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Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: George on February 14, 2012, 09:01 PM

Title: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: George on February 14, 2012, 09:01 PM
So it was veg ghee then,I take it Az uses butter ghee for something then?? Maybe brushing naan breads???  Was it veg ghee that went into the massla paste and gravy then??? 

Was definitely vege ghee into the masala paste.

Rather than put a damper on all the enthusiasm within the cooking lesson thread, I thought I'd start a new thread here.

Be careful if using vegetable ghee. It's risky stuff:

"Indian restaurants and some households may use hydrogenated vegetable oil (also known as vanaspati, dalda, or "vegetable ghee") in place of ghee because of its lower cost. This "vegetable ghee" may contain trans fat. Trans fats are increasingly linked to serious chronic health conditions..."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee)
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on February 14, 2012, 09:32 PM
"Indian restaurants and some households may use hydrogenated vegetable oil (also known as vanaspati, dalda, or "vegetable ghee") in place of ghee because of its lower cost. This "vegetable ghee" may contain trans fat. Trans fats are increasingly linked to serious chronic health conditions..."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghee)
But do please bear in mind that Wikipaedia is a Wiki, not an Encyclopaedia.  The same article states "In France it is called beurre noisette due to its nutty flavor", which suggests that the author(s) has/have never experienced both.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: curryhell on February 14, 2012, 09:56 PM
The pro's and cons of the use of vege ghee vs butter ghee have been discussed in a couple of threads already on the forum. See the roshney chicken thread which you contributed to George. Whatever oil we use won't be healthy unless you want your dish tainted with coconut :o
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: PaulP on February 14, 2012, 10:15 PM
I have to agree with George regarding vegetable ghee. It really is nasty stuff due to the hydrogenated and trans fats which are far worse than saturated fat for your heart and arteries.

If you like the ghee taste I would mix a couple of teaspoons of quality butter ghee with whatever vegetable oil you normally use. I do this myself sometimes and for some dishes I use pure butter ghee.

http://begumskitchen.com/GoodGhee.aspx (http://begumskitchen.com/GoodGhee.aspx)

I don't mean to be a party pooper but there is really no question that veg ghee is bad news.

Cheers,

Paul
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: ELW on February 14, 2012, 10:21 PM
I have to agree with George regarding vegetable ghee. It really is nasty stuff due to the hydrogenated and trans fats which are far worse than saturated fat for your heart and arteries.

If you like the ghee taste I would mix a couple of teaspoons of quality butter ghee with whatever vegetable oil you normally use. I do this myself sometimes and for some dishes I use pure butter ghee.

http://begumskitchen.com/GoodGhee.aspx (http://begumskitchen.com/GoodGhee.aspx)

I don't mean to be a party pooper but there is really no question that veg ghee is bad news.

Cheers,

Paul

It's true enough paulp, although I think we should go all in with this, then work back the way. The Glasgow bir's have huge veg ghee buckets in view everywhere, they even marinate chicken & make spiced onions in the tubs once empty! The buckets have Cholesterol Free stamped on them, as it's reputation arrives well ahead of it. I think it features more than may be good for us as well
ELW
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: natterjak on February 14, 2012, 10:25 PM
Although Az uses veg ghee in his restaurant I don't think there was any suggestion that it's a vital factor in producing the correct taste and I can't see that there will be a lot of variation in flavour of the final dish whatever oil or ghee was used. Personally I'll carry on using veg oil as I don't fancy veg ghee.
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: curryhell on February 14, 2012, 10:30 PM
Too much of anything isn't good for you. Everything in moderation. Paulp its there any concrete evidence that this stuff is worse for you than any other standard oil or cooking fat that you are awar ???e of please? I can then attempt to weigh up the risks. I've never cooked with veg ghee. I now have some so I can make a comparison to see if the risk is worthwhile
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: Peripatetic Phil on February 14, 2012, 10:36 PM
I can't see that there will be a lot of variation in flavour of the final dish whatever oil or ghee was used.
Can't agree with you there, Natterjak.  Butter ghee definitely imparts a distinctive flavour to the finished dish, just as do (say) olive oil or mustard oil.  I would agree if you said "you probably can't tell the difference in the final dish between (say) rapeseed oil and rice-bran oil", but they are already fairly close on the taste spectrum -- once you get to the outliers such as butter ghee or olive oil, I believe that they will definitely make their presence known.

