Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Mark J on November 14, 2005, 09:27 PM
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Ive finally managed to replicate the taste and smell I associate with BIR curries, apologies for the long rambling nature of this post in advance.
The catalyst for my discovery was Pete's recent post on the Madras and using the KD base. Below I detail all the steps I went through to get to my discovery, I have since cooked the curry again from scratch including base and it was exactly the same.
First off Pete got me all excited about spiced oil again and his talk of the KD base so I cooked the KD base with about 500ml of corn oil and skimmed most of it off to get my first batch of spiced oil. I cooked some good curries and not so good curries with the KD base and ended up throwing most of it away (Pete's madras being the notable exception), this left me with some spiced oil left over.
I got to thinking what do the BIR's do with left over spiced oil, of course they reuse it. What follows is my description of 2 weekends just gone.
First off I started on my next base with the spiced oil I had left over, I chose Dave Smiths base (premium area of curryhouse.co.uk) and his new recipe for Chicken Achar.
I added all my left over spiced oil and some new ground nut oil to start the base off, when I added the onions they were all but submerged in the oil, this had the effect of pretty much deep frying the onions in the base. At the end of the base I skimmed off the oil.
I cooked Chicken Achar using the reclaimed spiced oil and muttar paneer, both of which I reclaimed oil back into the spiced oil pot. These curries were superb and had the taste and smell, I decided not to post as I wanted to make sure I could replicate this.
Next weekend I started the base again (Dave Smiths base only makes 600ml) I started with the left over spiced oil again only this time I also added the last of the curry base from the previous weekend. My 'son in law' works at the bar of my local BIR and I asked him has he ever seen them pour in the remnants of the previous curry base when starting to use a new batch, his reply: always. I skimmed the oil off again.
Cooked the chicken achar again and this time even better. In summary I conclude the smell/taste is due to reclaimed oil not only in cooking the curries but also in the base recycled ad infinitum. Also recycled base ad infinitum added to a new batch.
I would recommend the premium area of curryhouse.co.uk to anyone, I will post the recipes above when I get chance but for those that already have access you need to look at the base, achar and the pre cooked chicken documents
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Can you post the curryhouse base recipe?
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Is the curryhouse base now in the 'premium area' any different from the one which used to be available for free?
Regards
George
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I had the same question George! When i went to that website, I also saw the basic curry sauce recipe available to everyone.
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Hi Folks,
The base is different from the public version, also mine is very slightly modified (oil and timings), Ill post as soon as I can which maybe Thursday if I get chance
cheers
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Great news.
After making the base for the first time, how much of that 500ml do you estimate you skimmed off?
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Hey grimmo
I've just made up a slightly modified version of the KD base. I added exactly eight ladles of oil. After letting the base cool for a bit, I then managed to ladle off just over eight ladles of clear spiced oil. So you should expect to ladle off about the same amount as you put in I think.
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Hi MarkJ
It's good to hear yet another success!
I think for the most part your ideas are totally logical.
I have to take you to task over one thing though. It's the same argument I've used before. How will people that are not tolerant of any chilli heat tolerate curries made with the oil scooped off phalls, madras' and vindaloos. I've never disputed that reusing oil, whether from the base sauce or the curries themselves, is a good thing. But restaurants reusing oil from the curries just doesn't make sense. I have a friend who considers a korma hot! She wouldn't tolerate a curry made with oil scooped from the hotter curries.
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How will people that are not tolerant of any chilli heat tolerate curries made with the oil scooped off phalls, madras' and vindaloos.
Good point. I wonder if there's any chance they have 'mild oils' and 'hot oils' depending on the source of the reclamation.
Regards
George
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After making the base for the first time, how much of that 500ml do you estimate you skimmed off?
Hi Mate,
Not enough the first time around, the curries were very oily, I had to cook the base for quite a while to skim the oil off, I probably skimmed ~250? 2nd time around I got more like 400
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I have to take you to task over one thing though. It's the same argument I've used before. How will people that are not tolerant of any chilli heat tolerate curries made with the oil scooped off phalls, madras' and vindaloos. I've never disputed that reusing oil, whether from the base sauce or the curries themselves, is a good thing. But restaurants reusing oil from the curries just doesn't make sense. I have a friend who considers a korma hot! She wouldn't tolerate a curry made with oil scooped from the hotter curries.
I only reclaimed some from the finished curries, personally if I was a BIR in the situation I wouldnt reclaim from anything above medium strength
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Mark do you put extra Oil in the Base & skim it off, & extra Oil in the second stage of actually making the Curry & skim off also, sorry but with all these postings I'm a bit lost.
If both statements above are correct would i be right in guessing that you could put say 600-700 ml of Oil in both base & curry, skim off & use again or do you have strict recommendations on amounts of Oil used ?
DARTH..... 8).....
