls it. Personally, I don't really see how that's too far from the methods most BIR's would use.
IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions.
Well that's your opinion of course and as such you're perfectly entitled to express it.
However, given what you've written here (and I can only go on what you've written, so please correct me if I've assumed or interpreted anything incorrectly) you don't appear to have fully understood Khris Dillons cooking methods or use of ingredients. You claim she doesn't use 'Mixed Powder' when she clearly uses a spice mix she calls Garam Masala. You claim she doesn't use garlic, ginger or tomato puree when clearly she does in conjunction with onions in her base sauce. You complain about her use of Garam Masala when you've incorrectly understood her use of it. And finally, you've never actually bothered to cook out any of her dishes or tasted them and on that basis you claim her book shouldn't be recommended to beginners? I find it quite hard to understand exactly how you can come to that conclusion to be honest!
Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't
Well thanks for that! Reading the above paragraph rather suggests you're perhaps not in the best position to be able to judge whether it does or doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, it looks and tastes pretty similar to most 'run of the mill' BIR Madras's I've tasted in the past, but then my 'Holy Grail' isn't to create 'run of the mill' BIR's. My reason for cooking it was to understand why people were complaining about her Garam Masala and it's clear to me that some of the people doing so may have misunderstood and misinterpreted her recipes and instructions for cooking them - just as you appear to have done.
Cheers and good Karma!
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Hi spiceyokooko,
My reason for cooking it was to understand why people were complaining about her Garam Masala and it's clear to me that some of the people doing so may have misunderstood and misinterpreted her recipes and instructions for cooking them - just as you appear to have done.
Mmm, sorry mate, I can't really go along with that comment. Garam masala is exactly that, Garam meaning 'hot', masala meaning 'mix' If a recipe calls for Garam Masala, then that's what it should mean. It shouldn't mean 'curry masala' as that is a completely different beast. Kris Dhillion is a well established author and restaurateur of 30+ years, I don't believe that she has made such a fundamental error in a required ingredient.
Kris asks us to use garam masala because that's exactly what she wants us to use. She doesn't ask us to use garam Masala, hoping that we know that she really means 'curry masala' AKA, mixed powder, spice mix, spice blend, base spice, and even curry powder.!
If I was publishing a recipe which called for chilli powder in it but I really meant paprika, I wouldn't assume that everyone would know this before hand, it doesn't make sense.
No Garlic and Ginger or tomato puree? Did you actually read the recipe for her base sauce? Clearly not because that contains those exact three ingredients you're claiming she doesn't use!
What chewy means by that is, there isn't a 'tarka' being made at the beginning of the dish for example, 3 tbs of oil, add garlic and ginger paste, then add curry masala/spice mix/mixed powder,then add 3 tsp of kashmiri chilli powder, then add diluted tomato puree, then add a chefspoon of base gravy, all pretty standard practise when making the madras and is what gives it that orangey/red colour.
Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't
Again, I don't think that he's being cruel here, he is simply saying that KD's madras recipe isn't really a madras, and if you have replicated her recipe to the letter, then yours isn't a madras either. The above method that I described are fundamental in making a BIR madras, if Kris doesn't include at least some of that method, she really isn't creating a madras as such.
it looks and tastes pretty similar to most 'run of the mill' BIR Madras's I've tasted in the past
Alas, this is true of so many BIR's and TA's today and is the reason why this forum strives to produce recipes of a much better quality than the 'run of the mill' BIR's and the 'Jack of all trades' TA's
In my opinion, you would be better off searching out Cory Anders recipes if you want a real 'wow' moment when you cook a madras, he also has many many other curry recipes too. I would also suggest checking out a few of Chewytikkas videos too. He has worked in BIR's back in the 80's (the golden age of BIR to some) and has a wealth of knowledge to share. I'm not saying completely disregard Kris Dhillon altogether, I even have a copy of her New Curry Secret next to me as I type, I'm just saying that the 2 mentioned members will take you as close as you can get to real BIR food, IMHO....!
All the best,
Ray :)
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In my opinion, you would be better off searching out Cory Anders recipes if you want a real 'wow' moment when you cook a madras, he also has many many other curry recipes too. I would also suggest checking out a few of Chewytikkas videos too. He has worked in BIR's back in the 80's (the golden age of BIR to some) and has a wealth of knowledge to share. I'm not saying completely disregard Kris Dhillon altogether, I even have a copy of her New Curry Secret next to me as I type, I'm just saying that the 2 mentioned members will take you as close as you can get to real BIR food, IMHO....!
Can't think of two better yard sticks to use Ray - CA and CT = good BIR curry dishes ;D. The rest of us provide the regional variations, side dishes, accompaniments etc. and there are so so many and damn tasty too :P. As for KD, i bought her book (i have the NCS as well) after having purchased a couple of Pat Chapmans. Both helped me get started in learning the basics about BIR. The rest is now history and we are here and there is no doubt there is not a better place to be. Only a quality BIR kitchen can provide more than we have in this forum. I tried recipes from both books as per spec, not knowing any better at the time, with at best mediocre results. Until and if a BIR chef pens a comprehensive volume that includes the full range of dishes available in a BIR this site is the bible. Having said this it seems to appropriate to also acknowledge the contribution by Abdul Mohed CR0's own BIR chef who has been contributing here for a while when his work and business commitments allow him. He has no doubt sparked interest, certainly amongst forum members here, with his first book. This merely scratches the surface for us wannabe BIR chefs. We want more, so much more in fact. If he or any other BIR chef were to put together a book containing recipes and methods for the normal dishes found in all sections of a BIR menu, he would be on a real winner. In fact he would probably give Kris and Pat a run for their money :o
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Garam masala is exactly that, Garam meaning 'hot', masala meaning 'mix' If a recipe calls for Garam Masala, then that's what it should mean. It shouldn't mean 'curry masala' as that is a completely different beast.
