Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: Razor on August 11, 2011, 10:54 PM
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Hi chaps.
So, over recent weeks, it has been debated in various threads, which method of cooking onions, makes for a sweeter base!
The thought by some, myself included, was that boiling onions whole made for a sweeter base. Others believed that it is the length of time that the onions are boiling for that determines how sweet the base will turn out!
Well tonight, I put both theories to the test using Chewytikka's 3 hour base recipe.
I basically, used 2kg of onions, as per recipe, chopped 1 kg and left 1 kg whole, then divided the rest of the ingredients 50/50.
After 1 hr, I checked how soft the whole onions were by putting a spoon through one, it was very soft and well cooked. Using the whole onions as the gauge, I then added the tom puree and mixed powder and continued cooking for a further hour.
2 hours in, it was time to turn off both pans. I let them cool for 15 minutes, and gave each pan a good stir. Both pans were identical, specifically bought for the task, and both pans were cooked on the medium size rings on the hob (gas) Now, the pan that contained the chopped onions, had reduced significantly more than the pan with whole onions in? That was a shock as I somehow expected the complete opposite. I should add that I had by now, broke down the whole onions to roughly the same size as the chopped onions, with my chef's spoon. I increased the volume of water in the 'chopped onion' pan to bring it to the same consistency as the other pan.
I then blitzed each pan for a good 5 minutes with my stick blender, added 500ml of boiling water to each pan, returned to the hob and simmered each base for a further 30 mins, removing any scum that formed. Finally, I passed both bases through the sieve, and removed any fibrous matter left behind.
Ok, here's the acid test.
I first tasted the chopped onion base. Smooth, flavoursome and quite sweet!
I then tasted the whole onion base. Smooth, flavoursome and quite sweet!
This went on for about 2 - 3 minutes. I concluded that no one base was any sweeter than the other, and infact, both base's were 'BIR' sweet!
I asked the wife to have a taste of each base, (she didn't have a clue which was which or why I'd been out and spent 40 notes on two pans, when I have a massive pot already)
Interestingly, she picked out the 'whole onion' base as being sweeter. Not convinced by her verdict, because I may have given the game away, I asked her to turn around, and spoon fed her each of the bases. Again, she picked out the whole onion base as being the sweetest!
So, I still don't know. In my mind, there was no difference but the wife was very definite in her choice.
Going to cook with both tomorrow night, just a plain chicken curry, and see if I can pick one from the other.
Ray :)
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So, I still don't know. In my mind, there was no difference but the wife was very definite in her choice.
Going to cook with both tomorrow night, just a plain chicken curry, and see if I can pick one from the other.
Ray :)
Now that's what i call dedication to the cause Ray. I am sure those new pans will get put through their paces time after time though ;D. Maybe you couldn't taste the difference that the wife picked up on because, as we all know, when you're cooking, the senses tend to be blunted by the cooking process :-\. Try it cold tomorrow and see if the difference is more discernable then. Will be interesting to hear the results of your plain chicken curry cook off though ;D.
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Hi CH,
Maybe you couldn't taste the difference that the wife picked up on because, as we all know, when you're cooking, the senses tend to be blunted by the cooking process :-\. Try it cold tomorrow and see if the difference is more discernable then.
That thought had crossed my mind too, and I did spend the whole time in the kitchen while the bases were cooking. I was preparing rice, chicken tikka, seekh kebab and gg paste. The senses could have definitely been dulled somewhat!
Don't worry CH, not forgot about the NIS, but I don't think I'll get a true perspective if I try a hot curry for the test.
Ray :)
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Very interesting and a great post - i have done exactly the same and i cannot tell the difference - however i did not have a third party tasting! which might have indicated one way or another
best, Rich
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I think your wife is messing with your head because you spent 40 quid on more 'curry kit' ;D
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Hi Chaps,
So about 5 minutes ago, I had a taste of each base sauce, cold, as suggested,
Chopped Onion base. Smooth, flavoursome and sweet.
Whole Onion base. Smooth, Flavoursome and sweeter!
Not by a great margin but definitely sweeter and maybe a tad more savoury but I put that down to adding more water to the chopped onion base as per my opening post.
Final test now, is to cook an Identical dish using both bases as I promised last night but, sorry guy's, I'm going to renege on this one, I just fancy a jal frezi tonight.