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Another reason I'm intrigued by this new development is that i make loads of Curries with patches of the taste (i think someone else posted about this).
I`m wondering if the patches are the small amounts of Oil that is re-cooked/re-used from the base etc..As you may also recall i posted a long time ago about cooking the Oil on its own on high for 15 Min's which resulted in a sweet tasting Oil.
Does that indicate as many have also mentioned that BIR`s can get their Oil up to a much higher heat than many of us at home.
Thanks DARTHPHALL..... 8).....
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As you may also recall i posted a long time ago about cooking the Oil on its own on high for 15 Min's which resulted in a sweet tasting Oil.
I do recall, and I think it is not relevant. Restaurants will not cook oil on its own for any time. Time is money Darth!
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Good point. I wonder if there's any chance they have 'mild oils' and 'hot oils' depending on the source of the reclamation.
Again, we've covered this before George. Or at least I have. It's not you fault but the search engine here is shite. Perhaps it's time for a FAQ?
I can't imagine the chef scooping oil from phalls, vindaloos etc. into one pot and the oil from korma, passanda into another. But I have never been that close to a chef. What do I know :)
Infact although I don't like creamy curries, I have attempted them, and you can't scoop the excess oil from a creamy curry...can you? At least I've never managed to! It just gets blended into the sauce.
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Hi Darth,
I just put the ~500ml in the base to start with, this means the onions in the base are essentially deep fried in spiced oil.
Then when cooking a curry I use the reclaimed spiced oil to start with, if there is any substantial amount of oil on the curry at the end then I reclaim that also, I dont care if its too hot as I dont do any mild curries ;D
I think the key is the constant reuse of both base and oil, essentially after making the 10th batch of base for example there is still essence of oil and base from the very first one in it, much like the chinese vintage stock idea.
cheers
Mark
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Curry Base Recipe
This is adapted from curryhouse.co.uk, I would recommend this ebook to anyone, well worth the money.
Add remaining spiced oil (usually ~250ml) and top up with ground nut oil to ~500ml
Heat to medium and add 350gms of finely chopped onion
The oil will pretty much cover the onions, deep fry for about 10 minutes
Add 3 gloves of garlic chopped and 2 x 3mm slices of fresh ginger peeled and chopped, fry for a further 1 minute and then turn down and simmer for 10-15 minutes.
Take off the heat and allow to cool, add 350ml of water to a blender, add the oil and onion mixture to this and blend to a very smooth puree.
Add this back to the pot and add 45ml pasata, 0.5 tsp cumin, 0.5 TSP coriander, 0.5 TSP turmeric, 0.5 TSP salt, 0.25 TSP black pepper, add any previous remaining base you have, bring to the boil then simmer for 30 mins to 1 hour. (basically as long as it takes to get the oil to float so you skim it all off) skim off any froth that appears
Take off the heat and skim off the oil, dont worry about getting a bit of the base in as well as the oil, to my mind the most important thing is to get all the oil off.
As you can see when finished using a batch of base you should always make sure you have spiced oil left over and some base (~300ml) left over to make the next batch.
I will post the recipes for pre cooked chicken and the curry (chicken achar) later this week
cheers
Update 2/1/2006:
I now add the following everytime to this base:
1 black cardamom at the initial frying stage (take it out before pureeing and pop it back in after, fish it out at the end)
And when simmering the onions I now add 1 slice of lemon (including peel), half a small green pepper, half a small carrot, 1 TSP fenugreek leaves, 1/2 TSP ground thyme, coriander stalks, small amount of creamed coconut (about 1 inch square or less). (thanks pete for all of that? ;D)
And when all that lot is in I add in the last of my previous base one spoon at a time. All of this then fries for a good 5-10 mins before pureeing.
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The oil will pretty much cover the onions, deep fry for about 10 minutes
Add 3 gloves of garlic chopped and 2 x 3mm slices of fresh ginger peeled and chopped, fry for a further 1 minute and then turn down and simmer for 6 minutes.
That's funny, by coincidence that's exactly what I did on my most recent KD base. I did it this way because I found that the rawness of the garlic and ginger in particular seemed to be evident in the final taste. What I did find is that doing it this way makes the base sauce very sweet, but as I usually add a little bit of sugar to my final curries this isn't a problem. Now I don't need to use sugar.
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Thanks for the extra info Mark.
DARTH.....
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I think the key is the constant reuse of both base and oil, essentially after making the 10th batch of base for example there is still essence of oil and base from the very first one in it, much like the chinese vintage stock idea.
I believe this concept is also used with some bread doughs. Some previous dough is added to the new batch. I think I've heard it claimed that some dough ('sour dough'?), which you can buy, has origins/links from dough first made over 100 years ago.
