Topic: Running out of ideas

[Whandsy]

I've even started to stuff ear plugs up my nose to ensure that I don't get 'spiced out' whilst cooking, and it does help a great deal.

Wow, ive just got home and knocked up a jalfrezi with some leftover base in the fridge, the difference being i shoved kitchen roll up both nostrils for cooking from start to finish . OMG It was superb, i know im guilty of getting spice overload but i cant believe its made that much of a difference!

Nice one Ray, that's a new addition to the technique

[Razor]

Nice one Wayne ;D

When I do it, I can see my missus looking at me with complete and utter disgust hahahaha ;D

Ray

[spiceyokooko]

I would say that, 90% of the time I do get TA quality dishes but, everything has to be done 'spot on' for me to achieve the desired results. Timing is crucial, and knowing how far to go is too.  Singing spices and burning them, is a very fine line.  I take the, hot, quench, hot, quench approach for example; in goes the gg paste in hot oil, then quench with tom puree. Get the oil back to temp then in goes the spices.  Again, I then quench with a chefspoon of base and bring back to temp.  In goes the veg (if using) then quench again with more base and so on and so forth.

Ray

I agree with you here 100%, that's the technique I use too and I'm more than happy with the quality of dishes I'm currently producing. Are they as good as my local takeaway? Who knows, I don't really care to be honest, all I know is they're good enough for me and I enjoy eating them and that's what it's about for me. If I was objective, I'd say they were good enough to make my local takeaway redundant - I simply don't use Indian Restaurant takeaways any more, I'd much rather cook my own. What I do know is - they're far better than anything I could buy in the supermarket.

What I am convinced about is, there are no 'secret ingredients', as far as I'm concerned - it's all about technique, understanding what you're doing and cooking ability. The more you understand about what you're doing and the better the cook you are - the better the results you'll achieve with the same ingredients.

As you rightly point out - just one of the cooking processes - the frying of spices in hot oil is absolutely critical to the success of the dish, if you get this stage wrong it can completely ruin and change the overall flavour of the dish. But the reverse is also true, by getting this stage bang on the button and stopping the cooking process at exactly the right time by the addition of other ingredients and then continue cooking the next stage again for the correct period of time will ensure the dish is cooked correctly. Even the oil temperature at the point of adding the spices is critical - too hot and they'll burn before you have a chance to do anything, too cool and the spices won't cook properly and release their full flavour and aromatic oils.

The BIR/takeaway chefs bang these dishes out in no more than about 10-15 mins each, that means the use of a medium/high flame which makes, as you also rightly point out, the timing of adding the ingredients also critical. Get the timing wrong and things can go to hell in a hand basket faster than you can shout an expletive! That also means you have to have your 'mise en place' as used in the trade spot on and in the right place. That essentially means you have to have all your ingredients/spice mixes/meat or anything else going into that dish all ready to go in. I also bring my base sauce to a boil then a simmer before I start cooking the dish, so when I add it, it doesn't lower the temperature of the other ingredients when its added.

I would strongly urge all those people who don't feel they're getting the results they're hoping for, to have a critical look at their cooking techniques at all stages and be 100% sure the ingredients are being cooked correctly, before they look at the ingredients themselves as the possible cause of problems.

Just my opinion of course!

Cheers and good Karma!

[Razor]

Hi Spiceyokooko,

What can I say, I'm in total agreement.

Secret ingredient?.....No, I don't believe such a thing really exists.

Cooking technique?.....imperative to achieve perfection.

Am I happy with my own efforts v that of my local TA....Damn right I am (in the most part anyway)

Have I still got lots to learn?.....most very definitely, and I'm really enjoying the journey!

Are me and Spiceyokooko getting on better than the last time we met?.....Hell yes ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Joking aside mate, you raise some really good points there and I also agree, technique is crucial, as is timing, as is good produce.  Get these three elements right and, well, you're almost there!

Ray

[emin-j]

Ray/Chewy, thanks' for the info on using Kashmiri Chili,being milder than my usual Chili Powder enabled me to use twice the amount so changed the Colour to more of the Orange I have been trying to achieve 

Ray, Your tip about using the ground star anise added a lovely aroma and flavour to mine and the Mrs Madras tonight, so thankyou Guys  ;D

Spiceyokooko, Agree with most of what you have written in your post especially the frying of Spices in hot oil.
But I recently followed a recipe { taz I think }where the Spices are added after the first ladle of Base and then reduced down and not being to happy to follow this method did a side by side with my usual fry in oil method and found ............. no difference in flavour in either Curry  that's part of the fun in the BIR challenge   

[Razor]

Hi emin-j,

Many thanks for trying the star anise idea, have you come across that flavour before in a madras?  I suspect that it's quite unusual?

