Topic: Does the missing 'secret' ingredient exist?

[chriswg]

I have just been reading through a lot of the old base sauce and vindaloo recipe archives and there is a recurring theme that has been touched on a number of times but never really explored in any great detail. With all the member here trying and experimenting with different permutations of ingredients and cooking methods you would think by now someone would have hit on the perfect recipe, but it hasn't happened. Everyone here is constantly changing their ideas trying to get the authentic BIR taste and smell.

What I have noticed from personal experience and from a number of other reports is that the Indian chefs themselves can't recreate the BIR taste at home. If they cant do it, what hope have we got? Obviously the taste is achievable in their restaurant kitchens so maybe what we should be looking for isn't a magic ingredient (that we all deep down know doesn't exist otherwise someone would have uncovered it by now), but rather something that they have there that we don't have at home.

Some have suggested burners with enough power to get super high heat, but surely the spices, garlic, ginger etc would burn too quickly? Maybe its down to the fact the base sauce keeps simmering for about 10 hours a day and is presumably kept for a couple of days at a time? I have certainly sometimes had runny bland curry's from my favourite BIR one day and then a thick really tasty one from the same place a few days later. I put it down to getting a dodgy sous-chef that day, but maybe it was down to the batch of base sauce being fresh that day. Certainly when I have had a bad Vindaloo, my wifes CTM has also been poor but when mine is excellent, hers has too.

Maybe there is another element we are failing to see? Maybe the taste is only achievable when cooking the base vast quantities. A carvery roast beef is always much nicer than a small joint cooked at home.

I honestly believe is we can crack the cooking method then the ingredients are much less important (as with the onion bhajis IMO).

Jerry and CA, as usual it would be great to hear your conflicting thoughts on this subject. It would also be great to hear if anyone has simmered their completed base sauce for 6 - 8 hours after blending to see if that makes any difference.

I'm going for a Rajver base and Vindaloo this evening so I am contemplating making the base at lunch and simmering it all day. I also have a very powerful wok burner on my range cooker so I'll have no problem achieving the high heats that the BIR's get.

[JerryM]

chriswg,

u don't do things by halves.

i must admit i never feel myself and CA have conflicting views. CA has far better english and is well ahead of me so i always listen to what he say's. the number of what i'd call crucial posts are all by CA and that for me say's enough.

"Indian chef's can't recreate at home" - there are quite a few ideas on this conspiracy:

1) to do with the batches of base and how they work their pots (dregs start the next etc)
2) adding chip pan/bhajis oil
3) burner (and i'd add mess in u're kitchen)
4) scaling down from big pots

the longest i think i've simmered base is about 6 hrs. i've also tasted real BIR base. i know it's not down to the longer the better. i stop at around 3 hrs and certainly no longer than 4hrs.

i do swear by my high heat stove but realise having tried the slowboat approach it's not crucial for everyone. i'd also add that u can't cook in your kitchen at that heat (big extract needed for the smoke). the slowboat gets u very close but it does not produce the smokiness (depend if u need it though - even my wife can tell the difference though). not being a pooper but i don't think u're wok burner will do it unless it's around 7kw. i don't know for sure where the cut off is. i know 3 kw is no good. i know the stove is around 8wk and more than enough.

the other big area for me is consistency. my last BIR TA madras was not as good as norm yet cooked by the No1 chef. i find everything needs to come together exactly right and just a very slight variation can have a big effect. i'm starting to think (other than ease) this is why BIR chef's use sight to measure by. i've given using spoons my best shot but still find inconsistency. measuring by sight is not that practical at home though i feel.

recipe refinement is the only other thing on my radar. some of the site's recipe are very close to BIR (blind folded u'd be hard pressed to tell). most are good but would benefit hugely from that extra mile.

the rajver i do like (in my top 3). i'd thought about making the vindaloo but never done so as i would be cooking only for myself as opposed to the family who just about sit well with madras hot. will look fwd to your results.

[Cory Ander]

It's a good question Chris, and one that's been asked many times before.

My view is that, until we can get an answer to the question from some pukka BIR chefs (i.e. "why can't you reproduce these curries at home?"), then we will always be speculating, going around in circles, and retreading old ground.

So my challenge to everyone is to ask their local BIR owners/chefs the following questions (in the most diplomatic and surreptitious way, of course!):

-  can you reproduce these curries at home?
-  if not, why not?
-  what is it that you need from the BIR to do so?

They may also not know the answers of course!  Mainly because they may not have ever considered them.