Regards
George
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Thanks for all the info Mark
This really is the last piece of the puzzle
These methods really produce an excellent base with the sweet and savoury flavour we all know.
Everything is now on the site
I shall be keeping one base going forever now
Anything left over will be frozen and added to the new.
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I think it would be very helpful if we could have a new posting of the complete method in the appropriate forum.
Many thanks to Mark and everyone else on this forum for solving this puzzle.
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Re. spiced or flavoured oils, I guess the heat and long cooking times will reduce the health risk:
http://www.eatwell.gov.uk/asksam/keepingfoodsafe/asksamstoringpreparing/
Lots of different types of flavoured oil are available in the shops, containing garlic, peppercorns, chilli and various herbs including rosemary, oregano and bay leaves, and these often have a long shelf life. But it?s not a good idea to make flavoured oils at home unless you are going to use them immediately. This is because plants, including herbs and spices, can carry spores produced by bacteria. Occasionally, they could carry spores of a type of bacteria called Clostridium botulinum, which can cause botulism. This is a very unpleasant disease, which is rare in the UK, but can be fatal...If you have some oil left over, put it in the fridge straight away and use it within a week. Some oils can go cloudy or become solid in the fridge, but if this happens don?t be tempted to leave it at room temperature, because this might not be safe.
http://www.foodsafetyline.org/english/oils.html
Oils infused with garlic and herbs provide fabulous flavour. But these mixtures are high-risk products...
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7005/oilvin.html
Flavoured oils are great for cooking, salad dressings & vinaigrettes, and make great gifts. They're easy to make too! Keep these things in mind...Use sterile bottles (boil them!)...whenever you want to add anything moist & fleshy (onion, garlic, peppers, etc.) you should acidify it first to prevent toxins from building up...
Regards
George
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When I get to typing up the pre cook chicken method and final curry method I will place all of it in one area, in fact I might pop it in a word doc and attach it.
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OK here's the 2 recipes I talked about, I have cooked the base and this curry twice now over the last 2 weeks and will be cooking it again today. Make sure you skim off all the oil from base or the curries will be oily (not a big problem if you like them oily).
This weekend I will change the base slightly by incorporating the things Pete has added to the KD base that he said made the difference: 1 black cardamom (probably add this after pureeing the onions), 1/4 tsp ground thyme and a slice of lemon
Pre Cooked Chicken
Unlike our other pre cooked chicken recipes I think you need to cook this every time, not sure it will work out as well if you freeze it. This method produces the best results of any of the pre cook methods I have tried and is essential in reporducing the final experience I believe.
Chop up 350g chicken breast
Add 1 TBSP spiced oil on medium heat and stir fry the chicken until it is mostly white all over (not long, only takes 1-2 minutes really)
Next add 4 TBSP curry base and 2 TBSP water, bring to the boil and cook for 15 minutes, its important that the mixture is boiling slightly and not simmering.
Once done leave for 30 minutes for the chicken to absorb some of the juices, this chicken and juices will then be used in the final curry
Chicken Achar (Serves 2)
I have adapted this recipe from curryhouse.co.uk premium area, I recommend spending the money on this site, you get Dave Smiths curry cookbook which is well written and is a full guide to BIR cooking.
Add 2 TBSP spiced oil to the pan and heat on high (you can use more oil but my base is a little oily as is the lime pickle so I only use 2)
Add 0.5 TSP each of fennel and kalonji and fry them for 30 seconds
Turn down to medium and add: 1 TBSP of curry base and fry for a few seconds, add another TBSP of base followed by 2 TSP cumin, 3 TSP coriander, 1 TSP paprika, 1 TSP turmeric, 1 TSP chilli powder. Stir fry for 30 seconds
Add a ladle of curry base* and fry for a 30 seconds
Add the pre cooked chicken including all the juices, add 2 TBSP lime pickle (chopped finely or I have pureed mine), 1/4 TSP black pepper, 1TSP sugar, 1 TSP mint sauce and chopped coriander
Bring back to the boil and simmer for 10 mins
If the curry gets too thick add water (or more oil)
At the end I reclaim any excess oil back into the spiced oil pot
*Up to you how much curry base you add here depending on how saucy you like things
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I made the Dave Smith base the other day
I used loads of oil (new and old)
When I had finished, there was plenty of spiced oil left over.
I put some of it, with another curry base, I had.
See:-
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3.0
It is so close to perfect
This old oniony oil really is it, when coupled with a good base.
There are lots of good base recipes on this site and your choice will be decided by what you are used to (I still rate KD too)
The smell & texture of the base can't be improved at home
I bought a curry last night and, with a? direct comparison, there is virtually no difference.
If I keep my curry base going each time, adding old to new,I will be able to get it right consistantly.
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Curry Base Recipe
This is adapted from curryhouse.co.uk, I would recommend this ebook to anyone, well worth the money.