** Phil.
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: ELW on February 14, 2012, 10:39 PM
I've never cooked with veg ghee. I
Me neither, but I've eaten plenty. I'm not going to deviate from a genuine bir report again until I find out whats crucial., then work back the way if possible. The saturated fat content of coconut is eye watering, even for a Glaswegian
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: PaulP on February 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
Hi CH,

There is 100% evidence that hydrogenated veg oil and trans fats are really bad for you.
Governments in the western world are trying to eliminate them from fast food and ready meals by legislation if necessary. I think McDonalds and KFC have managed to eliminate them.

You're right about everything in moderation but cooking and eating an oily curry 3 times a week using this stuff is far from being moderate. Basically any vegetable oil that is solid/waxy at room temperature has been hydrogenated unless it is a tropical plant oil like coconut or palm oil.

I don't want so say anymore as the information is all out there and it sounds negative in light of what you guys have just experienced and I think there will be a leap forward for cr0 in what information you have and will be posting.

For example I've never got that chilli cooking experience whereby you feel like coughing so I now know I have to get to grips with cooking (singeing) my spices better.

I don't think the use of veg ghee will be the deal breaker on what you have learnt.

I would say CH, don't throw away your recent purchase but experiment with that and also with butter ghee and normal veg oil and see how much difference it makes to the final taste.

Cheers,

Paul




Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: George on February 14, 2012, 11:02 PM
I'm going to try making my own butter ghee, i.e. clarified butter. I assume that's a lot healthier. I can also make relatively small quantities. On the occasion I've bought tubs of butter ghee from shops, it's quite expensive and the smell goes off before I've used very much, so it's always ended up in the bin.

As for vegetable ghee, it can't be much different to solid margarines which claim to taste quite like butter, whilst not containing any health-threatening elements. Perhaps they're a better alternative. It's difficult to know what a lump of vegetable ghee brings to the party when added to most dishes at Az's restaurant.

Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: curryhell on February 14, 2012, 11:19 PM
I'm going to try making my own butter ghee, i.e. clarified butter. I assume that's a lot healthier. I can also make relatively small quantities. On the occasion I've bought tubs of butter ghee from shops, it's quite expensive and the smell goes off before I've used very much, so it's always ended up in the bin.

As for vegetable ghee, it can't be much different to solid margarines which claim to taste quite like butter, whilst not containing any health-threatening elements. Perhaps they're a better alternative. It's difficult to know what a lump of vegetable ghee brings to the party when added to most dishes at Az's restaurant.
It could be that it's simply more commercially profitable.I'll do a side by side comparison and see if there's a taste difference in favour of it and whether there is any discernable difference
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: paulirving on February 16, 2012, 06:11 PM
prefer lard myself ;)
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: Les on February 16, 2012, 06:27 PM
prefer lard myself ;)

Does brilliant chip's, Don't know about curry though ;D
But beef dripping is the best, especially for chips or roast tatties ;)

Les
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: noble ox on February 16, 2012, 07:14 PM
Ghee is clarified butter and is very nice used sparingly, its easy and cheap to make,from my experiences Asians prefer anchor butter why ? I don't know
Veg ghee...................commerce ( getting on the band wagon) when there were cholesterol issues
Mustard oil  :o is the big danger (google the safety factors) It is banned in the USA hereand Europe it can only be sold with a label stating "for external use" Noticed it being mentioned here a few times for cooking
For me its butter ghee or veg oil
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: PaulP on February 16, 2012, 07:25 PM
About 2 years ago I went to a chippy in Hebden Bridge, Yorkshire. In this place you could buy chips cooked in lard or beef dripping (not sure which now) or vegetable oil. We had the animal fat fried chips and they were absolutely delicious.