Based on who's viewpoint, yours, chewytikka's or hers? The problem and confusion here I think is that Khris Dillon can call her 'Spice Mix', 'Mix Powder' 'Curry Masala' (note how there's already three and plenty more names for the same thing) whatever she want's to, it's her recipe book after all! Add in the fact that Khris Dhillons book 'The Curry Secret' was first written in 1989 - 23 years ago, long before 'Spice Mix', 'Mix Powder', 'Curry Masala' or even Garam Masala came into general use and acceptance.
By general use and acceptance, I mean by modern day standards and when Khris wrote that book, the closest convenient term for her to use for a general purpose 'Spice Mix' was probably 'Garam Masala' and that's probably the reason she used it.
Kris Dhillion is a well established author and restaurateur of 30+ years, I don't believe that she has made such a fundamental error in a required ingredient.
I don't think she has for the reasons I've already given. In my opinion the errors people have made are in the interpretation of her recipe ingredients and instructions for using them. It's not as if she's asked you to use a pre-made commercial Garam Masala mix - she's given the exact ingredients and quantities included in the Garam Masala she's asking you to use in her recipes.
Kris asks us to use garam masala because that's exactly what she wants us to use.
Yes, but she wants you to use HER Garam Masala as detailed in the ingredients section of her book. At no point does she ever state 'Go grab any old bag of Garam Masala and shove that in my recipes'.
She doesn't ask us to use garam Masala, hoping that we know that she really means 'curry masala' AKA, mixed powder, spice mix, spice blend, base spice, and even curry powder.!
She doesn't have to! She's already detailed the precise ingredients and quantities in her Garam Masala she wants you to use. Your misinterpretation is in thinking that her Garam Masala is interchangeable with what you've become accustomed to understand as 'Garam Masala'.
If I was publishing a recipe which called for chilli powder in it but I really meant paprika, I wouldn't assume that everyone would know this before hand, it doesn't make sense.
What doesn't make sense, is you thinking Khris's Garam Masala is interchangeable with what you've grown accustomed to understand it to be - something you add at the end of the cooking process. You clearly demonstrate this thinking in your second post in this thread -
Personally, I would move away from using Garam Masala in such quantities. It is very pungent and has a tendency to over power dishes. If I do use it, I use only a little pinch at the very end of the cooking, and stir it through.
And again here -
I realise that Khris doesn't really use a "spice mix" as such, aka; Spice blend, curry masala, mix powder but maybe you could replace the Garam masala, and ground cumin with 2 tsp of spice mix.
Khris does use a 'Spice Mix' it's called 'Garam Masala, the contents of which is detailed in her ingredients section! And yet above, you're still trying to argue not only that Khris doesn't use a 'Spice Mix' as such, she has no right to call it Garam Masala', because it doesn't fit in with what YOU want and think it should be!
In recent posts you said this -
I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes.
And this -
No, I'm aware of how Kris intends us to use GM in her recipes, and like I said, I think it pretty unusual.
Yet earlier in the thread you stated virtually the opposite!
Confused? Yes I am, but I'm sure you've got a rational explanation, you seem to have plenty of those ;)
Cheers and Good Karma!
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I don't know what point anybody is trying make now. It doesn't matter whether Kris calls it garam masala or not. The point is it is a spice mix that won't get you a BIR taste. Why? Because it contains: Green cardamoms, cloves, black pepper, cinnamon, bay leaves, nutmeg and brown cardamoms in significant quantities.
Cheers,
Paul
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It doesn't matter whether Kris calls it garam masala or not. The point is it is a spice mix that won't get you a BIR taste. Why? Because it contains: Green cardamoms, cloves, black pepper, cinnamon, bay leaves, nutmeg and brown cardamoms in significant quantities.
An interesting and somewhat curious point from someone who by their own admission has never actually cooked anything from Khris Dhillon's book and yet somehow appears to know with concrete certainty, what the majority of BIR's use and don't use within their spice mixes.
I honestly thought this site was about the sharing of knowledge and experiences which hopefully lead to a greater knowledge and understanding of what everyone is trying to achieve in their various goals.
What it appears to me to be, is an entrenching leading to a defence when challenged of individual peoples opinions and views, which as a relative newcomer here is extremely disappointing to see.
:o
Cheers and good Karma!
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It's 1735 hours and it's dark outside in Cambridgeshire..........
Anybody want to argue that it's light, just for the sake of it? :-\
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Spicey,
I have all the aforementioned spices in my spice cupboard - I know what they taste of and I do use them sometimes but not in a BIR madras.
It seems you have proved to your own satisfaction and pre-conceptions that we are an inferior species in our quest to cook BIR style food. I suspected when you first turned up that you would end up ridiculing us.
Point made now, maybe time to move on or just end up trolling the forum.
Paul
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I have enjoyed cooking Kris's recipes, many times
They aren't what I would call, a copy of any Indian Takeaway's curry, I have known
But they still are enjoyable
In fact, I have bought versions 1,2 & 3 of the Curry Secret
I kept re buying in the hope that there would be that "extra something"
In the end, I thought the first book, was the best
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Oh come on you guys -- we get a new member who isn't afraid to speak his mind and who is willing to challenge our preconceptions : isn't that just what we need, if we are to avoid the "we know it all, there is nothing more to be learned" trap ? I for one am willing to admit that there is always something more to be learned, and if that involves re-thinking some of my own ideas, then so much the better. We /need/ new members, if we are to avoid dying of stagnation -- even if Spicey is outspoken, surely that is not a reason to suggest that he "moves on", is it ?