Add remaining spiced oil (usually ~250ml) and top up with ground nut oil to ~500ml
Heat to medium and add 350gms of finely chopped onion
The oil will pretty much cover the onions, deep fry for about 10 minutes
i made this base on sunday then left it to flavour till tuesday, i find this base extremely sweet, i made the final curries using bruce edwards spice mixture and created a chicken madras (using darths precooked chicken), a spinach and mushroom bhajee and a phall sauce, now all recipes were good and the phall sauce one realy tasted like my BIR but all of the sauces had too much sweetness to them that i couldn't hide, not by pepper or other spices. so i think i'll go back to boiling the onions - even if it does stink the garage out....(oh yeah, forgot to say that my missus can't stand the smell of the onions cooking so i've recently been making the base sauce in the garage on my bbq side burner.
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(oh yeah, forgot to say that my missus can't stand the smell of the onions cooking so i've recently been making the base sauce in the garage on my bbq side burner.
Hi John,
Sound's a bit unfair to me!
Now that winter's upon us why not put a chair and telly in the garage and the missus can live there instead!!
Nothing like cooking in comfort!
Ray
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Yes john, looks like the missus will have to go, time for you to order a side dish (Geddit !!).
DARTH......... ;D
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Hmmmm,
Now that's not a bad idea.............for a starter!
Ray
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Now we can post picture again, heres some at various stages, this is the end base before I scoop the oil off the top
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Heres the last of my reclaimed oil before I start
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Heres the bits and bobs being essentially deep fried before pureeing
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Hi Mark,
That first picture of the base before the oil is scooped off looks remarkably like mine!
For me that means we are at least fairly close to the right solution.
Re-claimed oil as far as I am concerned has a big part to play in the curry mistery!!
Ray
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I have come to the conclusion that we are not all aiming for the same thing
At all the takeaways, I buy curry from, I sit and wait identifying the aromas coming from the kitchen.
The biggest waft, which also is the distinctive BIR smell, is the old oil being reheated.
It is also, half the flavour of the curry.
Anyone who doesn't find this to be true, is not chasing the same goal as I am
Either that or they are not getting the flavour into the oil
It is absolutely amazing that something, not mentioned in any curry books, is such a dominating factor in it's taste
It's not in any of Pat's books or the Curry Secret or the Secrets ebook.
There is no mention by Sonia Allison or Madhur either
Up until now I have also felt that a general spice mix, such as Bruce Edwards, was all you needed to make a good curry.
Boy, was I wrong!
I was given some of the spice mix from a takeaway
I had a really good curry base and I used these spices (with the veg vindaloo demo recipe I posted)
I can honestly say I have never made a better curry
It was absolutely incredible
It had the "yummy eat it all" flavour
It had that deep aroma
Fantastic
They told me that their mix has only five spices in
Turmeric paprika cummin coriander & curry powder
But I think the curry powder is this Basaar stuff, we've talked about
There are loads of the "basaars"
Natco make one
KIng of Spice make one (I've got that)
There are lots to try
Not all are hot, either
This restaurant spice mix is very mild
It has no chilli heat
So far I have not been able to duplicate it
Surely it can only be I am not using the right basaar?
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My Oil looks the same when i did it. :)
There is a really nice sweetness to the Bassar mix Ray sent me.
I think we are chasing slightly different tastes but we are all after that sort of Take-away style with just subtle variations on the same theme i mean we all love Curry i bet if i tasted many Curries from most of the members fave BIR's I'm sure i would comment that there was a similarity with most of then (well this is what i have found so far) with some that were just plain Bloody awful,there is a BIR near me & it sucks, all Garlic the rice is mushy & overcooked & the dishes have very little flavor(you know like a Curry cooked at home that went horribly wrong). There is another that makes a PHALL with so much Chillie powder that it tastes of Hot Chillied Gravy !!!
I have come to the point were its only a smell that i need to capture, pt the Curry in your mouth hold your Nose & really just taste it you'll discover you are closer than you think ;D.
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I have come to the conclusion that we are not all aiming for the same thing
But I think the curry powder is this Basaar stuff, we've talked about
There are loads of the "basaars"
Surely it can only be I am not using the right basaar?
Hi Pete,
I think you are quite right, we are not all aiming for the same thing. And why is that? Well................tonight I had a take-away from the closest place to me.
The food from here is a bit middle of the road but nice just the same. It is quite bland ( so it will appeal to everyone! ) and to me most dishes taste a bit the same. But there isn't a bit of re-claimed oil in sight! The oil is really clear like it has just come out of the bottle but there is still that underlying smokey taste we associate with used oil! It isn't strong but it is there just the same.
I think this taste comes from the oil in the original base they make rather than re-claimed oil used afterwards.