Ray :)
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Hi CH,
Don't worry CH, not forgot about the NIS, but I don't think I'll get a true perspective if I try a hot curry for the test.
Ray :)
Glad to hear you haven't forgotten Ray. Am looking forward to your feedback. Scale back the chilli to your taste mate. It's the overall taste of the dish, not the heat that matters ;D. Enjoy the jalfrezi. Thanks for conducting the whole onion vs chopped onion experiment. To me it makse perfect sense to cook them whole. Why waste time chopping when the result is the same or maybe even better :D. Waiting for your feedback on the finished dish with the two bases.
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Onions and....
I have been in many a BIR kitchen and in the olden days (early 80's for me) the base sauce was always cooked with whole onions, Oh so many chances to ask so many questions wasted in my drunken youth!.
So why would they take the time and trouble to peel an onion leaving it whole?. It seems cutting through the onion starts a chemical reaction that makes them bitter, so that could be the answer.......But I remember my Nan peeling onions in this way, did she know about this chemical reaction or was it because its the way she was shown how to peel them?. I also use whole onions in my base but by FAR the biggest factor that will effect the sweetness is the age of the onion (OK some would say variety but the kitchens I have been in all use standard brown cooking onions usually British) I remember once ordering a Jalfrezi from one of my usual TA's the manager told "the the chef apologises if the dish is a little sweeter than normal as he is using NEW SEASON ONIONS and will adjust the spice to compliment the flavour" he said when the new season onions come in they mix them with older onions but on the last delivery both lots of onions were new season.
And it was very sweet compared to usual.
New season onions are out late August early September.
If you can buy from a farm shop all the better as you will know how old they are.
26% of the world's onions are grown in China!.
Using fresh new season onions that have not been force dried will result in a very sweet base and the difference's in the finished dish is immediately noticeable.
I hope this helps some of you out on the quest, it may not be the final piece of the jigsaw but I think it can be an important factor in creating "the taste". :)
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[T]he manager told me "the the chef apologises if the dish is a little sweeter than normal as he is using NEW SEASON ONIONS and will adjust the spice to compliment the flavour" ...
Now that was a chef, not just an over-elevated kitchen hand. I wish I knew Indian restaurants where they still had chefs of his quality.
** Phil.
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Onions and....
Hi daddyl
Welcome to the forum, good post and very accurate to my experience.
Infact in July, customers at two of my friends restaurants. were
commenting that their usual curries were too sweet, I never asked
how they corrected the problem, but lately I use cauliflower greens to add an extra savoury edge.
Still on onions, another friend who has an allotment, who I've had
some amazing produce from, told me that he lets his onions dry out
for at least five weeks before he bagged them. I'm pretty clueless
but I would love the opportunity to grow my own veg.
But allotments around here are strictly deadman's shoes.
cheers Chewy
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Here is the result of another test -
Indeed when you cut onions open you get the white juice starting to come out - that is the start of the chemical reaction with the air.
When i cut the top and tail off the onion to start to peel it and then take the outer skin off - i have started dunking the onions in a sink full of water (could be a pan full of water etc). This does stop the reaction in the air. I cut the onions in half only before boiling them in my base.
IT WAS SLIGHTLY SWEETER THAN USUAL!
I didn't put them in whole just because of the space issue in the pan - i did 15 kilos of onions!
best, Rich
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a yake away for around 2 years andadded using somthing else they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a yake away for around 2 years andadded using somthing else they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
Hi ifindforu
nice to hear from you.
I have been using your base gravy recipe for a very long time now and I still believe yours is up there with the very best gravy recipies on this forum ;D
cheers
paul
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Hi ifindforu,
Thanks for your insight there, greatly appreciated. Would you be able to attempt to explain to us the word and the method that you mention that has not been described in the forum, and what you witnessed when they were finishing off the guravy to get the guravy taste.
It certainly would be great for us to learn more and hopefully put an end to us all trying different things that aren't really going to get us any closer to the taste we are all striving to recreate.
Many thanks,
Mark
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a yake away for around 2 years andadded using somthing else they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
Hi ifindforu
nice to hear from you.
I have been using your base gravy recipe for a very long time now and I still believe yours is up there with the very best gravy recipies on this forum ;D
cheers
paul
nice to here you liked my base ,but things have moved on since then and ive learnt that the method i used was wrong Iwill be posting a new base of which ive learned in my local takeaway in which i work so all will be revealed thanks ifindforu
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a take away for around 2 years and they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
Hi ifindforu
nice to hear from you.