** Phil.
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You're right Phil, I've said too much already. If I were so closed minded I wouldn't have done yesterday's cooking which involved cooking a curry with a completely alien (to me) spice mixture comprising of just turmeric, cumin and curry leaves and a little GM. Took me all day and I'm a bag of nerves on these Champix anti-smoking tablets which, although effective take it out of you. I hope your arm recovers soon.
Maybe I'll make up the KD spice mix out of curiousity and give it a whirl.
Anyways, enough from me, I'll get me coat!
Cheers,
Paul
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Oh come on you guys -- we get a new member who isn't afraid to speak his mind and who is willing to challenge our preconceptions : isn't that just what we need, if we are to avoid the "we know it all, there is nothing more to be learned" trap ? I for one am willing to admit that there is always something more to be learned, and if that involves re-thinking some of my own ideas, then so much the better. We /need/ new members, if we are to avoid dying of stagnation -- even if Spicey is outspoken, surely that is not a reason to suggest that he "moves on", is it ?
** Phil.
I certainly haven't got anything against anybody being outspoken Phil. And we should welcome challenges to our preconceptions. There is still a lot to be learned otherwise we'd have gone off all being able to cook as good a dish as the best BIR. However, this topic as a few members have already suggested has now been flogged to death. What have i got from the thread - nothing other than the principle of following a recipe exactly to spec, and that does mean exactly. Five pages and 47 replies later has not added to my knowledge, made me rethink any of my ideas and i am no nearer cooking better dishes for it. I think it's time we moved on, or at least i will. Feel free to pm me if anything earth shattering does eventually come out of this thread. Apologies but my yin and yang are now well unbalanced by it. :o
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Yeah fellas, Let's call it a day, It don't matter how you do it, as long as the finished result is to your liking,
But i do think it's better to try a recipe first before criticizing, Although i must say i was enjoying this debate.
HS
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OK, so let's try to get back on a more constructive basis. I for one have certainly learned something : that KD has her own garam masala mix which I have almost certainly never made. So my next KD will be using her garam masala, and I look forward to reporting back on what difference it makes. I will also go back to her original quantities, since at worst I will end up with one below-par curry, but I certainly hope to learn something from the experiment.
** Phil.
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Best of luck to you with the Champix PaulP i'm on them too, they're brilliant those little pills, make you feel a bit bloated at night but other than that excellent, Eating before taking the night time jobby helps with the farting, talking of which there's been a load of gas in this thread.
I wonder if spicyokooko is Kd's publisher?
Its fine to have an oppinion and state it, but i think there's a line between interesting conversation and just fecking boring :)
I bought The new curry secret, its on my bookshelf covered in curry stains, i followed the recipes to the letter, i think her naan bread recipe is ok for a beginner, but none of its bir standard imo. You get better results with some of the cr0 users recipes, or Dipuraja, god bless his sole, The Authentic Balti Cookbook ABC, is excellent and much better value for money, as stated imo.
I honestly can't see me opening Kd's book agaqin since i started coming here, but then again that's my opinion. And i am not just bashing Kd's book, there's a shelf covered in them here that are as far from bir fair as hers, its just that this threads about Kd isn't it?
Anyway, excellent thread :).
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Whoa, hang on a minute. It's all very well ceasing to comment on a thread that "we" think is going nowhere in terms of understanding but when spiceyokooko makes comments such as this;
Yet earlier in the thread you stated virtually the opposite!
Confused? Yes I am, but I'm sure you've got a rational explanation, you seem to have plenty of those ;)
then surely I have the right to reply?
I think that's a bit unfair as it implies that I'm over-opinionated? I was asked a specific question by Spiceyokooko, which I tried to answer the best way I could.;
So here's my question - what garam masala mix do you actually use? Your own? A bought one? or Khris's? Have you actually made Khris's base, her recipe for Madras, her own Garam Masala Mix recipe in the exact quantities she describes and on that basis feel that 1tsp of her Garam Masala added at the end of cooking overpowers the dish?
I'm really curious about this.
And here was my reply;
Sorry for the late reply to your original queries (I must of missed it somehow )
I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes. Whilst I agree with you with regards to the level of coriander seeds and cumin seeds being quite high and unusual for a GM mix, the aromatics such as cloves cinnamon, nutmeg, cardamoms (green/black) still burst through and to me, give the dish a "pharmaceutical" note. That's just my opinion, and I would stress to anyone, try to make the dish to spec first before making any changes, whether they're recommended by me or others. Changing a published recipe before trying it, just because you don't like the look of it, is probably going to take you further away from what your taste buds prefer rather than closer to it...!
Now I think I have given a fair reply to a fair question? As you can see, where I have bolded certain text, I clearly state that this is MY opinion (of which I have loads of apparently) and mine alone. I also stress that the recipes should be done to spec before being changed, whether that be on my recommendation or others.
It seems to me Spicey, that you are taking my replies the wrong way, as If I'm trying to be confrontational or something? I'm not confrontational nor am I over-opinionated but I do try to offer a helping hand to anyone who asks for it, based on what I have learned from my time on cr0. I always try to answer a question as honestly and as thoughtfully as I can, with the hope that it will help others.
I'm sorry if you and I disagree on what 'Garam Masala' actually is, but the fact remains, Garam Masala is not what is known as mixed powder; AKA Curry masala, base spice, restaurant masala, spice blend, mixed spice and so on....
