Topic: A couple of changes to Kris Dhillon's madras

[PaulP]

Spicey,

The KD garam masala is really a hybrid between a spice mix (too much cumin/corriander for a trad gm) and a gm mix.
I'm sure you would agree on that.

I've got quite a few traditional Indian recipe books and you can't take any rules for granted in Indian cooking.
I've read loads of examples of traditional recipes (eg 50 great curries of India) where the gm is fried at the start of the dish. For this reason I think gm just refers to the type of aromatic spices used to prepare it, not to when it is added during cooking.

In the KD1 book (eg chicken curry) this gm or spice mix is not fried unlike a spice mix in BIR cooking. It is not one thing or another really.

More to the point, did you enjoy the food, was your madras like a BIR madras, do you like a BIR madras, could you copy a BIR madras if you felt inclined?

Anyway, I'm cooking the split moong dhal tonight from p138 of an Indian housewife's cookbook. A recipe that is very similar to one I posted here under "another tarka dal recipe". This has gm but it is fully cooked and fried with the whole spices and tomatoes. It is not added "at the end" of cooking.

Cheers,

Paul

[Peripatetic Phil]

In the KD1 book (eg chicken curry) this gm or spice mix is not fried unlike a spice mix in BIR cooking.

This one fact (together with the onion/ginger/garlic base) was, for me, more than enough justification for the existence of the book.  I had spent (literally) decades frying my spices and totally failing to get anywhere near the BIR consistency, aroma and flavour.  Then I bought KD1 and found that you don't have to fry the spices at all -- all that is necessary is that they cook in a liquid containing sufficient oil to enable their own essential oils to leach out.  I know that the received wisdom on this forum is that "every BIR starts by making a tarka, gently frying the spices, ..." and so on, but as far as I am concerned Kris Dhillon gets so close with her "braise the spices" approach that I am certain that not all BIRs go to the trouble of making a tarka and bhooning the spices.

** Phil.

[spiceyokooko]

The KD garam masala is really a hybrid between a spice mix (too much cumin/corriander for a trad gm) and a gm mix.

Paul

I'd certainly agree that it's a 'hybrid' between a traditional Garam Masala and a more conventional 'Spice Mix', I just wanted to clear up the point I was trying to make with regards to HOW it was used, rather than necessarily what it was CALLED.

The other point I wanted to make is that these things are not necessarily interchangeable between dishes and recipes from one cook to another - that's one of the reasons there is so many different Garam Masala mixes out there. Many of them are tailored specifically for the recipes/dishes that cook is instructing you to make. That doesn't mean you can just pull one off the shelf and use that instead.

I think a discussion on Garam Masala and what it contains and how it's used could go on ad infinitum, because as you rightly pointed out there are no hard and fast rules, merely guidelines.

For example, if I wanted to make up my own 'secret-ingredient' 'all purpose-catch all' spice mix that just happened to contain some Cardamons, Cloves, Black Peppercorns and Cinnamon, plus a variety of others spices - would I HAVE to call it a Garam Masala and HAVE to add it at the end of cooking, because conventional wisdom dictates that's what I have to do because it contains those four ingredients? I'm sure you'd agree the answer would be no.

With regards to the results I achieved - they were interesting.

I first cooked it out following Kris's instructions to the letter and for me it was over-poweringly salty. The second time through I cooked it out precisely as described but added the Garam Masala component only at the end of cooking and reduced the salt to half and it tasted just as Ray mentioned - 'too pharmaceutical' and the Garam Masala overpowered the dish.

The third time I cooked it using all the same ingredients (half the salt, but double the chilli powder) but changed the sequence in which they were cooked, I fried a little of the sauce in oil then bhoona'd all the spices in that, then added the chicken for a few minutes then finally the sauce, and that took me closer to what I expected at the beginning.The fourth time I added some chopped onion, bhoona'd all the spices in that (as third time) added some tomato puree, then the chicken then the sauce and cooked it till the oil separated and that was probably the best of the lot. It was tasty enough and a close approximation to what you might expect to get in a BIR, but still a fair bit off.

It was a good starting point, but I want to try out some more of the recipes given on the site to see how much closer I can get. I'm particularly interested in trying out some of the base sauces, as for me that's where Khris's recipe wasn't quite right.

Cheers and good Karma!

[Razor]

Ok spiceyokooko,

Given that I'm "unreliable" "have plenty of opinions" and even though I have told you that I HAVE tried the recipe to spec, you doubt that I have and so therefor a "liar", have you even tried my suggestion given to missy?  If you have, and you still prefer KD's spec recipe then great, you can safely say that my initial advice was shite (for you).

I still stand by the advice that I offered to Missy, as that is based on MY opinion, which I'M entitled to.  I can also understand if other members think that the advice I gave was no good for them, we are individuals after all

As you say, you are new here, which has no indication of how much experience you may have BTW, but when you pick me up on another post directed at another member, and I give my explanations as honestly as I could, I wouldn't expect you to insult me by insinuating that I'm "over opinionated".  That's not a good start, is it?