I have been using your base gravy recipe for a very long time now and I still believe yours is up there with the very best gravy recipies on this forum ;D
cheers
paul
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nice to here you liked my base ,but things have moved on since then and ive learnt that the method i used was wrong Iwill be posting a new base of which ive learned in my local takeaway in which i work so all will be revealed thanks ifindforu
Hi Ifindforu. I read the thread on your base a little while ago and from the reports I decided i must give it a go, along with several other bases ;D. I now have only two more i want to try before i get to yours. I will now hang fire in light of your revised recipe coming out. I look forward to all being revealed, as i am sure many others are ;).
Good work
Dave
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I'm also waiting with baited breath on this one....
There is a curry competition at work next week so this new base recipe could be ideal if it gets posted before next Wednesday.
Thanks in advance to ifindforu. ;)
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i'll tell you something it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a take away for around 2 years and added using something else they cook the onions any way. but i will tell you something, yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used i'm surprised no one has mentioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the secret to get the guravy taste and no Bangladeshi man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing off the guravy, but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
wa alaykumu s-salaamu wa rahmatu l-laahi wa barakaatuh, ifindforu. May I ask if you are planning to disclose what this secret is, or are we condemned to futile experimentation for all eternity ?
** Phil.
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a yake away for around 2 years andadded using somthing else they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
Well, reading this post through again, It sounds as if we are doing it all wrong. They do add a sweetness to the base, Our method of cooking is all wrong, and something is added at the end of cooking the base,
So now I'm intrigued, Can't wait for your answer infindforu ;D
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a yake away for around 2 years andadded using somthing else they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
Well, reading this post through again, It sounds as if we are doing it all wrong. They do add a sweetness to the base, Our method of cooking is all wrong, and something is added at the end of cooking the base,
So now I'm intrigued, Can't wait for your answer infindforu ;D
everyone thinks that adding goor to the base sweetens it,well in a sence it does but only to give a balance to the taste,just the same as adding salt dont forget coconut milk powder or coconut cream block
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ill tell you somthing it does not matter how you cut your onions the sweetness is I have worked in a yake away for around 2 years andadded using somthing else they cook the onions any way.but i will tell you somthing,yes there is a secret on how to make what they call guravy and also the method used im supprised no one has mensioned it on here I speak a little Bengali and there is a certain word they use that word is the seceret to get the guravy taste and no bengalidesh man will explain it to you.I happened to be there one day when they were finishing of the guravy,but just hoping to stop you wasting your time with the different ways with the onions
assalam alykum
Well, reading this post through again, It sounds as if we are doing it all wrong. They do add a sweetness to the base, Our method of cooking is all wrong, and something is added at the end of cooking the base,
So now I'm intrigued, Can't wait for your answer infindforu ;D
everyone thinks that adding goor to the base sweetens it,well in a sence it does but only to give a balance to the taste,just the same as adding salt dont forget coconut milk powder or coconut cream block
by the waybut if you think you are doing it all wrong then that is your though ,look at JB curry base that is the only one on here that is nearly there just a few tweaks and youll get it
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Thanks ifindforu
Q:- What is "goor"
HS
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Hi Ifindforu,
Is there any chance that you could just tell us where we are going wrong?
everyone thinks that adding goor to the base sweetens it,well in a sence it does but only to give a balance to the taste,just the same as adding salt dont forget coconut milk powder or coconut cream block
Goor? does that mean sugar?
Ray :)
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Hi Ifindforu,
Is there any chance that you could just tell us where we are going wrong?
everyone thinks that adding goor to the base sweetens it,well in a sence it does but only to give a balance to the taste,just the same as adding salt dont forget coconut milk powder or coconut cream block
Goor? does that mean sugar?
Ray :)
Its Jaggery Goor, unrefined palm sugar
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Thanks Mick, thought so.
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by the waybut if you think you are doing it all wrong then that is your though ,look at JB curry base that is the only one on here that is nearly there just a few tweaks and youll get it
Blimey at least I'm doing something right!!! Thanks for the endorsement Ifindforu,I do add a touch of coconut block in my base as per your original recipe.Must get myself some jaggery(never heard it called goor by the way).