Quote from: Razor on Today at 12:40:33 PMGaram masala is exactly that, Garam meaning 'hot', masala meaning 'mix' If a recipe calls for Garam Masala, then that's what it should mean. It shouldn't mean 'curry masala' as that is a completely different beast.
Spiceyokooko's reply Based on who's viewpoint, yours, chewytikka's or hers? The problem and confusion here I think is that Khris Dillon can call her 'Spice Mix', 'Mix Powder' 'Curry Masala' (note how there's already three and plenty more names for the same thing) whatever she want's to, it's her recipe book after all!
No she can't Spicey, not if she means Garam Masala and whilst I agree, she does provide us with her own recipe for garam masala, it doesn't change a thing. She has given us a recipe for GM and not restaurant masala (another name). The below text is taken from Kris's New Curry Secret, page 29, Getting Started, and is how she describes what SHE means by garam masala;
a) Garam masala
Garam means 'hot' and masala a 'mixture of spices'
According to the Ayurvedic concept of health, food items
having differing effects on our bodies and our health due to
our constitution or tri-dosha. The heat from this 'hot' spice
mix is not a heat that you taste with chillies, but one
that warms the body. Spices such as cloves, cinnamon,
black cardamoms and nutmeg are the garam constituents
of this aromatic mixture.
I think that that, explains exactly what Kris is asking us to use when she calls for garam masala in her recipes, and her reasons as to why we should use it (health benefits).
Kris Dhillons Garam Masala, makes 3 tbsp (45g?)
1tbsp coriander seeds
1 tbsp cumin
1 tsp green cardamom
1tsp cloves
1 tsp black peppercorns
2 sticks of cinnamon
2 bay leaves
0.5 small nutmeg
4 black cardamoms
Pat Chapmans Garam masala, makes 200g
4.5 tbsp coriander seeds (similar proportions to KD)
2.5 tbsp white cumin seeds (roughly half the proportion to KD)
5 tsp aniseed
5 x 5cm pieces cassia bark (Similar to cinnamon)
1.5 tbsp green cardamom (similar proportions to KD)
1 tbsp cloves (similar proportions to KD)
1.5 tsp dried mint
4-6 bay leaves
2 tbsp dry rose petals (optional)
1 tsp saffron stamens (optional)
Savitri Chowdary's Garam masala makes a good jar full? (taken from a very old book, Indian Cooking)
2 oz black peppercorns (Included in KD's GM)
2 oz coriander seeds (included in KD's and PC's GM)
1.5 oz cumin seeds (included in KD's and PC's GM)
0.5 oz cloves (included in KD's and PC's GM)
20 green cardamoms (included in KD's and PC's GM)
0.5 oz cinnamon (Included in KD's GM)
So Spiceyokooko, as you and others can clearly see, a garam masala is defined by it's main ingredients, and NOT by mine, yours or even KD's interpretation of what garam masala is (although KD's IS a garam masala by definition.
And, whilst it seems that we are arguing (though I thought that we were debating) over a single ingredient, albeit a very important one, what you have completely missed is this quite important fact; forum member Missy has opened up a cafe/restaurant in Thailand and has requested much help and advice through various threads on cr0. My first post in this thread was made with that in mind. It was aimed at a forum member, who was trying to make a success of his new business in Thailand, with the very best intentions. It was made with a 'commercial' aspect in mind as well as my own PERSONAL opinion, which I believe Missy holds in high regard, based on previous corespondents with him. Maybe if you would have spent a bit of time, getting to know the forum, reading through some of the fantastic posts on cr0 and getting a flavour of the general theme, then maybe you wouldn't be reacting in such an offended manner just because our ideas or theories differ!
And as for this comment;
What it appears to me to be, is an entrenching leading to a defence when challenged of individual peoples opinions and views, which as a relative newcomer here is extremely disappointing to see.
Nobody has said that you can't have an opinion and nobody is having a go at you because of your opinion. I am/was, simply trying to give an answer to your question based on MY OWN opinion first, and second, what I and many others know, as fact. Sorry that doesn't fit in with your own ideas, but what can I say, life goes on?
Ray :)
P.S,
when Khris wrote that book, the closest convenient term for her to use for a general purpose 'Spice Mix' was probably 'Garam Masala' and that's probably the reason she used it.
No it wasn't, commercial curry powder would have been much closer for her to have used...!
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Sounds like everyone makes some important points to me!
- Members really should make recipes AS SPECIFIED (at least in the first instance) before they can reasonably and fairly critique them (which, it seems to me, is SOO's main point and with which most others seem to agree)
- Kris Dhillon was one of the first (albeit several years after Pat Chapman, as far as I know) to bring "BIR-like" cooking methods (i.e. highlighting the use of a curry base) to the masses in her "The Curry Secret" book. As such, she influenced many thousands of curry aficionados, throughout the world, and should be respected for it accordingly
- Kris's method (particularly using garam masala in almost all of - if not all - her recipes...plus the absence of the other typical BIR aspects from her methods, as highlighted by CT) is distinctly UNrepresentative of typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIR cooking methods (which is, it seems to me, CT's main point)
- Kris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?). It certainly is NOT a typical "spice mix" ("mix powder", etc) used by typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIRs - which generally comprise turmeric, coriander, cumin and chili (and/or paprika) plus maybe some other stuff (one of Ray's main points it seems to me)
Seems to me that everyone is actually in broad agreement then! :P :o
From my perspective, I tried Kris's recipes, way back in 1989, when she first published her book, making and using her garam masala and her recipes, as specified, and I found them distinctly lacking. But my "yardstick" was (and still is) typical Bangladeshi BIR cooking. I would agree with CT that the reason I found them lacking was undoubtedly for the reasons he's cited.