I think if we were all to meet up and bring say three of our favourite restaurant curries we would all be bringing pretty different dishes and this is what makes it difficult to reproduce our favourites...........we are all buying slightly different products in the first place.
The Basaar Mix is probably a part of the secret but I don't think it is the magical ingredient we are looking for, it is after all no more than a special blended curry powder.
The one I got and sent to a few on the site was very fiery to say the least ( did I send you any? Just ask and I will post you some. ). The brand was RMI foods ( Bradford ) and the pack has "Basaar Original, All-in-one, Special Pak Curry Powder" written on it and costs about ?3.00p. Like Darth says it has a sweetness to it and stinks out the house it is that powerful. But it is Dynamite!
I am not sure if it is widely used in restaurants. It is a bit of a hard thing to find in asian supermarkets. I will put the question about it's use to the Kushi Restaurant and let you know if they answer it.
From what I gather from my asian colleagues it is used more in "home cooking" than anything and only about a teaspoon or so is added to the pot.
Must go,
Work is calling..........................Yippee!
Ray
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I think this taste comes from the oil in the original base they make rather than re-claimed oil used afterwards.
That is a very good point
Perhaps that's it
Unless the curries really are very different
I can't speak for restaurants, where I have not seen them cook, but the ones round here don't hide where the oil comes from.
The first thing thaey do is drop the ladle into the curry base pot and scoop out a load of oil
They even use it from the deep pan fryer sometimes too
Try and get some of the curry base from your local
We can eliminate the questions if we do it by stages
I have had the base from mine and it is better than I can make
I know that
But my base is still a very good base
At least I know how close I am
I now have their spice mix
I must try and duplicate that too
With that I have had an amazing result
I can get all these basaar mixes at shops near me too
I think I saw about four different types
The one I glimpsed at the takeaway had a drawn picture of the world on it
The spice mix used for curries is definitely not hot though
That figures because they must use it for kormas as well as hotter curries (so they add the chilli later)
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Visited my favorite curry house last night and managed to get some base and spice mixture, the gravy taste kinda like a korma slightly creamy texture with sweetish flavour, but you can taste the fresh coriander. The only smell that i can get from the spice mixture is a hint of cummin, it's hard to believe that these 2 make up the madras that i ordered.
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Hi John,
Nice work, what are we looking at in your pictures, I take it the madras is at the top with the gravy bottom left, whats the one on the right? Also if they are open enough to give you some base and spice mix any chance they might tell you whats in them 8)
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If you follow my latest recipes (Vindalloo/Tindalloo or the Madras) the base Gravy comes out quite light like the pictures in Johns post,Yellowish & tasty on its own. :)
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Sorry everyone here is the links to the recipes with the same colour Base Gravy.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=673.0
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=674.0
;)
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Visited my favorite curry house last night and managed to get some base and spice mixture, the gravy taste kinda like a korma slightly creamy texture with sweetish flavour, but you can taste the fresh coriander. The only smell that i can get from the spice mixture is a hint of cummin, it's hard to believe that these 2 make up the madras that i ordered.
That's fantastic John!
Your base is far more yellow than the one I got
It is , however, very similar to the one from Bengal Cuisine
Can you taste the "taste" in the base
I can in mine, but I wondered if that was a constant in all bases
Is it similar to any base you have made?
I froze some of mine so I could see how close I was , when a made a new base
You said you could taste fresh coriander in it?
The spice mix is a real puzzle though
The mix I got was orange
I now believe it is very important to have this right
See if you can duplicate it or maybe get a "breakdown" from the restaurant
Nice pictures
Thanks
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I made this base again last night and did something a little different:
I always reserve a small pot of the last base to go into the new one, this time rather than bung it in after the puree stage I added it in a bit at a time to the frying onions, it gave off an incredible smell.
I havent yet made a curry with it but will report back when I do!
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Hi John,
Nice work, what are we looking at in your pictures, I take it the madras is at the top with the gravy bottom left, whats the one on the right? Also if they are open enough to give you some base and spice mix any chance they might tell you whats in them 8)
I tried, but they said it's taken 50years to perfect there recipe, they did confirm that onions/carrots/garlic/ginger and loads of fresh coriander were in the base, but wouldn't give up the spice mix recipe and only said that it's hand made by the chef.
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Yeah thats the usual sort of response you get from them :'(
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That's fantastic John!
Your base is far more yellow than the one I got
It is , however, very similar to the one from Bengal Cuisine
Can you taste the "taste" in the base
I can in mine, but I wondered if that was a constant in all bases
Is it similar to any base you have made?
I froze some of mine so I could see how close I was , when a made a new base
You said you could taste fresh coriander in it?