That's unfair mate, I try to offer as much help as I can to any who asks for it.  My advice can only be based on my opinions and experiences, nothing more.  I'm no master chef, guru whatever you will but I do feel I can offer advice to those who are new to BIR cooking in the confidence that I can help them get closer to what they desire.

Whether they choose to take that advice, is up to them but at least I've tried.

Ray

[Peripatetic Phil]

If I might be permitted to weigh in here :  I have known Ray (on this forum, never in person) for quite some time, and there is no doubt in my mind that he offers good advice to any and all who are seeking it.  This whole debate really seems to hinge on whether Ray has ever cooked Kris Dhillion's Chicken Madras using her Garam Masala and adding it at the point during the cooking that she specifies.  Ray says, in his immediately preceding message, that "[he has] tried the recipe to spec", and, knowing Ray as I do, I believe him. He has also previously written "I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes.", so I don't think that there can be any doubt that when Ray comments on Kris's Chicken Madras, he does so from a position of experience and knowledge.  My own attempts, I am forced to confess, were far less rigorous, in that I never made her Garam Masala and simply made do with a shop-bought pre-packed one.

** Phil.

[PaulP]

If Ray says he cooked it to spec then I believe him as well.

I'm not convinced that by cooking the gm spices early in the process that the spices I don't use would have their flavours eliminated. Nutmeg for example - I can't stand the stuff after consuming 4 whole nutmegs 30 odd years ago to test the narcotic effects of the substance. Don't try that at home folks!

Spicey, we appear to have got off to a bad start. If you have any KD base sauce left why not try to substitute a BIR mix powder from here such as: Bruce Edwards, Taz, Ray's own, Mouchak, Dipuraja, Cory Ander, Authentic Balti Cookbook, Abdul Mohed's 8 spice mix etc. Then why not try one of the popular base sauce recipes from this site and see what you think.

Cheers,

Paul

[curryhell]

That's unfair mate, I try to offer as much help as I can to any who asks for it.  My advice can only be based on my opinions and experiences, nothing more.  I'm no master chef, guru whatever you will but I do feel I can offer advice to those who are new to BIR cooking in the confidence that I can help them get closer to what they desire.

Whether they choose to take that advice, is up to them but at least I've tried.

Ray

Here here!!  No different to the rest of us Ray.  Don't stop giving advice.  There are plenty of people who want it and value it.  If this topic hasn't been done to death, then i really don't know what has

[Les]

ere here!!  No different to the rest of us Ray.  Don't stop giving advice.  There are plenty of people who want it and value it.

I'm one of those people, and It's much appreciated, how would I learn otherwise If it wasn't for Ray and the rest of you guy's, And I shouldn't think I am the only one by a long way, So keep the advise coming

HS

[Razor]

Here here!!  No different to the rest of us Ray.  Don't stop giving advice.  There are plenty of people who want it and value it.  If this topic hasn't been done to death, then i really don't know what has

I agree CH, and for the sake of the forum, I don't really want to go any further with it, so, I offer my hand to spiceyokooko and lets agree to disagree, and start again!

I can't say fairer than that!

Ray

[spiceyokooko]

Ray

I'm more than happy to apologise if you feel I've slighted you, that certainly wasn't my intention at all.

If you feel with a clear conscience that you've cooked Khris's recipe precisely as per her instructions for every stage, including the base sauce, the pre-cooking of the meat in the sauce and ingredients she specifies and the actual dish itself using the exact ingredients she specifies I'm more than happy to accept that.

All I can then say is - my experiences and results of her recipe and dish appear to be quite different to yours and this can quite often be the case when you get two different people cooking the same recipe with different abilities, cooking skills, experience, taste buds and expectations of the final result.

I've often found the need to cook out recipes/dishes half a dozen times or more before I've fully understood them and what impact the ingredients and cooking techniques may be having on the flavour of the dish and know from the consistency or otherwise of the results that I've cooked the dish correctly or incorrectly.

If you can cook out a dish and know instinctively there's something not right with it and can improve it by substituting other ingredients - you're a far better cook than I am and I take my hat off to you because I've been cooking many varieties of cuisines including Indian for over 30+ years.

That's not to say that I know everything there is to know about Indian cooking, far from it, and that's one of the reasons why I'm here - to learn new and different techniques. Indian cookery within itself can be quite tricky to learn and understand due to the sheer volume of differing herbs, spices and ingredients as well as a wide array of cooking techniques each one of which can impart a slightly different flavour on the final dish depending on how its cooked and used.

My ultimate goal of being here is to gain a greater understanding on the BIR way of cooking as opposed to the more traditional way of Indian cooking which I'm much more familiar with - because that's what I've primarily concentrated on. That means I'll be asking a lot of questions as to why people do things - it's not to challenge why they do them, it's to understand why they do them. Who knows, maybe a few people will even gain benefit from my more traditional understanding of Indian cookery techniques.

So please don't take offence at my comments - it's my way of learning and understanding!

Cheers and good Karma!