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It also explains to me why there are so many crazy theories and notions on how things are done in a BIR kitchen.
Would you care to elaborate on which "crazy theories and notions" you think these are CT?
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Hi CA,
- Members really should make recipes AS SPECIFIED (at least in the first instance) before they can reasonably and fairly critique them (which, it seems to me, is SOO's main point and with which most others seem to agree)
Absolutely couldn't agree more which I make very clear in my initial response to Spiceyokooko.
- Kris's method (particularly using garam masala in almost all of - if not all - her recipes...plus the absence of the other typical BIR aspects from her methods, as highlighted by CT) is distinctly UNrepresentative of typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIR cooking methods (which is, it seems to me, CT's main point)
Again, totally agree. Even though KD is not to my taste, what she has done for the home cook is amazing, and is why I have both copies of her books, even though I was advised to spend my money on something else by a cr0 member.
Kris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?). It certainly is NOT a typical "spice mix" ("mix powder", etc) used by typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIRs - which generally comprise turmeric, coriander, cumin and chili (and/or paprika) plus maybe some other stuff (one of Ray's main points it seems to me)
Spot on, it is my main point along with the fact, 'that KD's "GM" is her spice mix but didn't call it a spice mix back then because we wouldn't have understood, so she called it GM because she knew that that was a product that we WOULD understand? No, I'm sorry but I don't accept that. She states GM because she wants us to use GM, I don't think that she could be any more clearer in that?
I'm even pissing myself off, labouring over this point. :o
Ray :)[/list]
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whats garam masala?
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Just another couple of observations on this topic:
1. "The Curry Secret (Indian Restaurant Cooking at Home" describes itself (back cover and Introduction) as giving "the secret of Indian Restaurant Cooking....the particularly interesting and distinctive variety that is served in Indian restaurants ALL OVER THE WORLD" (my emphasis). So there never was any suggestion of it being of the variety that is served specifically in British Indian Restaurants (as generally staffed and run by Bangladeshis)
2. Kris, herself, has this to say about her Garam Masala: "The garam means hot and the masala a mixture of spices. so this is a hot spice mixture.....Spices such as cloves, cinnamon, black cardamons and nutmeg are the garam (i.e. those having a "warming effect on the body") constituents of this aromatic mixture....The garam masala should be put into foods TOWARDS THE END OF COOKING" (my emphasis). So CLEARLY (and it IS crystal clear) Kris meant (and means) GARAM MASALA in the conventional/traditional sense of the term.
It is also interesting to note that she adds the spices to the boiling curry base (in oil), rather than frying the spices first (not too dissimilar to Taz's method, in fact).
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It also explains to me why there are so many crazy theories and notions on how things are done in a BIR kitchen.
Would you care to elaborate on which "crazy theories and notions" you think these are CT?
I think it would be really interesting, and very helpful to members, if you could please elaborate on this CT?
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Hiya Cory
It's interesting to read your comments here and I'd just like to follow up on a couple of them as I've now finished all the cooking and experimentation I'm going to do with Khris Dillon's base sauce and Madras recipes.
Kris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?).
I don't think I've ever disputed that Khris's Garam Masala is Garam Masala, apart from a comment on the fairly large quantities of Cumin and Coriander it contains. What I have disputed, and fairly rigorously (and will continue to do so) is the way in which it is USED in her recipes. There's a distinct difference between what its called and how its used and I don't think many people have picked up on this - and is the specific reason I've queried peoples use of it in her recipes in this thread.
As far as I'm concerned (and nothing I've read in this thread so far makes me want to change my opinion) she's USING it as a 'Spice Mix' and not how a Garam Masala is traditionally used - and that is at or towards the END of cooking.
Example: Cooking onions. Boiled, sweated, fried and caramelised onions will all have a slightly different taste and texture and produce a slightly different flavour profile when used within a dish. The ingredient has remained the same - the onion, the difference is in HOW they've been cooked. Spices, powders, pastes and Garam Masalas are no different.
Why do I think and believe this?
1/ As I've previously mentioned, Khris's Garam Masala contains very large quantities of the two most common spices used in Indian cooking - Coriander and Cumin which constitute two thirds of the entire volume of that Garam Masala. That is NOT a typical Garam Masala mix, which in it's purest form would only ever contain 4 main ingredients, with Cardamons usually greater in quantity than the other three - Cardamon, Black Pepper, Cloves and Cinnamon. Those four ingredients (with the addition of nutmeg) only constitute one third of Khris Dillons entire Garam Masala mix.
You would never ever add a spice mixture containing such large quantities Coriander and Cumin at the end of cooking, you would always want those spices to be cooked out/into the dish itself.
2/ Khris's recipe for standard Chicken Curry or Madras states that the Garam Masala (and half a teaspoon of ground Cumin and a pinch of ground fenugreek) be added to the dish at the HALF WAY stage of cooking. That is NOT at the end of cooking. She intends that the Garam Masala, the half teaspoon of Cumin and pinch of fenugreek be cooked into the dish itself - as any spice mixture containing such large quantities of Cumin and Coriander (as well as ground fenugreek) would need to be.
That is why I believe she is USING it as HER spice mix, regardless of what it's called, and this is clearly not substitutable with a commercial Garam Masala either.
What started all this for me was Ray's initial comment right at the beginning of the thread where he stated that if he used Garam Masala, it was only ever a pinch at the end of cooking. Straight away, Ray has assumed that in Khris Dhillon's recipe the Garam Masala should be used at the end of cooking - as it would traditionally be used. Khris Dhillon's recipe calls for it to be used in the MIDDLE of cooking, not at the END.