I recently followed a recipe { taz I think }where the Spices are added after the first ladle of Base and then reduced down and not being to happy to follow this method did a side by side with my usual fry in oil method and found ............. no difference in flavour in either Curry   that's part of the fun in the BIR challenge 

Agreed but, because the Taz base contains a fair amount of oil, and you reduce the 1st ladle right back, the spices DO actually get fried.  I think this approach is brilliant for beginners or those who are afraid to fry their spices in fear of burning them, and is a fantastic base and method IMO.

Ray

[emin-j]

Hi Ray, Not tasted the Aniseed flavour in a Curry before but will be adding this to our Madras from now on 

[ELW]

Hi ELW,

We do the following gravies to make the dishes with.

Onion Gravy
Butter Gravy
Korma Gravy
Veg Gravy
Vindaloo Gravy
Seafood Gravy

Each gravy is cooked from scratch and contains different ingredients. When a final dish is being prepared that contains multiple gravies, the different spices used in each gravy create a subtle difference in the finished dish. No  BIR mixed powder is used in the finished dishes as the spices are all contained in the gravies with the exception of finishing spices, black pepper, chili powder or garam masala.

The Veg Gravy for example is used for vegetarian dishes and contains besides a different spice mix, some whole seeds, (cumin, mustard, kalongi, fenugreek, fennel seeds) which are added at the start, along with some other whole spices. This adds a different depth of flavor as there is no meat/chicken stock added to the final dishes.

The Butter/Makhani Gravy has some whole spices added to hot oil, once they darken and expand/pop, the onions are added in and cooked/fried for a good 40 minutes till the volume has reduced by about half. At that point a big handful of methi leaves goes in and it fries for another 40 or so minutes with some salt added at this stage, and cooked until they have reduced right down and are quite dark. In goes the masala mix which is fried for a couple of minutes, then in with the ginger and garlic paste, cooked for another few minutes. Next comes tomato paste(the thick concentrated stuff) and a little water and then a whole lot of blended cashews, some food coloring and sugar. That is then bought back to a boil carefully so as to not have anything burn on the bottom and then it is cooked for on low heat for another hour or so till the oil starts to rise to the surface.

For our 'butter dishes' (Butter Chicken, Paneer Butter Masala etc) there is no actual butter ever added, strange but true! And it is by far the best Butter Chicken I have ever tasted.

The only issue with the 'curry mixing' that we do is that it is a whole lot of work to do just at home having to make 4-6 gravies, I don't like seafood so never worry about making that one at home.

Cheers,
Mark

One thing I forgot to add is that no Pataks or bought pastes are used at all, all masalas used for the gravies are made from scratch along with almost all of the condiments, ie the tamarind sauce, mint sauce for pakoras etc. A couple of packet mixed spices are used ie Bombay Biryani Masala and Chaat Masala, and a couple of pickles are bought as well as they are too time consuming to make.

Hi,

In regards to the missing flavor and the overload of the sense of smell when cooking the dishes, I think unfortunately it is a red herring.

My reason for saying this is that when I started training in the restaurant here making the base gravies, I would start at 2:00pm, cutting onions for the first hour, then making the gravies for the next 3 hours.

Around 6:00pm things start getting busy and depending upon how much is going on, I will either be grabbing ingredients for the chef or cooking the dishes myself, under his watchful eye. As part of my training the chef would get me to taste the dishes while we were cooking. And I can say that even after standing in a very small shop where there is no separation between the kitchen and the front counter, the dishes tasted perfect and smelt perfect, even after cooking very large amounts in a very confined space.

Admittedly when I got home my wife says I stink of curry and fried samosas etc, but I can't smell it, but I could certainly taste how the curries were supposed to taste, and smell how they were meant to.

The bases are full of spices, no such thing as mixed powder, it is similar in process to Ashoka whereby multiple gravies are made which have a large amount of spices and are then mixed to make different dishes, with only a sprinkle of spices at the cooking stage. Ie for Chicken Tikka Masala, butter gravy is used along with a pinch of black pepper and methi, onion and capsicum, and a little cream. A Rogan Josh is a mix of onion gravy, butter gravy, tamarind, pinch of mace powder and a little sugar and salt. Madras is mustard seeds, curry leaves, chili powder, onion gravy, coconut milk powder and a pinch of salt. Butter Chicken is nothing more then butter gravy, pinch of salt, pinch of garam masala, cream and methi.