I'm still puzzled as to why my base nearly hits the mark;as I've said before the base sauces(including mine) are all very similar on this site...what makes mine stand out?? Ifindforu it would be great for everyone here if you can post a revised recipe for your base sauce including any new or mystery ingredients,it would make the members very happy on here!!! Thanks Jb
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Hi JB
Just read your base sauce recipe, and like you said not a lot different from the other recipes on here except for the 5 tablespoons yogurt, and maybe the lemon, so it would be nice if ifindforu could explain it a bit clearer, cos maybe I'm a bit thick ???
HS
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Is it me or is it just a series of rhymes and riddles and no real definitive answers being given from someone who works in a takeaway ???
Barry
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Blimey at least I'm doing something right!!! Thanks for the endorsement Ifindforu,I do add a touch of coconut block in my base as per your original recipe.Must get myself some jaggery(never heard it called goor by the way).
I'm still puzzled as to why my base nearly hits the mark;as I've said before the base sauces(including mine) are all very similar on this site...what makes mine stand out?? Ifindforu it would be great for everyone here if you can post a revised recipe for your base sauce including any new or mystery ingredients,it would make the members very happy on here!!! Thanks Jb
Good on you mate. Jaggery to be had from the general store next to Spice of India in loads of different forms too :D. Have you been back to Preem since last year?
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Is it me or is it just a series of rhymes and riddles and no real definitive answers being given from someone who works in a takeaway ???
Barry
Hi Barry
It is becoming a bit of a tease to say the least.
Cheers,
Paul
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Blimey at least I'm doing something right!!! Thanks for the endorsement Ifindforu,I do add a touch of coconut block in my base as per your original recipe.Must get myself some jaggery(never heard it called goor by the way).
I'm still puzzled as to why my base nearly hits the mark;as I've said before the base sauces(including mine) are all very similar on this site...what makes mine stand out?? Ifindforu it would be great for everyone here if you can post a revised recipe for your base sauce including any new or mystery ingredients,it would make the members very happy on here!!! Thanks Jb
Good on you mate. Jaggery to be had from the general store next to Spice of India in loads of different forms too :D. Have you been back to Preem since last year?
Hi Curryhell haven't tried that shop usually go to the one up from Brainwood's...like an Aladin's cave of spices!!
Haven't been back to the Preem but I def will soon.Next time I go I will try and find out as much as I can about his base sauce and spice mixes etc.
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Is it me or is it just a series of rhymes and riddles and no real definitive answers being given from someone who works in a takeaway ???
Barry
Maybe ifindforu dosen't really know anything at all, and just having us on. but only time will tell.
HS
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Maybe ifindforu dosen't really know anything at all, and just having us on. but only time will tell.
Time may not be given the opportunity to tell if IFFU takes offence at remarks such as these and decides to stop sharing his knowledge with us. Would that really benefit anyone ?
** Phil.
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What is offensive about my remark then Phil, The key word in my sentence is "Maybe" Which means that I don't really know.
HS
And if he does know where we are going wrong (If we are), Then why not post it, and be done with it
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What is offensive about my remark then Phil, The key word in my sentence is "Maybe" Which means that I don't really know.
Exactly. You don't know. So why suggest that perhaps IFFU "dosen't really know anything at all" and thereby risk causing offence ? If the bloke standing next to you in the pub were to look at you, then turn to his girlfriend and say loudly (so that everyone can hear) "Maybe he's a raving poofter", would /you/ not take offence ?
This forum benefits from /everyone's/ contributions, and we are each capable of deciding for ourselves whose advice is based on genuine knowledge, expertise and experience, and who just wants to make themselves look more knowledgeable than they really are; casting doubts on another member's knowledge is neither helpful nor constructive, and may even result in that member taking offence and deciding to leave CR0, which would benefit no-one.
** Phil.
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What is offensive about my remark then Phil, The key word in my sentence is "Maybe" Which means that I don't really know.
Exactly. You don't know. So why suggest that perhaps IFFU "dosen't really know anything at all" and thereby risk causing offence ? If the bloke standing next to you in the pub were to look at you, then turn to his girlfriend and say loudly (so that everyone can hear) "Maybe he's a raving poofter", would /you/ not take offence ?
This forum benefits from /everyone's/ contributions, and we are each capable of deciding for ourselves whose advice is based on genuine knowledge, expertise and experience, and who just wants to make themselves look more knowledgeable than they are; casting doubts on another member's knowledge is neither helpful nor constructive, and may even result in that member taking offence and deciding to leave CR0, which would benefit no-one.