The spice mix is a real puzzle though
The mix I got was orange
I now believe it is very important to have this right
See if you can duplicate it or maybe get a "breakdown" from the restaurant
Nice pictures
Thanks
Pete, this takeaway is my absolute favourite, the place has the "smell" when you walk past during the day(closed) and in the evening you can smell it all around the area, the madras curry i got last night had the smell and taste but now 24hours later it just tastes like any other curry and the smell has gone, i will try reheating the curry to see if it comes back. I believe the smell is carried in the oil as my fingers smell of it (that sweet spicy alluring smell) so reheating may bring it to the air.
My base that i got from the takeaway has a very bir like taste to it and it's very nice on it's own, it has a taste of fresh coriander and i think coconut, it's like nothing i've made before but i will try Darths base during xmas and i will add a sachet of pataks creamed coconut that i got from tesco today, i'm also going to make a curry using the base and the spice mixture.
By the way, the spice mixture has large clumps of waht looks like paprika and i can see small green methi mixed in, im gona try and break it down more and do pics too.
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I put Paprika in both the Madras,Vindalloo & Tindalloo.
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John you picked up on something Ive mentioned several times.
How the smell disappears the next day.Why would that be ?
When i make a Curry that is not 100% BIR it tastes/smells about same the next day,but does get better the longer you keep it frozen.( a week later).
My local BIR has the opposite ,after freezing for a week it tastes bland.
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Just been tasting the base again and guess what i found:
Part of a Cardamom pod, i also found some seeds but i aint those.
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I've found Cardamom pod,Star anise,White Cumin seed & Mustard seed. :)
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I've found Cardamom pod,Star anise,White Cumin seed & Mustard seed. :)
Did you also get a sample of curry base from your local? tell me more....
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I've had the basic Curry Sauce that comes with a Biryani,not first stage Base gravy although if you follow my Recipes (see links above) you will find the Base gravy turns out the same colour as your photo's a golden Yellow & it is good enough to eat on its own,but there is an ingredient missing, it is really frustrating as I'm so sure I'm close to getting it 100% Right.
Not all my local BIR Dishes have the taste/smell im after so again i feel its an ingredient i've missed.
I'm hoping to go back within a week as Ive started the Ball rolling on cooking lessons & they are closing down in January for refurbishment so this could be an opportunity.
The seed in your picture looks rather odd for a Cardamom can you do a close picture ?
:)
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I tried doing a close up but me camera aint up to it, this cardamom must have been in the base when it was blended cos all that is left of this one is just one of the panels that makes up the pod, i think the other reason it looks odd is cos it's been stain with turmeric during the cooking process, which leads me to think maybe it was put in at the start.
I recon this will be another addition to the base when i get round to making it
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Sometimes i get the feeling these whole seeds are only put in to give a visual impression of quality & obviously to give the customers of the BIR that feeling that they are actually using authentic Indian Spices as i think they can get all they need from fully ground, a few seeds here & there is not going to make that much difference IMHO. :)
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Sometimes i get the feeling these whole seeds are only put in to give a visual impression of quality & obviously to give the customers of the BIR that feeling that they are actually using authentic Indian Spices as i think they can get all they need from fully ground, a few seeds here & there is not going to make that much difference IMHO. :)
I must respectfuly disagree, The base sauce that i got from the bir was straight from the big bubbling pot of gravy on the cooker top and it was this base sauce that i found the cardamom, when a cardamom pod is cooked in liquid i will become soft and when it is blended it will loose all the seeds through out the liquid and add flavour to the base sauce, whether you use 1 or 21 cardamoms you will still add flavour to the base.
The bir's use whole cardamom in there pilau rice for flavour so they have them on site.
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The base sauce that i got from the bir was straight from the big bubbling pot of gravy on the cooker top...
John
Are you sure they didn't add anything to the base sauce, out of your sight, before it was handed to you?
I asked for some base sauce from a take-away a few months back. The container was filled direct from the large pot but then the container was taken into a back room, when I think some fenugreek or coriander was added and who knows what else? Garam masala perhaps, for all I know?
Regards
George
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Hi John,,through this something has dawned on me.
1.Has anyone used several whole Spices instead of just ground & when you blend do you end up with some fragments in the Curry like we have both found.
2. And by using whole Spices do you end up with a different flavor. IE with our finding of Cardamom Pods,i find whole pods have a much more powerfull smell & flavor,this i also find of many whole Spices.
I've tended to add at the very end perhaps i should put the Spices at the Base making stage &/OR the Curry making stage. This is something worth investigating over the Christmass period. ;)
Have we inadvertently stumbled upon another way to get a small increment closer to copying our BIR's 100%. ;)
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I've had the basic Curry Sauce that comes with a Biryani,not first stage Base gravy
If you could get hold of the restaurant base, you could tell how close your base is.
My aim is to make the curries just how a restaurant does
Maybe we will never get the full story on everything, but if we examine the evidence in pieces, it may do the job.