This was further compounded when he mentioned the dish he cooked had a 'pharmaceutical' taste to it. Well it would (and has been confirmed by my experiments on the dish) that it will indeed have a 'pharmaceutical' taste if the Garam Masala is incorrectly added at the END of cooking and not cooked into the dish by adding it earlier.
This formed the basis of my comments that I could not understand how Ray could have cooked Khris Dillon's recipe according to her instructions, yet got a taste totally consistent with the incorrect use of Garam Masala at the end of cooking.
As everyone I think has agreed, recipes have to be cooked PRECISELY according to the instructions given if your subsequent comments and criticisms on the dishes are to be reliable and useful.
Given that I still doubt Ray has cooked Khris Dhillon's recipes according to her instructions, his subsequent advice given at the beginning of this thread would appear to be unreliable. I'm new here and was looking for guidance, the first piece of information I look at turns out to be unreliable - that's not a good start is it?
All of this of course is only my personal opinion and as such I feel I'm entitled to express it.
Cheers and good Karma!
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Spicey,
The KD garam masala is really a hybrid between a spice mix (too much cumin/corriander for a trad gm) and a gm mix.
I'm sure you would agree on that.
I've got quite a few traditional Indian recipe books and you can't take any rules for granted in Indian cooking.
I've read loads of examples of traditional recipes (eg 50 great curries of India) where the gm is fried at the start of the dish. For this reason I think gm just refers to the type of aromatic spices used to prepare it, not to when it is added during cooking.
In the KD1 book (eg chicken curry) this gm or spice mix is not fried unlike a spice mix in BIR cooking. It is not one thing or another really.
More to the point, did you enjoy the food, was your madras like a BIR madras, do you like a BIR madras, could you copy a BIR madras if you felt inclined?
Anyway, I'm cooking the split moong dhal tonight from p138 of an Indian housewife's cookbook. A recipe that is very similar to one I posted here under "another tarka dal recipe". This has gm but it is fully cooked and fried with the whole spices and tomatoes. It is not added "at the end" of cooking.
Cheers,
Paul
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In the KD1 book (eg chicken curry) this gm or spice mix is not fried unlike a spice mix in BIR cooking.
This one fact (together with the onion/ginger/garlic base) was, for me, more than enough justification for the existence of the book. I had spent (literally) decades frying my spices and totally failing to get anywhere near the BIR consistency, aroma and flavour. Then I bought KD1 and found that you don't have to fry the spices at all -- all that is necessary is that they cook in a liquid containing sufficient oil to enable their own essential oils to leach out. I know that the received wisdom on this forum is that "every BIR starts by making a tarka, gently frying the spices, ..." and so on, but as far as I am concerned Kris Dhillon gets so close with her "braise the spices" approach that I am certain that not all BIRs go to the trouble of making a tarka and bhooning the spices.
** Phil.
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The KD garam masala is really a hybrid between a spice mix (too much cumin/corriander for a trad gm) and a gm mix.
Paul
I'd certainly agree that it's a 'hybrid' between a traditional Garam Masala and a more conventional 'Spice Mix', I just wanted to clear up the point I was trying to make with regards to HOW it was used, rather than necessarily what it was CALLED.
The other point I wanted to make is that these things are not necessarily interchangeable between dishes and recipes from one cook to another - that's one of the reasons there is so many different Garam Masala mixes out there. Many of them are tailored specifically for the recipes/dishes that cook is instructing you to make. That doesn't mean you can just pull one off the shelf and use that instead.
I think a discussion on Garam Masala and what it contains and how it's used could go on ad infinitum, because as you rightly pointed out there are no hard and fast rules, merely guidelines.
For example, if I wanted to make up my own 'secret-ingredient' 'all purpose-catch all' spice mix that just happened to contain some Cardamons, Cloves, Black Peppercorns and Cinnamon, plus a variety of others spices - would I HAVE to call it a Garam Masala and HAVE to add it at the end of cooking, because conventional wisdom dictates that's what I have to do because it contains those four ingredients? I'm sure you'd agree the answer would be no.
With regards to the results I achieved - they were interesting.
I first cooked it out following Kris's instructions to the letter and for me it was over-poweringly salty. The second time through I cooked it out precisely as described but added the Garam Masala component only at the end of cooking and reduced the salt to half and it tasted just as Ray mentioned - 'too pharmaceutical' and the Garam Masala overpowered the dish.
The third time I cooked it using all the same ingredients (half the salt, but double the chilli powder) but changed the sequence in which they were cooked, I fried a little of the sauce in oil then bhoona'd all the spices in that, then added the chicken for a few minutes then finally the sauce, and that took me closer to what I expected at the beginning.The fourth time I added some chopped onion, bhoona'd all the spices in that (as third time) added some tomato puree, then the chicken then the sauce and cooked it till the oil separated and that was probably the best of the lot. It was tasty enough and a close approximation to what you might expect to get in a BIR, but still a fair bit off.
It was a good starting point, but I want to try out some more of the recipes given on the site to see how much closer I can get. I'm particularly interested in trying out some of the base sauces, as for me that's where Khris's recipe wasn't quite right.
Cheers and good Karma!
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Ok spiceyokooko,
Given that I'm "unreliable" "have plenty of opinions" and even though I have told you that I HAVE tried the recipe to spec, you doubt that I have and so therefor a "liar", have you even tried my suggestion given to missy? If you have, and you still prefer KD's spec recipe then great, you can safely say that my initial advice was shite (for you).