Cheers,

Paul
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: Graeme on February 16, 2012, 07:30 PM
I was told a few years ago that butter is better for you, it went against the grain at the time.
It seems to me that the more natural a product is the better it is for our health.

Man made products i,e using electricity to make oil seems to me to be so wrong.
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: ELW on February 16, 2012, 08:23 PM
I can't work out the pattern of the use of ghee. Ashoka use it for some dishes at the frying stage & not others according to the report. Kushi if I remember correctly,mix it with veg oil to start off their tikka masala. One thing i'm certain of is thats it features heavily in the Glasgow bir's. The empty buckets are then used for all manner of things. The thing is, I see both, the big metal containers of oil & the big ghee buckets in the same places.

ELW
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: George on February 16, 2012, 09:35 PM
I can't work out the pattern of the use of ghee. Ashoka use it for some dishes at the frying stage & not others according to the report. Kushi if I remember correctly,mix it with veg oil to start off their tikka masala. One thing i'm certain of is thats it features heavily in the Glasgow bir's. The empty buckets are then used for all manner of things. The thing is, I see both, the big metal containers of oil & the big ghee buckets in the same places.

Do all your references refer to vegetable ghee?

Ghee (as labelled) is not only clarified butter as mis-stated by noble ox.
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: ELW on February 17, 2012, 08:34 AM
I can't work out the pattern of the use of ghee. Ashoka use it for some dishes at the frying stage & not others according to the report. Kushi if I remember correctly,mix it with veg oil to start off their tikka masala. One thing i'm certain of is thats it features heavily in the Glasgow bir's. The empty buckets are then used for all manner of things. The thing is, I see both, the big metal containers of oil & the big ghee buckets in the same places.

Do all your references refer to vegetable ghee?

Ghee (as labelled) is not only clarified butter as mis-stated by noble ox.
Yes George I was referring to vegetable ghee. These are 10kg or maybe even larger plastic tubs, the size of which may give an idea of their application in bir. I've only seen butter ghee in smallish metal tins & every bir kitchen video seems to feature one on the stove top. I would guess that the butter ghee metal containers on the stove, actually contain veg oil or veg ghee, used there purely to keep it warm & ready for use. The butter ghee may be used in smaller quantities, ie brushing naan bread & probably goes for miles. I think trans fats are mainly used for improving the shelf life of perishables, with no nutritional value. As for the health risks, I could Google it all day,I don't think I would take much away from it other than trans fats are linked to certain cancers & heart disease. Glasgow doesn't do moderation  ::)

ELW
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: natterjak on February 19, 2012, 06:33 AM
I can't see that there will be a lot of variation in flavour of the final dish whatever oil or ghee was used.
Can't agree with you there, Natterjak.  Butter ghee definitely imparts a distinctive flavour to the finished dish, just as do (say) olive oil or mustard oil.  I would agree if you said "you probably can't tell the difference in the final dish between (say) rapeseed oil and rice-bran oil", but they are already fairly close on the taste spectrum -- once you get to the outliers such as butter ghee or olive oil, I believe that they will definitely make their presence known.

** Phil.

Hi Phil, I'm sorry to be slow replying to you. I think perhaps we are slightly at cross purposes - I do agree that a different oil or ghee will lead to a slightly different taste but it's the scale of the difference which is what led me to make my initial statement. In other words although substituting veg oil or sunflower oil for veg ghee will make a change in the flavour I expect it to be a small change and that the flavour of the final dish doesn't rely on using veg ghee for it to be 'correct'. Butter ghee or one of the strongly flavoured oils you mentioned might well be a different matter.