** Phil.
Sorry Phil, don't drink,(You are assuming that I drink, But you don't know) so would not be in the pub in the first place :D
And if we are doing it wrong (the base that is) Why dont he post the correct way, and be done with it?
don't see any sense in all this pussyfooting around
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I wouldn't worry folks - I think he has pretty thick skin.
And no I don't think that we are all doing it wrong. Different restaurants and TAs have different recipes and techniques. He may reveal another recipe or technique. I hope he does but I'm not convinced it will be what I'm looking for.
Paul
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Sorry Phil, don't drink,(You are assuming that I drink, But you don't know) so would not be in the pub in the first place :D
Neither do I (see my posts about Alkoholfrei beers with curry), but that doesn't stop me meeting friends in a pub if that's where they want to meet (since the smoking ban, that is : no way would I meet them there before that).
And if we are doing it wrong (the base that is) Why dont he post the correct way, and be done with it?
don't see any sense in all this pussyfooting around
That's a perfectly reasonable question, and I asked much the same (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6035.msg61576#msg61576) only a day or two ago. I see no problem with challenging questions, but challenging assertions ("maybe he doesn't know anything at al", or "maybe he's a poofter") can (quite reasonably, IMHO) cause offence.
** Phil.
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I wouldn't worry folks - I think he has pretty thick skin.
And no I don't think that we are all doing it wrong. Different restaurants and TAs have different recipes and techniques. He may reveal another recipe or technique. I hope he does but I'm not convinced it will be what I'm looking for.
Paul
Hi Paul
I didn't mean any offence anyway, It was just the way it was taken. :D
HS
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Are you refering to Mr Singh's; the one with the veg outside? If you think his is good go to the one next to spice - proper aladins cave. And if you want halal chicken at
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Are you refering to Mr Singh's; the one with the veg outside? If you think his is good go to the one next to spice - proper aladins cave. And if you want halal chicken at
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That's the one Mr Singh's couldn't remember the name,it's been there for years from what I remember.I will definetely have a look in the other ones.
It certainly has been there for years, 30+ in fact and it used to contain much more than it does nowadays. His samosas and bahjis are to die for :-*. I hear he does a damn good curry as well and he is such gentleman. Let me know how you find the others. The one next to the phoenix is very obliging too. For fresh stuff, if it isn't on show, ask as they may have it out the back.
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A few weeks ago I tried the method of using whole onions to make my base, where I would normally chop them into segments. Cooked in my Instant Pot for 45 mins on high pressure, to ensure the onions were as soft as can be. The base did come out lovely and sweet, and from memory sweeter than I would normally expect (so not a highly scientific test!).
Given it is less work in terms of chopping onions and the curries I made were lovely I will definitely stick to this method in future.
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I suppose the only advantages to chopping them is making the size more flexible to getting them in and secondly if not more importantly to check you haven't got any bad ones with rot in the middle, for that reason me thinks i will chop :tears:
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Nice to see Alchy :)
I also try to limit chopping of onions. Like Mickyp, a cut or two, just to make sure they are not rotten in the middle, and then in to the pot :)
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Nice to see Alchy :)
Good point JT, tis nice to see a name from the past, waves to Alchy
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Alchemist, Good to see your still learning authentic BIR methods
Are you another refugee from the Les Jones copy site?
Whole Onions, bit of a no brainer really.
My fine example here:
https://youtu.be/_Xz-x3OGXoE
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Thanks for the welcome back guys :-)
I am indeed a refugee of the Les Jone forum, won't go into details and rake up bad blood, but in the end I had had enough and was glad to be expelled :-)
Good to see your video Chewy using the whole onion technique. I have tried to look into the science behind it and there is something around a chemical reaction happening once you slice into an onion, so assume this technique relates to not starting that chemical reaction off prior to cooking the onions?
Anyway, although not a game changer in terms of base gravies, it is something I will continue to use, even with the risk of the odd bad onion!
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Nice one Alchemist.
There are no scientists in BIR kitchens :smile2:
Just lots of 50ltr stock pots full of whole onions.
N.B. They still have to top, tail and peel the onions.
So any centre rot is glaringly obvious.
My friends call them Tossers, which I still find funny. :smiling eyes:
cheers, look forward to you input.