I still stand by the advice that I offered to Missy, as that is based on MY opinion, which I'M entitled to. I can also understand if other members think that the advice I gave was no good for them, we are individuals after all
As you say, you are new here, which has no indication of how much experience you may have BTW, but when you pick me up on another post directed at another member, and I give my explanations as honestly as I could, I wouldn't expect you to insult me by insinuating that I'm "over opinionated". That's not a good start, is it?
That's unfair mate, I try to offer as much help as I can to any who asks for it. My advice can only be based on my opinions and experiences, nothing more. I'm no master chef, guru whatever you will but I do feel I can offer advice to those who are new to BIR cooking in the confidence that I can help them get closer to what they desire.
Whether they choose to take that advice, is up to them but at least I've tried.
Ray
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If I might be permitted to weigh in here : I have known Ray (on this forum, never in person) for quite some time, and there is no doubt in my mind that he offers good advice to any and all who are seeking it. This whole debate really seems to hinge on whether Ray has ever cooked Kris Dhillion's Chicken Madras using her Garam Masala and adding it at the point during the cooking that she specifies. Ray says, in his immediately preceding message, that "[he has] tried the recipe to spec", and, knowing Ray as I do, I believe him. He has also previously written "I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes.", so I don't think that there can be any doubt that when Ray comments on Kris's Chicken Madras, he does so from a position of experience and knowledge. My own attempts, I am forced to confess, were far less rigorous, in that I never made her Garam Masala and simply made do with a shop-bought pre-packed one.
** Phil.
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If Ray says he cooked it to spec then I believe him as well.
I'm not convinced that by cooking the gm spices early in the process that the spices I don't use would have their flavours eliminated. Nutmeg for example - I can't stand the stuff after consuming 4 whole nutmegs 30 odd years ago to test the narcotic effects of the substance. Don't try that at home folks! :o
Spicey, we appear to have got off to a bad start. If you have any KD base sauce left why not try to substitute a BIR mix powder from here such as: Bruce Edwards, Taz, Ray's own, Mouchak, Dipuraja, Cory Ander, Authentic Balti Cookbook, Abdul Mohed's 8 spice mix etc. Then why not try one of the popular base sauce recipes from this site and see what you think.
Cheers,
Paul
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That's unfair mate, I try to offer as much help as I can to any who asks for it. My advice can only be based on my opinions and experiences, nothing more. I'm no master chef, guru whatever you will but I do feel I can offer advice to those who are new to BIR cooking in the confidence that I can help them get closer to what they desire.
Whether they choose to take that advice, is up to them but at least I've tried.
Ray
Here here!! No different to the rest of us Ray. Don't stop giving advice. There are plenty of people who want it and value it. If this topic hasn't been done to death, then i really don't know what has :-\
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ere here!! No different to the rest of us Ray. Don't stop giving advice. There are plenty of people who want it and value it.
I'm one of those people, and It's much appreciated, how would I learn otherwise If it wasn't for Ray and the rest of you guy's, And I shouldn't think I am the only one by a long way, So keep the advise coming ;)
HS
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Here here!! No different to the rest of us Ray. Don't stop giving advice. There are plenty of people who want it and value it. If this topic hasn't been done to death, then i really don't know what has :-\
I agree CH, and for the sake of the forum, I don't really want to go any further with it, so, I offer my hand to spiceyokooko and lets agree to disagree, and start again!
I can't say fairer than that!
Ray :)
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Ray
I'm more than happy to apologise if you feel I've slighted you, that certainly wasn't my intention at all.
If you feel with a clear conscience that you've cooked Khris's recipe precisely as per her instructions for every stage, including the base sauce, the pre-cooking of the meat in the sauce and ingredients she specifies and the actual dish itself using the exact ingredients she specifies I'm more than happy to accept that.
All I can then say is - my experiences and results of her recipe and dish appear to be quite different to yours and this can quite often be the case when you get two different people cooking the same recipe with different abilities, cooking skills, experience, taste buds and expectations of the final result.
I've often found the need to cook out recipes/dishes half a dozen times or more before I've fully understood them and what impact the ingredients and cooking techniques may be having on the flavour of the dish and know from the consistency or otherwise of the results that I've cooked the dish correctly or incorrectly.
If you can cook out a dish and know instinctively there's something not right with it and can improve it by substituting other ingredients - you're a far better cook than I am and I take my hat off to you because I've been cooking many varieties of cuisines including Indian for over 30+ years.
That's not to say that I know everything there is to know about Indian cooking, far from it, and that's one of the reasons why I'm here - to learn new and different techniques. Indian cookery within itself can be quite tricky to learn and understand due to the sheer volume of differing herbs, spices and ingredients as well as a wide array of cooking techniques each one of which can impart a slightly different flavour on the final dish depending on how its cooked and used.
My ultimate goal of being here is to gain a greater understanding on the BIR way of cooking as opposed to the more traditional way of Indian cooking which I'm much more familiar with - because that's what I've primarily concentrated on. That means I'll be asking a lot of questions as to why people do things - it's not to challenge why they do them, it's to understand why they do them. Who knows, maybe a few people will even gain benefit from my more traditional understanding of Indian cookery techniques.
So please don't take offence at my comments - it's my way of learning and understanding!
Cheers and good Karma!
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Then why not try one of the popular base sauce recipes from this site and see what you think.