[parker21]

hi chris
when you make a base make it the day before you intend to cook with it, i know the restaurants very rarely use the new made base unless they have too, hence the reason a bland curry. the reason i say this and correct me if you think i'm wrong, the spices need to cool to relax and the sugars from the veg also enhance their flavours when cooled. tonight try this when you have made the base taste it, use it tonight to cook your vindaloo. then cool and refrigerate and tomorrow taste the base cold, you will notice the flavours and smell of the sauce has sweetened and you could eat it as it is, and the sauce will have thickened as well. it is just like people say their curries taste better the next day the same reason!
regards
gary
ps i love vindaloo ;D

[mickdabass]

The very fact that I (we all) struggle to produce a consistant curry - whether good or bad is evidence enough to me that it is ALL about technique as opposed to "the secret ingredient." Perhaps some members have perfected their technique but don't bother to disclose this - judging by the fact that there are over 9000 members to the site, there are only a very small proportion of people who actually contribute to this site.

[adriandavidb]

The very fact that I (we all) struggle to produce a consistant curry - whether good or bad is evidence enough to me that it is ALL about technique as opposed to "the secret ingredient." Perhaps some members have perfected their technique but don't bother to disclose this - judging by the fact that there are over 9000 members to the site, there are only a very small proportion of people who actually contribute to this site.

I seem to remember Bruce Edwards stating base got better the longer it was kept before use, up to three days as I recall?  My best efforts have often been with 3 day old base ,albeit kept in the fridge.

[emin-j]

I agree with mickdabass that it is down to technique.
The wife and I  had a Madras from our 2nd favourite T/A last night and it was awful  It was so bland it was no more than base plus a bit of Chili powder.
When I arrived to collect my Curry ( pre ordered )I had to wait twenty minutes as they were so busy ,it is also a restaurant and it was manic  I don't believe they used any less ingredients but rushed the cooking of my Curry which gave a poor result.

I have regularly made better tasting Curries than even my favourite T/A ( confirmed by my Curryholic family who use various T/A including my favourite and that was with the sns base and Madras recipe when I first joined the forum ,although my favourite T/A make a very nice Madras with less ingredients in their Base and Curry.

At the moment I am trying to replicate the taste of my favourite T/A using the ingredients and method they use ( I watched my Curry being made in their kitchen )at the moment I'm struggling 
But to answer your question IMO I don't think there is any ' magic 'Spice we are not using just that we need to perfect our technique. 

[George]

It's a good question Chris, and one that's been asked many times before.

My view is that, until we can get an answer to the question from some pukka BIR chefs (i.e. "why can't you reproduce these curries at home?"), then we will always be speculating, going around in circles, and retreading old ground.

So my challenge to everyone is to ask their local BIR owners/chefs the following questions (in the most diplomatic and surreptitious way, of course!):

-  can you reproduce these curries at home?
-  if not, why not?
-  what is it that you need from the BIR to do so?

They may also not know the answers of course!  Mainly because they may not have ever considered them.

Words of wisdom from CA, as usual! I agree that this thread looks like being the latest re-run of previous thoughts already thrashed to death. I'm sorry to say I disagree with Chris that these issues "have never really explored in any great detail." God save us from going round in circles for the n-th time! I agree with you, CA, that the best way forward is an entirely fresh approach.

[JerryM]

we need to perfect our technique. 

emin-j,

would encourage u to post here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0
i feel i've eventually got sorted but struggled too. yet i still feel further discussion would be helpful to us all.

ps will chk if my posts are upto date

[chriswg]

Thanks everyone for your posts. This argument has obviously been raging for several years but it is a shame there is still no definitive answer to the perfect method.

It would be great if a few people could quiz their local chefs with the questions CA suggests. I'm sure the answers are within our collective grasp. I'll see what answers I can get from my local TA next time I pop in.

My vindaloo yesterday was extremely good. I opted for a CK recipe and it was simple yet really nice. I made a few changes to the base recipe. Mainly I heated 300 ml of oil in the pan and added the spices to it when it was hot. I figured this would release more flavour from the spices as well as flavouring the oil for later reclaim. I also used a combination of fresh peeled tomatoes and a tin of chopped tomatoes. For my personal preference I think it needed at least 15 fresh tomatoes, not the 6 I had.

The other thing made the base better than my previous attempts was using a hand blender in the pot and not over blending. In the past I have always read it should go in a blender for at least 5 mins to get a totally smooth sauce. I thought having a bit of texture to the sauce really made it taste more authentic. I also simmered it for a good 4 - 5 hours in total then skimmed off the oil.

As previously suggested I have tried it today, and yes, it definitely tastes even better. It was a bit bland yesterday but the flavours are really starting to come through now. I think that should be an essential point to all recipes, at least a 24 hour rest period after making it before use.

The final curry wasn't hot enough for me despite adding 6 - 7 tsps of hot chilli powder. It would have been mild for a Madras, so I definitely have some learning to do with the final part but for me, I don't think I'll have any need for a better base.