We need to be able to copy the spice mix and need samples of the precooked ingredients too.
[I tried, but they said it's taken 50years to perfect there recipe, they did confirm that onions/carrots/garlic/ginger and loads of fresh coriander were in the base, but wouldn't give up the spice mix recipe and only said that it's hand made by the chef.
Well I've got my best results ever, but the sample base I got, is still better than mine
I've been trying fifteen years, I don't know if I could get it in another 35
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I wouldn't be to disheartened Pete,I've been making Curries for many years, but as a serious BIR curry maker for just under two! ;D
I'm incredibly happy ;D :D with my own personal progress & feel confident it will improve.
I've got the Base colour right (Thanks to my local BIR giving some helpfull info) they have more than likely left out their Chefs Spice mix.
Question : Is this the only missing component,not Curry powder,what is their definition of Curry powder is it just a blend of particular Spices which make the Curries a little more individual to various BIR's across the country ? This could be why we are all struggling to get it 100% right, i would seem to be a very logical conclusion.
This brings up another good question the next time we are in our local "could you recommend a Spice mixture i could use to make my home-made Curries taste better"? ;D
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I've found Cardamom pod,Star anise,White Cumin seed & Mustard seed. :)
This is getting like the thread when someone said they found a used plaster in their curry :o
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I've been trying fifteen years, I don't know if I could get it in another 35
But presumably Pete you've made almost all of your progress in the last 1-2 years?
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I asked my local takeaway about his spice mixture and it was pretty much the Bruce Edwards, I asked him about curry powder saying I just use rajah madras and he said thats fine you can use any. I have to also say though that this takeaway is average (not bad, just average).
My local BIR however is very good and when I asked them about their spice mixture he came up with the standard response "It is a secret blend only the chef knows, hand ground on the backsides of virgins from Baltistan" etc etc
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"It is a secret blend only the chef knows, hand ground on the backsides of virgins from Baltistan" etc etc
Ahhh, so that's the secret! All this time I've been using virgins from Birmingham and you know how hard they are to come by. No wonder I can't achieve the results I want, It's so obvious when it's pointed out to you. :D
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They had to cancel the nativity play round here because they couldn't find three wise men and a virgin so I have got no chance of making a genuine BIR have I ???
Ray
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Yes & don't forget the Battery operated Melon with the real Hair !! :P
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But presumably Pete you've made almost all of your progress in the last 1-2 years?
Yes, since I got into the kitchens, and also recipes and advice from this forum.
Before that I made no real progress
It's just so frustrating, that I am so close to a perfect base, and have hit a metaphoric wall.
I assume that this is the .01% that Darth has problems with too.
Unfortunately, I believe this small percentage to be the best bit.
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Mark with the greatest respect for the work you have been doing in this forum, I would like to remind you that I posted that "the spiced oil" was the key to making a good BIR curry. I have been using this method for years, taking the excess oil from my base and re-using it each time I made another. Obviously the smell and taste of the oil can change from base to base - i.e if I use carrot and green pepper in the base I get a different aromo and taste than if I use say just the basic onions, garlic etc with a few whole spices in it. Then of course if you make a curry with the spiced oil (a little more than usual) and then take some off and reuse that it turns out even better, that I can promise you, I know some are sceptical of this procedure, but I am quite sure that in restaurants there is contamination with pans and spoons used. (Not too hot on the washing up) Keep the good work up, I look forward to your post.
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Hi curryqueen
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?I know you have championed the "spiced oil" theory
The trouble is that, most people would not do this at home,on health grounds
I know that you are right though
I've seen it done in takeaways, but I don't believe it is done everywhere.
I don't think Darth's local restaurant does it & wasn't common practice at "Pacmans" restaurants either.
He worked there and they always used ghee
Using ghee just isn't the flavour I'm after
But maybe that's because my curry base could be better
It's nearly a year since we went to Bengal Cuisine
I wonder if they are still giving the demos?
In the end it was just you, me and Grimmo who went
I was hoping we would exhaust their recipes
But we only got about eight recipes out of it.
Do you still make the curry gravy they showed you?
Was that made using old oil?
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Hi Pete,
with regard to using ghee, I think that most restaurants use this in the pilau rice and naan breads that they make. IF they use ghee then the cooking tends to be more towards "authentic" rather than BIR. There are a lot or restaurants who cook authentic and this where so many people are getting confused between the two. With regards to the Bengal I have not made their gravy since the very first time. I tend to use a basic one with carrot, green pepper and maybe some celery if I have it at the time. Cross contamination can be happening in restaurants without them really realising that it is happening. Didn't someone post recently that they ordered a couple of dishes and they didn't even clean the pan inbetween cooking them. When chef is making a curry, say a vindaloo and they are putting the spoon they are using into the pot of spiced oil, this is creating a cross between all dishes that are cooked - lots of different flavours going into the pot of oil. Also does chefs spoon get washed everytime he makes a dish. I can't see that it does in a restaurant they is very busy. I take it you have had your vindaloo over christmas? Bought or made Pete
With regard to health grounds I think these restaurants do almost what they want until such time as they are caught.
