Topic: Why Can't I Get That BIR Taste & Aroma?

[ELW]

For anyone interested, an observation I made when when boiling onions /carrot/'bit of gg'/ & frying the tomato/mix powder/gg in oil separately(baghar...whatever), was that it is like starting a basic tarka or starting a curry. The aroma from the baghar ingredients on their own, has been & is described as toffee like. I've smelled this at home,but I do'nt recognise it as bir

What I have smelled is the aroma produced when the baghar ingredients are diluted with onion gravy, in the restaurant & at home. It's completely different & not toffee like. It smells more like a spicy tomato soup if i'm near the kitchen. It is  It's not the smell of the actual served food at all. A useful tip, which has helped me'

1. Have a sniff of the mix powder in it's dry form- This should be gone completely in the finished dish. There should be no trace of this smell whatsoever in a finished dish
2. Have a sniff of the baghar ingredients on their own(oil/gg/MP/tomato) fried in a pan seperately(very toffee like smell, a bit like Ashoka Banjarra paste,which on its own,tastes nothing remotely like anything i've had in a bir). There should be no trace of this smell whatsoever in a finished dish either

3. After adding a ladle of gravy to the hot pan, while cooking a dish, an odd like, imo a spicy tomato aroma will appear. I'll recognise it immediately along with anyone who comes into the house


* The above must not overpower the onion gravy/base gravy/garabi. I've found it's the other way round. The harsh spices are diluted by the higher quantity base gavy.   I've managed it so far by frying everything on a high domestic heat,big hiss when the tomato paste & gravy hits the pan(as yet I can't explain why high fast cooking is different than longer lower temp cooking  ).
There will be completely new flavours created from these mixtures & adding them to others,when done correctly,will give you the bir flavour & aroma.


IMHO, a huge amount of published material on this subject has failed to address this little issue

I hope this makes some kind of sense & helps someone

Regards
ELW

[JerryM]

ELW,

it may or not be of help but the "toffee" smell was never an actual toffee smell - it was the best way of describing what was happening during the dry oil fry and the time to quench. i now always add free liquid to fry the spice and never get a "toffee" smell (even at the high heat that i use). in short i rely on sight and a bit of movement with the spoon.

[chewytikka]

Just picking back up on this

Hi Jimmy Nomates,  ;D;D LOL typical response from you too, CA. I try not to bite, but your such a tool.

Exiled in Oz for years and as far away as possible from tasting an actual BIR curry, probably
fuels your feeling of frustration / inadequacy and constant lack of understanding of the subject.
you probably have Inadequate personality disorder? Therapy maybe

My recall is fine SS

Thanks for the link Haldi, as you state 2 x 400g cans of tomatoes, but also + 400g of tomato puree as part of your Bhagar.
To a home cook that's 2 full tubes of tomato puree.
A pot of base is easily flavoured, hence you finished up with a tomato tasting base, which you comment about in your post.
Even your photo shows your crimson Tomato base to full effect, which is not what you would really expect to see in any BIR kitchen.
Just my observation

cheers Chewy

[haldi]

Just picking back up on this

Thanks for the link Haldi, as you state 2 x 400g cans of tomatoes, but also + 400g of tomato puree as part of your Bhagar.
To a home cook that's 2 full tubes of tomato puree.
A pot of base is easily flavoured, hence you finished up with a tomato tasting base, which you comment about in your post.
Even your photo shows your crimson Tomato base to full effect, which is not what you would really expect to see in any BIR kitchen.
Just my observation

cheers Chewy

I realise you have been in many kitchens, but this amount of tomato is correct at three of the places I have been
Mind you they dont use tubes of tomato puree, it comes from a large can of White Tower
I didn't fancy buying a huge tin for the experiment, so I used tubes
Their curry gravy cooking oil is red
Having said all that, I have seen curry gravy made with no tomato puree at all
I guess we just have to accept that different places have different recipes
That's probably why we never all agree to have cracked the perfect curry
We are chasing different flavours
I note that one of your recipe calls for Worcestershire sauce
I've tried the recipe and it's very good, but ceratainly not like any of my local BIR's
I promise you, that NONE of them use Worcestershire sauce in any curry
That sort of consolidates what I am saying
There is no "right" way to do it
Please don't take offence, I love reading your recipes and watching your videos

One of the main reasons I waited to make a full sized base, was because I wanted a recipe I had seen for myself several times
And that was what I did

[harley]

Having seen videos, read info and talked to the chef, 2 tins of tomato seems excessive, since its an onion soup and seems to involve non at all to a spoon full of paste for an extremely large pot. Haldi mentions 8kg of onions but a large pot will take 20-40kg.