Paul
I think I've done enough experimentation on Khris Dillons recipe now to understand the flavour profile its giving and I've now moved on and made some Bruce Edwards base and cooked out his 'Chicken Curry' according to his instructions and I must say I was quite pleasantly surprised. It's definitely a step further forwards in the right direction. It was interesting to note the difference in the 'lighter spicing' of Khris Dillons to the 'heavier spicing' of Bruce Edwards.
It was also interesting to note how Khris Dillon precooks her chicken in some of the 'garlic/ginger/onion' puree and turmeric whereas Bruce Edwards doesn't, although he does suggest that if you want to reduce the spicing in his dish you could do so by pre-cooking the chicken with whole spices. I do have one more portion of Khris Dillons base sauce so I may well try it with the Bruce Edwards 'Spice Mix' and see what the differences are.
Curiously both Khris Dillons' Madras and Bruce Edwards' Madras both looked 'identical'! so I still don't understand the comment and view that 'it doesn't look right'. What does it matter what it looks like, its what it tastes like thats important surely?
I still have plenty of Bruce Edwards base left so I'm going to do some experimentation with his recipe. One weakness I feel is his frying of spices in hot oil - that has a very small margin of error attached to it as its as easy to undercook the spices as it is to burn or overcook them - not that I did either by the way! So I'm going to experiment a little with making a paste out of the spices and tomato puree (and spices plus tomato puree and small amount of garlic/ginger puree) and see what difference that makes.
I also like the way Bruce Edwards adds his base in two stages. He wasn't really clear on exactly how much base you add at each stage but from his instructions you added half a ladle first then I worked out you add about a second ladle which I approximated to be about 100ml/200ml which I just judged by eye. I like the way he uses a reduction method on the first batch until the oil separates and then the second batch until the oil separated which I found added a nice depth of flavour over the Khris Dillon version.
I'll report my findings in the Bruce Edwards thread.
Cheers and good Karma!
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Hi Spiceyokooko,
I think that we both got off to a bad start, so it's probably for the best that we put it behind us :)
Back to Kris Dhillon, I purchased both her books (The Curry Secret and The New Curry Secret) roughly about 2 years ago. Now, by that time, I'd already improved my BIR skills somewhat but without doubt, I still had quite a bit to go. Buying her books, for me, was my way of pitching myself against a bonafide chef/author/restaurateur, just to see how far I'd come. So I went the whole 9 yards, making her base, GM mix and so on. Now, I have to admit, I actually made her base sauce from The New Curry secret and not her original version simply because she herself, describes it as an 'improved' version. I also didn't make her version of precooked chicken because at that time, I'd been making, with great success, the precooked chicken from the Authentic Balti Curry cookbook http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4293.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4293.0)
So, I proceeded to make her 'Chicken Curry' but using her suggestion of adding 1 tsp of chilli powder to turn it into a Madras. This was my first go at this and I followed the recipe to the letter. My thoughts, I didn't think at the time that it was anywhere near a madras, not in flavour nor in heat. I did however think that it was a half decent Chicken Curry (even though the chicken was somewhat over done)
Now, if I remember correctly, on my second attempt, I reduced the sauce quite a bit further as I didn't feel that the spices were getting cooked properly. It made a slight improvement but still, not a Madras as I know it.
My third and last attempt, I replaced the Garam Masala and cumin powder with CA's curry masala and upped the chilli powder to 2 tsps. I added this to the hot oil, off the heat, and stirred quite vigorously until I got the aroma from the spices. I then put the pan back on the heat, and added the base sauce, and continued with the recipe. The result, much better but still, not a Madras (that I'm used to) I'm afraid. There was no 'tang' that I associate with Madras and, although some members disagree on this, there was no lemon in it, which for me, is an integral ingredient for Madras.
Now, I never tried her suggestion of adding a teaspoon of her Tandoori marinade, towards the end of the cooking, and I wish I had have done now because I'm sure that it would have added something.
Alas, that was my last venture with any KD recipes although I do often sit and read her books. For me, there just seems to be quite a few ingredients to certain dishes that she leaves out, and it makes me wonder if they really are her restaurant recipes or a 'dumbed down' version. Her Chicken Tikka Masala, contains no coconut in any form whatsoever. I don't think I've ever had a CTM that hasn't had an underlying flavour of coconut, and so, I've never even attempted to make it, purely because my instincts tell me that it won't taste the way I expect a CTM to taste.
Ray :)
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Hi Spicey,
Glad to hear you've had some success with the Bruce Edwards recipe/technique.
His spice mix is a what I would call a typical BIR blend, very similar to the one provided by chef Taz.
I'm anal enough to have a spreadsheet of most of the BIR spice mix recipes available and there are many similarities.
I've never made that base sauce and was always curious about the inclusion of the adjwain seeds. People have reported that too many can kill it but I've never used them at all. This afternoon I'm making Abdul Mohed's base as it looked like less effort than most because there is no garlic or ginger in this one.
Regarding the hard frying of the spices there are many points of view on this one. Bruce himself advocates the frying as essential. Some people here think that they do require a good singe before they are ready.
If you look at the Taz recipe/technique it describes a base sauce with sufficient oil that you don't actually fry anything. Spices are mixed with the first load of base then this is hard reduced right down to a paste before adding more base sauce. The spices still taste cooked using this method so who knows?
I made the dhal the other night as I'm trying to replicate my local TA tarka dhal and made some progress because I cooked the garlic very quickly in very hot oil. It went brown and I thought I had burned it but no it had the smokey taste I was looking for. I guess the garlic pieces were slightly burned on the outside but still raw enough on the inside to taste like garlic. It made me think I've become too lazy cooking my BIR food slowboat style and I need to speed up the cooking to get a closer result. Food for thought and we are always learning.
Cheers,
Paul