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? I take it you have had your vindaloo over christmas?
Bought or made Pete?
I got some frozen vindaloos out
I'm dying to try out some new recipes, but I am getting too many complaints about the smells.
Everybody's coats and scarves are stinking of curry.
I want my own little curry hut at the bottom of the garden!
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I must be the luckiest guy here ,my wife doesn't eat Curry & has no complaints about me cooking my 15 Onion base & numerous Curries. ;D
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Mark with the greatest respect for the work you have been doing in this forum, I would like to remind you that I posted that "the spiced oil" was the key to making a good BIR curry.?
Yes I remember the thread well ;D
I used spiced oil quite a bit a while ago, not sure why I didnt continue, I think it may have been because I found it tricky to reclaim the oil from the base. Anyway I have no such problems now and use it all the time
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Having gone back to this re-claimed Oil method & kd's recipe just to check if i missed anything, i have to be very honest & say if i were to buy this from a BIR i would be very disappointed,it lacks the full flavor of the 99.9 % recipe i will stick to it until i glean more info from my local fave/BIR. :)
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The base sauce that i got from the bir was straight from the big bubbling pot of gravy on the cooker top...
I asked for some base sauce from a take-away a few months back. The container was filled direct from the large pot but then the container was taken into a back room, when I think some fenugreek or coriander was added and who knows what else? Garam masala perhaps, for all I know?
Regards
George
Hi george, next time tell them that you really love there food and you want some of there base so you can try to re-create that dish at home, that way you will get the base sauce and then you can ask for some spice mixture to go with it, thats what i did and i got 1 tray of base sauce that was served up infront of me and sealed, i also got a 1/4 of a tray of spice mix that was taken from one of the bowls near the other spices right next to the cooker, this is an open type of kitchen too so there is no mistake that they gave me exactly what they cook with..
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...next time tell them that you really love there food and you want some of there base so you can try to re-create that dish at home...
John
Good idea, but unfortunately there are at least two hurdles in this case! (a) The end result curries from this take away are all about the lowest quality I've had anywhere. Thinking of it, I don't know why I thought the base sauce would be of much interest. One factor, though, is that their curries are swimming in so much oil (even more than normal), that one could perhaps use their curries just as a starter-source of spiced oil! (b) the take-away is near where some relatives live and nowhere near me, so I don't go there very often and don't know the chefs, to be in a good position to ask for any favours.
Regards
George
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I made this base again last night and did something a little different:
I always reserve a small pot of the last base to go into the new one, this time rather than bung it in after the puree stage I added it in a bit at a time to the frying onions, it gave off an incredible smell.
I havent yet made a curry with it but will report back when I do!
I had family over on Friday night and used all of this base cooking 2 dishes, a CTM and a chicken balti. The balti was absolutely first rate and Im convinced that the extra frying off of the last of my previous base made quite a difference. If anyone hasnt tried this base yet I would strongly advise you to as I think it is near perfect.
Also see this post for an update: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=602.msg5523#msg5523
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If anyone hasnt tried this base yet I would strongly advise you to as I think it is near perfect.
Also see this post for an update: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=602.msg5523#msg5523
Mark
Which base are you referring to, please? Is that the curry house one for subscribers only and, is it to be found anywhere here at cr0.co.uk?
I went to your update at "msg5523" and it starts off half way through with: " Add remaining spiced oil (usually ~250ml) and top up with ground nut oil to ~500ml". Is the entire recipe anywhere, so it's easy to use, please?
Regards
George
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Hi George, Its all in this thread and mostly in the areas titled in bold (it is a variation of the curryhouse.co.uk members area base)
cheers
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I fear I'm too lazy to find or rebuild the recipe. It's my weakness, my fault and my loss. I fear this forum is getting too much like hard work, given my laziness, a bit like finding a needle in a haystack - information overload, layer upon layer of amendments, comments, changes, variations, updates, etc. It's no one's fault but just inevitable I guess, when there's no "manager", QA, editor or anything! Too bad.
Regards
George
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When I get a mo I'll compile it all into one post :)
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When I get a mo I'll compile it all into one post :)
Mark
Many thanks. I think the main gap in my knowledge is the underlying base sauce recipe from the members only area at curry house co.uk.
I haven't signed up since I have too many base sauces and other recipes piled up, ready to try, without needing to buy any more recipes. I respect fully any decision not to write out curry house recipes at this forum, in keeping with the request on the curry house web site not to reprint any of his recipes.
Regards
George