As much as I have learnt from working in the restaurant, I have also learnt that it is sometimes so much more enjoyable to go and pay the $40 for 4 dishes locally and sit back and enjoy them thoroughly rather then spending 4-6 hours making the base gravies and dishes.

Cheers,
Mark

Hi,

In regards to the missing flavor and the overload of the sense of smell when cooking the dishes, I think unfortunately it is a red herring.

My reason for saying this is that when I started training in the restaurant here making the base gravies, I would start at 2:00pm, cutting onions for the first hour, then making the gravies for the next 3 hours.

Around 6:00pm things start getting busy and depending upon how much is going on, I will either be grabbing ingredients for the chef or cooking the dishes myself, under his watchful eye. As part of my training the chef would get me to taste the dishes while we were cooking. And I can say that even after standing in a very small shop where there is no separation between the kitchen and the front counter, the dishes tasted perfect and smelt perfect, even after cooking very large amounts in a very confined space.

Admittedly when I got home my wife says I stink of curry and fried samosas etc, but I can't smell it, but I could certainly taste how the curries were supposed to taste, and smell how they were meant to.

The bases are full of spices, no such thing as mixed powder, it is similar in process to Ashoka whereby multiple gravies are made which have a large amount of spices and are then mixed to make different dishes, with only a sprinkle of spices at the cooking stage. Ie for Chicken Tikka Masala, butter gravy is used along with a pinch of black pepper and methi, onion and capsicum, and a little cream. A Rogan Josh is a mix of onion gravy, butter gravy, tamarind, pinch of mace powder and a little sugar and salt. Madras is mustard seeds, curry leaves, chili powder, onion gravy, coconut milk powder and a pinch of salt. Butter Chicken is nothing more then butter gravy, pinch of salt, pinch of garam masala, cream and methi.

As much as I have learnt from working in the restaurant, I have also learnt that it is sometimes so much more enjoyable to go and pay the $40 for 4 dishes locally and sit back and enjoy them thoroughly rather then spending 4-6 hours making the base gravies and dishes.

Cheers,
Mark

No he said there was no butter all. I remember this reply , due to the oddness
ELW

[livo]

ELW, I have this morning done some research on Butter in Butter Chicken. I have looked at around 20 recipes, studied the difference between Murgh Makhani and Chicken Tikka Masala and also actual Indian people's descriptions of the dish. It is completely possible to have Butter Chicken with very little or no butter. One food scientist with 50 years experience actually said that the Makhani word in this dish name is used in the context of the mouth feel of the dish being buttery in texture only and has nothing to do with the use of actual butter. He actually says that a dish containing lots of butter would be unpleasant in it's oiliness.  Mind you others say that is must contain lots of butter.

The common thing is that most contain, cream, yogurt and either ghee or butter and sometimes oil.  I guess like most Indian dishes, there are so many different interpretations that you can call it what ever you wish.  There is a recently posted thread about the 2 Indian sisters cooking this dish on BBC TV and there are some who believe that the dish is CTM. The Indian girls simply say that CTM is just UK Butter Chicken.

The discussion or debate about the difference or similarity within and between each dish will never be resolved one way or the other.  I guess only a person from the UK can say what is actually a proper CTM.

What Masala Mark told you here is completely possible. It is different to the recipe he posted under the thread of the dish name but from memory he was under the guidance of 2 different chefs. One was in lessons and the other he worked for.  This may well explain the difference we see here.

Yesterday morning, I pulled out my notes from the time I used his procedure initially, and I scaled everything down 1/5.  You wouldn't want to go much smaller as it would become micro-cooking, but even with these reduced amounts in 3 gravy / paste preparations you will be having enough to make about 20 - 30 individual dishes.  It is also a lot of work and will take 6 - 10 hours to produce all 3.  Maybe less if you look for similarities and develop shortcuts and do simultaneous preparations.  There are some commonalities in the procedures and ingredients.
'

[haldi]

The Veg Gravy for example is used for vegetarian dishes and contains besides a different spice mix, some whole seeds, (cumin, mustard, kalongi, fenugreek, fennel seeds) which are added at the start, along with some other whole spices. This adds a different depth of flavor as there is no meat/chicken stock added to the final dishes.

this offers some hope for me
Most of the curries I cook are veggie
I've not made a base with this combination of spices
I also note that fenugreek is amongst them
We were discussing that missing spice in another thread
Also fennel is there, that gives an aniseed flavour
Star Anise was  mentioned as a missing spice for a madras recipe, some pages back