Opinions on this might vary, but that is mine  ;)  I choose not to use veg ghee and will accept that it might mean my home cooked curries differ slightly from one cooked with veg ghee, but i anticipate it will be a subtle difference and not a "show stopper".
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: George on February 19, 2012, 10:34 AM
I choose not to use veg ghee and will accept that it might mean my home cooked curries differ slightly from one cooked with veg ghee, but i anticipate it will be a subtle difference and not a "show stopper".

Why don't you use vegetable ghee? I suggest the only way to check out Az's recipes, to see if they can be recreated at home with as good a flavour as at the restaurant (if indeed you were bowled over with the flavour, when you sat down to eat last Sunday), is to use ALL the same ingredients that Az used. Vegetable ghee may be rather unhealthy but does it stop any of us eating out at BIRs or ordering take-aways? If you can recreate Az type results three or four times, using vegetable ghee, then it would be logical to alter the oil/fat type, only then, to see what a difference it makes.
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: emin-j on February 19, 2012, 10:56 AM
I choose not to use veg ghee and will accept that it might mean my home cooked curries differ slightly from one cooked with veg ghee, but i anticipate it will be a subtle difference and not a "show stopper".

Why don't you use vegetable ghee? I suggest the only way to check out Az's recipes, to see if they can be recreated at home with as good a flavour as at the restaurant (if indeed you were bowled over with the flavour, when you sat down to eat last Sunday), is to use ALL the same ingredients that Az used. Vegetable ghee may be rather unhealthy but does it stop any of us eating out at BIRs or ordering take-aways? If you can recreate Az type results three or four times, using vegetable ghee, then it would be logical to alter the oil/fat type, only then, to see what a difference it makes.

For once I agree with George  ;)
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: Whandsy on February 19, 2012, 11:09 AM
I choose not to use veg ghee and will accept that it might mean my home cooked curries differ slightly from one cooked with veg ghee, but i anticipate it will be a subtle difference and not a "show stopper".

Why don't you use vegetable ghee? I suggest the only way to check out Az's recipes, to see if they can be recreated at home with as good a flavour as at the restaurant (if indeed you were bowled over with the flavour, when you sat down to eat last Sunday), is to use ALL the same ingredients that Az used. Vegetable ghee may be rather unhealthy but does it stop any of us eating out at BIRs or ordering take-aways? If you can recreate Az type results three or four times, using vegetable ghee, then it would be logical to alter the oil/fat type, only then, to see what a difference it makes.

For once I agree with George  ;)

Good point George, me too :)
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: George on February 19, 2012, 11:51 AM
For once I agree with George  ;)

Thanks. Just so I understand where there might be some misunderstanding, what is it, that you disagree with me on?
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: chef888 on April 01, 2012, 10:17 AM
everything i have read about veg ghee seems to warn of health risks i use a super markets own brand  veg oil with a nob of pure butter ghee dont think i,ll risk veg ghee
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: emin-j on April 01, 2012, 08:43 PM
It seems that the BIR's I use,where I have asked,use plenty of veg ghee,one even deep fries his bhaji's in it  :o
but these happen to be the tastiest bhaji's Ive had  :-\ My favourite T/A use it in their base gravy and final curries and I reckon most of the BIR's in the UK use copious amounts of the stuff,and I bought a 1/2 gallon tub of it from Asda yesterday (taj mahal brand).Used it for the first time last night and it made no difference to the taste of our curry's  :-\ glad really cuz I'll probably bin the rest.Why do BIR's use it I wonder ?
Title: Re: Vegetable ghee warning
Post by: beachbum on April 02, 2012, 04:20 AM
I expect they use it because it's cheap.

The danger with trans fats is that they are not found in nature but when the body digests them, they get put into cell walls etc in the place that a "natural" fat would go. The body mistakes them for fats that they already know about, sort of analagous to kids who used to drink yellow dishwashing liquid that was in virtually identical containers to lemon squash, then rushed to hospital (I think that packaging has been banned or at least discouraged).

It's thought that trans fats, as well as artery and heart problems, are a major contributor to macular degeneration of the retina, major cause of blindness in the first world, due to the wrong fats becoming incorporated into the retina.