No offence but 8kg of onions, then peeled is what I can get in my 11.5 litre pot so I wouldn't call this a definitive large scale test by any means, no offence. Even more so when you use 2 tins of tomato for 7-8kg of onion. This is home scale and lasts me a short time. A TA wouldn't last 5 mins.

I'm struggling to see how 8kg of onion has been touted as the large scale test and used as an example or the sense to suggest its large scale. It reads like a fuddled small scale base.

We have those crappy dial a curry type places here with tomatoey taste and also the good TA and BIR that don't have tomato taste and they insist to me the crapness of your broad TA is not your authentic curry house. They informed me of difference when I first started going 15-20 years ago, I pointed how some are more like tomato and disappointing as these were popping up and not the real deal.

As said, if these are what you have then you'll be chasing that taste but I can't stand tomato taste in curry.

The Worcestershire sauce point is a bit of a cheap shot to chewy, its not like some instant BIR must have or a dish transformer.

[Cory Ander]

Just picking back up on this

Hi Jimmy Nomates,  ;D;D LOL typical response from you too, CA. I try not to bite, but your such a tool.

Exiled in Oz for years and as far away as possible from tasting an actual BIR curry, probably
fuels your feeling of frustration / inadequacy and constant lack of understanding of the subject.
you probably have Inadequate personality disorder? Therapy maybe

cheers Chewy

And I'm the tool Chewy? 

But you're right.  To my disadvantage (or probable advantage), I have not experienced BIR curries in recent years.  My advantage is that my benchmark is clearly BIR curries of "yesteryear" (which I want to reproduce).  The disadvantage is that I don't have a benchmark for BIR curries of "nowadays" (which, by the sounds of it, is no great deal!).

And you're also right.  I don't pretend to have all the answers to replicating BIR curries (of yesteryear)....unlike some of us seem to pretend  :

If you have nothing constructive to contribute to the topic of the thread, then maybe say nothing at all? 

[Cory Ander]

The Worcestershire sauce point is a bit of a cheap shot to chewy, its not like some instant BIR must have or a dish transformer.

In my experience (of Haldi being on this forum for over 8 years!), Haldi is extremely reluctant to have a "cheap shot" at anyone, or anything.  He would feel ridden with guilt if he did so! 

If it appears so, it's because Haldi believes it to be the case (in my opinion).

I have also never experienced Worcester sauce being added to a curry (maybe it's a Northern thing?)

[harley]

Yes, probably a northern thing. Don't know is aniseed is a north west thing but I see it lot here, just adds a bit more to the taste, like a dash of lemon. You can take it or leave really.

Would be interesting if someone could lend a large pot for 30-40kg of onions who has a commercial burner in the garage. I've done 2-8kg and not noticed any difference. Some here have replicated their local base, quite sure jb has but don't know the scale his TA/BIR does though.

[haldi]

The Worcestershire sauce point is a bit of a cheap shot to chewy, its not like some instant BIR must have or a dish transformer.

I'm glad that you are standing up for Chewy
That's good to see
I think he's great, too
I love his posts and he comes across as a genuinely good and helpful person
But it's not a "cheap shot"
I promise you
I'm just reporting what I've seen, or rather not seen
I am sure that Worcestershire sauce is used at some places
What I am saying, is that it's not used at the places, I have been in
There are differences which should be acknowledged
I for one, happily accept this fact
As for my base not being a big enough scale
Well, that's the size of pot this place used on the occasions I saw it cooked
I know places make bigger bases at different times
It depends on expected demand
(I bet Chewy will have seen that)
But I also knew they achieved a brilliant result working in these quantities
I was just trying to copy what I'd seen, and share it with everyone
I thought it might be of interest, and certainly didn't want to upset anyone
Another difference I've seen, is the old bhajee oil in the base
This does not go on everywhere, I realise
But this is one more case of a different recipe
You can't just dismiss it and say it isn't right
What about ghee in the base?
I've seen that in a London demo but never round here
And that stuff makes a huge difference to flavour
There is no set way to do this
Just imagine if all these BIR chefs got together in one room!!
What an argument that would be

[ELW]

What about ghee in the base?
I've seen that in a London demo but never round here
And that stuff makes a huge difference to flavour

Hi Haldi, I'm keen to hear your's & anyone else's thoughts on that. It's an ingredient in Glasgow, thats for sure

Regards
ELW